ERP 137: How To Make Space For Sex In Your Relationship [TRANSCRIPT]

Topic: Ways to spice up your relationship sexually

ERP 137: How To Make Space For Sex In Your Relationship

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Welcome to The Empowered Relationship Podcast, helping you turn relationship challenges into opportunities and setting you up for relationship success. Your host, Dr. Jessica Higgins, is a licensed psychologist and relationship coach who shares valuable tips, tools and resources for you to dramatically improve your relationship.

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Hi, thank you for joining today’s podcast episode. Today’s episode is 137, How To Make Space For Sex In Your Relationship, With Kate Moyle. It has been a couple weeks since I have published an episode. Those of you that are consistent listeners or perhaps are on my e-mail list may have heard about the plethora of technology issues that I have endured over I’d say the last six weeks, and I’m happy to say that the systems of that are resolved. There’s a few final pieces that are getting worked out, but I feel like I am back up and running, and I just appreciate your patience if you’ve been waiting for the latest episode.

If you want access to today’s show notes, the transcript or any other episodes, you can find those listed on my website, which is DrJessicaHiggins.com. You can find the Podcast page and all of the episodes there.

If you will join me in just taking a moment to center our focus to relationship, and that the conversations that happen on the Empowered Relationship Podcast are intended to support the path of long-term intimacy. As we talk about on this show, there’s a range of what we can experience in a long-term intimate relationship. We might feel triggered and challenged, and fear, and threat, and really that that’s an opportunity to help us grow and deepen in our connection. It does take work and it does take doing things differently, and I give you a lot of tools and recommendations and suggestions on the show of how to work with some of that difficult upset.

Then we also will experience joy, and love, and ecstasy in our bond, and that some of us feel that we reach a capacity, we reach a threshold of what we’ve known, and that can also challenge us in a positive way, that we can actually receive more love than we’ve known before… And also, there is a myriad of experiences in between. I like to think of this as a full spectrum experience, and that when we look at that middle way, that middle ground, that often we are attending to the stability, the security and the safety of relating to one another on the path of long-lasting intimacy.

On the Empowered Relationship Podcast I often give you tips, tools and suggestions in regards to certain topics that many couples face, that can be challenging, or just we can be really uninformed about. I also interview other experts in the field and I also answer listeners’ questions.

Today’s interview is slightly different in that she’s referencing a service and product, and I want you guys to know I receive no affiliate commission or kickback for this product. I just believe that the service they’re offering does really support and help couples nurture their bond. Let’s get started with today’s interview.

Kate Moyle is an Accredited Psychosexual & Relationship Therapist and In House Expert and Partner at Pillow App for Couples. Pillow helps busy couples to fit intimacy into their lives in a convenient and connecting way, by providing audio-guided intimacy episodes that focus on sensual touch, communication, eye-contact and other basic forms of intimacy… Kate is passionate about having open, honest and realistic conversations about sex, relationships and intimacy in order to help those she works with and the thousands that have downloaded Pillow get closer to achieving the relationships that they want.

 

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Kate, thank you for joining us today.

Kate Moyle: Thank you so much for having me on, Jessica.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: So to start with — for the people that are not familiar with Pillow or your work, can you talk a little bit about your story, just for us to get a chance to know you a little bit?

Kate Moyle: Yeah, absolutely. So I suppose starting with what a psychosexual therapist is is probably a good place. Basically, what I provide as a psychosexual therapist is a safe space and a talking therapy for people who are struggling with any issues around sex and sexuality. It’s not limited to dealing with certain problems, but it offers the kind of space that says “It’s okay to talk about sex here.” So I am a talking therapist, but trained in working specifically with sex, sexual issues, couples, relationships, intimacy… That can cover anything from sexual dysfunctions to sexual anxieties, to couples starting to have sex, to people starting to conceive, or to get their sex lives back after having children, to questioning sexuality, to problems with intimacy or just difficulty connecting with people… Really, the list is endless. As we know, sexuality is an integrated part of our lives, and not a kind of separate existence… So it’s about how sex plays that role in our lives and how that affects us.

