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Self and co-regulation is an essential human need that couples need to understand to know that their relationship is somewhere they can feel safe and come home to. Deb Dana, LCSW, clinician and consultant specializing in Polyvagal theory, joins the podcast to discuss what regulation is, its role in the nervous system, and how couples can apply it to their relationships.

Deb trains therapists worldwide on the Polyvagal approach. She is co-founder of The Polyvagal Institute and author of The Polyvagal Theory in Therapy: Engaging the Rhythm of Regulation and Polyvagal Exercises for Safety and Connection: 50 Client-Centered Practices. 

Deb is also the co-editor with Stephen Porges of Clinical Application of the Polyvagal Theory: The Emergence of Polyvagal Informed Therapies and developer of the Rythm of Regulation clinical training series among many other pioneering works into this space.

In this Episode 

• 06:21 Co-regulation is the first organizing principle of polyvagal theory. It is a biological need to survive and to experience well-being. For people living with trauma, this did not happen in a safe environment and led to self-regulation instead.
• 08:40 Neuroception is the second organizing principle. It refers to the nervous system's way of getting information. The nervous system is constantly listening to three pathways: inside the body, the environment, and other nervous systems.
• 09:57 Hierarchy is the third organizing principle. There are three states that we visit all the time: ventral (safety and connection), sympathetic (fight and flight), and dorsal (disconnect and shutdown).
• 13:25 Co-dysregulation in relationship is common and when this happens the prefrontal cortex doesn't work the way it should. For couple therapy to be effective, one system must be anchored in ventral.
• 17:52 Protective strategies keep partners sympathetically charged. Since biology keeps nervous systems in this state, timing is important so that connection happens. Reaching by one partner while the other is in this state will result in pushback.
• 27:28 Tips for couples in dysregulated phases and using language other nervous systems can understand.
• 35:01 Asking who, what, where, when is an exercise to anchor to ventral and feel safe.
• 43:07 Contact Deb and learn more about the Polyvagal approach.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Attempting to reach your partner in a sympathetic state must come without an agenda. When reach is presented solely as an offer, the other nervous system will sense it and be more open to communication.
• Having a disproportionate response to a trigger probably has its roots from your past and got activated by your nervous system in the present moment. Ask yourself, “Is this level of response needed?”
• Naming what state you are in, making it explicit, and listening to what the state is telling you offers insight into its causes. This gives the disconnect a framework from which solutions may be introduced.
• When one partner is ready to repair but the other isn't, it's effective to put out there that the ready partner is “ready when you are ready.” Similarly, when the partner who isn't ready says, “I need time to regulate and I will be back” can put anxieties at ease, too.
• Moments of dysregulation are not inherently bad as they are tied to the survival instinct. Listening to them offers honest insight into what the nervous system is really trying to say.

Mentioned

The Polyvagal Institute Website

Rhythm of Regulation Website

The Polyvagal Theory in Therapy: Engaging the Rhythm of Regulation (*Amazon book link)

Polyvagal Exercises for Safety and Connection: 50 Client-Centered Practices (*Amazon book link)

Polyvagal Flip Chart: Understanding the Science of Safety (*Amazon book link)

Clinical Application of the Polyvagal Theory: The Emergence of Polyvagal Informed Therapies (*Amazon book link)

Befriending Your Nervous System: Looking Through the Lens of Polyvagal Theory (*Amazon audiobook link)

Anchored: How to Befriend Your Nervous System Using Polyvagal Theory (*Amazon book link)

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

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LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About Today's Show

Deb Dana, thank you for joining us today.

I am so happy to be with you.

I am deeply, deeply honored to share this time with you. I know you are incredibly evolved in your level of teaching, and your understanding, and you're such a distinguished person in this field and contributor to understanding polyvagal, and training clinicians as well as helping people just have a better grasp on all that's at play with polyvagal and being trauma informed. So, thank you.

You're welcome. I like to think of myself as a translator for Steve Porges’ brilliant work. Happy to see where we go today.

Yeah, I love it. And as you know, this show is really targeted towards people in relationship. Oftentimes, there's a dual two-pronged approach, and you even talk about this around, when we're in relationship we are constantly co-regulating, feeling the nervous system of the other, as well as doing our best to self-regulate. And obviously, easier said than done. So, can you help us around what co-regulation is and how you're viewing self-regulation and how it's important? I know there's so much that we could probably spend the whole show on that but can you give us some groundwork here? Yeah, let's dive in. So, co-regulation is one of the organizing principles of polyvagal theory and it's a biological imperative, which means that we need co-regulation in order to survive, and then also to experience well-being.

