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It is common for codependent people to be people pleasers. While this strategy is effective at avoiding conflict, it also builds up anger and resentment that your partner may not even know about. Michelle Farris is a licensed psychotherapist, anger management specialist, and course creator. She discusses how letting go of codependence is not an easy task as the anger that so often accompanies codependence feels too familiar.

Toxic codependence does not have to be a permanent reality. Michelle explains that therapy provides a safe space to work out the root cause of your pain and allows you to go through the complex process of recovery. Michelle's work helps codependent people trust themselves and create mutually satisfying relationships. She has been featured on Psych Central, Bustle, Your Tango, The Good Men Project, and The Daily Positive to name a few.  

In this Episode 

• 07:18 Codependency is a relationship pattern that focuses on others at the expense of yourself. It relies on external validation. Recovery helps people discover their personal identities.
• 08:58 Identifying the traits of codependence that are hurting you is the first step of recovery. It may take years to become ready to let go as there is a painful withdrawal process that must be undertaken.
• 15:50 Saying no takes practice. Start with the safest people who are okay with you saying no and start with the “baby nos.”
• 18:26 Codependent people may not relate with the word anger, as it may be too scary, but can typically relate with resentment. 
• 21:14 Voicing what hurt you is a liberating experience. It has the potential of changing the dynamics of your relationship because it creates awareness of what you're feeling, something which may not have been apparent before.
• 24:49 Codependents don't go to anger immediately. It is, in many ways, a secondary emotion that comes after hurt. But festering anger and feelings of being a victim begin with hurt not being handled in the first place.
• 29:04 When anger leads to rage it is critical to be mindful. It is probably not the best time to talk and you may need to take some time off and walk away before returning.
• 32:10 Anger at oneself is tricky territory. It's important to have a safe community, perhaps in therapy, where you are validated that you did the best you can given your circumstances and you can make a different choice when you are ready. 
• 34:15 Recovery involves fixing your relationship with yourself, improving your relationship skills, and doing the childhood work. This is not linear and the issues with each aspect happen at the same time, making recovery a complex endeavor.
• 37:03 An addiction to relationship is additionally complex as having it is a biological necessity. However, what therapy does is lessen the dependence on other people.  
• 42:17 Receiving a favor is a practice that not only helps you take care of yourself but also allows others to be present in your life. 
• 44:46 How to get in touch with Michelle and learn more about Counseling Recovery

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• You'll know a yes is really a no when, after you say yes to a request, you immediately feel resentful. But if saying yes evokes a feeling that yes, it was hard but it was worth it, then the resentment that could build up years down the road is avoided.
• You can start saying no with the small things. For example, you can express a different opinion on where you want to have lunch instead of just agreeing which is your default.
• If voicing your hurt is too difficult, you can try writing a letter. Measure the success of this not on their reaction but on the fact that this is a huge risk you took with the intention of jumpstarting your healing.
• Naming your anger has to be specific towards particular behaviors. Being vague leaves it open to interpretation and will lead to defensiveness. Naming your partner's behaviors without judging them for it makes them accountable for their actions.
• If anger is causing dysregulation, it is effective to step away first. You can try taking a walk and talking to yourself to work out your feelings instead of stuffing it down that can lead to rage. 
• Allow yourself to receive. Let yourself ask for a favor. These things go a long way in allowing you to make sure you are taking care of yourself and lets your partner know they are worthy.

Mentioned

Counseling Recovery Website

ERP 260: How to Break Free from Codependency in a Relationship – an Interview with Sherry Gaba

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

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About Today's Show

Michelle, thank you for joining us today.

Oh, thank you so much, Jessica. I'm so happy to be here.

I'm excited about our conversation. I feel as though codependency and also how it relates to anger is such a specific topic. I think listeners really appreciate being able to dive a little deeper, because sometimes on a podcast episode, we can only cover so much. So, I think it's a real gift that we're going to kind of zone in on an area. I would love to just get some sense of these terms.

But before we go to the topic, I would love to just get to know you a little bit better. What got you interested in looking at codependency and how it relates to anger? Where are you coming from when you started doing this?

And so, when I became a therapist, I really knew I wanted to dive into that issue. And then, the whole anger came in because I grew up not having my anger. I mean, I grew up with someone who raged so my response to that was, “Thank you very much. I'm not having any anger.” And, of course, that was just as unhealthy.

