Podcast: Play in new window

Subscribe: RSS

Holding on to the past may seem like gaining power over things that cannot be changed, but the opposite is true. Judith Belmont, motivational speaker, author, and psychotherapist for 40 years, advises that forgiving makes you and your relationship happier and more loving.

Forgiveness is essential to become free of the pains of the past. The hurt may never leave, but it can be managed positively so that you no longer have to bring it into your relationship and instead focus on the here and now.

Judith is the author of 9 mental health and wellness books and therapeutic card decks, including Embrace Your Greatness and The Anxiety and Stress Solution Deck. Her books cover self-help, personal development, and tips and tools for therapists working with clients.

In this Episode 

• 04:17 Introduction to Judith Belmont
• 06:43 Forgiving does not condone an action that was taken. What it does is allow you to move on from your past and prevent another person from gaining power over you.
• 10:28 Reliving the hurt of the past means that you will never be free of it. This is the opposite of mindfulness which is defined as non-judgmental awareness.
• 15:41 People don't want to be wronged. Forgiveness may seem counterproductive to this sense of righteousness, but it allows you to overcome a former way of thinking that is no longer relevant to you and your life today.
• 17:02 In relationship, living your partner's narrative of you makes you at the mercy of someone else and distorts your self-esteem.
• 20:07 The hardest thing for most people is forgiving themselves as people are notoriously less forgiving of themselves than others.
• 23:31 Forgiveness is a gift you give to yourself. Forgiveness is giving up your righteousness that you were wronged or you wronged yourself, accepting what happened and growing from it.
• 28:58 Reclaim your power over your feelings. It is YOU who allowed yourself to feel something with someone else's actions. Be a victor instead of being a victim.
• 33:15 Feeling hurt is necessary to let you know that something wrong happened. In fact, some situations will deepen you because of the hurt. You can manage hurt instead of carrying it.
• 37:29 Judith's tips and strategies for forgiving others and yourself
• 40:11 Information on Judith's books, therapeutic cards, and website

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Think about the things you say to yourself. What is your self-talk? Kicking yourself reduces your self-esteem and makes you a prisoner of your past.
• Imagine someone you admire telling you your own self-talk. How would your empathy be different for that person versus for you?
• Adopt a growth mindset which celebrates your effort and growth versus a fixed mindset which places value solely on the outcome.
• Think not about what happened but your take on it and how you deal with it. This shows you just how resilient you can be through the pain.
• Name-calling is unproductive. Be descriptive with your observations with your partner so there are clear areas for improvement.
• Set limits. You can forgive a person but you don't have to have them in your life.

Mentioned

Judith's website
What is Your Forgiveness IQ? by Judith Belmont
Judith's Amazon author page
ERP 026: How to Repair & Resolve Hurt in Relationship
ERP 123: Forgive For Love with Dr. Fred Luskin
ERP 153: How to Repair a Breach of Trust in Relationship
ERP 158: How to Resolve Resentment in Your Relationship
Shifting Criticism for Connected Communication by Dr. Jessica Higgins

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About Today's Show

Judith, thank you for joining us today.

Thank you for having me.

I am so thrilled to have your expertise on the topic of forgiveness and how it might relate to relationship. I know you've been in this field and you help in so many different ways, and you even train other therapists. I'm curious. What got you interested in forgiveness?

I have a book on self-esteem called Embrace Your Greatness. And actually, I'm working on another one and what has struck me is that forgiveness is a cornerstone of self-esteem.

So, I think forgiveness is a universal issue that people struggle with. The less forgiving they are, it's usually correlated with the less happy they are and the worse they feel about themselves.

It sounds like you were really out to look at self-esteem and some other aspects in that this is a real cornerstone, and that it really does deserve to have some attention around because if we're not doing that forgiveness work, it really impacts our sense of happiness, openness, self-esteem. It sounds like a lot of different things.

Exactly.

Yeah. It's interesting. I think sometimes when I hear people talk about forgiveness, I think a lot of people have an association because sometimes in different religions and spiritual communities that forgiveness is really promoted as a spiritual practice. I think that is really true. And there's so much around it that doesn't necessarily mean it's spiritual. I wonder if you find that people kind of see it as too fluffy, or too woo woo, or it doesn't have a lot of practical grit. I don't know if it's like a lot of real merit. I'm curious if you find people's resistance around that.