For many of us, that didn't happen. We had to self-regulate to survive, and didn't learn those lovely skills of feeling safe in a co-regulating relationship. That gets in the way of our adult relationships, which is what we see often in therapy and what we feel in our personal lives, whether it's with a partner, or a colleague, or a friend, or a child. That co-regulation is challenging for us.

The other thing that's so interesting is our nervous systems are always communicating, always, with other nervous systems. So, your nervous system and mine are in a conversation right now. Our brains are also in a conversation. But below that, our nervous systems are having a conversation. I think we don't pay enough attention to that.

And so, in a relationship, we are always communicating with our partner's nervous system, and they're communicating with ours. It's a two-way broadcast and received on both ends. We're also, as you said, when into this, we're also having to self-regulate. We're having to anchor in that state of safety and connection, which is called ventral. Because if we're not in ventral, we are biologically unable to regulate with another being. It's kind of a messy thing, where all of these things are working at the same time. And yet, polyvagal theory kind of gives us a roadmap to, you know, how do we understand when I'm getting cues of welcome or signs of warning from another nervous system, which is that neuroception, which is that lovely word. I love that word. It's the nervous system’s way of getting information. It's not perception, which is the brain but neuroception, the nervous system.

There are three pathways that are happening all the time. One is inside. It's inside my body. My nervous system is listening to what's going on inside. And then, it's listening into the environment. So, you know, the sounds, the sights, the smells, everything in the environment. And it’s listening between nervous systems. Those three pathways are always, micro moment to micro moment, getting cues. So, either you're sending me enough cues that I feel welcomed and I want to approach or you're sending me cues that my nervous system goes, “Hmm… Maybe not. I’m going to stay back.” Or your nervous system might send be sending me cues that I pick up is really dangerous, in which case I'm going to go away or disconnect. It happens all the time, right?

Oh, my gosh. Just even out of the gate, a few things that you're helping us understand right now, there's so much to unpack there. I just appreciate your brilliance in helping people start to understand this roadmap, as well as understanding some exercises to really tune in, because as you're describing, as much as we might, even people listening to the show, are typically really high functioning, high level, really intelligent, like to self-study. And the insight, the understanding doesn’t always translate to assisting the nervous system, that we can't override that and that there's this biological neuroception that's happening all the time that's informing, that we're responding to. Yes, so, so, so much here. I love how you're such a guide in offering people assistance around this.

If we take a moment to just add in that third organizing principle, what you're saying is, our nervous system is responding to the cues it's getting and it's taking us into a state, which is the third organizing principal hierarchy. We have three states that we visit all the time. The one I mentioned was that ventral safety and connection. I'm organized enough to want to reach out. I want to reach in. I want to reach out. I want to be in the world, spirit, all of that. That's that ventral place.

And then, if I'm getting warning signs from you, I move to the sympathetic which most people know is fight and flight, mobilizing. I'm anxious. I'm angry. I'm all those things. Or to the other one, which is dorsal, which is this disconnect, collapse, shutdown, disappear in some way, where I have no energy. Those are the nervous systems choices. It's always making a choice. Every second it's making one of those choices. When we're taken into a survival state, either that fight flight or the shutdown, it's not that we don't want to be in connection. We don't want to show up for our partners because our biology is no longer allowing us to do that. Which when you tell that to people, it's like, oh, changes the story completely. You mean, it's not that she doesn't want to talk to me, it's that her biology doesn't allow that to happen right now. It's a very different story, right?

It's a key shift. I think it's profound in how we're perceiving each other and the interpretations and how it informs the relationship, because if I think you’re turning away because you don't care, I'm going to feel incredibly different about that versus like you said, understanding oh, you're overwhelmed and you're not ready.

