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The natural fear we feel when showing vulnerability is tied to our survival instinct. However, this fear can affect intimacy in our relationships. Working through the specific moments in our past which triggered this fear is a painful but rewarding process, and can allow us to grow and foster more intimate relationships.

The causes of our fears account for many factors including cultural and intergenerational trauma. Therefore, the most important elements to foster healing are open communication and creating a safe space to be vulnerable.

Mitchell Smolkin is a certified emotionally-focused couples therapist (EFT), Jungian psychoanalyst, published author, experienced public speaker, and the host of “The Dignity of Suffering Podcast.” He explains what we should expect around vulnerability in relationships & why it matters.

In this Episode 

• 03:56 Introduction to Mitchell and EFT.
• 07:24 Vulnerability in relationships is a particular skill that is practiced over a lifetime.
• 11:11 Cultural and intergenerational history are important contexts in the process of healing. 
• 18:42 Vulnerability as a relational phenomena. Notice your first reactions to disconnection Name them to track where the upset originates. 
• 25:28 Hiding what you are feeling can't overwrite the nervous system. We have mirror neurons that actually anticipate partner's responses.
• 29:07 Just allowing another person can establish safety. However, being anti-social is tied to survival but this is terrible for intimacy.
• 35:26 How to discern between vulnerability and being afraid. Just talking about it with a professional creates the safety to get out of your cycles of fear.
• 44:01 Meaningful conversations need to happen in the right environments, as well as the right frames of mind. Partners are continuously learning how to make each other safe.
• 48:12 Connect with Mitchell.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Name the causes of your reactions to disconnection, what caused you to feel afraid. This telegraphs to yourself and to your partner how you got to that place where you were upset.
• Don't be afraid to experiment with your vulnerability. Accept that it's a difficult process but it is important to slow down especially when you don't get the response you were hoping for. 
• Pay attention when your shifts happen. See if you can identify the bodily sensations and the points when language no longer gets to you.
• Ask who, when, where have you felt that you could let yourself go and somebody mirrored that to you? Who in your life did that and how it felt better and more hopeful.
• Do not get confused by feelings of safety in a the current state of the relationship compared to when it was just starting. Keep in mind how much they matter to you and seek the help of a professional who can work through what is happening.

Mentioned

Mitchell Smolkin Website

Mitchell Smolkin Instagram

The Dignity of Suffering Podcast

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

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LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About Today's Show

Mitchell, thank you for joining us today. 

Thank you for having me. 

I know you do a lot in the way of helping couples and people in a relationship and how to navigate intimacy. Today, we’re going to be talking about vulnerability. It’s such a huge component of relationships and intimacy. Before we get started, for listeners who maybe don’t know you, or aren’t familiar with you, what got you interested in serving people in the way of relationships?

It was quite simple actually. I was doing my internship in psychology. I’d always dreamed of actually being a psychoanalyst, but then by way of doing a master’s in psychology. I was asked to see couples. To be honest, I knew the clinic I was at. They didn’t know a lot about couples’ therapy. I was like, “You’re asking me to sit with couples and entrust their relationships with me and pay good money.” And so, I immediately went online. 

I remember my son was just being born. I discovered there was a book in the late ‘70s written by Les Greenberg and Sue Johnson. It was the first book on emotion-focused therapy for couples that they collaborated on. By that point, though, an institute had been established in Ottawa. We took our son, who was four months old, to Poland to visit our family. We came home. I packed a bag. I flew to Ottawa, and I spent the next two years going back and forth training. I got hooked. 

At first, it was strange to encounter a new model, which we’ll talk a bit about today in terms of what it’s about. But I got hooked when I saw how it helped people. And so, that’s really how I began working with couples in a serious way.

That’s amazing that you were able to locate EFT because listeners who have listened to the show are familiar a bit with EFT, not so much in the actual model and how it works but just in the research and the efficacy, but also so many practitioners are just so devoted to the model because it’s so at the heart of what is at play. Look, my dissertation was on couples. I’ve done so much in the way of understanding relationships. I think this is at the crux of it all. If this isn’t attended to, I think it’s really difficult to make progress. 

Yeah, for sure. 