Sometimes, I think, we think if we do the opposite of a dysfunctional behavior it's going to be healthy. And really, in the middle is where the health is not at the other extreme. To me, it was really interesting to look at the recovery process and how hard and yet how valuable anger is in that process of recovery.

So, so important. Okay. So, let's get a little oriented with you around what are you seeing as codependency. I know it's a term that people use. Some people are like, “This should be in the DSM.” It's like very legitimate and other people are casually talking about it as behavioral traits. So, where are you coming from with the term?

So, instead of having a solid sense of self, you're looking outside of yourself for that validation, for that approval. That can be in other people, but it can also be in what we do. That's why a lot of codependent people relate to being human doings rather than human beings because they don't know who they are but they know how to get love and approval by doing things for others. So, in recovery, it can be really hard to undo that because they realize, “Well, how am I going to matter if I stop doing those things? That's part of recovery is to learn how to pull that back a bit.

It's huge. It's huge. I sometimes talk about this concept of terror barrier, which is used, I think, in many different arenas, but this idea of letting go, what's worked for us. Even if it hurts us, right? I guess I'm curious for you or the people you work with, how do you approach that terrifying spot of being willing to let go of some of those old tendencies and go into this unknown territory and be in recovery?

Well, I think the “letting go” is not something they're going to be willing to do at first. It's really in the beginning. It's about how do you identify what traits of codependency are hurting you? And even when we do, it's going to be a while before we actually are willing to change it. But the good thing about recovery is the more we look at ourselves, the more we realize, at some point, we're going to do the behavior, maybe 10, 20, 30, a hundred more times, and at some point, we're going to hit our limit and go, “You know what? I can't do that to myself one more time.”

If someone had told me, you got to let go your alcoholic boyfriend, when I first came into recovery, I would have said, “No, I'm going to fix him. I'm going to change him. I'm not going to let go.” That didn't help. But years later, I finally was willing to let go because I was ready. But even then, I needed a village of support to do that because most codependents are somewhat addicted to relationships, myself included. So, there's that whole withdrawal process that you go through. And you have to have a sense of self that's sturdy enough to withstand that pain. And that's why the recovery takes a while.

I love that. That's so key. There needs to be a steadiness to be able to approach this work. It kind of reminds me in a lot of the recovery work the stages of change, right? We're in pre-contemplation. We don’t even know that we're contemplating it, and then we are contemplating it. So many people think that, “Oh, if I have the insight, then I can just implement it so quickly. And you're really helping us.” We might be hip to this. We might recognize it and want to make change, but it might be a process that we'll just be noticing and watching. And then, we'll get to a point where we're really ready to make some changes and take action.

And that's so valuable what you're saying about the pre-contemplation mode. It's like most of us want to discard and go, “Oh, but I'm not doing anything.” But you are. You're ruminating about, “Okay, what isn't working?” “Oh, yeah. I am still people pleasing. I am still saying yes when I mean no.” But eventually, you're going to be so aware of that behavior that you're going to be willing to take a baby step away from it.

No kidding. And also, there's some level of discernment. I can say for myself when I started really embarking on really learning to set boundaries, and being willing to say no, and these types of things. I think in my young adult years it was like this inner intelligence system in me that I could recognize it is two parts. Because I think what's a little tricky with codependent tendencies or people pleasing is that we are in relationship and those things actually serve us and we probably like a lot of those being personable and relatable. And yet, when we're compromising ourselves, like you said, that's the big kind of difference. If we're putting ourselves at risk and compromising ourselves, then that's where it starts to become unhealthy or unhealthy patterns.

Right. But that's a really good point is in relationship, you're still going to want to please somebody. You're still going to maybe extend yourself when it may be inconvenient. That to me isn't codependency. It becomes codependency when I do it so much that I have no time left for myself, that it really is hurting me and detracting from me living my life. But if I'm going to extend myself, and I will, I will absolutely say yes sometimes when I really don't want to but I'm mindful that I'm doing it consciously for a specific reason. It's not because I have to. I can say no now.

