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Authentic relating refers to how you express your own authentic self, the way you seek the same from your partner, and the dynamic created in between. Sara Ness, an internationally acclaimed facilitator, teacher, and community-builder popularized the field of Authentic Relating through the use of authentic relating games. 

The values of authentic relating include awareness, empathy, honesty, and the importance of creating space. Not only does this help romantic relationships blossom into their most authentic forms, but it also helps multinational organizations like Google, Mindvalley, and Burning Man grow in authentic leadership and communication.  

Sara Ness wrote the source text for Authentic Relating and has worked with tens of thousands of students in more than 100 communities on every continent except Antarctica.

In this Episode 

• 04:12 Authentic relating involves 3 perspectives: ourselves (authenticity), the other person and how we relate, and the space in between. There is a constant feeling out of how much of our authentic truth we bring and seek, and the synergy between.
• 08:39 Authentic relating games like Withholds and Appreciations allow you to look at your relationship instead of simply being in it. These exercises reveal, through honest communication, relationship patterns that may act as barriers in relationship.
• 13:11 The Noticing game puts to words the feelings, sensations, and lines of thoughts you have with your partner. It reveals the idea of presence in connection with someone else.
• 18:04 Authenticity has layers and is congruent to the values we are committed to. Your values will dictate the level and kind of authenticity you respond from. 
• 22:00 Authentic relating exercises are also effective within multinational companies like Google, as well as the addiction recovery space and diversity discussions.
• 25:08 It is even possible to use authentic relating games to actually meet your romantic partner because it teaches how to set boundaries, make requests, and discover your values within a relationship.
• 30:54 Knowing what helps you recover from a trigger before it even happens is one of the most powerful things you can do in relationship. 
• 33:36 Making a request is about changing behavior. This must be navigated caringly as different people and social cultures may have different ways of communication. Space must be created for these behaviors to change.
• 39:40 The act of making request is complex and involves vulnerability. Sometimes there is a need to go through conflict to figure out what your request truly is.
• 43:37 How to get in touch with Sara and learn more about Authentic Relating

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Awareness and acceptance are the first steps in authenticity. Notice when you are having a reaction and recognize it instead of pushing it away and blaming it immediately. 
• It is effective to have conversations about your own triggers and reactions early into a relationship. This sets a frame so that both partners know how to create space and handle when the other gets triggered. 
• Knowing what you really want is a rare and difficult psychological achievement. There is value in trying experiments to uncover what it is that you truly want and need.
• Getting frustrated and blaming are not effective in getting your needs met. Try to make a request with a lot of openness instead and realize how much authentic communication you receive after that.
• Making an honest request, even a sexual request, may be better done ahead of time instead of in the moment. This allows previously recognized triggers and overwhelm to pass over and acts as a practice for authentic relating in the future.

Mentioned

ERP 215: How to Deal with  Being “Alone Together”

ERP 216: What to Know about Loneliness and Relationship

ERP 273: How to Handle The Concern Of Vulnerability Not Working In Relationship

The Authentic Revolution website

The Authentic Revolution Instagram page

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

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Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About Today's Show

Sara, thank you for joining us today. 

Of course, I've been excited to. 

Yes! And it sounds like you're really helping us understand more about authentic relating. Can you tell us a little bit about what you refer to with authentic relating, and where you're coming from with this perspective?

For sure. I feel like I define it differently every time I talk about it, which is part of the fun of it. But the way I see it, we've got three different perspectives that we can approach relationships from, whether romantic or otherwise. We have ourselves which is authenticity. We have the other person, which is how we relate. And then, we have this space that emerges between us when we do both of those. And there's this constant feeling out, I think. How much of myself do I bring? How much of my authentic truth? How much do I go over to the other and find out what's happening in them? The empathy or relating. And then, the synergy of those creates our “we.”

Because usually when we meet someone or a group of people, we don't know where they come from in terms of like their social background or their upbringing or not all of it. We don't know what they consider normal. Like, how many questions can I ask them? How vulnerable can I ask them to be? Can I be loud in this place? Can I crack jokes? Whatever it is. 5:15

And so, we kind of go to the lowest common denominator that we think will be safe. Like, “Okay. I know this set of questions socially is acceptable.” So, I'm going to lead with them and ask, how are you instead of what was the difficult part of your day? Or what are you really passionate about that you don't usually talk about? Because I don't know if they're going to be okay with those, right? 