I love that you were one of the front runners in kind of learning because, I mean, they’ve done a lot to grow their awareness around EFT, and it’s still growing. 

No, it was true. I’m glad I went not only early but also to Ottawa. It was always nice to be around something that’s exciting. There was a great team there. I’m still in touch with a number of them. You’re right. It has made a huge contribution literally around the world. 

When I moved to Sweden, which is where I am, almost immediately when I landed, I was teaching, I was working. This is something that started in Canada. It’s in Sweden, Saudi Arabia, China, and South America. There are people that write to me from Iran. I mean, it’s fascinating actually how ideas disseminate around the world.

And couples work is difficult, right? You have two individuals, and then you have the system of the relationship, and there are a lot of moving parts. I just want to applaud you for knowing that and getting real access to a model that works because I think it is really challenging. When people, clinicians, and practitioners are ill-equipped, people feel really lost. 

I don’t want to geek out on us and our profession because I know that we could probably talk the whole time. I would love for listeners to connect with you around vulnerability. Let’s just start there. What are you seeing from your lens when we help people connect with even the word and the topic of vulnerability?

Well, what I’ve come to learn about vulnerability or these ideas that a lot of us talk about, is that on the one hand, they’re beautiful ideas. When you’re in a moment, whether with yourself or with someone you love, or a friend, we all know that feeling of connection. 

At the same time, I think what’s important and what I feel like couples are often coming in a very genuine, confused way is actually when somebody matters to you. This is really important because so many couples get confused. I’m sure I was confused by this where vulnerability in a romantic relationship is something very “other” than vulnerability with many other people in your life, colleagues, strangers. That can get skewed sometimes because when we’re struggling to be open or to let somebody in that matters so much to us. And then either you go to work, and at lunch, you’re having a great conversation with someone, you’re like, “Oh, this is so easy. Why can’t I talk to my partner this way?” Or, “Why won’t they open up to me?” 

That confuses us. I think it’s important to name that when we talk about vulnerability because (A), it’s not a singular idea, and (B), when we talk about what it means to let somebody in, the fact that it is harder with your partner makes sense. 

I was actually saying to a couple today who have a very highly escalated cycle but are doing really beautiful work; it’s a good thing that we actually show our partner our strongest emotions. It’s a good thing that we react when we’re injured, and we don’t feel like we can feel vulnerable with them, rather than at the grocery store when the person checking you out is maybe aloof or gives you a stink eye or something. It’s a good thing that you just roll your eyes. You’re like, “Oh, they must hate their job.” or “They’re having a bad day.” as opposed to freaking out and being like, “Why don’t you see me and look at me packing my groceries with a smile?”

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From an evolutionary reason, there’s a reason that vulnerability is a very specific phenomenon in relationships. We can talk more about what that means, but in the way that I’ve come to learn it and see it and advocate for it, it has a different temperature. I think that it is a different skill to learn to do that with someone that you end up spending your life with or a long period of time with than someone you meet at a coffee shop where you hit it off, and you feel instantaneously close. That may feel like a kind of vulnerability in the sharing. But for me, they’re qualitatively different than what we’re talking about when we talk about vulnerability in relationships.

Thank you for that. It’s so important. The stakes are so much higher. Our protective strategies are going to emerge that much quicker. Can you help people with what you’re looking at when you’re talking about this significant other? How come it is so different? Is there anything else you want to say to help people recognize what’s at play in these intimate bonds?

Well, it’s a good question, but to talk about that, we have to go back in time because all of us have a certain schema around what it means to be vulnerable and where we’ve been hurt in our vulnerability. And actually, if we’ve ever been allowed to be vulnerable. And so, there’s a huge range of how we all come into relationships. 

The older I get and the more work I do, I genuinely see a lot of equality in terms of how all of us come in and the struggles we go through. But it’s important for those listening that maybe really struggled to feel seen or look back at relationships and see that it’s been difficult to feel safe, that our history and not just our family history but cultural and intergenerational history is crucial to sort of start to frame what it means for the human nervous system to let go. 

Sweden is a relatively safe country and actually quite unique among most nations in that it hasn’t had a major war in over 200 years. And so, it’s very interesting. I meet a lot of people that come from cultures who have not had the same luxury, where they feel almost a sense of eeriness here in Sweden because you can sense there’s a kind of stability. 