The other part of that, I suppose, is Pillow, which is a platform for couples to access audio-guided expert-written intimacy episodes. The idea is that we have been working with couples experts who are working with people’s relationships every day, and whether they’re therapists, they’re running workshops, they’re writing books, they’re writing blogs, running podcasts and putting their expert content into a format which anyone can get a hold of from their homes and use to make them feel closer to each other and spend quality time together.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Nice, I love that. You were telling me just as we were chatting before starting this interview that you kind of had a professional lead into this. Is there anything you wanna share about what got you passionate about this particular topic?

Kate Moyle: Yeah, I mean… I really wanted to be a psychologist. As early as I can remember, I’ve always been fascinated by people and relationships and how people work, and I was studying psychology and wrote a dissertation project which was about sexual partners, and it all just kind of fell into place for me actually, and I kind of realized that I didn’t have a problem asking the difficult questions, I didn’t have a problem talking about the subjects that everybody else kind of seemed to be skirting around or not wanting to get involved in… But the importance of it was so far-reaching. Just the fact that people weren’t wanting to talk about sex and weren’t wanting to talk about sexual problems meant then if they were talking for example to their children, that they weren’t approaching it with an open, accessible way of starting that conversation.

Also, it was a realization that if you can help people to tackle sexual problems head-on, that it doesn’t just help them, but it helps the people around them, it helps their families, it helps potentially save a relationship or end a relationship which isn’t working… But I never really understood this stigma and taboo around sex and why it held such a different space to everything else in our lives, even though it’s such an integral part of it.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. And I would love to hear if you’re open to sharing how you define intimacy, because – or even just sexuality first, because one of the ways that I’ve framed sexuality (and I think you’re speaking to it) is that it’s for each individual a very integral part of their experience, and that we have a choice in who we choose to engage with and say yes to sharing in that sexual connection, but ultimately our individual sexuality is part of our livelihood and our vitality, and to be aware of and conscious of and nurturing the health of that. But if you wouldn’t mind talking a little bit about how you frame sexuality and then how it fits with intimacy… I would love to get kind of an orientation there.

Kate Moyle: Yeah, and I think sexuality is about the role that how we engage with sex plays in our lives. Sex is way more than something we just do; it’s not an act, it’s what it means to us, it’s the meaning that it holds, it’s how we interact with it. Even people that, for example, identify themselves as asexual or that they don’t have any sexual inclinations, they’re still — that sexuality or the meaning that they are getting from having that definition of how they position themselves is still offering them something.

So it’s really about understanding kind of the role that sex as a definition plays in people’s lives, and how and what it means to that individual. And what we see is that individuals who are for example in a relationship together, whether that’s two people or more than two people, have completely different definitions of sexuality and intimacy, and what we understand most commonly to mean sexuality tends to be sexual preference a lot of the time. So when people talk about sexuality, they’re often talking about being heterosexual or homosexual or bisexual, whereas actually we’re looking at it from a more inclusive angle, which is about my definition of sex as a person.

I suppose where that links to intimacy is a really interesting question, because I believe that you can have sex without intimacy and intimacy without sex, so the two things are not the same, they don’t have the same meaning… But lots of people think that they do, lots of people will say “Okay, well I feel like my relationship isn’t working because we’re not having a certain amount of sex”, but if you talk to them about their relationship, it feels really good, they feel really intimate, they feel really close to each other, and what they are doing is using sex as a measure of how healthy or good they feel like their relationship is, and that’s not always the right or necessary way to measure it, but it’s socially or culturally how lots of people check on the health of their relationship.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I like it. I like, first of all, that you’re really opening up the definition of sexuality to be super inclusive, so that people really have a lot of permission and freedom to define that for themselves; I think that’s really beautiful. And I imagine you guys also have to take some stance, especially as a guide – as a therapist, or even as a platform… You guys have your own way in which you’re framing sexuality, or is that too specific of a question?

Kate Moyle: It’s just more about how we’re not saying “This is the definition of sexuality and this is what you should prescribe to.” As a platform, with Pillow, what we’ve been doing is working with lots of different experts, and every expert brings their own slang, their own episode, their own idea. What we’re saying to couples is if you come to the platform and use it or use the app or listen to an episode, you get to choose what appeals to you; you get to choose what feels good. We’re not saying “This is what you need to make your relationship better” or we’re not saying “We prescribe this.” We’re saying “Okay, well there could be something that…” — so one of the episodes might be based on communication, talking, complementing. A couple could find that really easy, but they could find more physical, touch-based exercises really hard. That is individual to that couple; it’s not for us to tell them what they should or shouldn’t find more challenging, less challenging, what should feel better.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Absolutely. Okay, so it sounds like you’re really giving people a buffet, or an array of experiences and that everybody is gonna find themselves relating to those exercises differently, depending on themselves as an individual, and also with their partner and within a relationship… So there’s lots of opportunity there.