So, authentic relating gives us formats, where we know the rules, and the rules are a little bit different. Like, here's a set of questions to ask. Or, you're just going to Google the other person as if they're a search bar and they're going to tell you what results come up of their memories or associations. Or, you're going to play the noticing game, where you're going to go back and forth, noticing how you feel in this moment with each other and how your interaction changes those feelings. 

In relationship, it can be really powerful because no matter how long you've been with somebody, if you put an artificial constraint on the social rules, all of a sudden, you have a whole different realm of them that you can explore that you sometimes have never been able to before. Like, I played that Google game that I just described with partners, with family. And if I google something my partner has never told me about, if I say like, I'm going to Google you in mountain bikes, and it turns out that they had a passion for mountain bikes when they were young, I probably never knew to ask about that.

It's so true. Just this layering of unpacking what's available. I love that this can be really supportive for people that are just entering into getting to know each other, whether or not it's in a community, or even a community that's already established and deepening in the relating, or even an established romantic relationship, which was largely what people listening to this show are interested in. And it sounds like there's just a new territory or a new frontier that can be accessed that if we're out of our routines, or out of our norm, we can begin to explore.

Yeah. It's fun because you can kind of drop a game in anywhere and any period of time. The other thing that it allows for is some of the games or the ways of being and the communication skills that are practiced through them, they give us the opportunity to look at the relationship instead of just being in it.

Like for instance, with my partner, I really oftentimes, I want to play games. They're called games but it's almost a way to make them easier. They're like exercises, practices, ways of life, whatever you want to call them. 

One of them is called withholds and appreciations. It's a format I love using in partnership. With some partners, I've done it every week, where first we'll go back and forth and we'll share appreciations for each other for things in our relationship or things that have happened in that week where we felt supported or whatever it was. And then, we'll share what's called withholds which are usually small things, sometimes big, that are keeping us from deeper connection with each other. 

“When you close the door really hard when you leave, it's kind of jarring to me.” It's not such a big thing. I'm going to bring it up in the moment sometimes, but it's kind of like the smudge is on the window between us. 

My partner, his association with having things like withholds told to him when he was young was like, if he gets sat down, if he has someone say like, “Hey, can we talk about withholds?” Or, “Can we talk about things that are going on in the relationship?” When he was young, that meant that either somebody was dying, or there was a serious accident. It wasn't a light thing. And so, one of the ways that we've used authentic relating is to talk about our patterns in relationship. 

What does it mean to you when I say, “Hey, can we talk about this?” Or, “Do you have time to sit down for 30 minutes this evening, or whatever?” We've been able to negotiate a little more. How can I say that to have you feel safe? What words can I use? How much lead time do you need to have a conversation like that? That's been really profound.

Sara, in your experience, do you feel that people do this organically or naturally? Are you finding most people aren't having the steps of conversation?

I think it depends on the person. A lot of people, when they encounter authentic relating, they go, “Oh, wow, I didn't know that you could do this.” Like, “I didn't know you could have this depth, especially with strangers.” Although I'll say sometimes it's easier with strangers. It sometimes can be easier to be really honest with someone if you don't think you're going to see them again. 

It's a type of communication skills that are not always so intensive or heavy as things like nonviolent communication, for instance, which I love. But it's kind of a structured format. The games can be sometimes a little more light or different forms. And so, people will be surprised at how many different ways there are to play in connection. 

But some people, when they find it, they go, “Oh, my gosh, this is what I've been doing all my life. And I just didn't know that other people were doing it. I couldn't find other people that related with me in this way.” Those are actually my favorite moments because I feel like I get to introduce people to their tribe.

Nice. How did you get interested in this work? 

Yeah, I stumbled on it. I was in college, and I was living in cooperative housing. I got really interested in how people live and coexist together, how they make decisions together, how you get 17-20 something year old in a house and not have them blow up, which would happen fairly frequently.

