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A narcissistic personality operates in a way that drains its partner’s emotional, mental, or financial health. During the course of this toxic and abusive relationship, the victim would voluntarily give up their sense of self and boundaries. They would’ve even gone into the state of cognitive dissonance by not actively recognizing their own values in the hopes of pleasing somebody else.

After 16 years of living as a victim of narcissistic abuse, Triptta realized only she could change her situation. She went on doing recovery work to regain that sense of self and rediscover her personal boundaries. Although it’s difficult to go through the healing process, she believes that doing so opens opportunities for a better, healthier partnership and parenthood.

Triptta Neb Butkovich is the founder of DesignYou, a company that helps you discover how to take back your power and learn to love yourself again. Her mission is to provide a safe and open environment for victims of narcissistic and emotional abuse, to help them learn to value themselves and begin to enjoy healthy relationships again.

In this Episode 

08:32 Unlike those with narcissistic personality disorder, people with narcissistic tendencies can connect with others emotionally.

11:56 A narcissist's survival lies in their way of being. They use their relationships as “supplies” to feel better about themselves.

16:49 Narcissists typically don't change. While it's possible to empathize and sympathize with them, the partner should look into building their own sense of self and setting boundaries in their relationship.

21:14 How Triptta goes about building her sense of self after being abused for so long

24:59 The need to dissolve the relationship depends on whether or not someone has the disorder. Although this doesn't apply to those with narcissistic tendencies, their partner has yet to do some inner processing by reflecting on the following questions: Who am I today? What are my values today? What are the boundaries that I've given up for myself?

29:54 The healing journey using a multi-layered, three-pronged approach on the body, mind, and soul

33:33 How practicing your personal boundaries and decision making aligns with your values and legacy statement

36:24 How to get in touch with Triptta

39:15 Self-healing or doing the recovery work gives an ability to co-create healing with a partner and creates a ripple effect by being an inspiration to children or the community

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Decide on what makes you feel comfortable with your physical self. Start with the easiest things you could change. It may be the way you look that goes with what feels natural to you.
• Rediscover your hobbies. Ask yourself, what are the things that give you peace of mind? What activities can you easily lose yourself into?
• Find what actually feeds your soul. Pursue a career that makes you feel whole and complete. Think about this: What are the skills you’d like to develop that gives you that sense of calm and the recognition that you are a purposeful soul on this planet?
• Put yourself first and don’t be afraid to say no. Once you understand your own values and legacy statement, you’ll be less worried about how others perceive you.

Mentioned

ERP 226: How To Understand and Deal With a Narcissist – An Interview With Wendy Behary

ERP 180: What If I Think My Partner Has a Personality Disorder? An Interview With Gabrielle Usatynski

ERP 162: How To Know If You Are With a Narcissist and What To Do About It – Dr. Lisa Firestone

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About Today's Show

Triptta, thank you for joining us today.

Thank you for having me, Jessica.

Yes, and I appreciate your wealth of background and different traditions that you pull from. And today we're really talking about narcissism and particularly how if you're in a relationship with a person who has narcissistic traits, how to really self-care and manage and negotiate some of all of what's at play. You have your own experience around this, it sounds like, which got you into helping people. Is that right?

Absolutely. I was married to a narcissist. I was in a relationship with a narcissist in 2008 for about 16 years. My experience comes from there.

Okay, great. Well, I love that you have your own personal journey that informs how you work with people. There's such a stigma attached to personality disorders, particularly narcissism. I would love to hear your kind of vantage point around what narcissism is and how you look at that, if you're open to sharing.

Sure. I think today, narcissism has become more of a buzzword. I think it's really important to distinguish between what you were referring to in terms of the disorder or a mental disorder, and somebody with narcissistic traits, and how the two really impact a relationship that you're in with a person of that nature.

A person who has a narcissistic personality disorder, that disorder is actually a psychological term, and it's a medical term. An individual with a disorder lacks the empathy connection. I want to clarify that a little further by saying that people who display narcissistic tendencies don't necessarily have a disorder. Narcissism, when we refer to narcissism in relationships, it's really important to be clear. Are we talking about being in a relationship with a person who has a narcissistic personality disorder versus a person who shows, shall I say, an exaggerated amount of narcissism? Because they are two very different things.

