ERP 085: How To Deal With Cultural Issues In Relationship [Transcript]
ERP 085: How To Deal With Cultural Issues In Relationship [Transcript]
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Welcome to The Empowered Relationship Podcast, helping you turn relationship challenges into opportunities and setting you up for relationship success. Your host, Dr. Jessica Higgins, is a licensed psychologist and relationship coach who shares valuable tips, tools and resources for you to dramatically improve your relationship.
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Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 85, How To Deal With Cultural Issues In Relationship. I’ll be answering a listener’s question today, but before we get started, I just want to take a moment and just say how much I appreciate spending this time with you talking about relationship, and how it challenges us and requires us, asks us to grow. The whole purpose of this show is to invest in the quality of our relationships. Also, developing our inner world, our personal growth as we evolve.
If you’ve been listening to my show, you know that I will at times interview relationship couples experts, I will answer your questions (as I’m doing today) submitted through e-mail, and then I also will do live coaching on the show. Then I also will bring you topics that I find important either from my training, my education, or through my work. Sometimes in my couples sessions there will be a common problem or issue that I hear people talking about, so I will create a podcast episode on that.
I am encouraging to hear from you, to create a sense of community, so if you have a topic that you would like me to create a podcast episode on, or if you have someone that you follow in the couple’s relationship field and you would be interested in my interviewing them on this show, please give me a nudge, let me know. Say, “I’d love to hear an interview with this person, and perhaps recommend them.” I would love to hear that.
Then if you would also like to be on this show and receive live, laser coaching with me, you can find all the ways to reach me on my website, which is DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Contact and you can find the ways to reach me there.
Today’s episode – again, I am answering a listener’s question, and the title of today’s episode, episode 85 is How To Deal With Cultural Issues In Relationship. This listener would like to remain anonymous. She writes:
“After searching the web for answers and finding nothing closely related to the situation at hand in our family, I thought perhaps you would provide some great insight on the issue. I have four adult children. One son who is 32 and three daughters (26, 25, 25). The issue is the following, and involves only my daughters and their boyfriends.
Ever since my daughters have begun dating as young adult women, their relationships have become so complex, sometimes broken with the added element of having boyfriends in the picture. What happens is the boyfriends tend to get involved in sister-to-sister conversations, events, disagreements, and it compounds the issue and affects the whole family dynamic; it especially affects their sister-to-sister relationship, trust, and loyalty. When the girls were little or even teenagers, they were protective of each other, took care of each other, and had a lot of fun in family times. Now, with the boyfriends in the picture, it’s seemingly tearing their relationships apart with distrust, disrespect and creating distance between them as sisters.
My girls sometimes come to me individually with complaints or ask for my opinion/insight, but as hard as I try to be impartial and objective, my input has not been fruitful. I am hoping you could provide some suggestions.
As a Latino family, we tend to be very tight-knit, versus individualistic. My daughters’ boyfriends are Caucasian and their families tend to be more individualistic, where their family involvement in the relationship has not been that much of an issue. Not sure if the cultural element is actually that significant or not, just thought I would mention it.
It’s hard for me to believe that I could not find any information on this topic on the web, as I don’t think this dynamic is highly unusual. I am hoping that you can provide some suggestions on this topic, as I highly respect the wise and insightful advice that you offer on your podcasts. Please help!
First of all, I just wanna say thank you, listener, so much for submitting this question. I think it is extremely relevant, and I think it is relatively common, and I find it particularly interesting that this was on my docket for this week, giving the recent Unites States presidential election.
For those of you that are Americans, or those of you that are following the current events in America, many people have a range of emotions and I think it’s pretty fair to say very divided in perspective. I think this affects us nationally, globally, but also extremely personally. There are families, loved ones and couples who are extremely divided on the issues at hand, whether or not it’s social issues, environmental issues, fiscal issues, system issues… There are a lot of things that are evoking a tremendous amount of conviction in what these issues stand for. So it’s interesting that this is a listener’s question that I’ve had on my docket for a few weeks, and this is the one I’m focusing on today.
I’m hoping that the things that I’m commenting on will help not only in this listener’s life, but also in all of our lives. I experienced this, and I know many people experienced some difference in culture, in beliefs, in values perspective, and that’s difficult to negotiate.