Well, there's got to be a way to do this. And so, that was kind of spinning around in the back of my head. I started studying intentional living communities. I travelled across the US and visited 30 different ones and tried to understand what they were doing. 

Along the way, one community took me to my first ecstatic dance. I met this guy there. I fell head over heels for him. He had just been through this program in Boulder and came away with this little manual of authentic relating games. He wanted to introduce them to the ecstatic dance community in Houston, where he lived. 

At first, I just wanted to do it because I wanted to do anything he liked. And then, I remember the first game we played was the noticing game, which is really simple. You just go back and forth and you say, “Being with you, I notice…” And then, hearing that “I notice.” You keep going back and forth hearing that “I noticed”, hearing that “I noticed”. 

The things you notice are anything happening in the present moment. So, sensations in the body, feelings, like a headline of thoughts. It was the first time I'd ever been introduced to this idea of presence in connection with someone else. 

I think I knew about meditation but I'd never done that with someone and actually gotten to notice how my experience changed in the space of transcendence that we got to, where there was almost no distinction between him and me. I have really severe social anxiety. So, the other thing that I found is when I was doing these games, because the rules were defined, it was the first time in my life, that I didn't feel anxious. I realized how much of my anxiety came from just not knowing the social rules. So, it was this whole different world that I'd never experienced before. Like, growing up very intellectual in a family of scientists. Honor student all the way, won prizes but never understood that there was this world of emotions, embodiment, presence, communication, norms I could learn. I really just fell in love with it. 

My experience of academia and intellectual, like I love those endeavors and it tends to take me outwards. When you're talking about this presencing and the moment of being in the noticing, for me, I turn inwards. I'm aware of nuances and subtleties that if I'm outwardly focused, I might be totally missing or even ignoring.

Yeah. I mean, I thought I was going to go into psychological research and be an academic. When I found communication and emotional intelligence practices, I was like, “Wait a second. This is the most intellectually fascinating thing I could possibly learn.” Because I have no knowledge of it. I don't know, anything that's happening in my body. And the field of human interaction is the most complex thing I could imagine. My brain and my body were like, “This is something we can chew on for the rest of our lives. Why would we do anything else?”

I love that in the last 10 to 15 years, there's been so much more awareness and research around emotional intelligence, relating, the presencing, and the mindfulness. It's very supported in many different disciplines. Right? Can you help though, as you're talking about your own experience, have you found that to be true? How long have you been practicing? Do you still find it to be as enriching? Probably, it continues to evolve. But does it continue your practices, continue to be this passionate for you, or enlivening for you?

Yeah. Definitely, yes. They've been really passionate and enlivening. I still play games a lot when I get together with friends and in community. The places that I've been really interested in the last couple of years are; What are kind of the norms behind authentic relating? How do different people practice it differently? What's happening in people that don't like authentic relating? What type of communication style are they using that's equally authentic to them? 

For example, authentic relators don't love people that do small talk. And so, I've gotten really interested in what are people's motivation to do small talk? How do I relate with them? How do I show up for with them authentically? So, I've been working on a communication topology lately. I'm kind of excited about that. And then, the other piece is understanding how to translate this to the mainstream because communication and emotional intelligence practices can be kind of fringe. And even though companies are now talking about psychological safety and meditation and using all the right words, there's still not a real willingness to slow down enough to do the kind of exploration that actually creates deeper relationship because it takes time.

Even in terms of like, do you prefer to receive feedback over email or in person with warning, without warning, with appreciation at the front by being asked questions, whatever it is. There's a lot of nuances in how we communicate. 

Right. When you talk about the business sector, it feels as though, at least in the paradigms that have existed, it's almost counter to capitalism. I hope that we can learn a lot from this level of presencing, and that there could be some evolution there. 

On a side I have a question for you, Sara. I know that there's people who struggle with, for example, someone saying, “Well, I'm just being authentic.” Perhaps what they're describing is a reaction or a perception. And there's different layers of authentic experience. I'm wondering if you can speak to that, because in my understanding, there's deeper core layers that are primary emotions. And then we have secondary emotions, we have our reactions, we have our tendencies, we have our interpretations and all of that stuff. Can you help me with where you're coming from with that?