Right, exactly. That's beautiful. That's beautiful. Yeah. You bring up that piece that really it is our nervous system’s state, whichever one of those states my nervous system has taken me to that then is the foundation for the story that our brain makes up. Right? So, if I turn away and you can remain curious, and say, “Oh, I think she's dysregulated and can't be here with me right now.” That's a great story. If you also get dysregulated, then your story is going to be one of, “She doesn't care. I'm not important. This relationship is over.” all of those things. It truthfully is a matter of what state are you in? What is your nervous system? Where is it taking you? Because that's what your brain is going to use to make up the story. It’s so fascinating.

So fascinating, so complex, and yet, very, in the way you're describing, almost simple. If we can bring awareness to the nervous system, that that's such a key that unlocks. Because so often, what I think people are grappling with is reaction, reaction, reaction, reaction, and the escalation. And even, so often people are hearing in the world of intimacy and couplehood, “You got to love yourself first.” Right? And then we're hearing, “Okay. So, we're in a system together and we're co-regulating and the importance of safety and the biological need of feeling secure with another.” What comes first? When we are co regulating but we're triggering each other rather than offering support, this is complicated. But then you're saying there's a real direct way to work with this. Can you help with that?

Yeah. Sometimes we co-dysregulate. It’s very common in our partnerships. My partner gets angry, goes to fight, and I tend to go to shut down. And you can see that happening, right? It's like, one's really big and loud and the other one is not there. Or both get big and loud, or both disappear. And those are sort of the choices we have in our relationships, right. What I like to tell people when I'm working with them is there has to be one system in the room that has an anchor in ventral. There has to be one. Because if we're both dysregulated, then neither one of us can… Our prefrontal cortex, by the way, when we dysregulate, does not work in the way it needs to. So, we have no prefrontal cortex, we're both dysregulated. Somebody has to find their way back to regulation.

It doesn't always happen. Right? It's that self-regulation, co regulation. Which one comes first? It's chicken and egg kind of thing. But I do know that it's my responsibility to know my nervous system, and then to know what are the ways that I can find regulation because then I have a chance of offering that through my nervous system, that invitation for you to feel safe with me so that we can connect.

Yeah. I also would wonder that with that understanding and responsibility of knowing one's nervous system, that they're in a better position to send a clear cue to the other because it's not always visible.

Yeah. It's lovely, isn't it? We call it an implicit communication. It's being sent across the energy airwaves or whatever. My nervous system is simply sending you cues. Some of the ways it’s sending cues is through tone of voice, what's happening with my eyes. You and I are moving our heads, that's an automatic autonomic cue of welcome. Gestures, how close or far away. It's fascinating, all of these. And these things are wired into our biology. It's not that we've decided to use something that we think will work, it's wired In. We know. Our biology has wired this in so that it's there for all of us to use. Tone of voice being one of them. You think about couples and tone of voice, and how tone of voice can so easily send that message of warning. It doesn't matter what the words are. It's the prosody of the voice that sends that message. That's what the nervous system is looking for.

And if I feel, “Oh, this feels safe enough.” then I'm going to listen to the words. But if it doesn't feel safe enough, my nervous system is going to shut off that capacity to hear the words. Again, not because I don't want to listen but because my biology says, “No. Not safe. Don't”.

Yes. So important that this is just how we're wired. We're sending cues all the time. We're reading this, and this is how we're gathering and attuning and responding through this neuroception. I wonder, Deb, if you can help with the protective strategies that people have. Does that interfere? Do you feel like the biological cues are pretty clear, and then our tendencies and our protective strategies are layered? I guess help me with that. For example, I have a couple and the husband in this couple, he does present very contained. He is underneath, very scared. But his is more to withdraw, and to kind of like you're saying the shutdown. His wife does get angry because she's like, “You don't care.” You know, the whole classic kind of dynamic there. He will reach and do attempts to try to say and communicate but she's still reading the nonverbals. I guess I'm answering my own question but is there anything you want to add there around coping strategies and how that might interact with the nervous system cues that we're sending?

A couple of things came to mind as you were talking. One, our nervous systems are shaped over the course of our lifetime. Our experiences shape our nervous system. Our experiences with people out in the world.

The lovely thing about knowing polyvagal theory is that we are reshaping all the time. That's the hopefulness of understanding the nervous system. We can reshape our nervous systems. When you were talking about that couple, it's so sweet because his attempt to reach is a little bit of energy. His nervous system as longing to be met but with safety by his partner's nervous system. She is still too sympathetically charged to take that in so she can't. And so, that keeps the pattern going. And so, when these things happen, I always invite people. Not that we don't want them to reach, but we don't want them to reach in that moment. Because the system he's reaching towards is not available for contact. If we can sort of put it in those words.