I just actually had a coaching client yesterday who was really having a hard time in our talk about forgiveness. But it's not because he thinks it’s sort of not relevant or whatever. It's just that people have a misconception that when they forgive that it's saying the behavior was okay. And that's really the resistance that I've found with a lot of people that they equate forgiveness with condoning.

And even though maybe intellectually, they know it's not true because I have worked with them and told them it has nothing to do with condoning. It's still hard because when you harbor resentment, it's almost like, “Well, if I forgive, then maybe I wasn't right along all along. And maybe that gives them a pass.”

I had one client who had a very difficult childhood. Seemed pretty actually abusive, I would consider it. She said, “No. I'll never forgive my parents because that would be giving them a pass.” I worked with her for a long time. It was very, very difficult because that was ingrained in her that that makes it okay.

And there's one thing for sure, the past never changes. We can only change our relationship to the past.

It's almost as if the association with forgiveness is that it's making that event or that behavior permissible. And almost as if the lack of forgiveness is a way of setting a boundary. Is that right?

Right. I think it's a way of maintaining control. That, “Okay. You did this to me. I'm not going to forgive. I'm going to hold a grudge because you are wrong.” It's a way of having control but it's actually an illusion because you're giving up your control. You give up your control for things that have happened that are out of your control. That shouldn't have happened, that wouldn't have happened, that you didn't think could have happened, but it did.

And when you say “give up your control”, I guess I'm feeling inside myself. It's almost like I can get hijacked in the drama of it. I'm still somewhat connected. It's occupying a lot of my energy.

Exactly. Exactly. If you feel like you were wronged, whether it is in a relationship with a partner, or with family members, or coworkers, or friends, the energy that you invest in being angry, only hurts you. Now, that doesn't mean you don't set boundaries, you don't set limits. You do healthy things.

People who stand on principle that these people don't deserve forgiveness, what ends up happening is you become a victim of what happened.

There's a quote by Lily Tomlin, “Forgiveness is giving up the hope of a better past.” I always thought that was a very poignant quote because things in the past can hurt. If you keep on reliving them by not forgiving, you'll never get free of them. It's the opposite of one of the cornerstones of happiness and self-esteem, which is mindfulness.

Mindfulness isn't necessarily meditation, where you're like in a room or on a mountaintop, and you just don't have anybody around and you just zone out. Mindfulness is non-judgmental awareness. It's being present focus, non-judgmentally. It's a way of living. If you are not forgiving, you can't be mindful because you are dealing with all the recesses of your brain and the anger and the past and you end up using the past as a hitching post rather than as a guidepost.

So important. I feel like we could kind of expand that and have that be the whole interview. You said something with this Lily Tomlin quote that really touches on a real emotion around grief. I can see how this would relate to self-esteem and self-worth because if we think, “Oh, I deserve so much better or I want so much better.” and like really acknowledging the past and being honest about it, and really, perhaps even doing some forgiveness work. Again, very different than condoning or that I would have wanted it to be different or deserved it to be different. And if we don't acknowledge or don't do that work, it's like this almost, like you said, illusionary or it's this fantasy almost that we don't want to accept what did happened. Am I hearing that right?

Right. I mean, you can't change the past but you can change your narrative of the past. A lot of people are in denial. You mentioned the grieving. There's the stages of grieving by Kubler Ross. The last stage of grieving is acceptance. It starts with denial, anger, bargaining, depression. And when bargaining doesn't work, there's depression. And then, acceptance.

I see forgiveness as going through the stages of grieving. Let's take the example of a relationship that has had a bumpy road. Maybe you didn't see the signs. And then, you get angry when you find out things that you didn't know. Bargaining is, “Well, if I'm this way. Maybe you won't act that way.” Depression is when that doesn't work and you don't have the power. Acceptance is growing from the hurt. It's healing from the hurt.

Yeah. It sounds like if I can accept and really acknowledge what is and then I work with that. And the loss and like you're saying, the grief and the pain around that. But the forgiveness and the sense of fighting what we want it. It's almost the sense of suffering, right, trying to fight against pain or trying to fight against the reality of what was. It sounds like forgiveness, as you're describing it is so closely related to acceptance, so that we can free ourselves and, in some ways, free that bind that we feel with another.