Sure. I can tell you have a lot of research, reading, and studying you've done behind it. I can tell it's going to be fun to talk to you about it. 

First of all, when someone says, “I'm just being authentic.” It's usually never a good sign because it usually means they've just kind of thrown their truth at someone, and then the other person had a bad reaction and now they're trying to kind of apologize for it without really apologizing. Or defend, like, “Hey, I have a right to have a feeling or reaction or whatever.” 

That's why I kind of like the combination between authenticity and relating, which is like, you can totally tell somebody, something, they're not going to like hearing or say it in a way that's going to be blunt, without really figuring out like what their communication style is. You're just probably going to get a bad reaction to it. But that doesn't mean it's not authentic. However, like you're saying, there are different layers of what we call authenticity. And the way I'm seeing it these days is you can have authenticity with your feelings, and/or you can have authenticity with your values. Feelings change pretty frequently. It's not inauthentic to come to my partner and say, “Hey, I'm really frustrated with you for this.” But that frustration may change. As soon as I understand their point of view, or as soon as I get more information, or as soon as I sit on it for a night. You're right that I need to eat something, I needed to sleep, or whatever.

So, authenticity or congruence with our values, I find more interesting these days because that's really going into understanding what is it that we are committed to. If in relationship my commitment actually is, I want a space where I feel really free and open to express whatever is there for me, and I'm in alignment with that with my partner, like we've both agreed that they are bought into me holding that value, whether or not they hold it, then totally I can come to them at any time and say, “I'm really frustrated.” Even if it's an in the moment emotion. 

But if my value is something like I want to be kind and considerate in relationship, then I might not lead with that frustration. Instead, I might try to sit with it enough that I can come with curiosity instead. Like, “Hey, this thing happened. I feel frustrated but I'd love to hear what was happening for you.” I'm still saying the same thing but I'm saying it with a very different intonation. And that's based on taking the time to put a little thought behind it instead of just reacting and go, what level of authenticity or what kind of authenticity do I want to be responding from. And that's hard. It takes practice.

It does take practice. As you're describing, any relationship than the space between as you describe the “we”, it might look different with different people. I might talk about frustration differently with you than I would with someone else. Right? And that is a unique expression of the relationship and the “we”, would you say?

Yeah. And taking the time to figure that out and discuss it just makes everything easier later on.

Okay. So, just to kind of also get some context. It sounds like a lot of the authentic relating is in community. What are some of the other applications? Because, you know, this conversation is a little more geared towards romantic relationship. I would love to see how these exercises, practices, and games can support intimate relationship. But also, just for context, how is it being applied? I mean, you mentioned a few, but is there anything else you want to say about the work per se?

Yeah, for sure. It's a worldwide movement. There are authentic relating communities on six continents. There's at least, I think, 40 communities in as many cities. I actually don't know where all of them are because of really high emphasis of both me who I'd see as like the kind of person who most popularized the practices by writing the source text. 

After I got the original games manual, I started compiling games that my community was inventing and other communities were in. Overtime, it's grown into this manual of more than 250 games and variations. That's what most communities use. But both I and Decker, who I'd see is the person who first started using the phrase and first did the first games nights have had a really high emphasis on keeping it open source and decentralized. So, people take the manual and they use it in all sorts of places. 

There are tens, probably hundreds of thousands of people that have experienced it now and tens of thousands that do every year just from those communities. Someone recently just translated the games manual to Russian. There are folks that are working on translating it into German. 

Places it's used as in the last couple of years. I know at least 10 people that are using it in companies as like executive consultants or within companies. I have a friend who is doing it with the senior management at Dell. I have worked with Google. There's a number of teams at Google leaders that have used the practices. I've done retreats at Mindvalley. And so, it's starting to get more known within companies. 

There's some really interesting application being done within addiction recovery right now. There's an organization called seek healing that we work with, that has this focus on the idea that the opposite of addiction is connection. There's a lot of research that addiction is, if not caused by it, like deeply exacerbated by loneliness. And then, that loneliness has a health effect at an equivalent of something like smoking a pack of cigarettes a day. It's kind of ridiculous, the effects that it has. 