Kate Moyle: Absolutely. And you know, what we see a lot, as a couples therapist or someone working with couples, what I see a lot is that the point at which people are struggling in relationships is where one partner is looking for one thing and one partner is looking for another. We look at Gary Chapman’s Five Love Languages and we understand how people are communicating in different ways, or trying to get their partner to meet their needs, or trying to meet their partner’s needs… And in relationships we’re not all gonna be wanting the same thing, we’re not all gonna express love in the same way, we’re not gonna feel intimacy in exactly the same form or understand each other perfectly, because we’re not all the same; we all have our own experiences, backgrounds, genetics, and if there’s two people in a relationship and they’re speaking almost different love languages, then the important thing is that we help people to break that down, so they can better understand each other.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and I’m listening to you and I’m reminded of what you were saying initially about what prompted you to get interested in this topic in your dissertation, and that this is obviously sometimes a very intimate, private topic and not everybody feels super comfortable being in open dialogue about, and yet we also are very much exposed to a lot of imagery and storytelling through the way media around sexuality and sexual relationship. So when people, like you’re saying, come into maybe a therapist office with psychosexual issues and wanting to discuss their needs, I find a lot of people will reference gender, around “I’m a guy, I need this” or they have certain expectations based on what they’ve seen even in porn, and in the media. So without this maybe open platform to explore the self, we’re comparing ourselves to what we imagine other people are doing, based on what we observe in our social sphere, and then also in the media, and it sounds like you’re trying to help demystify some of that and really help people get connected to what’s true for them. Am I hearing you right?

Kate Moyle: Yeah, absolutely. And I think a huge part of my job as a psychosexual therapist is to educate, but it’s a huge part of the message we wanted to put behind Pillow, as well. If people are coming in and they’re saying “I feel like less of a man because of this” or “You know, I’m not a good wife because of this”, or “I imagine all my pals are doing this” is another one, or “I don’t think anyone else I know struggles with this problem…” – a lot of the time that is coming from just social narratives, and actually when you break it down and you talk to people, they don’t have a clear idea of where that message comes from; it’s an assumption based on what all men do, or what all women should do. Those can be really difficult for people, because as soon as they feel that they don’t fit into that norm or that social expectation, they then start giving themselves a hard time about it, and what we see that that increases is anxiety about the problem, or social anxiety around performance, or what they do in front of a partner or how they interact with the partner.

I suppose a classic example here would be if a man is struggling with his erections, for example, that he feels that he’s disappointing his partner, or that there is a lot of expectation on him, or it’s just what men do, or “Without that we can’t then have sex, and that’s my fault”, and then there’s a huge amount of pressure put on them to perform. And actually, we know that sex encompasses [unintelligible 00:18:18.17] that doesn’t require an erection; there’s mutual masturbation, there’s touch, there’s play, there’s oral sex… There’s so much a couple could be doing and enjoying, and really enjoying the sensuality and the sensations and the pleasure from… But when they’re highly anxious and highly stressed, that clashes with arousal, then you’re actually more likely to not be able to perform because of the stress that that’s caused.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Absolutely. And what do you feel are some of the helpful offerings that you’re doing in your guidance and therapy that help people be less externally focused or being attached to maybe those expectations or comparisons and gain awareness – because like you said, they might not even be aware that that’s what they’re doing – and then transition into more of attuning to themselves.

Kate Moyle: Yeah, so a lot of what I do is kind of breaking it down. A lot of it is about how people understand sex, so with my clients I will do what I call a history take with all of them, which is where we go through a detailed history of their family history, sexual history, relationship history, and kind of pick out messages that they’ve received along the way, or feelings that they’ve had along the way, and understand what’s going on, what was going on around the context of what was happening at that time, or how they understood things… It’s not that actually these negative messages are always deliberate, it’s that they’ve been given a message by a parent who was given that message by a parent, or… Obviously, you know we have some people that come from really strict backgrounds, or very religious backgrounds where there were certain beliefs about sex or cultural beliefs about sex… But in lots of cases, it’s just that the parents didn’t feel that they had the tools to communicate about sex, so then the topic of sex could never be approached, and it was always considered or felt to be this “Don’t go there” zone/area, if you want to think about it like that.