Exactly. I think people confuse forgiveness with going back for more. But you can be forgiving and set a limit that you never see someone again. You don't let that person be part of your life because it's a toxic influence. You could be extremely forgiving but, let's say break up with someone, because it is a relationship that you find very toxic.

Sometimes people seem to grow out of a relationship just because they are more confident in themselves and they are realizing, “Hey, this is who I am. It's not that I'm giving up on you but to be with you that would be giving up on me.”

Sometimes relationship is not a good match. If you're with someone, let's say, who's extremely jealous or is abusive in any way. You can still forgive that person and move on because forgiveness is really an attitude. And as you say, it's an acceptance. It's an acceptance that this happened that's out of my control and I need to get my control back. I'm not going to be a victim of it anymore.

As you're describing this, it feels as if not forgiving is still playing into the drama and keeping it alive. Like, I'll show you. I'm going to snub you. I'm going to hold this grudge. It's still participating in some dance.

Absolutely. That's a great point. Many people with low self-esteem, but I think people in general, they like to be right. They don't want to be wronged. If they forgive, what do they do with that sense of righteousness? And basically, it really doesn't matter if you're right or you're wrong. It doesn't matter that the other person could have been very wrong or 50% wrong or whatever. It's all about you being able not to be stuck in a past way of thinking and actions that are no longer relevant. I mean, you can choose either to live in the past or learn from it. Learning is a really big thing. A lot of people choose to live in the past instead of learn from it and move on.

I love that. It's so clear too in my experience that having been wronged is not equated to someone's value or how worthy or lovable they are. I mean, we're all lovable but somehow in the association of like, “I don't deserve this. And so therefore, I have to kind of hold this grudge or prove.” Someone can be incredibly worthy, beautiful, valuable, successful, all of the things that we praise and still have injury and still have trauma or someone do something offensive.

Absolutely. I was actually thinking of a coaching client I talked to yesterday, who is in a relationship and is married, and very, very wounded because he goes by his wife's narrative. And the wife's narrative is he’s kind of a jerk. But you know, that is obviously not being supportive. He is buying into a narrative that's not actually who he is, but he's believing that it's him. That's the problem.

If you're in a relationship that's toxic, and it's unhealthy, and people don't mean to be unhealthy. They can only be as healthy as they are. I have no doubt his wife thinks that he's a “jerk”. But first thing, I hate labels because that doesn't mean anything. That's just very dramatic. Let's not exaggerate. Let's talk about specific. Maybe, okay, there's some things that he does that is not that great. Okay. So, that would be sort of more objective, but to say, oh, someone's a jerk. That's kind of irrational thinking anyway.

I think that in relationship, if you buy into someone's narrative, who has their interest a lot more than your interests, even though they might not know it, they might be telling you all this for your own good so you can learn, then you're going to be a victim instead of what I call a victor. You're going to be at the mercy of someone else's narrative about you. And then, it distorts your self-esteem. It's like you look at one of those funny mirrors and a carnival, and you're all distorted, you don't see yourself the way that you really are.

No kidding. Yes. And it is potentially even at the mercy, like you're saying, of someone's narrative or someone's actions or someone's behavior. And that is a dangerous place to be if it's hinged on someone else's behavior.

This is like a warning sign. If someone name calls, if someone calls you a jerk, or you're just lazy, you're just selfish, or if you find yourself doing that, that is really irrational thinking. That is summing up a whole human being in a way that is completely dramatic and irrational. And so, it's much better to be descriptive. “I don't like the way you’re behaving right now when you raise your voice or something.” Being as descriptive as fine. You can lodge something you would like to be different. You can lodge a complaint is what I'm thinking. Okay, that's all right. But to name call and label, then you’ll know someone isn't thinking clearly.

I do think that probably the hardest thing for a lot of the clients I've had over the years, I used to have a private practice and now I have a coaching practice as well as write books. I think the hardest thing is for people to forgive themselves. Because people are notoriously harder on themselves than they are to other people. So, what I would have people do is think about that the things that they say to themselves. What is their self-talk? If they are saying, “I'm such an idiot. I screwed up. I wasted my life with her. I did whatever.” If you kick yourself, not only is your self-esteem going to be really, really low, but you are going to be a prisoner of your past. It's a prisoner of your past with a very murky lens that you look at a lot of your faults rather than your strengths and your challenges and your determination.