I raised that because I work with a ton of expats who bring various histories with them. And so, where I start when I’m looking at a couple, and I’m trying to understand vulnerability is number one, I’m looking to say, “Hey, what is your experience been with that? Has somebody modeled for you that it’s okay to let yourself cry all the way to when you feel better? Have you been able to just let yourself go? Has someone given you language when you’re sad, or did it stop?”

The metaphor I used with the couple today is, “Look, sometimes in our lives, and our parents are really trying, but they only know how to play Happy birthday on the piano when it comes to emotions. And relationships require Beethoven or Shostakovich.” That’s related to vulnerability and actually what I’m looking for when a couple comes in. I love the beginning of couples therapy because I love the process when a couple is lost, and they come in, and they tell me the most incredible stories about moving overseas, taking risks for jobs, having children. And then they look up and they’re like, “This was hard.” “That was hard.” And I’m like, “Of course, it was hard because there were all these demands.” 

When we draw a distinction, as I was saying before, between more casual or collegial relationships, and the person that you have staked your life and are building a family with, when those intense emotions come up, when it’s three in the morning and your baby is crying and your partner maybe has to get up for work or you have to get up for work and you’re worried you’re going to be tired, the intensity of how your body responds at that moment to your need for safety and allowing yourself to be vulnerable is exquisitely difficult.

And many, many, many, many people, whether it’s because families were struggling or going through a hard time, or because we came from cultures where simply personal emotions are not discussed. Those are huge factors that I am listening for and trying to hold. So, people can begin to feel as normal as possible as quickly as possible.

Mitchell, it feels a little bit implied in what you’re saying, but I’m also tracking, you know, Brené Brown has done so much to bring vulnerability to a little bit more popular awareness. I would say probably in the last 10 plus years, people have an understanding, intellectually, that vulnerability is perhaps a good thing to be able to have or access in a relationship. And yet, if we’re not giving space or credence to our intergenerational family lineage around emotions or vulnerability in relationships, and if we’re looking at demands of stress and all these different life events that, you know, like I said, the demands are extreme. 

And then, you add cultural components to this, whether or not it’s a tragedy or major significant loss or war, or even just the cultural norms. This all informs our nervous system, our felt sense of what we’ve known so we could have an idea and an intention to be vulnerable or an expectation, or why is this so hard? Or why can I just do this if I put my mind to it. You’re talking, and you’re helping us really look at this. This make sense that this is frightening or difficult or not your go-to? Is that right?

Remember Brené Brown, who is a psychologist and who studies this for a living, she became well known, why? Because she gave a TED talk. What happened after her TED Talk? The story is now famous. Right? She locked herself in a hotel room for four days because it was so overwhelming. And when she came out, of course, what she had exposed had touched people, and there was this incredible response. But that detail is crucial exactly to your point because we may associate Brené Brown and get kind of butterflies and be like, “Oh, vulnerability. Oh, wow.” 

Imagine in a relationship, right? Imagine people who lock themselves in their room. Imagine that Brené Brown is in a relationship, and she reveals something or something happens, and now she’s locked in the bedroom. I see people all the time. 

A couple just left my office, who have really worked through this in the beginning. He used to say in session, “I want to fall asleep right now. I want to leave the room.” And we talked today about how that intersection of talking about what he wants to do has just allowed them to stay a little bit longer and more when that comes up. So yeah, you’re absolutely right. I think, for us to feel normal, we have to recognize the cost of opening up. I think that can bring empathy if done in the right way.

Yeah. And I think this also touches on a conflict, that there’s this human thing that we can feel around vulnerability. And when you talk about the butterflies, right, there’s a call for that, a yearning for that, and a longing, and also the tension around protective and the fear, and what we’ve known and our coping strategies, and that this isn’t always conscious, right? This inner conflict sometimes. And you’re really helping slow this down so that we can look at it, we can validate that it makes sense when we are blocked to vulnerability, or we have our own protection. It makes sense. So many people who listen to podcasts or they read self-help books, and they know the intellect, right? They want to judge a part of them that wants to leave the room or wants to go to sleep. You’re saying, if we can normalize and really understand how it makes sense, then we can start to have a little more compassion and slow this down and look at it more. Is that what I’m hearing?