Someone asked me the other day at church, “Oh, do you want to take on this position?” Heck, no, I don't.” I was super clear. And then, the “no” flew out of my mouth instead of “Oh, yeah, sure. I will.” And then being so resentful and consumed with frustration that I hate myself again.

Yes. Right. Okay. And there's something before we turn to the anger, there's something about what you're saying. It's almost like, “I know that I can say no if I want. If I’m choosing to say yes even when it's not convenient or I don't really necessarily feel like I want to, it's in service of a higher value. It's in alignment with the things that I want to invest in.” And like you said, there's a consciousness around it. I also know that I could say no, if I wanted to. Right? It's not like I am hold hostage by. Because I just was meeting with a client earlier today and she's like, “I don't know how to say no.” There’s fear of what's going to come back at her, feeling rejected. You said something really important out of the onset of this is just that I matter without the doing. Or that I don't have to earn or be lovable and likeable by what I do and how I give.

Right. Because if you can say no, it's so empowering. But we have to give up that idea of, “Oh, I'm being selfish.” or “Oh, I'm being mean.” And it's like, no. And most people that love us really are going to be okay hearing the no.

But if you can give and say, “You know what, I'm good.” Even afterwards like, “That was okay. It was hard but it was worth it.” Then, you're not going to have that resentment trail that's going to follow you for years down the road in the relationship. Because that's where codependents really shoot themselves in the foot is they say yes to people. And then they store so much hurt and resentment that they never get theirs back because they can't ask for what they want. And then, the other person has no idea that we're super hurt and resentful because we don't get what we want. But yet, we don't ask for it.

Right. I love you're saying some really important things, this discernment. I think that when we're first trying these things out, we're a little wobbly. Sometimes when we are in the habit of giving or in this habit of doing, we can even lose touch with ourselves, right? Like you were saying, “I don't even know what I want. I don't even know what's true for me.” And so, once we're practicing and then the learning curve, this is a really good barometer is, do I start to feel resentful? Am I feeling resentful? I love that. And then, I just want to underscore what you're saying. I was just saying this to the client I mentioned. People who really want to relate to you, they want to know who you are, and when it's not working, they want to know that. Right? It's like relationship and we're really for each other in this mutual give and take. I want to know when it's a no.

Right. Well, that's why I always tell people, “Start with the people who are safest because they're going to be totally okay with the no.” And do a baby no. Like, “Do you want to go to pizza or Chinese?” “Oh, I want to go to pizza.” Instead of saying, “Whatever you want.” Just those little things.

Again, I want to turn to the frustration and the anger because this is really key because as we start, we're really hoping to have this experience if we give and we’re people pleasing that it's going to come back to us. Right? That it’s this contract. The hope is that if I give, I'll receive. And when we're not feeling that or we're compromising ourselves, it's really easy to feel that resentment and the anger starting to build.

As it relates to feeling really terrified, I was going to ask you what helps with that. But you've already given us a couple tips around that one. It’s just giving yourself permission to have the process. Right? Sometimes we need to watch and observe ourselves. You're also saying start small, right? Do baby steps. Start with people that are safe. Is there anything else that you want to offer as just this recovery process and starting to really turn a corner? You also said getting a good support team? You've already listed three.

Oh, yes. That's huge. I think, especially in codependency recovery, it's really hard to do this work by yourself. So, to have al anon, or coda or a therapy group, or even you can get the Codependent No More book and work out of it with a couple of friends that are struggling with the same thing.

But the fear is really that false evidence appearing real. I always remind myself of that, that what I fear rarely actually happens. So, if I get scared to do a new behavior, maybe the starting point is just to acknowledge it to yourself. “Hey, I really would like to set this boundary but I'm too scared.” That's okay. That's that pre-contemplated mode that you're talking about that even if you're not ready to take the action, you're at least seeing that, “Hey, I actually want to do something new. I want to rectify this behavior.” That to me needs to have credit too. Not just the actually carrying out the boundary. Because sometimes that can be a couple of years down the road before we're ready to do that.

No kidding.

I believe in baby steps.

Yes. Yes. I have such compassion because I think at the root of this if we haven't known safety, and we've known potentially trauma or abuse or really difficult volatile circumstances growing up, right, this is how we protected ourselves. This is how we adapt. And so, to let go of those strategies can be really scary. And like you're saying, there's a process. If we rebuild safety, we can start to build that in and let the old atrophy. Great. All right. So, what do you see with anger and codependency? What do you see here?