I really like that quote that I made up because so many people in retrospect realize that they were a little foolish, they were a little clueless. But instead of loving that foolish, young, naive, former self, they kick it around. They berate that former younger self.

With the vantage point that they currently have.

Exactly. It's like that Monday morning quarterback kind of idea. It's so clear in retrospect. And I had a friend once tell me, a fellow therapist, “If only we knew everything when we were five.” And I always thought that was great. I think of that sometimes. We are learning human beings. As long as we can learn and grow, that's the important thing.

That actually brings me to a field of psychology that's relatively new. It's called Mindset Science. That is focusing on having a growth mindset instead of a fixed mindset. A growth mindset is focusing on how you grow, and learn, and the effort and the perseverance you put into things. And a fixed mindset is, “Oh, I'm good because I got an A. I'm smart because I got an A on a test.” It's like what you've accomplished rather than the effort and the growth that you're experiencing.

Exactly. I've seen research about how that applies to couples, where people get into this destiny mindset that this is the one and then if there's conflict, they're like, “I don't know what to do now. Maybe they're not the one.” Versus the growth mindset of like, “Oh, we have conflict. There's opportunity here. How do we work together? How do we grow together?” And a lot around that that's so key.

Judith, as we're talking, I realize you probably have a very clear definition or understanding of actually what forgiveness is. Would you lay that out for us?

I can't say I have a definition that I have memorized but basically what forgiveness is, is accepting what happened, accepting someone not allowing that anger and lack of forgiveness to burn you. And realizing that people can only be as healthy as they could be. People don't have to be sorry for you to forgive them because really, and this is a quote, I can't remember exactly who said it but forgiveness is really a gift you give to yourself.

I guess the definition of forgiveness is giving up the sense of righteousness that you were wronged or that you wronged yourself.

Yes. That's so key. I think one of the thoughts I was having as I was looking over my notes before we got on this interview, and I was thinking about couples who may have a hard time forgiving because they keep experiencing the thing that they find very much like a behavior or action. It's an injury. It gives them injury. Like, how do you forgive if you know it's going to happen again? But to your point, you're saying it's accepting the circumstances or the person's capacity at the time and it was what it was. And then, how you can take care of yourself in the way of limits and boundaries and how you can move forward in a different way rather than trying to rub somebody's nose in it in the hopes that that's going to change something in the past.

Well, that’s certainly something that's very true. As hard as people try, they never can change someone else. Even change their minds. And when people get into conflict, what is it? It's that they want to change someone's mind. They want to change someone's perspective. You might be able to change someone's reality, but you can never change their perspective. You can't reach inside their head.

Now, let's say you're in a relationship that is really not a healthy relationship. Let's say someone keeps on cheating on you or being abusive either verbally or definitely physically. That's not something you keep on going back for more, unless there's a commitment for moving forward with growth and with support and help. There are some relationships that really are not healthy and should not be continued. If it's actually damaging to the growth of the people involved, or at least one of the persons involved. That doesn't mean you can't forgive the person. You can forgive them and let go with love. Sometimes people are better as lessons than they are for people that you continue to be with.

But let's take the less extreme circumstance and sort of everyday type of conflicts and whatever. I think that the most important thing that I'm thinking of right now in terms of forgiveness is to not keep on bringing up the past, and not keep on bringing up what they did back then. If the behavior keeps on happening, then it's up to you to set limits and say, “When you don't like the way that I'm acting here, whatever, and you start raising your voice at me or whatever, I am going to walk out of the room. I am not going to listen to that because that is not healthy for me. And then, you end up berating me more and I'm not going to be labelled or berated.” It's all about setting limits.

Some people aren't able to get with the program. They need to decide, “Is this relationship worth pursuing?” Of course, you could always get help with a therapist but I think that the most important thing is you don't want to feel worse in order to be with someone so you could feel better. Because if your self-esteem is going to be plummeting because of not being treated well, you're going to be hanging by a thread.

No kidding. And Judith, it sounds like you're really focusing on the toxic dynamic, and that pattern, and that really trying to get out of that is what you're advising. I do recognize that there are people that might feel trauma, and it is alive in them. It's not so much that they're trying to focus on the past, but it just is in their nervous system. And to be able to even just raise your hand and say, “I'm noticing I'm having a lot of feelings come up or I'm reacting.” That's very different than trying to punish someone or being super resentful or holding them as like they're being punished. Right?