Yeah. That’s a great point. I mean, two things are crossing my mind. One is that, I guess, when we’re talking about vulnerability, we’re talking about it as a relational phenomenon. Meaning, this is something that shifts and changes depending on who we’re with. As you just pointed out, it might even shift and change within ourselves. There are times where we are more able to sit with parts of ourselves. And there are times where you go into an interview, you have a presentation coming up, you have to talk to a family member that maybe the relationship is a bit strained. And those are times where, as you said a couple of times so far, we have these very sophisticated matrixes within us that get triggered and that know how to keep us safe. What I’ve really come to and I really believe it to be true. I like what you said about how we can become a bit punishing with ourselves. We need to be able to protect ourselves. We have to have a persona. So many professions, including our own profession. I heard a psychologist recently talking about face work. Meaning, you may feel something but you have to do face work at the moment.

Right. Keep a neutral face if somebody is telling you something that’s shocking or you’re having a reaction to. And not to alarm them by your response, right?

Right. So, all of these things that we have learned in our life, the great training that our families give us that’s for free often help us get into professions. I work with lawyers, for instance, who need to go to work. And they need to be suspicious all day long. What they’re getting paid to do is to scrutinize something and always be hyper vigilant. Maybe there’s a reason they went into that profession and that’s very well developed in them. That may not be great for intimacy. People often talk about, “Oh, I can’t relax on vacation.” 

And so, I love what you said because we need to turn the tables a little bit in the way that maybe we get frustrated by parts of us that are overdeveloped and very strong but we have to befriend them and recognize that they’re there for a reason. And what I often say is we’re really tweaking things, right. We’re not throwing away these parts of us that are overdeveloped. We’re tweaking parts of us to increase and engender different kinds of relationships in our life so we can have more. I think that’s what I’ve really come to because you’re right, it can be quick to judge.

Yes. It’s perhaps expanding or growing other parts to complement the overdeveloped parts and that they can be a little more well balanced. Well, Mitchell, I know you have a lot to say around helping people tolerate vulnerability and gaining some exposure to let people in. And you’re giving us a big key right now, which is just even being able to look at the tendency and understand how it makes sense, right? Whether or not it’s through a couple’s therapist or someone to assist to really help be that mirror and to really offer. What else do you want to say around helping people begin to tolerate or gain some exposure? Because it sounds important.

Yeah, it’s a great question and one that I think about a lot. The first thing that comes to mind is that the more that I’ve come to understand just how quickly we begin to defend ourselves against feeling unsafe, and with fMRIs now there was a great study out of Australia, they can actually count in milliseconds how fast the left part of the brain begins to sort of cover over and defend against vulnerable feelings. It’s less than a second actually. 

And so, why that’s important to talk about in terms of your question of just in a very practical way when we notice that we get sweaty, when we notice that we get frustrated, when we notice that we want to pull away, or we get angry, what has really come to be so important to me is what I actually tend to call the front of the system. 

I’m always paying attention to what is the first thing that happens. There are all kinds of practical needs for this, right? I mean, I think a lot of people listening are often curious about how can I go into a difficult conversation or, it doesn’t seem like it works or, go around in circles. As you pointed out, you may need professional help or someone to be there to slow things down but I do think and it’s helped me even in my own marriage, that if something is not working, or if I noticed that I’m going fast, I want to look at the first thing that’s happening to me. That might be a thought. It might be like, “I’m afraid that you’re going to get defensive.” Or, “I’m afraid this is going to go badly.” 

For a lot of people, it really is a bodily sensation. So many people start there, right? The magic that happens when somebody who normally is either quiet or looks kind of resentful or upset. The magic that happens when someone opens up and says, “You know, I get tense in my chest.” Or, “My heart starts to race.” where I’ll often ask people, you know, “What happens to that moment when you start to feel this connection?” And they’ll say almost instantly, “Oh, I feel it all over.” 