So understanding where people have their views and their values and their ideas, where they come from, is a big part of my job, breaking that down… And a lot of the time we can see that it makes sense, as strange as that sounds. We can see that where they’ve got to and the belief system that they have is quite logical, and I think that that’s really important to acknowledge. As children or young teenagers, when we’re learning about all of these things we’re just making sense of the world in the way that we know how best to, and if we don’t have that challenge, then we just kind of internalize that view and accept it, and if nobody challenges it then until we’re 29, for example… You know, how were we meant to know if nobody said “Actually, I don’t agree with that”, and we see that, because sex isn’t the kind of topic of conversation which is talked about. So all of this stuff is, I suppose, in a bit of a melting pot.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Absolutely. Do you find in your work that when people start having these conversations, looking at their history and some of the messages and modeling that they’ve absorbed, that they start to question and give themselves more permission and license to challenge or think about what does work for them and maybe what doesn’t work for them? Do you see that that happens?

Kate Moyle: Yeah, definitely, and I think that it’s moving away from a model of “This is what I should be doing” to “This is what I want to do and what feels right and good for me.” But people do need permission to do that a lot of the time, and actually awareness and understanding is the best way for us to start creating that shift in perspective. And when you’re having these conversations out loud, it can be quite interesting to hear yourself say something and you go “Okay, god, that sounds really like my father. I didn’t think I thought that” or “I didn’t really realize where that view had come from before.”

Essentially, what we are doing is looking at the way that something’s been built or put together, kind of maybe taking a few of the pieces out, moving them around and rebuilding or restructuring, changing people’s blueprint about their ideas, about how they’ve put together this model of sex, and actually can we redesign it to fit them better?

Dr. Jessica Higgins: I really like that. Kate, as you were talking I’m even imagining that this process of open dialogue gives more space for the individual to fluctuate in a given day or in a given week, or month or year; we all go through seasons, and sometimes we’ll want different things, or possibly even the developmental process of the relationship. Sometimes the sex is super erotic, and sometimes it’s very tender and loving, other times it’s very static and maybe even spiritual, right? In the individuals there are fluctuations of wanting–

Kate Moyle: Different types of this.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah.

Kate Moyle: Yeah, and I think if people feel more confident and comfortable in that basic foundation of what sex means to them, the role sex has to them, how they want to have sex, and they feel they’re making informed choices about their sex lives, that means that they can be more fluid, that they can try more things, because that general level of discomfort isn’t there to limit them.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. Now, do you find that the education does give people a sense of what to expect in maybe a long-term relationship? Because one of the things that you gave me as a potential question is around sexless relationships, right? People have this notion of “Well, we’ve been married for 20+ years and it’s not like it used to be…” So sometimes people do look to education as a form of “normally happens” for people; not that it is what should happen, but it does guide people a little bit. I guess I’m interested in what you would say to that.

Kate Moyle: Yeah, and I think Esther Perel is the queen of talking about this, because what she advocates is basically “Why would you just go along with the narrative, which is people in long-term relationships have less sex and intimacy, when you can rebel against it and actually nurture your relationship and make an effort and inject that sexuality back into it?” And again, it’s just about reframing, it’s about a different way of thinking about it. If we just accept that the common story is in long-term relationships you have less sex the longer the relationship continues for, then what you’re doing is just accepting something that doesn’t necessarily need to be accepted, or something that you both might like to do something about; you both might like to keep your sex life more alive, you both might like more intimacy. But what that then takes is one of you or both of you to suggest that, or to suggest pushing back against that idea of “Oh, this is what everybody else is doing, so I guess it must be okay.”

I suppose what we see with couples is one partner might try and do that and the other doesn’t want to, and that’s where we find difficulties. But there’s no reason that people should have less sex the longer a relationship is, when actually lots of people report having more satisfying sex when they’re in long-term relationships because it’s better quality, or they know that they enjoy their partner’s bodies, they know about each other more, they know about what they like, they enjoy the sensations of touch, they’ve both got a better idea of their pleasure, they feel more comfortable with each other, or more able to be more vulnerable or more emotionally open. So we just have to sometimes think about why we’re doing what we’re doing, and that’s where the education part of it comes in.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. Do you have any thoughts about if one partner is more interested and the other isn’t as engaged or isn’t as interested?