As individual, we all have narcissistic tendencies. We all have those traits. The difference between me having a narcissistic trait versus somebody having a narcissistic personality disorder is huge. My narcissistic tendencies will be limited to, say for example, things like do I look good? Am I looking okay? Am I doing this well? Am I sounding good? It's more about an appearance to somebody else. It's also that desire to have a certain appearance that would motivate people, would drive their ambitions, and things like that. But it doesn't impede their ability to connect with another person emotionally. That is what a person with a narcissistic personality disorder cannot do.

They don't have empathy. They can cognitively understand your emotion, but they are unable to actually feel that emotion. That's a huge difference.

Now, how does that impact a relationship? Well, if somebody is missing the empathy connection, then it's difficult to have a relationship with that person. It's really that simple. When the individual is missing that empathy connection, they don't understand the emotions that their partner or the person that they are in a relationship with, they don't understand the emotions that that individual goes through.

So once again, if you don't understand that emotion, how can you be in a relationship with a person who doesn't understand your emotions? So, it's really important to know the difference between the two.

I appreciate you emphasizing that, because I was going to ask you how you distinguish between these tendencies or traits versus a personality disorder? One of the things that you're really marking is the lack of empathy. I'm curious when you have your own experience around being with someone who, I don't know if he was but did you say he's a full narcissist?

Yes. I've had two relationships. One with my ex-mother-in-law, who is what you would call a regular narcissist who has an extroverted personality. And so, it was all about grandiosity. It was all about how she was seen by the world, you know, a social climber, name dropper. But when you talk about how did I recognize that she would miss the empathy connection, so there were different things that they do. It's very subtle, but something that really makes you stand back and go, “Is this person for real?”

So, a few instances in my life that I can share with you with her was, one, her husband, my ex-father-in-law, was diagnosed with stomach cancer in its final stages. The man was just recovering. He's just coming out of surgery. The doctors hadn't even announced the verdict yet to say as to what's the state of his medical condition, when the lady started seeking counselling to live life like a widow. Her husband was still alive. The doctors hadn’t said how long he was going to live or die, how soon. None of that. That was one dead giveaway. But at that time, I guess I was too young to even know or comprehend that something like narcissism existed.

Second one further down the line. During my wedding, she spent more on her outfits. As an Indian, I think this has more to do with understanding the Indian culture and the context. I'm Indian. My ex-husband was Indian. My mother-in-law for our wedding spent more money on her own outfit than she did on her son's outfit. He was the groom. Or anybody else's outfit. Or any of the giveaways or anything that you would prep for in a wedding. Right? So, that's why she had to look the best and had to have a brand name and a label and all of that to go with it.

Another one would be further down in our lives. I had two kids. So, hopefully she was proud of her grandchildren. But she actually turned around and said when she came to me in Dubai, one day, we were going out to say that, “Oh Triptta, don't tell anybody that you've got children.” I was like, “Okay. Why is that? Why would I deny letting somebody we know that we have children?”

“Oh, you know, they'll think that I don't have that much energy because they'll see me as a grandmother.” And there was no pride in the fact that she was a young energetic grandmother. Rather, it was seen as a downside. Right? There are so many small giveaways with things like these that will tell you whether a person is actually faking the empathy and understanding and is totally self-consumed. Everything that they do comes only from their point of view and is only about them. It's nothing to do with anybody else.

Right. It sounds like it's pretty revealing when the questions or the request has so much to do with pivoting or positioning themselves as the center of whatever the comment or the request is about. Okay. So, I have a quick question before we move forward. What are you seeing in the regards of like, do people change? What do you see as far as narcissism?

Both from the point of view of experience and from the point of view of, shall I say, study as well, informal study, I'd like to just say that, narcissist particularly and a narcissistic personality disorder is extremely hard to overcome. I would say primarily because for a narcissist, their way of being is really their survival. They view it as if they're not like that they won't survive.

I think of myself in this big picture, or I think of myself as this mega personality because that is what fuels me and that is what keeps me alive. When you talk about a narcissistic personality disorder, they also have what you call supplies with the relationships that they have. And those supplies are where they put those people down so that they feel better about themselves. Now, if I can't put somebody down, which means I can't feel better about myself, how am I going to survive?

Their strategies and coping mechanisms are taken away and they feel extremely threatened.