It’s amazing to watch how their partner experiences just that disclosure that they feel it in their body. It’s instantly more safe. And so, for people who are listening and wondering how do I negotiate a moment where there are many complex emotions happening at the same time, there are stories being told, there are perceptions, there’s anticipatory anxiety.

If we focus, first of all, on the first thing that’s happening to us. Rewind the tape. Just go back for those that know what tapes are. Replay it in your mind. Go back to that moment. This is an exercise that people can do anytime, right? Just go back to a difficult moment and say, “When did I start to notice something was off? Because if it goes too long, and then we get frustrated that now that we’re knee deep in some of these emotions and we don’t feel like either our partner is being vulnerable or we’re not being vulnerable. And then we’re like, “Oh, we can never figure this out.” It’s a mistake, actually. It’s a mistake to take for, you know, as an example, a moment when we’re in a very stressful situation. And then lean on that moment when we say things we don’t mean or we’re overwhelmed. We need to go back to the moment when we actually started to feel afraid. And to start to name those things. 

I think in my mind, that’s what is the key that then begins to telegraph, whether it’s for ourselves or our partner, how we actually got to the place where we were upset. We think we’re hiding things. We think we’re doing a good job not saying how we feel. I mean, forget about it. We have mirror neurons that are anticipating your partner’s response. And so, that’s where the work of really slowing things down and getting into these crevices of just before somebody launches into a habitual perception. That moment before is extremely important to start to tease out because that creates huge amounts of safety. It never fails actually. It is one of the most secure things I do as a clinician is to find that moment. 

I can’t say it ever fails because there’s an honesty and an integrity there that it’s just not overwhelming in the way that after a long fight, we’re too tired, and then we get upset with ourselves that we can’t resolve things. Well, try and open a new window on your computer when it’s overheating and the wheel of death is going. Try and open a new window then and be like, “Oh, stupid computer.” It’s like, “No, it’s done.” Put it to sleep.

So helpful. Mitchell, I’m curious if you have an example because there’s a couple of things, you’re saying that I want to underscore if you have an example to share. One is how helpful it is to look at the body sensation, particularly. And also, if they can recognize by going back in time and replaying to the beginning, if possible, to get the sequence of when did I first notice the rattle, so to speak, and the body sensation or the honesty around that. 

And the other thing that you’re saying I think is just really, really helpful is that we think we’re being so sophisticated, and yet how were our nervous systems are co-regulating all the time. 

What do you say when people are really aware of those heightened moments of escalation, and that’s the point of which they’re like, this is bad, right? But they’re not even maybe even recognizing. And I don’t know if that’s true, but I mean, I believe they’re some awareness building. So, if somebody’s listening to this show, and they haven’t done this work before, how do you recommend slowing it down and where to catch it as early as they can? Is there anything you want to say about that?

Yeah. Well, I don’t want people to be set up to fail. When it comes to relationships and vulnerability, the specifics of a particular relationship, the capacity, and the ways that people experience vulnerability, you know, we know our partners well. We often know their strengths and weaknesses. And like you said about the fact that we’re always sensing what our partner is going through, I can’t tell you how many times in therapy someone says, “Oh, I know. I can tell when something changes.” I really like that because for me, that just validates how close we are with people and how sensitive we are and how much we care. 

And so, just as a caveat, if you’re listening to this and as you’re pointing out, if this is a bit new, or you haven’t done this work before, just take it easy if you do start taking risks and it doesn’t go well or you don’t get a response that you had longed for because it is really hard. It is really hard to slow down and feel safe. But just to give an example, from my own marriage, one that comes to mind where I remember that I was preparing for a conversation with my wife that I knew wouldn’t be easy. I think I sensed when we started talking about, I know exactly where I was, and I could hear in her voice her back going up. I remember that what I did in that moment was I just really opened up with her about my internal process. I said, “You know, I have been thinking about this a lot. I was nervous. I know, this makes you anxious. I know it’s a tough conversation. It’s hard for me to sense that you are shutting down because I was doing everything I could to hold the door open and to kind of let you know that this is safe.” 