Again, let's wait and let's help your partner come to a little bit of regulation and then try to reach. You have a very different experience. And so, a lot of it is about gauging where a nervous system is and timing. You’re timing the curiosity or that movement towards connection. Again, because what happens for this person is he reaches and gets sort pushed back again. And so, that reinforces. Don't do this, which makes perfect sense. I tell this to people all the time. It makes perfect sense when you think about your nervous system. Of course, your nervous system learns. It's just learned that reaching is dangerous.

The nervous system doesn't assign motivation and doesn't create moral meaning. Simply enacts a response to serve your safety. Your brain isn't going to make up a story. “I never can. It's never going to be.” The never or always, you know, that’s what the brain says. But if we can stay with the nervous system, the nervous system is learned. It’s giving you good information. Now is not the time. It doesn't mean that it's not the time later, but we've got to figure out how does your nervous system get enough cues of safety. It says, “Oh, now. Let's try now.” It's all about the balance. The cues of safety have to outweigh the cues of danger. That's a simple equation that I use.

If we’re in a partnership, I don't know what the cues of safety and cues of danger are for your nervous system. So, we would explore that. You don't mine. We would explore that. Because what mine are, I might think, “Well, of course.” You simply need to sit in a comfortable place and light a candle. And for your nervous system, it’s like that has nothing to do with a cue of safety at all. It's really interesting, I think, when we can be curious and explore those things with the people around us when people were in a relationship. It's kind of fun.

I can tell you. With my husband, I am still learning about his cues. Possibly, as you said, we're always forming. So, it's possible that it also is changing and that it's a not static but forever developing. And to have what you were talking about around the awareness around the nervous system, so that we can give some implicit language to help kind of navigate this and have a partnership where we're really welcoming and understanding how powerful and potent and important and critical this is, then that can really be supportive. So, Deb, real quick. When you talk about reach, I'm wondering if we're using that slightly different. I'm using it more globally, like towards because I think his attempt is to comfort or to co-regulate. That still might be a reach but it also still might be something she can't receive. And so, what are other ways that people can co-regulate when maybe the person isn't available like you said. The prefrontal cortex is offline, then the red, and that type of thing.

Interesting. Let's stay with your couple. If he is looking across at her and wanting a bit of connection, it may be from that place of trying to get out of collapse. So, there's a need.

That's actually trying to soothe her so that she'll calm down so he's not feeling unsafe. I think you got that bit. Okay.

Right. If we could get him to truly be in more regulation, that agenda isn't there. It's simply an offer. Right? And the other nervous system senses that immediately. If I sense you're coming with me with an agenda, I need to do something in order for you to be okay. My nervous system senses that. My brain can't put that together at the moment. My nervous system senses it. It's like, “No. No thank you.”

But if you come to me with a real sort of just, you know, just accompanying me. Just be with. I can feel how distressed you are right now. Very different experience, right? Because then my nervous system kind of catches. Like, “Oh, there's somebody here who is not trying to change me in some way. Just wants to be with me.” That's what is needed in that moment. Hard to do. Really hard to do.

Yes, hard to do. And what I'm feeling as you're talking is it's so tempting to want to take an example that you're illustrating, and use that as a technique, but still have an agenda behind it. Right? And so, we use this. I mean, I guess what’s coming to my mind is that we think we're clever, we're outwitting or something, but it's impossible to convey and try to manipulate that our nervous systems will always be sending clear cues and a person is going to pick up on that.

Yeah. One of the other things is depending on our childhood experience and our experience growing up, I might be very sensitive to cues. And experience cue is dangerous when you're truly not sending a cue in that way. If there's a mismatch there. That happens a lot for many of us. We have to sort of retool our neuroception because it's feeling something familiar and getting a big response.

Whereas, maybe there was a certain word you used. And for me, that was a real activator, but there was no intent behind it. You were still in a curious ventral place, but my nervous system responds. So, we want to be careful to really be curious about those things. If you have a big response to something, and then you think, “Well, that felt a little out of proportion to the moment.” That's a great cue for you to look and think, “Oh, where did that come from?” Because it probably is from your past and got activated by your nervous system in the present moment.