I also am aware that there’s a lot of wounding, a lot of sensitivity, a lot of history that informs our current state, whether or not we’re talking nationally or even in our intimate relationships, the family. So as I’m talking, I would love to include you – if you have a difference of opinion or if you have something that you wanna contribute, I encourage you to comment on the show notes, let me know what you’re thinking and chime in. I would love for this to be a more full, rich dialogue. If you have anything to contribute, I would welcome that.
Number one, I wanna invite the sense of evaluating the approach. Sometimes systems that are in place break down or no longer serve us. This can happen for a lot of reasons. We see it everywhere – we see it in technology… Things are evolving and developing, and we have new inventions, whether or not it’s electricity, or whatever. We’re moving the needle in our own development personally, relationally and in pretty much any arena.
So when we look at current systems, we look at tradition, there is a value of being able to lean on that, lean on the structure and the stability and the consistency of that. If we look at this woman’s family, there has been a way of operating. When the kids were little, it was almost its own culture. There was a family culture, and everybody operated within that. Then once children become adult, then they essentially become looking at their own ways of operating and how they wanna negotiate their lives, and then as these young women are going to be thinking about possibly creating their own family.
So we look at what we’ve known, and we can say anything that we’ve known, we can call that tradition. And when we start to question or we start to add in other elements that might differ – we might say differences, diversity – it adds a level of richness, fullness, it’s more dynamic, yet it’s also more complicated. It’s not the same, so it’s not as streamlined; it’s not just something we can flow with and not question.
Adding differences or adding new elements requires some work to integrate it. If you’re managing a team, and you’re a leader in your work industry and you have people that have different skillsets and different ways of thinking, it’s gonna add a level of complexity. You wanna know how to lead all of them, how to utilize their strengths, but also understand they maybe have certain weaknesses, and how the team can be strongest with these different people.
There is research that shows that if you have people feeling safe enough to add in a different perspective, that it actually makes the team that much smarter, and more innovative and creative, and offer new insights that can really evolve the team’s productivity and results. Whereas when there is this thing where people have to think in the same way, while someone might have a different perspective to add that could actually be really beneficial, they may not feel comfortable to bring it up. It’s this kind of group think – everybody thinks the same way.
The point I’m trying to make here is that in some ways it’s easier to have shared values, think the same way, have a similar approach, and have the same goals. And when we add in different elements, it can add a richness and a dynamic nature that’s beneficial, but can be more complicated and take a little more work. It asks us to evaluate, “Okay, what have we known, what have we done? How does this continue to help us and serve us? What needs changing? What is not working?” It asks us to look at maybe creating a new way of operating; evaluating what works and looking at what doesn’t work.
This can be incredibly emotional for a lot of reasons. It’s painful, there’s grief… If I’m thinking about this mom who has felt this family bond and this unity that’s really cohesive, and to see this playing out with her daughters, there’s all this discord – that can feel really disruptive and scary, but also a grieving of no longer having that sense of cohesion. There’s a grief of even maybe what she imagined these years looking like, and how these sisters would maybe be supporting each other and choosing partners, and creating this extended family that is really beautiful… Grieving what she imagined to be happening at this point.
So it requires this sense of letting go of what we expected or imagined or hoped for, and be open. This openness is often scary. There is an unknown to it. There’s not this solid foundation that is “I’m taking a step forward, I know what’s gonna be underneath my feet.” The unknown can be incredibly scary. It’s typical, and there’s classic sayings around this – I don’t have one at hand, but it’s very typical for people to choose something that’s familiar and maybe painful and maybe even doesn’t work for them, but it’s familiar, rather than the unknown and possibility of something that’s better.
Yesterday I went to yoga and my heart was just feeling heavy with all of the emotions that I was experiencing, but also just nationally where we’re at, and I was feeling these feelings of grief and that sense of fear of the unknown. It reminded me of times where I have experienced loss or a breakup, and not knowing what to expect. I’m gonna talk about how to navigate that in a few moments, but just to honor the process, and sometimes to meet that… Meet that with a sense of sensitivity and presence – to not rush through it, but just to recognize how tender and what emotions are operating.
The other thing that’s really difficult when we evaluate an approach and we’re contemplating trying something new, it adds this level of stress. For the listener that posed this question, I did find an article that you might find helpful, and it’s less about extended family but it’s more about relationships. The title is The Relationship Experience of Latina/-o-White Couples by Dana L. Nixon.