Kate Moyle: Yeah, and it’s a really common problem and it’s a really common thing that we see with couples. The reality of the situation is it’s not something really that even changes or deteriorates, but very rarely are couples exactly sexually matched, or come into a relationship or even start a relationship with the same levels of libido or desire. It’s about working out how to connect; if you feel more comfortable with each other, we’re looking at things like connection, things like more contact, things like nurturing the relationship, investing in the relationship.

The sex feels easier where there’s less pressure. The pressure tends to happen when there’s a sense of “Okay, we haven’t had sex for a month, so we need to have sex, as a tick box exercise, just to make sure that we’ve done it this month.” That tends to be not satisfying for couples as well. Both partners can report feeling pretty unsatisfied by that, whereas actually, I suppose – and this links back to why we made Pillow – it could be something like five minutes of eye contact that would help the couple to feel really connected, or a ten-minute exercise of complementing each other or spending quality time together, with no distractions, no phones, just giving each other their full attention. That might be enough to make them feel closer, and that could roll into something else, whether that’s sexual or not sexual, but it is intimate.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes… And one of the things that I imagine many couples listening to this feel challenged with is just the pace of life.

Kate Moyle: Absolutely.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Can you talk about that a little bit? Just how challenging it is to maybe even prioritize this space that you’re referring to.

Kate Moyle: Yeah, I think it’s incredibly hard for couples in the world that we live in at the moment. 9-to-5 doesn’t necessarily exist anymore. We wake up, our phones are our alarm clocks by our bed, we turn off our phone and we see that we’ve got 20 unread e-mails that have come in overnight, we are already thinking about them by the time we get out of bed, get in the shower; we’re on our way to work, on our phones, we get home from work, we’re on our phones… We’re constantly interrupted and we don’t have that alone time. Technology is a constant third, fourth wheel in every relationship at the moment, and you pile on top of that the pressure that lots of people feel under to work extra hours or work from home, because other people are doing it; the workplace is more competitive. We sit on the sofa and we’ve got the TV on and one person’s on their laptop and one person’s on their phone, so again, we’re missing out on that connection, on those basic forms of intimacy, and it’s non-stop.

There is a lot of pressure for people to do it all, to have it all. I think that that can really weigh down on people… Unfortunately, the things that struggle to get prioritized [unintelligible 00:29:46.08] couple relationships or intimate relationships, because we get home every night and that person is there, so we think “Okay, I don’t need to nurture that, I don’t need to work on that. I need to work on the relationships that aren’t here right now, that are I’m not giving my full attention to. I’ve gotta phone my mom, or check in with that friend, or e-mail my sister.” And we should actually be taking the same approach to the relationships that we see every day, because every day we decide to stay in those relationships, every day we’re making a commitment to stay in those relationships that day… And sadly, some people don’t realize until it’s too late, because their partner feels that they’ve not had any attention, that they haven’t felt desired, that they haven’t felt listened to or heard, and it’s because a lot of the time we’re so distracted by everything else that’s going on.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Do you have anything that you suggest to couples to prioritize or start to create more sacred space, if you will, even for this type of nurturing a relationship?

Kate Moyle: Yeah, I mean, apart from Pillow… [laughs] But yeah, as a therapist, a lot of the time I say to people “Okay, what I’d like you to do is to put technology away.” What really is that important that’s coming in at 8:30 at night on your e-mails? Let’s be honest. And to say “What I want you to do is have a meal together every week and have no technology on. So you’re sitting, facing each other, paying each other your full attention, talking, sharing…”, because technology isn’t just taking your attention, but it’s interrupting the whole time. If you think about the way that phones work nowadays – we get constant notifications, and they’re really distracting, they take your attention away from what you’re doing. When we’re multitasking, we’re actually just switching really quickly between tasks, we’re not actually splitting our attention. So what that means is if you’re in a really nice conversation with your partner and they’re sharing something that they feel is important to them, and your phone beeps and you pick up your phone, essentially what you’ve just said to them is “My phone is more important than what you were saying.” We really want to move away from that.