I noticed codependent people typically don't see themselves as angry at all. For me, if someone had asked me, I would have said, “I'm not angry.” But inside I was resentful. I could relate to the word resentful. Sometimes, if you ask a codependent if they're resentful, they might reconsider that word. But anger can be too scary if their childhood was filled with rage or abuse. They're going to distance themselves from that because that's how the they react to that by becoming a people pleaser. So, if they please you, they're not going to get you upset. So, that's their whole plan, which unfortunately backfires because after a while you burn yourself out.

But eventually in recovery, their anger is going to show up. And even though when that happens, sometimes I think people get scared and go, “Oh my God. I shouldn't be feeling this way. Why am I so pissed at my sponsor? Why am I so angry at the person at the meeting?” But that's actually the turning point for the codependent. For them to say, you know what, that's not okay. I'm really annoyed. I celebrate that with them. Because that takes so much courage for the codependent to actually recognize that they don't like something or something is bothering them. So, to me, that's a real turning point because now we're getting to the authentic person of, “You know what? This is bothering me. This is who I am. I have some preferences here that I need to start honoring.”

On face value, it might look messy and uncomfortable and unpleasant. Why is all this coming up and judging it? And yet, you're almost saying this is the edges, right? These are our edges of ourselves that we're getting to know. It's a real testament to more safety and health that we get to experience that or feel that and then learn how to work with that differently.

Yeah. And you know, it doesn't mean you have to tell somebody you're angry yet. The beginning step is just acknowledging how you feel. Put a name to it. Don't just say uncomfortable. Although that might be the first step. “I'm uncomfortable.” Great. Maybe the next time you'll be annoyed. Maybe the next time you'll actually say I'm angry. You don't have to share it yet. The first step is to just acknowledge within yourself that I have this feeling and it's okay. I'm not bad or wrong for having the feeling. And I really had to go through that because I did not want my anger at all until, I realized that I couldn't really be honest in my relationships until I had it.

Are you open to sharing a story about yourself or any of the people you work with around kind of leaning into this anger a little bit and what that looks like?

One of the hardest things I did in my early recovery, I think it was like, gosh, three years, is I called a family member. I said, “This is how I feel about how you treated me.” I used I messages and I was super careful. I was scared to death but it changed the relationship because they now saw that I was hurt because I had never said that ever. I was never willing to risk that. I actually could say, “I didn't like this. This was unfair. This was hurtful.” I was super careful. Because again, I was still a people pleaser, so I didn't want to upset them. And they were still upset. And that was okay, that was their process. But that motivated me. The people pleasing motivated me to keep it super clean. But it was free because at that point, I realized, “Wow! I could really say how I feel and it was okay.”

I felt like a million bucks after because I had finally named it and stood up for myself. I just think there's so much value in just going back. And not blasting because I've heard a lot of people in 12 step programs, “Oh, I'm going to go blast my family members.” That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying, “When you said this…” “When you treated me this way, I felt this way.” And to just let them know what are our experiences. If you don't feel safe enough doing that, write it in a letter. I could have done it in a letter but I was ready. I was ready.

Michelle, do you find that, because as you're saying how you felt afterwards potentially was the gift in itself? Yeah, that it wasn't even so much. I mean, I'm grateful to hear the relationship changed. But for some that might not be available. And to be able to stand up like you're saying, “I have my own back and I was able to voice what was it I wasn't able to voice before?”

Yeah. Well, I think that's part of the recovery process is figuring out where your line is where you need to advocate for yourself and say, “Hey, we need to have a conversation.” versus “No, it's not safe enough. I need to do this work myself.” Because had that conversation got derailed, it would have taken me longer to feel good about it but I know I still would have felt good about it because it was such a big step for me to advocate for myself.

And the codependent tends to measure it on the outcome, what the other person thinks. I didn't. I measured it by, “Okay, Michelle. I just took a huge risk in my recovery.” That's what I had to focus on. I couldn't focus on their reaction.