In this article she cites research that talks about the interethnic couples experience more stress. The interethnic couples are basically each partner comes from a different ethnic background, and she’s looking particularly at Latina/Latino white couples. She talks about them having a higher frequency of divorce, and are more likely to experience the stress due to social and family disapproval, where they lack the support and they have to justify the reasons of wanting to be together, where they say a monoethnic, meaning people from the same ethnic background, do not have to justify the reasons of being together to their family and friends.
That’s just one aspect of stress, but again, if we look at creating a new system and we’re adding different aspects, it’s gonna feel more complicated. It’s going against what’s been known, and that’s gonna have some backlash at times. People who are holding to the monoethnic don’t understand, and there’s some questioning, so it’s going against what’s been known, and that can be the sense of carving your own path, which can be difficult. Anytime you go hiking, it’s way easier to follow a path that’s already carved and that’s been walked millions of times, versus carving your new path, having to bushwhack and create your own path.
Now, I don’t think that it’s that extreme, because I do think interethnic/interracial couples have been existing for many years; in terms of cultural norms it’s more accepted now than it has been, but still not as widely accepted as monoethnic, monoracial couples.
Just to reiterate here, I’m just adding to the fact that this is not the easier road, but that it does have benefits even though it is a little more complex.
One of the other things I’ll say here is that when the system, where what’s known isn’t serving you or you’re wanting something different, it requires a level of ownership. Again, we can’t just lean on, take for granted and ride the wave of what is. It’s almost like we have to start thinking for ourselves. We start to have to evaluate and create something new for ourselves that works. Sometimes it’s not realistic to do this in every arena – that could be exhausting – but maybe there are particular arenas that you really care about and wanna invest in developing and evolving for yourself.
This is where people try to be more aware, try to be more conscious, try to be more intentional. These are all words that look at evaluating and choosing, rather than going with the default.
I bumped up against this when I was in my twenties. I was experiencing some health concern – it wasn’t anything super life-threatening, but it was something really uncomfortable. It had to do with my digestion; I wasn’t sure if I had irritable bowel syndrome, I didn’t know what was going on. It ended up being just stress. I was running a team program at the time and had developed it from nothing, and I was giving it my all, and I don’t think I was doing the best job sleeping… I would go hours without eating, and I just was running up against the self-care practice. I had to learn how to do my own self-care, which was the end of the story, but I had so many symptoms that were like gassiness – without getting too graphic here, nothing really gross. I was just pretty uncomfortable, so I went to a traditional medical doctor, and they really didn’t have a lot to offer me as far as what was going on, as diagnosis, prognosis.
Then I searched out some alternative medicine and spent thousands and thousands of dollars and I didn’t even think that that really helped that much… I went to acupuncture; I did get some real help there. I went to a nutritional supplemental person… Anyway, I think those things maybe helped a little bit all of them, but at the end of the day I think it ended up being my self-care. What I’m trying to articulate here in this brief little recap of an experience that I had was that my traditional mindset was “I go to the doctor, they tell me what’s wrong, and then they tell me what my treatment is, and it’s that easy.” Well, it wasn’t that easy.
I was pretty young at the time, so I had to look at, okay, this was a system or this was an approach that I was expecting, and it wasn’t working for me. I had to almost take my own ownership and be the driver in my own health there. I had given the power to the medical doctor to tell me what was wrong, given their training and expertise, and as there’s a lot of truth and value to that, but it maybe isn’t a hundred percent across the board. I had to learn that. There’s some ownership in my own healthcare that’s needed in that situation.
All of this is under number one, which is Evaluate The Approach. The systems may not be serving any longer, so evaluate that. Then, there might be emotions involved, that it can be more complex, and it might require some intentionality and ownership to navigate and be the driver of that.
Number two – Engage In Collaboration. This is a bigger concept that in my couples curriculum, my relationship curriculum I talk more about, but I’ll briefly say collaboration works best when we hold space for the other party having value, and we give value to ourselves. We have the intention of seeking to understand, to be respectful, to acknowledge differences, and there’s a level of intention of love. We wanna be in that heart space of holding the intention of connection, of collaboration; we wanna work together, we wanna find a way that works for all of us, and there might be some patience needed. This might take a little more time, it might be a little more effort, and it might actually be worth it in the long run.