And so, I don’t think it has to be perfect. I don’t think it has to be eloquent. A lot of couples with couple’s therapists are like, “Oh, I can’t say it the way you do.” If it is sincere, if you are really going back as we’re talking about and just letting somebody in and that’s happened a lot, you know, people have said, “Oh, I didn’t realize how hard you were working to make this safe.” That establishes, I think, a kind of empathy. Not always but it is certainly, I think, a much better option than as you’re pointing out all of a sudden feeling that disappointment in one’s body, and then going into what we call action tendencies, which is how we respond then to disappointment when we feel unseen.

Antonio Damasio, the American neurologist, who wrote Descartes’ Error, he made a wonderful point that has really helped me. And the point that he made is that most of our brain’s function is anti-social. That line is not too far away at any given moment. That’s important for survival, right? Something is dangerous, you’re with your child, they run in the street. We have to be on a moment’s notice ready to go into action. And so, like you said, we have to validate those defenses.

Frankly, they’re often terrible for intimacy. Once we start to feel unsafe and we go down that rabbit hole, we’re not in a social state anymore. So, what I do is I scramble sometimes to find whatever language I can possibly muster to describe that process that I’m going through to establish safety for myself before I will really, when I am grounded and not in my own, you know, before I will attempt to go in.

I demand that, to be honest, with the couples I work with because I don’t want them to leave my office more overwhelmed, more upset, or to pay me to go into a stress response that they’re so familiar with. It’s very frustrating. We may not get as much done in terms of the content of a conversation but if we leave and the relationship, if the spirit of it, if there’s a sense of togetherness, that’s a win for me.

And so, if people are listening, and like this is new, I would just start to really pay attention to the shifts in you when you don’t feel safe. And see if you can identify even as we’re saying, a bodily sensation. And even that is not one thing, right? If you’re really overwhelmed in your body, that might be something “other” and hard to communicate, and maybe someone else gets overwhelmed. Then reeling it back to the first. When the smoke alarms first smell the smoke. Not when it’s going off at full volume but the second it starts to get noticed. Because then we’re still in a state maybe where we could put language to it and we’re not in panic.

Mitchell, it sounds like you’re saying something really important that I think will help listeners. You’re saying, “Let my partner in or the stability to explore the internal world to then reveal to whatever degree.” And as we practice this, I do believe it’s like a muscle and we get some comfort and we build safety and we feel more motivated to do it again. I think a lot of people who, myself included, sometimes in the past, would think that I’m being vulnerable, but really, I’m opening up my perception or my interpretation or my narrative of it. I’m like, “Okay. Let me be vulnerable. Let me tell you what I think. Let me tell you how I see this. Let me tell you how I observe you.” Is there anything you want to say to help people know the difference there?

No, it’s a fabulous point. I’m the same way. It was very humbling when I realized that all of my passion and intellect and all the ways that I wanted to therapize my wife and my relationship, maybe wasn’t exactly me being vulnerable but me being scared.

When I started to ask myself, “What am I afraid of? What prompted me to go into action? Why am I working so hard to communicate? Am I afraid my wife won’t be okay or she’ll get overwhelmed? Am I afraid for her health? Am I worried this conversation isn’t going well?” And then like you just suggested, it helped me realize that actually, I was responding to a fear that I had, in a way that I wasn’t really acknowledging my vulnerability that I’m nervous. We may have to come back to that sometimes.

I want just to communicate to your listeners a question that I think if people are really stuck or if they’re really looking back and saying, you know, I don’t know if with a partner I’ve ever been able to feel that sense of being taken care of and connection. And I think that what one has to ask themselves is, in your life when you look back, and I know this is a very sensitive question so when you do this just be mindful. It might bring up certain feelings. Who, when, where have you felt that you could let yourself go? And somebody caught you. And it felt good. And you felt soothed. And you felt more hopeful after. Who? Who in your life actually mirrored you in that way and it felt better?

I had a couple in my office yesterday where this happened. It was happening. And the person literally said, she said that, “What is happening right now is unintelligible to me.” She said, “I don’t understand the fact that me opening up is comforting to you.” And I’ll just be direct. If the answer to that question is no one, really, I mean, if you’re like, “I don’t know. I’ve never had that experience before.” Then, find a therapist or professional that you connect with and try to create a safe space for that. It won’t be easy, but believe me, I think you will find that if you don’t do that–. We don’t have that expectation. You mentioned a muscle, right? You said it’s like a muscle. But we know from our research actually, that if that pattern hasn’t been set in, it might be terrifying for us. And that’s what I’m so passionate about talking about so people don’t feel alone. 