Yes, I definitely agree. That's a great point. I think that it's important to think like a victor and not a victim. And how you do that is realize that no one can make you feel anything. I'm not talking about physical abuse. That's a whole other example. That's criminal behavior. That's a whole other thing. So, I am not even going to go there. We're talking about – it's not a physical abusive relationship.

I think that a lot of people don't realize they have more control over their feelings and their thoughts. They think other people control it. I'll give you an example. When I would do presentations and I would say, “Just by show of hands. How many people would say that at least a few people made you mad this past week?” Almost everybody raised their hand. “How about stressed out? How many people would say that you were stressed out by other people?” A lot of hands.

Basically, people didn't realize that the answer was zero. Because no one can actually stress you out, except if you allow it to. No one can change the neurons in your brain. No one can make you feel mad. You feel mad when someone does something. So, when you take ownership of your feelings and don't think that you're a victim, you can see things a lot clearer and you can make better decisions. And that's thinking like a victor rather than a victim.

And it's not to say, oh, the pain doesn't exist, but the frame and the story and the, the position with it is very different.

Absolutely. Because the pain could be there but if we think the pain is caused by someone else. Now, I'm not saying that they can't help considerably. I'm not saying that we're all like islands. But let's say someone in a relationship says, “He upset me so much.” That's actually not true because he didn't really upset me, I allowed myself. I got upset when he did something. If you could tease out what you have control over rather than what you don't, then you're going to feel and think more clearly and be able to protect yourself and handle things differently.

I’ll give you an example. Let's use that example of the jerk. Let's say your spouse or partner calls you a jerk. You could either be completely enraged that someone named calls or you can feel hurt and realize, “I am hurt because he/she said that.” There's a whole different way of interpreting it so that you're either going to feel absolutely ballistic and start yelling back at the other person, or more sad, or more even, depending on how secure you feel in yourself and how clearly you're thinking. It's our thoughts that are causing us rather than the other person making, you know, short of physical abuse. They can't actually change our attitudes.

Right. The trigger or what we're observing and how we're experiencing that. And, again, as you're describing in our ownership or how we're framing that is so vital to how we're going to react and how we feel. I'm curious for you, Judith. I sometimes come across this idea that when there is an injury, there can be an appropriate time to feel upset and hurt. And then at some point, whatever that duration of time is, probably will be relative to whatever the upset was.

Meaning, if it was a bigger upset, like my car got stolen or something versus I stubbed my toe. We might need a little more time for that upset to just be upset. But then, the work that you're describing can be really relevant. Do we continue to hold that experience and feel victimized by it or do we really do some work around acceptance and moving forward? I'm curious what you would say to that.

I think that you just said it. I think that was said beautifully. Feeling hurt is good. It's like a gas light on the car. We need to feel hurt if something wrong happened. Otherwise, we'd be in denial, which would be the first stage of grieving. That's not a good thing. It's not good to be in denial.

So, we recognize that we're hurt. We're in touch with our feelings. It's funny. Some clients would say to me, “Well, should I even feel that way?” It makes me sad that people even wonder if they have a right to feel certain ways. Of course, you do. You have a right to feel anything. It's good to acknowledge it. But what do you do with it? Do you stew about it, or you do something about it? And that is a choice that we can have more control over. If you think of the most difficult situations that you've been through, probably they were the most meaningful for you, and help shape you the way that you are.

Some situations will deepen you because of the hurt. It doesn't mean you wish the hurt away. You just want to manage it instead of carrying it.

Oh, my goodness. I am so excited about that notion of, it's really what you do with it that determines your deepening, you're strengthening, and you're growing perhaps.

Right. I have something that came up actually, with a client that I was talking to last week. It was a couple. The husband says something that the wife didn't like, and she was really triggered. And really, a lot of the trigger happened way before. They were married for a long time. Probably, over 40 years. However, the trigger happened much earlier before they even met.

When you have an argument with let's say, a partner or spouse, a lot of it, I call it the 90/10 rule. Ninety percent of what you're arguing about is not really what you're arguing about. Ten percent is about whatever is at hand. Ninety percent is all these unresolved issues that you have in the relationship or you bring into the relationship. If you were told early on that you were not that special in different ways, obviously, maybe not even directly, verbally. But if you kind of got the sense that you weren't really valued and you had these triggers from the past, you might overreact to what your partner is doing.