Exactly. And so, that's one of the biggest reasons why you would have medical professionals also telling you that narcissists cannot change though some of them you do have a whole set of streams of people who are trying their hardest to help these individuals because they do need help. There's no denying the fact that they need help. But help can only be given to those people who are ready to say yes, I need help. They won't get to saying, “Yes, I need help.” So, what happens to the people who are their supply? The only thing that people who are their supply can actually do is not hang around to wait for the narcissist to change because that's not happening. You can empathize with them, sympathize with them, and then remove yourself from being the supply for the individual.

Okay. To be clear, you're really recommending for people that are listening that perhaps notice even perhaps the narcissistic tendencies, but when there's perhaps the personality disorder at play, that the hope or the wish that they're going to change to really recommend not continuing down that road and really practice staying in one's lane around some role practices and even setting boundaries and removing yourself and not participating in the dynamic in certain ways. And just to be clear, are you saying perhaps even exit the relationship?

Yes. The disorder is on a spectrum. If somebody doesn't have a disorder, that can definitely be managed through therapy, through counselling, through different modalities. But if you're in a relationship with a person who actually has a narcissistic personality disorder there are two things, I would say that’s really required to be done.

One, depending on how long you've been in that relationship, I would almost guarantee that there is a loss of sense of self because of the way people with the narcissistic personality disorder operates. If you've been in a relationship with them, you know that you no longer, shall I say, know your own self. You haven't really taken care of yourself because you haven't been allowed to.

The way a narcissistic personality operates is through the gaslighting, through the abuse. Whether it's emotional, mental, financial. Slowly and steadily, you will find common practices. They will isolate you from the people around you, be it friends, or family, or even colleagues. So, wherever you feel you're receiving your energy from, that will be cut off.

To start building your sense of self again, for a person who has been in a relationship with a narcissist is extremely vital. Not only building your sense of self. You would have also found that if you've been in a relationship with a narcissist, that your personal boundaries have slowly and steadily been eroded, where you don't recognize any boundaries for yourself anymore.

When you have a loss of sense of self, and you have a loss of your boundaries, your decision-making, you become so dependent on that individual, on the narcissist, for the smallest decisions. It's almost down to you starting to take permission from that individual. It sounds silly but you might even turnaround and say, “I'm just going to go for a bath. Is that okay?”

A relationship with a narcissist is so crushing that you need to start focusing on yourself first.

When you are growing, you cannot take their gaslighting. You cannot take the emotional abuse and thereby comes a separation in the relationship.

You're talking about sense of self. I love to know if you can give an example around how to build sense of self, how to potentially start practicing more boundaries, decision making, and growth that may lend towards some separation, and also be a potential place of practice. From your vantage point and your perspective, you see that likely this will lead to more separation. Can you give people some examples here?

Sure. When I was in an abusive marriage, it wasn't just my ex-mother-in-law, but it was also my husband who is a malignant narcissist. I went through a lot of domestic violence. I went through a lot of sexual abuse. I saw financial abuse. I saw abuse in every aspect of my life. So, for me to get a sense of self-worth, I literally went into my work which was coaching and corporate leadership development.

From an external point of view, people thought that I had the best life. I was a successful leadership development expert. I was a strategy expert. I worked with all the blue-chip companies. I was in their boardrooms. But nobody saw my desperate need to prove myself to me first because I was not getting the recognition or the accolades or the sense of self from home.

I actually spent all my time and put in so much energy in creating this indestructible persona of an individual in the corporate world. And none of that was actually me. When I say none of that was actually me, the impact of that was I was a really, really harsh person. I came across like a man in a man's world. When I was going through my divorce, my best friend turned around and said, “Oh, you've got balls of steel.” And all I wanted was a hug. And I wanted to cry. But nobody expected that from me because nobody saw the real me.

My inability to actually just be me, and rediscover who I was behind that persona that I had created, that was the hardest thing of finding myself again. I am a warm person. I don't have balls of steel. I love a hug. I am a person who doesn't have pricklies on the outside. I am a very physical person. But I had become a very distant person. My personal space was huge. I wouldn't allow anybody near me, near my emotions, near me physically. Not even my own children. Not even my two boys. I would find it difficult to have them. So, trying to find myself again, find myself and become soft as I thought I was. That was my hardest part of my journey. And that discovery process, that only started in 2008.