And then, I always use this question that I think is so simple, and yet easy. In this moment, in this place with this person, is that level of response needed? Because again, that's bringing your prefrontal in. It’s giving you some curiosity about it. It’s just really needed in this moment, right. And a lot of the times with myself I'll go, “Oh, probably not. That was an over response in some way.” And then I can make the repair and I can be curious about where that came from in my own history. I will say those happen all the time for all of us. It's not just for those of us who are, you know, complex trauma survivors. But for all of us. We have these mismatches that happened, and then it was like, “Oh, that didn't seem quite like it fit.” And there's been a rupture. We work with great big ruptures in relationships and in therapy anyway. What we want to look at are the other little ruptures, those little ruptures, because then we can make a repair. There's so much easier if we practice with the little ones. You know, “I'm sorry. I just got distracted by my phone. And so, I looked away. I'm just going to put it away now. And now I'm back with you.” Some little thing, right.

I can feel how powerful it is. I love what you're saying that if we can practice because we can have success or we can, you know, land the repair and have that reciprocity and that experience that then encourages and motivates us to do it in bigger ways. And to be clear, Deb, it sounds like you do make this really explicit when you're interacting. And you name it, yeah?

Yes. Because we want to take what is implicit and happening below the level of awareness and make it explicit and bring it into the relationship in that way because it's in the relationship anyway. It's happening.

As a couple is grappling with this, potentially both being dysregulated, it sounds like you're recommending that the first step would be to notice what state, whether or not we're in the dorsal, whether or not we're in the sympathetic fight and flight, and to be able to, like you were saying, make it explicit and that that's part of what we're encouraging. Is that right?

Yeah. My very first practice that I love to do with people is notice a name. We have to get really good at noticing names. We do a brief sort of outline of what the three states look like, sound like. What the beliefs are in those places? And then, we keep practicing. So, let's stop and notice what state are you in right now. Name it. You can name it with me. And then, we at least know, “Oh, you're in sympathetic.” or “Well, I'm still holding down ventral. We're okay. I can support.” Or, “You're in sympathetic. I've just gone to dorsal because you're now really scary to me. Okay. Now, we need to not try and connect at this moment because it will just recreate a habitual pattern.”

So, notice a name. And then individually, you know, I often ask people. “So, notice where you are. Name the state, and turn towards it with just a little bit of interest, curiosity, and listen for just a moment. What does the state want to tell you?” Because there's good information there. If I've just had a moment of going to sympathetic mobilization, I can be curious about it. There's something. There's some cue that prompted that and I can say, “Oh, that was it. Right?” Get information. Because really, what we're doing is we're information gathering all the time. We want to information gather both about our own system and about the systems of the people around us, the people we live with, and love, and work with, because then we can look through this lens and not have to make stories of, you know, “You're bad. I'm good.” “I'm bad. You're good.” You know, those sorts of things. They're not what our biology does.

Thank you for that. I am sure this is something that you've addressed many times, but for our listeners who one person maybe is fearing that disconnect a little bit more and walking away, or the timeout type of thing is a trigger, what do you suggest to people that are both in the dysregulated space and needing to calm, resource, and regroup? Would you recommend doing that together? It's interesting because if I'm in sympathetic my system says, “Get me out of here so that I might be able to return. I need to leave so that I can come back.” My biology is telling me that. I need to tell that to my partner in a way that my partner understands that my system has taken me to a place where I just can't be here right now. I'm going to go away and reregulate, and then I'll come back.

I only talked about repair. Sometimes we can repair in the moment. Like, it's something little, we can repair in the moment. Sometimes I'm ready to repair and my partner isn't. And so, I let them know that. “I'm ready. And I'll be ready whenever you're ready.” And sometimes I'm not ready. I need some time to find my way back to regulation so that I can come back and we can do this. It's really in making it explicit.

I've worked with a couple. He needed time away in order to be able to come back. It's just that he never would say “And I'll be back.” And when we figured out what are the words her nervous system needed to hear. Because “I'm taking a break” just really flooded her. But when he said “I'm taking a break and I'll be back when I'm regulated.” she was fine with it. She then waits. Again, it's really about what are the words? Because for another nervous system, those words would not, again, work. It needs to be something else, right? It's in that sort of curiosity about what works for your nervous system because I'm happy to offer the words that work for your nervous system because then I can get what I need. I need to go away to come back. Right? And so, let's figure this out.