Right. It's almost this occupying space. This is me and my field. And this is what's going on here. This is what I'm going to take care of, and this is what I'm not going to engage in anymore. You mentioned hurt. I know that sometimes anger is viewed as a secondary emotion. Sometimes it's a primary emotion, right? It lets us know when a boundary has been crossed, there's injustice, a violation. It gives us that fuel to take action, right? And sometimes there's hurt underneath. So, help me with how you're seeing anger in this way.

I do think there's times when you're right, where it is the primary emotion. Somebody has crossed your boundary. There's some danger and you're going to respond right away. But I think when the codependent is hurt, they may want to go away. If they bury that hurt, that's when it can fester into resentment and then come into anger. And then we have this big story about how we've been wronged. Right? And then, we carry it. It's all because we didn't handle the hurt. So, that's where I think the hurt, especially in codependency, can really dovetail into resentment and anger. And then, we're kind of lost in it and we forget all about the hurt.

I'm almost getting the sense as you're talking that it's, “I've made things okay that I'm not okay with. And I want to go back and I really want to kind of clear that. I've been dancing or I've been allowing certain things when it's really not been okay.

Yeah. Well, and that codependent isn't going to go to anger first typically because hurt is much more familiar. Because when we're hurt, especially in codependency, we may tend to be more passive. We may tend to feel more like a victim. Like, “This was done to me.” versus anger got some energy to it. And that can be more scary to embrace.

Can you give us some examples what more of that healthy constructive anger would look like for someone that is kind of playing with this a little bit?

First, you have to recognize the feeling. You have to name it. What's happening physically? Because especially with anger, there's usually some really obvious physical signs like heartbeat, sweating. Some people get headaches or stomachaches. Some people have muscle tension. Your body is usually screaming at you at this point. It's okay. Just listen to it. Okay, you know what? When I'm angry, I usually have to move. I got to walk. I've got to do something. I have to get that energy out. Because that's what can be healthy. The next thing is, it's okay to say I'm angry.

Now, people get confused. Well, is that all I say? Well, no. You can actually say, “I'm angry when you…” But then after that you it has to be naming this specific behavior. “I'm angry when you were late last night.” “I'm angry that you called me a name yesterday.” It can't be something like, “I'm angry when you never support me.” or “You never listen to me.” or “You're never around.” That's super vague. And the other person's going to jump all over that and get defensive. But if you name the behavior specifically, the other person's not really going to have a leg to stand on. They're going to go, “Well, gosh, I did do that.” So, they're going to be much more apt to be accountable and say, “Well, yeah, because you're naming it without judging me for it.” Because nobody wants to be judged. And in anger, we tend to want to judge people and make them wrong.

And the character attacks before addressing the behavior. It’s not so personalized like you're saying.

Right. And the other person can hear it. Whereas, if you say, “Well, you know, you're just an idiot. You always do this to me. You are attacking me.” It's like, “No.” No, no, no, no, no. If you can just name when you said this, when you did this, it really bothered me. It can really help build that bridge. Because you know, people need to be able to express the hurt and the anger.

Yes! Yes, yes, yes. And as I'm listening, as you're talking about taking a walk, I know that physiological response. Sometimes, it's this delicate balance for me when I feel that arousal and the anger flowing through me. I actually want to use that to take action. But I also want to find my balance before I started communicating. So, it's like, “I want to kind of, like you're saying, discharge. Get into some regulation, but then take action and address it.” I think that with the work that I've done, I'm so committed to it. I now wonder if you feel the same way in your recovery, having had your back, having had a voice, and what that gets to cultivate that now that gets to be the motivator. Like, I'm not going back. I'm not doing the old way.

Sometimes, that can actually lead the codependent down the rabbit hole of rage because once that door is open, they have a harder time being able to monitor that. And that's okay. Sometimes when we stuff anger, we kind of go to unhealthy anger for a while. But that's when I always go to the garage or I go in the other part of the house and I just talk to myself. I say, “I'm really frustrated.” I will work that out until I'm calm enough, and then I'll probably go back. But people need to recognize when you're hot like that, you really have to be mindful because it's probably not the time to stay in it and talk. It's really the time to walk away.

Yes. And I'm wondering with codependent recovery, if there's this cumulation at its backbone. There's like a backlog. And it's like, “And another thing.” Do you know what I mean?

Yes. I did that.

Right? I know. And then, we can relate to all the other times that we felt injustice or violated and it’s not even necessary.