They might be paying for things that happened way before you even met that have not been resolved. It's always been my theory that you keep on repeating lessons and triggers and dealing with things until you really can put them at rest. I've known people who have never been able to put them at rest because they still have that basic sense of insecurity and lack of sense of self-worth from way early on.

I couldn't agree with you more. Most of the couples work that I'm doing is really helping people access those deeper layers that are so typically hidden. And even with partners that have been together for a very, very long amount of time doesn’t recognize because it's so hidden. Right? It's not what we typically show.

It’s what you know. It's your first language. I liken it to my clients. It's like your first language. You learn a certain language. Then, you go to another country, you still are going to have that accent.

Absolutely. Judith, you have given us so many real golden keys here around acceptance and shifting into a more victorious orientation, and also how to recognize when we are feeling hurt, in pain, that there is some authentic experience around that, but what do we do with it? And how do we grow? And how do we work with it? Is there anything else as far as how to practically work with forgiveness and perhaps an upset that's happened that you want to mention before we start transitioning?

I think that I mentioned before that people are notoriously harder on themselves than generally, they are to anybody else. Forgiving yourself can be very difficult. One exercise that I have with clients that I think is very helpful is thinking of some of the phrases you say to yourself. Like, you know, “You should have known better.” “I wish I never did this.” “I wish I never said that.” “It's too late to take it back.” And, you know, how they beat themselves up. And then, imagine that you are thinking of a very good friend or someone you really admire. And that person said the same exact thing. How would your empathy be different for that person versus for you?

As you're thinking about that person and realizing you probably would have a lot more compassion for that person’s struggles for not knowing then what they know now. Imagine you merging in with this person. And you are the one that you see the compassion and the empathy that maybe 10 minutes before you weren't able to see for yourself.

It's such an incredible shift. I was working with a client, and she had been raised in her parents and her dad had, I think more than one affair. Like, he would cheat on his wife, her mother. And now, fast forward, she's engaged. She was talking about having these feelings of jealousy and really having a lot of self judgement and shame about it. And did a piece of this work around, “Well, if your best friend was going through this or someone you loved. What would you tell them?” And I mean, Judith, it was like, instead of just a softening and this compassion and the tears and the like, and being able to be on that receiving end, it's so valuable.

Yeah. What I think is amazing, it's not what happens to you, it’s your take on what happens to you and how you deal with it. That gives people a lot of hope because you can actually be a lot more resilient through the pain and through the challenges. You can actually become more an authentic you.

So, beautiful. How do people get in touch with what you're doing and what you're offering?

Well, I have many books that I wrote, both for therapists and for people interested in self-help. I also have therapeutic cards, the anxiety and stress solution deck, which a lot of people find very helpful. They're just like, you know, a short mini lesson in a deck of cards. My website is BelmontWellness.com. That would be a great way to see my resources. I actually have a lot of free resources on my site. I have a lot of handouts. My orientation is very practical. So, I have a lot of handouts and worksheets, I have actually a Forgiveness IQ. That's one of the handouts. And so, you can use those with yourself, with clients. You can download them. They all have my name and credit on them, Belmont Wellness, so you don't even have to ask for permission.

Well, that's incredibly resourceful. I'm curious if you would be willing, or if I can share that link on today's show notes for people to access the Forgiveness IQ, as well as your website, and perhaps direct access to the ability to purchase your card deck and books.

Yeah, that would be great. And also, obviously on Amazon I have an Amazon author page. So, there's plenty of ways to see what I'm doing. But if you want some free resources as well as see what I offer in terms of my books and therapeutic cards, my website Belmont Wellness will have a lot of different things. I also have some videos there also, and a couple of my interviews.

So great. I really like the bite size practical but really profound tips because it's like we can, you know, in a day be able to kind of really have it in our mind and work with it a little bit. Sometimes, when things get too big, it's hard to implement and really think about so I love that.

Right. That's my focus is just practical, short tips to be more empowered. My saying is, “To love yourself, to love your life.”

Wonderful Judith. Thank you for joining us today.

Well, thank you for having me. I really enjoyed talking to you. You have a great show. Thank you for what you do. You do a great service to people. I'm honored that you asked me to talk with you.

Yes. It's been such a gift to have you on the show.

Thank you very much.

Signing Off

If you have a topic you would like me to discuss, please contact me by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon, if you purchase the book from this link.