And now, both health systems and even countries are starting to see loneliness as an actual health problem. And so, seek healing is doing programs using authentic relating, and its sister practice circling to do addiction recovery groups. That's one of my favorite applications that's happening. I know it's being it's been used in cross-cultural discussions and diversity discussions. Yeah, it's kind of popping up all over the place.

Wonderful. How are you seeing it being utilized in intimate relationship? 

A lot of times, just informally, like I know a lot of friends who have met their partners at a games event, or have used the practices with their partners. My favorite stories of it actually is, I have this course called the Authentic Life Course. It breaks down the essential principles of authentic relating into something that you can instantly apply. So, how do you set boundaries? How do you make requests? How do you discover your values? 

We've gotten a lot of reports from people. My favorite one was this woman in Backwoods Georgia, I think, who had found one of my videos on YouTube and just signed up for the course. She had never experienced, like, actually making requests, like making clear requests from her husband before. Or like setting boundaries or talking about the relationship. It was just utterly transformative that she could do that. 

A lot of people in those courses notice, like, they've never been making really clear requests, or they've never really set a boundary with their kids. That was not like a limit of “you must do this” but a boundary of “here's what I'm going to do.” Like, “If you don't do the dishes, I'm not going to make dinner tomorrow.” Instead of, “If you don't do the dishes, you're going to bed without supper.” We can force other people's behavior with kids but not so much with adults.” In the long term, we can't control other people. So, helping people understand those distinctions in relationship. 

I had some of my friends the other day who use authentic relating in relationship counselling. They timed their argument. They were really excited because they managed to have a 15-minute-long argument. It's like they had gotten to a point of just being able to clear things really, really quickly with each other because of the practices that they learned of listening and of being curious, under pressure, and of like, you know, asking for space to speak their truth, and listening to each other generously. 

My favorite thing about authentic relating is when people come to an event or they experience it, or they try a game, and then they never come back but they use it in every part of their life. Like, I hear later on about the babies that are born and the relationships. I like seeing my friends using the principles in their relationships. So, it really kind of just seems to have an osmosis effect when you have a reference experience of what good relationship can look and feel like. Carry that in every part of your life.

Right. The ripple effect is enormous. I love it. As I'm listening too, do you help in guiding people that might feel triggered at some point or have a nervous system response of maybe going into that fight or flight or feeling dysregulated? Do you offer any help around that for people that are maybe engaging and relating and feel themselves kind of losing their ground and the capacity to maybe be stable and being able to engage in the practice?

Yeah, for sure. I guess I can mostly speak to my own experience there. The first step of it is just awareness and acceptance. Noticing that I'm having a reaction and being okay with the fact that that's happening, or at least recognizing it and not instantly pushing it away and blaming it.

Or trying to keep moving forward and denying or suppressing that it's happening. I'm noticing my heart is starting to race and I'm getting sweaty, or whatever it is.

Exactly. I'm not wrong for that. I'm not bad for that. It's not going to ruin my relationship. Recognizing that and taking a breath into it saying, “Hey, can we take a pause for a second?” And that being acceptable in relationship. Just kind of debrief. One thing I find really helpful with this is having those conversations with partners or people in my life ahead of time. Like, “Hey, here's how you notice if I'm triggered. You're going to notice me get more tense. You're going to notice my body closing. I'm going to have a harder time finding my words.” It’s pre-framing that and letting them know even, here's what I could use. Like, can you pause me? Can you check in with me and ask how I'm doing? Can you call a pause? So, one thing is just setting the frame so someone else can hold it with me when I'm triggered? Or, for me. 