Right. Well, it's the dogpiling. I call that dogpiling. All the hurt comes out. And you know, sometimes that's part of recovery too, is we have to kind of do it imperfectly and maybe go back later and go, “Gosh, I know that was a lot. I brought up a lot of stuff in the past. I'm sorry.” But that's part of recovery too is knowing how to talk about one thing at a time versus a mountain of hurts over the years. And sometimes, you know, in the beginning, that's a challenge.

Yes. You mentioned something earlier that I'm hoping you might be able to speak to which is practicing with safe people. How do you help people evaluate who's safe to practice with?

I would ask them things like, is this person respectful of your boundaries? Do they tend to be accepting of you and love you as you are? Do they have anger issues? Do they tend to blame you or make you wrong when you bring something up? Because those are the people I'm not going to practice with. I'm going to practice with my girlfriend that I know is in recovery. She's practicing too. I may even use that statement, “I'm scared to death to tell you this, but I just got to tell you this.” And then she'd be like, “Oh, I really want to hear you.” And it's fine. So, you can use that fear to actually be honest and say, “This is hard for me but I want to practice taking care of myself.” But yeah, to me, there's usually not too much confusion around who's safe and who isn't. Because people know, like, okay, who in your life that you know, is not going to get upset and jump down your throat? And they'll probably be able to list like a couple of people that they can go, “Oh, yeah, yeah. I could practice with them.” Not who I should practice with.

Right. No kidding.

Don't start with your mother or your mate.

You also mentioned something earlier, as we're talking about anger, it can be anger towards the situation, it could also be anger that we might feel with another. You also mentioned anger at oneself. Why did I do this? Why did I put up with this again? Can you speak to the anger towards oneself?

That can be hard. But you know what? That too is part of recovery, where you may get angry at the choices you've made or the relationships that you're now feeling stuck in. That can be a part of recovery, but at some point, that's why it takes a village to recover. Because if I stayed in that place, I'm not going to grow. But if I have a sponsor, a therapist, a group that I can share with, they're going to validate for me that you know what? You did the best you can. This is okay. You can make a different choice when you're ready. And that example of being kind to yourself even in the midst of feeling like you're stuck or feeling like you aren’t ready to leave an abusive relationship yet. That's how we grow. We don't grow to when we beat ourselves up. We grow when we finally realize, “Okay. You know what? Yes, I'm willing to do something different.” But sometimes recovery is admitting that we're not ready. That has to be okay too.

Yes. Okay. That's super, super helpful. I'm sure there's a lot to unpack around that anger towards oneself. There's still more there to learn perhaps. And with having these support people and support groups that it really allows for that. One of the things I really appreciate about 12 steps, and Al anon, and coda, and different groups is that there's such a humanity and a humbleness around we're all in this. We're all practicing. We're all learning. It's not about being perfect. I think the people pleasing tends to run that risk of like, “I got to be everything for everyone. It can be a really great to learn from others and know you're not alone.

There are going to be days when you feel like a newcomer. And then, there are going to be days when you're like, “Wow! I really did a good job with that.” We can't expect it to just go up and up and up and up. Because life isn't like that. I mean, look at the year we had last year. You know, we can't predict what's going to happen.

No kidding. For sure. Well, and you're talking about recovery. Is there anything you want to speak to about the codependency recovery process that's helpful for people to know?

Yeah. There's really three parts to codependency recovery. I wish I had known this when I was 20. Because this is part of the reason why it took me a while to get some recovery in my relationships, because when I started, I jumped to the second one, which is I want to fix my relationship because that's what mattered to me the most.

But what I skipped is I skipped the first part, which is a relationship with myself. I had no interest in that. The love yourself so you can love other people. No, I hated hearing that. But really, that was what I was missing is I didn't build in who am I, how do I take care of myself? What do I need to really be a grounded, solid sense of self? I didn't want that. I wanted somebody else in recovery to help me do that because I was addicted to relationships.

So, the first part is really, how do you get to know yourself? And how do you prioritize self-care? How do you get the focus off of somebody else back onto you so that, yes, you can give but you're giving in moderation, not when it's hurting you?

The second part is relationship skills. How do you set boundaries? How do you communicate without blame or guilt? How do you handle conflict? How do you handle anger? All of those things the codependent typically, or even the normal person doesn't really grow up learning, right.