So just being mindful when we engage in collaboration, what’s your intention? Is your intention to try to prove somebody wrong, trying to out somebody, trying to provide evidence to change their mind? All of that agenda is usually felt in relationship. It’s easy to wanna blame, it’s easy to feel threatened and think that someone’s way is the problem. And again, I wanna remind you that that’s usually a path towards divide. When I was thinking about this listener’s question, I was just hearing family divide. There’s this dividedness, and that doesn’t feel collaborative, that doesn’t feel honoring of all the different moving parts.
One of my suggestions underneath this engage and collaboration is being aware of your intention, really resetting — if at any point you feel like you’ve lost your way a little bit or lost your intention, which is completely natural and normal, how to reset, how to start anew in any moment. You have that right to bow out, take whatever time you need to reset, and come from that intention; that might be an over and over and over again process.
With the intention of connection, we are more primed to understand. We are more interested, we are more willing to suspend a judgment and be a little bit more available to putting ourselves in their shoes, and really understanding their world. With your daughters, I wanna say they’re in the developmental stage of intimacy versus isolation. One of their things is partnering; they’re very focused on – probably, I don’t know – the developmental stage of seeking partnership, choosing a mate, choosing a partner, a significant other.
Part of the process of coming into young adulthood is also differentiating, which means “Okay, I was a part of this family, and there is all the rules and values and understandings and implicit agreements, everything that comes from that. But as I grow into my own adult person, I differentiate from my parents, from my family of origin. I am a different person”, and hopefully a lot of what you’ve instilled in them makes the cut, so to speak. But there is a sense of cutting the cords. This might sound like a very Western perspective, but there is this developmental process of “Who am I as an adult? Who do I wanna be?” and “I am my own person, even within the landscape of this larger family.” So there is a developmental process of coming into adulthood that requires us to question what we’ve been taught, what is important to us, and essentially how we wanna live.
So with your daughters, not only are they in the process of partnering and really creating intimacy in their life, they’re also in the process of differentiating who they’re gonna be as adults in their lives, and there’s also the added component here of the cultural identity development. I have a couple models that are pretty classic (I will put them in the show notes) and that I’m gonna briefly mention here. There is the Ferdman and Gallegos Model of Latino Identity Development, and there’s also the Helms’ White Racial Identity Development Model.
In both of these models, they’re talking about the process of cultural identity, racial identity. If it’s helpful, I’ll briefly mention them here. For the Latino cultural identity, it’s basically starting with very white identified – individuals that identify as white, and the views, values and beliefs as such.
The undifferentiated/denial stage is individuals claim a colorblind mentality and race is not important. Next, Latino as other – this is where individuals who hold no stake in a subgroup, often caused by the uncertainty of his/her heritage. Next is subgroup-identified – individuals have strong identification with a specific subgroup within the Latino culture, a belief that all other subgroups are subordinate. Next is Latino-identified – individuals believe race is fluid and society is a dualistic construction of race. Next is Latino-integrated – individuals understand our society in terms of race and identify with the larger Latino community.
This is the six orientations that the model for the Latino Identity Development. For the Helms’ White Racial Identity Development Model it starts with contact status, which is oblivious to and unaware of racism. Number two is disintegration status, which is conflict over irresolvable racial and moral dilemmas. Number three, Reintegration status, which is regression to white superiority and minority inferiority. Number four is pseudo-independence status, which is painful or insightful in counter encounter or event that jars the person from the reintegration status (the stage right before). Number five is immersion/emersion status – an increasing willingness to confront one’s own biases. Number six is autonomy status – values diversity, and is no longer fearful, intimidated or uncomfortable with discussions of race and is active in seeking interracial experiences.
I offer these two racial/ethnic identity developmental models as a reference tool. I’ll also put on the show notes one more that’s just an overarching racial/cultural identity developmental model that’s not specific to a racial/ethnic group. That could just be another reference tool.
Why I think this is helpful is again, with the intention of connection and seeking to understand, you might be able to find your daughters, perhaps your boyfriends, on this spectrum. Looking at where might they be in their cultural/racial identity and their development; how do they navigate ethnic/cultural differences?
This conversation, if we can seek to understand and be informed about some of the research and about what is often the case, then we’re gonna be that much more sensitive to what somebody might be going through and their perspective, and again, that patience that I talked about – this might be a process; they might be still not where you would want them to be.