Whenever I do facilitation trainings, actually, I always start out by bringing my leads together and saying, like, “What is it going to look like when you get triggered? What can we do to help?” Just anticipating that's going to happen. It's probably going to happen in front of the group. So, those conversations. And then, yeah, in that moment of trigger, creating space is the main thing because like, as you know, if you're triggered, you can't relate. There's not the empathy possible in our brains. We don't have the capacity in those moments. And so, just trying to ride past it can usually be, if not destructive, at least not helpful. I also like finding what are ways that I can communicate well. Like, something I know about myself as I get really triggered, especially in business connections, especially with men, I will freeze in a tough conversation. I'll just go into like, tend and befriend. I’ll just agree or whatever. And then, it causes a lot of friction later. So, I've actually learned that it's really good for me to communicate over a voice message, over a text. I need to do a better job of pre-framing with those things and being like, “Hey, are you open for it?” Like, asking consent. Definitely made that mistake sometimes recently. But knowing what helps me before I get to the point where I'm triggered, I think is one of the most powerful things we can do.

Whether that's touch or for them to set a timer and just have them listen for five minutes and then reflect what they heard. To have a mediator there, whatever it is.

Do you find that perhaps in the beginning, two people struggle with even knowing what they want? 

Oh my God, yes! There's some quote that might be by Maslow. “Knowing what we want is a rare and difficult psychological achievement.” That just feels so true. Somehow our culture tells us that we're supposed to have a clear idea of what we want and be able to ask for it. I think that is such bullshit. So, yeah. It feels like feeling around in a dark room. Sometimes finding the edges of something. And then like, continuing to feel that out and making a request and knowing I might have to take it back. What I call it is trying experiments, not making requests. Like, let me try and experiment what happens if for the next couple of days, I just say no to your requests, because I don't know if I'm able to hold on to myself when I say yes. Or what if for the rest of this conversation, you just asked me questions if you can do that, or whatever it is. I think we have to try it before we know what we want and need. And what we want and need is going to be situational. There's going to be different requests all the time with different people.

I so agree with you that if there isn't a clear alignment of this is what would help, this is what I want to make a request around, and we are rooting around in the dark, perhaps, that there is some thread. There could be just even curiosity of like, “I've seen somebody else do this. It kind of resonates. And I want to experiment with it.” Or whatever the lead is that there's permission there to explore through just a spark even or just even at wandering and following that thread and getting more information.

Yeah. And also, you said earlier about the kind of like, “I'm just being authentic.” sort of thing. There's a way we can do that even with requests, where we're like, “Here's what I need.” Rather than approaching it almost like a negotiation or a conversation with the other person. 

There are definitely some points where requests and boundaries have to be set for basic safety, or the other person just isn't listening to my requests in a way that I have tried and can navigate around. That's definitely a situation. I don't want to say that everything can be worked out in conversation or relationship. 

But asking, like making a request, and then saying like, how does that sound to you? Like, does that feel like something you can do? Is that clear enough that you know what I'm asking for? Because sometimes if I'm like, “Can you just be more kind to me?” The other person doesn't know what that means. Or something even like, “Can you ask me questions for the next week? Ask me a couple more.” That's going to be actually a hard thing. Whenever we're asking someone to change an ongoing behavior, that's a really hard thing to do. We have to create a way of reminding them of it or helping them with it or them creating a reminder for themselves. We have to have space for those habits to have time to change. 

Actually, doing that navigation very caringly of if I have a request, I also want to stick with my partner enough to make sure they understand and can actually fulfil on that request. And that they are consenting to do it. When I go through that process, amazing things happen. 

I am in a relationship with someone who has a very, very different social culture than me. It's actually why I developed the communication typology I've been working on is because I felt so offended constantly by him in his community. I was like, “What the hell guys? Nobody here ever asked me questions.” My community is all about question asking and holding space, emotional expression, and like, no questions. I just took it as so rude until I really started realizing, “Wait a second. This is a different form of communication.” If I want him to ask me questions, I actually have to make that a clear request and help him understand what kind of questions, how often, and can I set up a game where that's possible? Can I remind him? I had to decide. Was that a non-negotiable for me in relationship? 

And it's actually just been one of the greatest learning experiences for me to relate with someone whose mode is more like joking and storytelling and creating things, and a community that's more about that, and having to really develop a different style and make an intentional decision to do that. 