And then the third part, and this is not in a particular order, but the third part is doing the childhood work. Right? That's looking at your childhood patterns, looking at abuse, neglect. And the hard part and why recovery is so complex is that all of those processes are typically going on at the same time. So, when people beat themselves up, that they're not further along, I'm like, “Well, wait a minute. Look at what you're dealing with.” There's a lot to this. This is not like put the plug in the jug in AA and you're done. And even AA recovery isn't that simple. But, you know, codependency recovery is definitely not that simple. But it helps to know what the process looks like, I think.

Yes. And that there are a lot of layers. There are aspects that are constantly interweaving. It's a lot to pay attention to. Sometimes we do a little deeper dive in each one. It's not sequential, like you said, and always evolving. You've mentioned addiction a few times as it relates to relationship. I'm wondering if you want to say a little bit more of that because when you're talking about this first phase of recovery, it can be wanting those accolades with a positive reflection. Is that what you're talking about? Or, what would you say about the addiction to relationship?

That's not necessarily going to stop right away. I mean, some people get in the program and they start becoming super dependent on their sponsor, or super dependent on the group. That's okay. I would rather see them transfer it to safer people than keep doing the same thing over and over and feeling empty because codependent people tend to attract alcoholics and addicts, and people who are somewhat narcissistic. That's really painful. Anyway, did that answer your question?

Yes, it does. Actually, I don't know if you would agree with this. I had a friend on the show who works with people around food and eating issues. She said it's so difficult because we need food to survive. And I believe that we are wired up for connection, and we are social beings, and we need relationship. At the same time, if we're feeling addiction to food that's complicated because we need it. Those patterns work similarly with relationship.

They're very similar processes. I totally agree. I think that's really interesting. But I think that's where the work with the self can come in. Because if you start to cultivate a relationship with yourself, you're still going to be dependent on other people, but it's going to get less. And that's the goal. You're not going to solve this completely in a month.

Some people think, “Oh, I'm going to go to the 12 step programs and I'll do all the 12 steps in a month and leave.” It's like, “Oh my God, no. That's not the way it is.” There are little things you can do over time. And that's what's going to make the difference for your recovery. Eventually, you're going to realize that, “Wow, you know what? I'm not as dependent on somebody. I don't call them five times a day. Maybe I call them once a day.” For some people, that's growth to see that decrease of contact a bit.

No kidding. I think for me the orientation is very different. Wanting to relate, having interdependency in this mutual exchange versus I'm so hinged on what are you going to say about me or how do you feel. My vitality and my livelihood depend on your approval, like you said.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's when I think pain gets to be a really good motivator, because eventually that dependency and that intensity tends to create relationships that will crash and burn on us. And then we're left with that feeling of, “Oh my God, now I'm left.” But then now we get to reassess. Okay. What can I do differently next time and not put all my emotional eggs in one person's basket? Because that's dangerous.

No kidding. And does this first phase relate to the self-esteem?

Yeah, I think so. Sure. Even if somebody says, “Oh, I don't like anything about myself.” Well, what do people compliment you on? You could start to go, “Okay. What do people recognize you for?” Because that may be your starting point of, “Well, I am a good caretaker.” or “I am a really good mom.” or, “I'm very kind.”

No kidding. I do think that that's how we usually grow up is that we're getting this positive mirroring, and we get to internalize it, and then we have a sentence, and sometimes we modify some things and we get to decide ultimately. And if we haven't had that, it's difficult. Right? It’s kind of that relearning. What do you see in recovery? I mean, do you ever feel like people are recovered? Or do you feel like it's just this onion?

It's really interesting because some people in the program will say that, “I'm recovered”. Well, I don't relate to that. I think there is a point in somebody's recovery, where they've done enough work where they feel whole, and they still need the support, they still need the practice of the skills, but they aren't drowning anymore. So, I can see both. I always say I'm recovering because to me it's a lifelong process. But I can understand a little bit of the other side of it, where you do reach a point after a certain amount of time, where you really realize, “Hey, you know what, life is better.” And that's a good thing.