The other thing I’ll just briefly note – if you are feeling really concerned, I think one nice little assessment tool, is like “How are they doing overall?” In their health, in their career, friendships, their physical health, their emotional health, do they seem happy? And again, when we enter into dialogue with someone else, if we can see that they’re thriving, that might give us a little bit more indication that there are some things working for them. We wanna really respect that and be honoring of that, and get curious about that.
Again, all of this is to set the stage so that intention, the seeking to understand around what they’re dealing with, what’s on their plate, as well as considering your own place, your own quick check around “Where am I? Am I thriving? Do I have places of insecurity that might be coloring the view that I have?” This is for all of us.
Then we wanna enter into the invitation of dialogue. Maybe meeting with your daughters individually and talking about some of these things that you’re noticing, [unintelligible 00:33:19.15] that you are the person that’s offering support, but just like “Hey, I’ve been wondering about these things. The difference between our family having a preference for this sense of bond, togetherness and cohesion and family values, how that fits with dating someone that’s much more individualistic and tends to promote and prefer a more individualistic approach – what is that like? Have you noticed that?” and bringing it to awareness and having a conversation about that. “How might that impact us as a family, as a whole, or your relationship with your sisters?” Then, depending on that, you may even wanna have a conversation with all three of your daughters.
Then, perhaps even having a conversation with them and their boyfriends. If they’re really committed – I don’t know how committed each of their daughters are to their respective boyfriends, but it they’re gonna enter into the family and their relationships are pretty serious… I mean, it sounds pretty crazy for me to even suggest to have this big family meeting; if they’re gonna be part of the family, how do you guys wanna be together? How do you wanna support each other?
My last point underneath this bigger topic of engaging in collaboration is support. Each person has some way that they wanna feel supported. Each couple has maybe certain boundaries and certain ways that they want to connect and engage, and then there’s this larger extended family that has been in existence. There’s a lineage of family values, close bonds, nurturing those relationships. Do we wanna still foster that? It’s beautiful. How do we maintain the health of the family values of our larger extended family? These types of conversations could provide some level of creativity, because you’re adding in different elements. It’s asking for the current way of being to grow. You’re adding in these three, white Caucasian men into the bigger family unit, and if we’re really gonna include and be inclusive, but also maintain the health, there’s an asking of evolving it. So how do we do this that’s honoring? This is, again, not an easy process.
Essentially, this is asking us to create a new approach, which I’ve been kind of talking about a little bit, so my number three point here is creating a new approach. Whether or not you’re in a relationship with someone who thinks differently than you – let’s say you just voted in America two different ways; one voted for Donald Trump, one voted for Hillary Clinton, and then the couple is experiencing very different approaches there. Or whether or not you come from different ethnic backgrounds, racial backgrounds, maybe you come from different parts of the country, or maybe you have an international relationship, where you come from totally different countries… So it asks the couple to create a new, almost culture for the couple. You’re blending something together that’s creating something new. One person could dominate and one person just joins the other culture and is immersed in that, and they kind of lose their ethnic/racial identity and they just become part of this other person’s racial/ethnic identity, or vice versa. Or if you have two people that wanna keep their identity, then it’s asking for the couple unit, or in this case for this listener’s question, the larger family unit – it asks to create something new.
One thing that I wanna suggest is looking at values. When we look at family in particular, we’re looking at family values versus independence. The personhood and the familyhood. But we’ll talk about gender roles, we’ll talk about power, we’ll talk about the role of the extended family.
When we look at our values specific to family, these are some of the things to consider, but then when we look about the life we’re creating together, how we spend money, there’s endless things. So this is part of the curriculum that I have in my program – identifying some of these expectations, some of our core beliefs, our values and ultimately what we’re wanting to create in our relationship. I help people navigate that train.
Regardless of how you develop and how you have these conversations, you’re gonna be essentially creating something new together, and it is important to look at your values, your preferences, your expectations. A couple things from Dana Nixon’s article, The Relationship Experience of Latina/-o-White Couples, she talks about this concept of what I think I’m talking about already, which is this couple culture identity. It’s almost this sense of sharing cultures is having a culture that the couple has co-constructed. Maybe each partner brings a recipe that’s a traditional dish from their culture, and then both dishes become a part of their couple tradition. So it’s no longer just one person’s culture, it’s something that now they have tradition around. “Maybe on this holiday we cook this, and on this holiday we cook that.” You’re basically co-creating your couple culture and your couple identity.