When people talk about, “Well, it's like having a script or whatever.” And I said, “Well, kind of is in the beginning because I don't know what your nervous system needs to hear. I know what my nervous system would want to say but that may not be what your nervous system needs to hear. And this is all about creating safety.”

Yes! So, so, so key. And you mentioned something a moment ago about the complexities of when we have trauma or known trauma that can make this that much more activating. Right? Can you speak to that around what couples are experiencing? It's probably not that much different than what you're already saying, just the intensity level or the frequency and that type of thing is more pronounced.

I mean, it is all the same. Our nervous systems are sort of wired in the same way and work in the same way. If we have unresolved trauma histories, I think what we find is the moments of dysregulation are more intense, more frequent, and last longer. What I like to say to people is that we need to find our anchors in ventral. That's my terminology, “to anchor in ventral” and all of us dysregulate. It is a common human experience. And so, I've done a lot of work with my nervous system so my moments of dysregulation are less intense, less frequent and don't last as long but they happen. Many times a day actually. We travel through these states. And so, we want everybody listening with us today to know that that's normal.

When we dysregulate in a relationship, there's good information there for us. We need to listen to that. The key to this way of working is learning how to listen, learning how to hear what the nervous system is communicating. Couples asks and they say, “Well, what do you think that nervous system is trying to tell us right now?” Because it's doing this for a reason. It wants to know something. So, it's like learning how to how to listen in that way.

It's a language that is so important. We would be so much more illuminated I'm sure as to what's going on if we are hooking or tuning into that channel. And for listeners that are not familiar with anchoring and ventral, is there anything you'd like to help people understand there?

One of my favorite things is finding anchors in ventral If you want to play with me for a minute.

I would love to.

We do a who, what, where, when. So, who is a person in your life, who, when you think of them, you just feel that sense of being safely connected? That's where we start. It might be a partner. It could be a friend. There are many people. So, you find a who, right? And then, anytime you can be around that who or you can even bring that person to mind, it helps you feel that sense of safety and connection and regulation. Who are often challenging for us to find because people are often dangerous. People have often been the dangerous experiences in our lives. So, again, who can be complicated but we're always looking for the first one, right?

And then, what. What's a small something you do that brings you that sense of feeling safe and okay? People tell me this all the time. The other day somebody said, “It smells so sweet.” She said, “I have this wonderful smelling spray cleaner and I spray it on the counter and I wipe the counter and I bring sweet eventual every time.” Perfect. Something simple. It's not a great big practice. It's something easy, simple. That was a what.

Who, what, where. “Where” is a place where you feel you can relax. You're okay. You're welcomed. A lot of people find a “where” in nature. I like to have like a corner in my house where I can just sit that feels like that. So, look for a “where”. Create a “where”.

And then the last one is “when”. When are the moments? The predictable moments. I'm an early morning person. So, that early morning when I look out at the sky and see what the day is going to bring is an anchor for me. I can count on that every day. I don't know what's going to be out there but I can count on that moment of just looking out.

So, we look for that something in the who, what, where, when category and then we begin to just practice those. When you notice “Oh, I'm feeling a little bit of dysregulation coming in.” grab an anchor. Put to mind the person who is regulating or do the thing that’s simple to do. You might have a touchstone. A lot of people I work with and teach will have a touchstone. They'll have something that is either within their sight or that they can carry around with them in their pocket, which is a lovely thing to do. As I said, I live by the beach. And so, beach stones are everywhere. I have always loved picking them up. I have certain ones that if I think it’s going to be sort of a challenging day, I just put in my pocket. It’s that reminder that, “Oh, my nervous system knows how to be in ventral.” And I do have that belief. We all have this system in our nervous system. It’s all there for all of us.

Our nervous system knows how to get to ventral. Sometimes the pathways have been covered up for a long time and they're hard to get to but they're there. The more we practice these little things, the easier it is to walk that pathway. So, there's an inherent knowing and an inherent longing of that nervous system to be there. I think both of those things really help us remember that. It's like, “Oh, I may be dysregulated now but I know the pathway home. I can find that pathway again.”