So, the rest of the world is talking about vulnerability. Are you seeing commercials on television? I don’t want people to feel alone with that because it is so scary and people are so confused. And we know it to be true. And so, if you look back and you’re like, “I don’t know what that’s like.” I’m sorry, but actually when it happens in your relationship, you won’t recognize it because it’ll feel threatening or it’ll bring up the failure that you felt. And you’re not crazy. You’re not alone. You’re not strange. We need that sequence to be laid down enough to have that expectation.

I noticed this. Some people have more of an expectation when they open up, that they will be held than other people. It’s frightening, I think, to realize that. I’ve seen people stare blankly and be like, “I don’t know what it’s like to have someone be nice to me.” But God, we should aim for that. We should learn to know what that’s like. And if you struggle in therapeutic relationships and you find yourself leaving them, “Oh, that therapist isn’t helping me.” or “That was not helping me.” Slow down and think about this, that may be even that might be hard and go back to them and talk about it and say, “You know, something you said hurt me. I didn’t feel like you were helping me.” It may not be that they’d lack wisdom or experience. It may be that connecting and feeling safe in a relationship is hard. And if you find the right therapist, they’ll know that that’s what’s happening. And the two of you can start talking about it, which I think, frankly, is one of the only ways to start to become aware of that and to get out of the cycle of just feeling like every relationship fails, or people don’t take care of you. I really believe in that. And so, that’s something I like to think and talk a lot about. 

Yes, thank you for the empathy that I feel that you’re conveying about how important this is. Because if one is feeling alone and they’ve learned to adapt in the world, they have certain ways in which they do that but don’t feel this reciprocity that you’re giving some real permission and space to turn towards that experience and it’s okay. And then we build from that. Because even as you’re talking, which I can imagine in your work with this couple, the naming of that person, not knowing this is super helpful for the other person who are like, “Oh my gosh. I thought you just didn’t like what I was saying, or you didn’t care, you didn’t want to respond, but you haven’t known this.” Like that is incredibly important. 

Incredibly important. Incredibly important. And to take it a step further. And I say this, I think this is true for men and women, but certainly in our culture more true for women, and I’m a man. And so, I hope you’ll honor me with just talking about this. 

The women I’ve worked with who have been abused or hurt, there is a point where they look at their partner at that moment and they say, “When you get close to me, I want to push you away. I want to hit you.” There’s a violence that comes in that is necessary. Not necessary, of course, to act on. But necessary to express because the body at some point maybe needed to do that, couldn’t do that, want to do that. And that’s underscoring our relationships. 

And if you think about that, if somebody is carrying that and can’t put language to it and wonders why do I get anxious when we’re close? You know, relationships, you stop having sex when someone becomes important to you. And then you focus on your sex life. And you never get to this place or maybe just maybe when they became important, something in your body said, “Uh, oh. I’m going to get hurt.” And the guilt, the shame that someone has when they say, “I can’t believe I just told you that. I can’t believe I just looked at you in the eyes, my husband or my wife of 10 years, and I told you that when you are kind to me, my body wants to hurt you.” 

It’s incredible because the partner, they don’t get upset. They’re not offended. Do you know what they say? They say that makes so much sense to me. I have felt that. I felt it. I felt it. I never knew why I could feel you pulling away. I could see you. They just felt blamed or criticized. And what did they do? They got defensive. 

So, to be able to unearth these somatic sensory motor ways that we have to protect ourselves, especially if we’ve been hurt. I mean, it’s nothing short of miraculous. But I think it also has to be named and talked about so that we’re not in this fluffy territory of intimacy and vulnerability. But rather we’re saying to be vulnerable for some people comes at an amazing and great cost.