Again, this is something that can be really dynamic and rich, because if you have this inter-ethnic couple identity that you come from different backgrounds and that you’re merging it together in a positive way, whether or not it’s language or food or beliefs or values or experiences, it’s this blending of “We’re stronger together, bringing this richness and fullness from our different backgrounds.”
In Nixon’s article, she gave a reference to some coping strategies, and this comes from a research article that she cites. I think that this can be helpful across the board. It has to do with being flexible, having some level of flexibility – I think I’ve spoken about this already, around being interested, maybe open-minded, then having a sense of humor, a sense of lightness, taking the cultural perspective of the other person… I think about these white men that are dating your daughters and just what they might be feeling or thinking. I don’t know – are they feeling intimidated by this close family bond? Do they feel like they have to make their mark? I’m just guessing, I have no idea. But it’s worth entertaining… This is a coping strategy that adds positive resiliency to the situation, when we can see each other’s perspective.
Then also taking time to recognize the similarities. We want to feel love, we want to feel connection, we wanna feel play, we wanna have fun together, we are healthy, and whatever the similarities are that you can identify. And then also having this level of appreciation, really seeing the strength of the culture, of the person and what they bring, the strengths that that perspective offers. What does it allow them to do in their life, what does it allow them to do in the world, and can there be value and appreciation and acknowledgment around that? And again, this idea that it doesn’t have to be threatening. That if we can give space for different perspectives, and while they might not line up or seem to line up, that there’s a way that they could fit really beautifully, that makes the whole stronger.
The last point that I’ll leave you with here today is this number four, which is Believing In Good. That we sometimes are on the path of transformation, of development and evolution. We’re all growing… This could be in a micro way or a macro way, however we look at this. But part of growing is messy. Sometimes part of the development is challenging, and even when we think of transformation there’s this concept of going through the fire to be transformed, to get to the other side. It’s like an initiative, or an initiation. And it’s one of the hardest things to do, I think; when everything looks like a mess, to believe in goodness, to believe in the process. It’s especially hard when it’s unknown, when we don’t know what’s on the other side.
It’s easy to run a marathon, because you’re gonna be able to endure the discomfort and the pain and the struggle, because you know passing that finish line is gonna feel worth it. There’s an end in mind that you can visualize. So when you have a vision of what you want and you believe in the process of getting there, it makes enduring the difficulty easier. This is where all the resilience and the grit — there’s all these people talking about how to increase your resiliency or have grit, and this is how to endure the pain along the way, whether or not you’re an athlete or you’re pursuing some type of business success or relational challenges and you’re wanting to get to a place of healing and wholeness and connectedness. Sometimes what we endure… We could give up. We could say, “I don’t wanna do this. I bow out”, or we could ignore it, avoid it, push it under the rug, or just fight with it; wanting to be different, not accept that this is hard and try to keep something, hold to your ways.
I guess this last invitation is just to perhaps put your mind around the possibility that there is good in the current circumstance, and that this is possibly the path for transformation. What’s to come is possibly better than you could have ever imagined. In recap, the points that I have mentioned here today are:
1. Evaluate the approach
2. Engage in collaboration
3. Create a new approach, or even just give space for a new approach
4. Believe in good.
I would love to hear your input if you have any thoughts about things that I have mentioned today or things you wanna contribute to the conversation; you can do so by visiting my website, which is DrJessicaHiggins.com. You can post a comment on the show notes page, and you can do that by visiting my website, which is DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast, find the most recent episode there at the top – again, this is episode 85, How To Deal With Cultural Issues In Relationship – and you can scroll down to the bottom and post a comment. I would love to hear from you.
As well, if you would like the article that I’ve mentioned, and I have one other article to reference as well, and you can find that at the bottom where it says Mentioned.
Thank you so much for spending this time with me. I realize that these issues can bring up a lot of emotions, can be very tender and are difficult to confront. I have a deep regard for multiculturalism, social justice and just differences in relationship, as you’ve heard me talk about if you’ve listened to my podcast. And I do very much believe in the process of evolving and transforming our way of relating to a win/win and a much more collaborative way of being together, where we can all feel honored, valued, and work together efficiently and effectively.
So again, reach out to me if you have any comment, and until next time, I hope you take great care.
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