So actually prescribing kind of technology-free time for couples is really important. I often encourage people to sit opposite each other, so they’re looking at each other a lot more, so there’s a lot more eye contact… Or offering each other a massage, or something like a bath, or sitting down every day, as soon as they’re both at home, and spending five minutes just checking in with each other about how their day was. These aren’t big things, they’re not life-changing, but they are little elements of getting into good habits, or better relationship habits.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes, and I would even say that the collective accumulation of it is life-changing.

Kate Moyle: And even if it’s, you know, “Okay, so on Tuesdays we are gonna get into bed at 10 instead of 10:30, and from 10 until 10:30 we just lie in bed, on our side, looking at each other, talking.” There is no pressure for these connecting moments to be sexual, but there is a lot in those intimate spaces, and human basic desire is to feel special to someone, to feel that we’ve got someone’s full attention. That’s really innate. We think about how mothers and babies bond; firstly, it’s through touch, secondly it’s through eye contact, so those basic forms of intimacy that create hormonal bonding, so the release of things like oxytocin, are all primed to make us feel closer, are all primed to help us to create strong attachments and have that kind of biological, physiological mechanism. That’s the point of them, and we miss out on so much of that. Those are the things that we should be working to increase.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yeah, I feel even just my somatic sensation responding even as you’re talking, imagining how critical and important that is to have those bonding moments. Okay, so can you talk a little bit more about Pillow? Because it sounds like you and your partner have really devoted your careers to providing a platform that helps couples do this in the way of technology, but that helps people turn back towards their relationship to connect. Is that right?

Kate Moyle: Yes, so I suppose it’s two-sided. One is that it is helping couples to access expert-written intimacy advice from the comfort of their own home, so in a way that’s non-threatening, permission-giving, easy to use, easy to access, convenient… Some of the episodes are five minutes. And there is, again, no pressure for it to be sexual. The episodes are all based around intimacy, they’re not based around sex. That’s the kind of love/intimacy education platform part of it, because we want couples to be able to find tools to make them feel closer.

Also, we appreciate that lots of couples wouldn’t want to go and see, for example, a therapist or an expert, but also lots don’t need to. What they’re looking for are just different ways to try things. The whole point of the app is that it’s not only for couples that are struggling in their relationships, it’s for all couples. It’s for couples that are in a good place, they just wanna feel closer because they like feeling close to that partner, and that’s the beauty of their relationship.

And the other side of it is that we are amplifying the voices of those experts who are working with couples every day. We know that there is so much amazing expertise and knowledge and exercises and ideas, but a lot of it is behind the closed doors of therapy rooms, or exclusively kept [unintelligible 00:35:54.27] or it’s in books, and what we wanted is another way of getting all of that expert knowledge and wisdom heard. We want to amplify the voices of those who are doing all of this amazing work every day, and to use that to help people.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Yes. Great, well how do people get in touch with Pillow and your work?

Kate Moyle: Pillow – our website is www.pillow.io, or you can find us on Instagram and Twitter @TryPillow, and on Facebook at Pillow App. I am on Twitter @KateMoylePsyc, and Instagram @KateMoyleTherapy.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Lovely. Is there anything else you wanna underscore or add before we transition out?

Kate Moyle: No, I mean… I would love to encourage people to check out Pillow; it’s free to try for two weeks, so you get a 14-day free trial. But really, just to pay attention to the message, which is that it doesn’t take a lot to nurture our relationships and feel closer to people, and that’s really what we want to help people try and achieve.

Dr. Jessica Higgins: Lovely. Well, thank you for the work you’re doing and thank you for being on this show.

Kate Moyle: Thank you so much for having me on.

I hope you have enjoyed today’s episode with Kate Moyle. If you are interested in accessing today’s show notes, the transcript and any of the links mentioned, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Podcast and you can find the most recent episodes there at the top. Again, today’s episode is 137. Kate and I are in dialogue about my contributing to an upcoming Pillow episode. I look forward to collaborating with her, and it’s been a pleasure to have her on the show.

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. It is important to learn ways to spice up your relationship sexually to have a better connection for a long lasting love.

If you have a question that you would like to submit to the Empowered Relationship Podcast, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com, click on Contact and find more information there. Until next time, I hope you take great care.

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