So beautiful. I remember listening to your audio book “Befriending your nervous system” and I actually was hiking at the time. You were prompting some of these anchors and just your description helping people understand a lot more examples from your work and teaching and just getting that sense. Also, as you mentioned, how quickly something can get triggered and just being able to reference, being able to have that anchor and just this awareness and the compassion and the gentleness you offer people in noticing that this happens. This is a part of our living in the modern world, particularly.

Especially now in the time of pandemic. Our nervous systems have been greatly challenged. Either we have lost the people that we have co-regulated with or we're stuck with people that are hard to co-regulate with. Neither one being challenging. We've had to depend a lot more on self-regulation. It’s really hard over the long haul for our nervous system. It's hard because we're wired to connect. And yet connecting with people has become a cue of danger in many instances, right? It’s this paradox that we can't quite fit on a biological level. We don't know what to do with that.

Well, you're giving us such an important roadmap because as we're kind of winding down our time, you're helping us understand how to befriend and work with our nervous system and have that awareness and anchor and all the practices you're teaching and encourage people greatly to access your books and work with a therapist that's been trained with you.

But when we talk about relationship, if a couple both are struggling with their own regulation and experiencing co-dysregulation that you're helping us have some anchors, and some footing, and some foot stones or whatever those are called, you know, that pathway that really helps us put one foot in front of the other.

And as we understand and can speak this language, then we can start to access more of this co-regulation. And/or if you're lucky enough to be in a partnership where you do experience co-regulation from time to time, being able to really understand the priority of that. I think so many messages around independence and resilience and kind of the self-efficiency. And to really prize in and cherish that co-regulation and understand what it is, that's a huge gift.

I love that you brought that up because that's the both end of the nervous system that in order to experience true well-being and health, we need both co and self-regulation. We do talk about independence and self-regulation, and yet we cannot be truly living a life of well-being without co-regulation as well. We want to remember that and savor it.

And welcome the initiation of it that it's not needy or that it's not weak to want to cuddle or to want to hold hands or whatever the soothing co-regulating experiences and really to incorporate because that's helping us be in ventral and assisting our nervous system and that it is so human and vital.

You can see how fraught with challenge it is because I may be in a place where I'm longing for that and you may be in a place where that feels dangerous. Right? That happens. Those mismatches happen all the time. At least having a language and a roadmap to navigate that helps me understand. Yes, you do still love me. And in this moment, you can't show up for me in the way that I’m longing for. That's okay. We'll figure it out. There's hope there that because we can name it, then we can begin to work with it.

And there's a coming back.

Yeah. I call ventral our home. So, we come home to ventral. I come home to ventral and then I offer that to you. Your nervous system feels that and we can come home and together. So, it's that sort of the process that we find our way home, and then we find our way together.

So beautiful. Thank you, Deb! I really, really appreciate the work you're doing in the world. And also, for spending your valuable time with us today. What would you like people to know about where they can learn more, what they can access?

Well, two things. The Polyvagal Institute has launched just in the past couple of months and we're getting lots of great content up for people to hear Steve talk and hear other people. Some of my courses are there. So, that's PolyvagalInstitute.org. More and more will be coming in. I'm excited about that. And then, my own website, RhythmOfRegulation.com. And a new website is coming in June. So, whenever you're listening to this, you may be at the website, and that's where, you know, I have a lot of my own content and both for therapists and for, you know, what I love to call curious human beings who just want to explore their own nervous system. Visit those sites and you can kind of see what's happening, download podcasts, interviews, free materials.

That's awesome. Active operator. Yes, please. And because what we're really talking about today is intimate adult romantic relationship but this is far more reaching in a way of parenting and leadership. I mean, you name it. It's whoever we come into contact with.

Right. That's a lovely thing to remember. No matter where I am moving through the world, I am sending signals to the nervous systems that I passed by. And if I am sending a signal of welcome and regulation, that ripples out into the world in very powerful ways, which I think is important to think about in the time we're living in right now.

When things seem overwhelming, when I have no idea how to fix the world that is so crazy and feels broken right now, if I can move through the world from a place of my own regulation and know that I'm sending that welcome to others, that feels good.

Lovely. Well said. Well, I will make sure to have all of the links that you've mentioned, as well as links to your books, as well as how to get training because I know there are therapists that listened to the show. And again, thank you so, so much.

It was such a delight. Thank you.

Signing Off

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