Totally. And it sounds like you really enjoy helping people along this journey. And being really connected to the work, I'm sure, helps you be able to support other people's healing. Is that right?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. I love it. Because it's such an imperfect process. And that's what I want to give people permission that you know what, you can't mess it up. Just keep coming back. That's the only criteria of doing this work is just keep showing up.

I love it. Well, I know we're getting close to the end of our time. I want to know, is there anything you want to say that we haven't touched on in the way of codependency and anger or recovery with codependency?

I would just say, let yourself receive. That's another really interesting practice for a codependent is to just let yourself ask for a favor. Ask your mate to do the dishes, if you're super tired. Little things like that can really help go a long way in you taking care of yourself, and letting somebody give to you. We kind of have a negative association about, “Oh, I shouldn't ask for anything.” But really, we're robbing the other person of being able to give to us. It helps them feel like they're worthy and they're contributing too. So, sometimes I think we need to remember that we need to let other people give to us.

Do you have anything that you help people start to play with a little better on how to receive? That's not an easy thing sometimes.

You know what? I would do self-talk and say, “You know what? It's okay. It's okay. I can receive. This is uncomfortable but I can do it. That's okay.” Sometimes we just have to do it. And baby steps, start with somebody that's safe. Start with somebody that you trust. Start with something small. Don't ask for somebody to help you move. Ask for somebody, “Hey, could we do this restaurant? Not this restaurant.” What is something really tiny that you could say, “Hey, wow, I got what I wanted.”

Yeah. And breathing into that and just trying to absorb even a little bit. I love that. So good. I was meeting with a client, the one that I mentioned. She was saying something really interesting, which I really appreciated. She said, “Even people that show up a little toxically with me and I want to set more boundaries with, I recognize I'm so loyal if they've done something nice for me, because I didn't have people do a lot of nice things for me when I was young. So, it means so much. And I put so much weight in that.” And there's the sense of like, you know, that that somehow tips the scale a bit. Like, I've got I have this loyalty and have to stay with them even though they're toxic. So, it feels like it's a little bit related to what you're saying.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and that's why you have a sponsor and you have other people on the program to check that out with because that's where we get our reality check of yeah, you know what, that person probably isn't somebody long term but you'll do it when you are ready kind of thing instead of, “Oh, you're bad. You should be leaving him by now.” I mean, that doesn't typically help. It just shames us.

Yes, no kidding. Wonderful. Well, how do people get in touch with you and what you're offering and what you're doing?

My website is CounselingRecovery.com. I made a FREE Relationship Checklist because I thought it'd be really interesting to help people assess where their relationships are. So, there's three checklists in that that will help you see who's really in your corner and who's really challenging. Because even I took it before I, you know, usually do my own stuff. I was surprised like, “Wow! There were a couple people on that list that I needed to thank.” And there were a couple of people on this list that I thought, “Oh, I need to I need to backup.” So, I think it's really important as codependents to be able to know how to assess who is in our corner and who do we need to possibly distance ourselves from or practice some better boundaries with.

Okay. So, this checklist sounds like it's really looking at the health of the relationship. It's not specific to codependency.

It relates.

It relates, yes! Because as codependents, it's easy to look at, like you're saying, the reality check of not knowing what's healthy or what's not.

Right.

Okay. Great. And that is on your website?

Yeah.

Okay. Excellent. What else are you doing on your website? What are you offering?

Ever since the pandemic, I've been doing a four-week calming your anger class. It's four weeks. It's really been fun. People are so open now. I was talking about this to a colleague and I realized that's probably the blessing in the pandemic is that people are so much more willing to get help. I mean, I'm getting calls. “Yep, I have an anger problem. When's your class start?” And it's so refreshing to hear the accountability that they get it, they get that they're struggling, and they're willing to get help. I think there are some blessings that have come out of it. I think that's one of them.

Yes. And the readiness and the willingness.

Yeah. Yeah.

Such a teachable thing. Okay. Wonderful. So, you're offering groups and you have that checklist. Are you meeting with people one on one or mostly groups?

I do. I do. But I'm only doing Zoom right now. I have a really tiny office so I don't really feel comfortable going back in person yet. But yeah, I do Zoom sessions.

Gotcha. Wonderful. I'll make sure to put those links on today's show notes.

Great.

Thank you so much for joining us today.

Oh, thank you for having me. This has been lovely.

Signing Off

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