I love those examples. Thank you for sharing that. Because I think it is so relevant to what people feel whether or not it is a cultural difference or whether or not there's even, you name the difference that might lead towards that experience of one person. Just like if you have something to say, just say it. Like, “let's just talk” versus “I want to be asked a question. I want to be invited to speak. I want to feel driven.” And that, you know, it could feel like a major conflict. And yet, you're still exploring how to set it up for success, how to be more specific, rather than a global request that feels really difficult to attain. And it's participating in your getting your needs met too. It sounds like you're an active participant.

Yeah, absolutely. It's really easy to kind of just put a request on to someone and then blame them if they don't do it. But I'm the person that loses out when I do that. I'm the one who doesn't get what I want. 

It sounds like it's still a little bit in process, but are you feeling it open?

Oh, yeah. All the time. I had a wonderful moment last night, where we had a conversation, joking back and forth on Facebook. And then, at the end of the conversation, I took a bit of a risk. I was like, “Hey, I want you to respond to two questions. I want you to tell me what you're most excited about tomorrow and what you love most about me today?” 

He answered them, and then he gave me two questions. I felt so delighted. I answered them. Then I was like, “I really appreciate that you asked me questions.” I reinforced it. And I'll say like, I've made requests around this and I really appreciate that you remembered it. That's meaningful to me. But I'll also have moments where I straight up to say like, “Will you ask me some questions? And that feels really weird and awkward and vulnerable, but then he does it. And then, that creates norms for us for later on. It's really been an amazing practice also to realize that we can ask for those things. Like, the other day he said, “I just noticed you haven't done something romantic for me in a while. Will you take me out on a date?” And I was so delighted to get that request. It was like, “Of course, I will.”

So, there's a lot of figuring out that, because we're not on the same page naturally, I can communicate about a lot of things that historically I haven't had to. It's actually helped me take away a lot of bad behaviors of passive communication, where I would just expect the other person to meet my needs, and they get frustrated if they didn't. Having to ask and having the requests that she received with a lot of openness has really helped up level my communication. 

Thank you for sharing that. I also love in your example that there isn't this, “I'm already upset with you. You've already done something wrong. I'm going to tell you about it.” It's hard because if there's not a request that's Invitational, then it's like, “I didn't even get a shot. I didn't even know that you wanted it and now you're upset with me.” Like, there's the opportunity door gets really closed when we're already blaming and shaming someone. And obviously, that's going to probably lead to defensiveness rather than somebody really wanting to support. I love that there's this positive positivity in the request and almost holding value for, like you said, values holding value for that need of yours and offering up and being very Invitational. That makes it, like to your point, like a game or makes it play. I think that is such a game changer.

Yeah. If we go back to the conversation about authenticity with feelings versus values, I just have a really high value on effectiveness. Weirdness it is to say. It's like blaming someone isn't effective for getting my needs met. 

True. 

Yeah, it just doesn't. There are times when it's like, my value is actually on being allowed to express myself and being allowed to blame because when I don't, I can sometimes not even be able to figure out what my requests are if I can't get angry. And so, sometimes I will kind of. I won't be clear about my requests or I will get upset. He'll say, “Well, you didn't ask that.” I'll be like, “Well, you didn't hear. I wish you had asked about it or whatever it was.” We'll have conflict for a while because in those moments for me to allow myself to get angry is also a value.

It's also, we learn from discontent as well as longing. Right? I think they are both good teachers. It's like you said, it's learning. I think a lot of people struggle, Sara, with being proactive about a request, because they're like, “I don't want to have to ask for it because then it doesn't mean as much.” 

Of course, yeah. 

I don't experience that to be true. People largely aren't giving lip service. Unless you're trying to get out of a conflict. If you're saying I would love to be asked questions, I think it might be awkward for somebody or they might fumble around it a little bit, but they're going to find their own genuine voice usually. Do you want to say anything to that?

Yeah, mostly just that it's complex. I also have that experience. The act of asking is so vulnerable that it's really hard for me to open up and receive afterwards. I get an instant wave most of the time of guilt, and self-consciousness. It takes a while after making that request for me even to be open to getting what I asked for. 

Yeah, the receiving. 