If you find someone that you know in your body wants to take care of you, you know, get you to a therapist. Get you to a space where you can open up with them, find some language for this. Or if you can do it on your own, congratulations. I’ve seen my marriage also. We went to couples therapy, and it was really helpful, but I’ve seen it blossom and find new ways on our own. I hope it’s clear. There has to be a sensitive, sacred structure around conversations like that. Because I’m sorry, that’s not happening at five in the afternoon with two kids that you’re helping with homework, and you have to go to work the next day. This needs dignity and space and time and care and holding to be able to say that. I don’t know any other way. I don’t know any other way to talk about it. I don’t know any other way to help people unless we can get to the bedrock. And someone goes to bed at night and says, “Oh my God. I could protect myself today, and I was loved while I was protecting myself. I don’t know any other way to help someone get close. I can’t think it. I can’t imagine it if that can’t be expressed. 

I know that listeners are all different places. You mentioned some might be new to this. But you know, I hope somewhere that resonates for people that are walking around and have had to protect themselves. No wonder. You’re never going to feel safe if you can’t ever communicate that, and no wonder we’re scared. Who goes on a first date? Right? “Nice to meet you. Hey, you want a glass of Rosie? Oh, by the way, in five years from now, if you get too close to me, I’m just going to want to punch you in the face. Anyway, have you checked out the menu? It’s delicious. There’s steak and pasta.” No, we don’t do that. It’s so deeply embedded in our bodies, and it has to come out. If you’re fighting in your relationship, congratulations. You care about each other. Right? You’re going to learn now. I remember it wasn’t fun, but certainly, I learned something.

Well, thank you for just really being purposeful around, how much dignity and the sacred and the safety for these types of conversations and how critical that is because I agree with you. I don’t know any other way. I don’t know what’s more important when we look at relationships and connection, and vulnerability. And this very meeting of what is in these beginning moments is reparative, is an opportunity to process, reprocess differently, and create safety where there hasn’t been any. This is beautiful. Thank you so much. 

Thank you so much. 

You’re welcome. I know we’re closing in on the end of our time together. Is there anything else you want to say as we start to transition? And then, I’d love for people to know how they can get in touch with you. But is there anything else you want to say?

Yeah. The last thing that just came to mind is, do not get confused by the fact that at the beginning of your relationship, it felt safe; you could get close. And all of a sudden, now these fears are there, and a fear of getting hurt and walking on eggshells. 

I would go as far as to say actually that the beginning is not the kind of vulnerability that I’m actually talking about. Sure, it’s vulnerable. Sure, you’re meeting somebody. And frankly, it’s the anonymity if you’ve really been hurt. It’s the anonymity that’s going to be a balm to your wounds. It will recommit you to letting somebody in again because you feel anonymous, and it can’t hurt you. 

Keep in mind that now they matter to you. Now it’s time that we’re going to have to really talk to someone about what we need. And that is true again in every couple I work with, and it’s hard to wrap our heads around because we all long for that easy, peaceful, organic. And that’s just a different stage. But that is not trust and support and vulnerability. That has to be earned and learned. It’s messy. You’re completely normal if you’re in that situation right now. Nothing could be more normal. It’s not that you’re incompatible. You’re learning how to make each other safe.

Thank you for that. So, so important. And Mitchell, how do people get in touch with what you’re doing and what you’re up to and offering?

Yeah, so I have a website. It’s Mitchell Smolkin. It’s Mitchell with two L. MitchellSmolkin.com. I have my own podcast called The Dignity of Suffering. Please come check it out. And you can reach me on Instagram. It’s @IamMitchellSmolkin. I hope you’ll reach out if this resonates or if you like the podcast. I’d be happy to have a conversation with you.

And when you say conversation, just so people know, what are you offering as far as your support to people that are maybe abroad or at a larger geographical location beyond Sweden?

Well, I do work with people from around the world. I do have a waiting list. It’s just that I can’t really take people on. But I do offer resources on my website for people. They can download those, and they can reach out. I also do a lot of live interviews. I’ll be interviewing Gabor Ma Tei. It’ll be live and people can write in with questions. I’ll be creating also some groups that people can interact with around this material. And so, look out for those if you do want to get in touch.

Nice, wonderful. I’ll make sure to have all of these links on today’s show notes. And again, Mitchell, thank you for spending your valuable time with us today. Thank you. It was a very meaningful and absolute pleasure. Thank you for the opportunity.

Signing Off

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