I think that's just a way that most, especially women, I'm not sure if men have the same experience, but I think it's a way that a lot of us work, where it might take me a minute of making the request and then just like sitting with the fact that I got it and checking. But like, “Are you really okay with it?” I don't want to check on those five times but just like, you know, checking, and then like, having my partner respond like, “Well, why would you like to do this if it's a desire of yours?” Or like, “How do you feel about me making that request and just being in that moment for a minute of what it means to get a request responding to before it happens?” 

And over time, as I begin to trust that my partner does want to do it, it gets easier. Like, that kind of instant pullback with my partner has gotten easier. But especially when it comes to things like sexual requests, like, I actually oftentimes have to have that negotiation ahead of time. Because I know that if I make a request in the moment, I'm going to shut down. But I can talk about it ahead of time, you know, whether it's a day or a week, or just like right in the moment, before something starts and being like, “Hey, this is something I would enjoy.” Like, how do you feel about that? And like, when would that happen? That can be really amazing.

Thank you for sharing that. It does sound like that slowing down can assist in these places that are really new. We might shrink back from a little bit or feel overwhelmed by. And also, just in the practice, we gain more access and feel more comfort and can potentially engage more and receive more. 

Yeah. 

Awesome. So, Sara, so as we start winding down, is there anything else you want to say before we turn towards how people can get in touch with this work?

Just that this was really fun. I don't often talk about my work as applied to relationships just because I feel like there's so many amazing relationship teachers out there already that I feel kind of self-conscious taking up airtime on it. So, it was really just a blast to get to talk with you and play with some of these topics. 

Lovely. Well, I'm happy that this has been fun. I've enjoyed it as well. Yes. I think a lot of these just fundamental relationship skills translate as you're seeing the application being successful. It's so important. And so, for couples, is there a way that they can access this? Would you recommend that they get involved in a community? I guess, can you speak to both? Couples and if people want to participate in community, how do people do either or both?

Yeah, if people want to participate in community, definitely recommend it. To find out about the community is if you go into the resources section of my website, which is authrev.org. Like, short for authentic revolution. It's kind of terribly laid out right now but I think there's a section where you'll find a link to a map on what communities exist that I know of. 

And in terms of how couples and also, because a lot of that's not happening during the pandemic, we have an online platform where you can go and you can play games, and you can do circling, which is a related practice. We've got four to five events every day. That's called COnnect. That's also on the website. 

The thing I found most helpful for couples is the Authentic Life Course, which I mentioned earlier, which is like a communication skill, like connection course that is seven weeks long. It's coached and you get new videos and practices every week. And then you have a call to work on some exercises and do Q&A with the coach. And then, you have a call with me once a month. 

We have a lot of folks go through that in their partnerships and do it with each other. Or if your partner doesn't want to do it with you, it's also really helpful just to go through it by yourself, because you'll start using those skills naturally. There are bite sized versions of that called Authentic Communication Essentials that you can also do without a coach that are just one or two weeks of how to deepen conversations or make requests or be more authentic. So, those are all up on the site under courses. 

Nice. And the life course, is that one to one, or is that in a group?

It's in a group. There's usually 12 to 16 people in a cohort. But a lot of the practices are built to do with a partner you have in your life. It's kind of geared knowing that new skills are hard to integrate. And then, optionally, you can be put with a partner to do the exercises and practices together. That's kind of to give a safe space with someone else who's doing the same practices and understanding. Or you can do it with your romantic partner. And then every week, there are little tracking exercises of like, you know, what requests have you made? Or like, what are you noticing about your social environment and who you think you have to be versus who you want to be? Or, you know, practice setting tiny boundaries with people and here's how to do it, here's what to do if it goes wrong, and all of those things. 

Wonderful. That sounds so dynamic and supportive on many levels. I hope that if people are listening and feeling drawn that they can go to your website. I'll make sure to have the website link on today's show notes. And are you also on social media?

Yep. If you look up Authentic Revolution on social media, or I think it's @TheAuthenticRevolution on Instagram, you can find us.

Perfect. I’ll again put those links on today's show notes. Sara, thank you for sharing your time with us today. 

Absolutely. Thanks, Jessica. This was a lot of fun. I really enjoyed talking.

Signing Off

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