Well, Triptta, as you're talking, I'm like, “Ahrg!” I mean, I know this is past tense but I wouldn't want you to start practicing that softening being in such an unsafe relationship. Right? There are some protective mechanisms at play. Probably trauma responses and your nervous system trying to mitigate against that abuse. How did you begin to do that work?

Yeah, it was hard. Basically, I guess all victims of abuse will get to a point where you see the writing on the wall for years but as I said, it takes away your sense of self to such a degree and your confidence to such a degree that there comes a point when you go, “Enough is enough.” I'm a well-educated woman. I guess one of the things that saw me through was the fact that I was a strong individual who challenged my family, who challenged my culture, and eventually got fed up of the lies to such an extent and the beating that I was taking, and, you know, my money that was being spent. And I was the one who have no happiness.

So, after his fifth affair that I found out about and the absolute mind-boggling level of lies, I literally said, “Okay, I'm putting his bags out.” I packed his bags and I said, “Right. I'm done with this.” But then I didn't know who I was anymore. And so, I started taking all kinds of courses. I attended something known as the Landmark Forum back in 2008. I looked at Reiki. I looked at theta healing. You name the different healing modalities, and I went into a learning mode about myself.

I discovered that I'm just one of those serial learners. I love that and I love that about myself. I love the fact that I know that about myself now.

Oh, my goodness, yes. And I'm on that self-journey path with you. I think it's an ever-evolving process. I'm grateful that you were able to really set a firm break in the relationship because of the toxicity, the abuse, the unhealth, and really to find health, I'm curious what you would say. I mean, it probably would determine about the disease that's in the relationship. But it sounds like to find oneself, perhaps you do need a break, and you do need to dissolve the relationship. Is that always true?

I would say that that's always true. But this is where I say that it depends. If it's a disorder, yes. If it's not a disorder, then we need to look inside ourselves to see as to where have we given up. As I said, our own voluntarily where we've given up our sense of self, where we've given up our own boundaries, or we've gone into cognitive dissonance by not recognizing our values actively and operating against them in the hope of pleasing somebody else. And that is something that I think is what we do with people who have higher narcissistic tendencies than we would have for ourselves, and that's where the distinction would really come in.

If you are in a relationship with a person who has a narcissistic personality disorder, I would absolutely recommend going separate ways. But if you are in a relationship with a person who has higher narcissistic tendencies than you, then I would say go inwards to see who you are today, what are your values today, what are your boundaries that you have given up for yourself?

A lot of times, we want to point the finger in somebody else's direction when we haven't really taken the time to take ownership of what we thought we were giving up, or whatever our reasons were in the moment or in that particular time.

I also think that a lot of times we haven't really spent time articulating and discovering who we really are as individuals and what do we want from ourselves first before we start expecting things from anybody else.

As you've been doing this work in coaching people in this healing and recovery, do you find that as people are doing their inner work and knowing themselves, are there certain tendencies that they used to do that play into that dance with a narcissist? You have sometimes people who are codependent or anxiously attached, or like you said, there's this desire to prove one's worth. What do you see with the pairing? Is there anything you see?

For sure, there is our own history. I think some way or the other we all come from a point of deficit. When I say some way or the other we all come from a point of deficit, I mean, through our growing years, when we are developing our defense mechanisms, and we are developing our protective shields, so to speak. Now, depending on where those protective shields are coming from, you would find that people tend to get into relationships with people who are required to bring a certain aspect out in us. So, if we are not whole and complete and at peace with ourselves, we could have a codependent relationship with another individual because we feel that they're filling a gap, if you see what I'm saying. So, a sense of self.

To me, when I work with people on them gaining a sense of self and gaining their self-worth, it is working on the premise that we were born whole and complete and we are whole and complete and we are going to continue to being whole and complete.

Yes, I hear you. And just these problematic relationship dynamics can actually have a strong impact on that lack of self or even not knowing oneself. I'm a big believer that it's a two-pronged approach that we are responsible for ourselves and the health and the self-esteem of oneself. If we're in a healthy relationship, that that system continues to support that health, right?

For sure.

Can you give us some tips around what it looks like on you or what it looks like on your clients as you're helping them build these skills that maybe they've lost touch with, or maybe even never had?

For sure. I look at it from a multi layered but a three-pronged approach. It is about the body. It is about the mind. It is about the soul. At a very initial and outer layer, for example in my journey, I started my journey with the easiest things that I could change.

The first thing was to change the way I looked. I traditionally had curly hair. For many years, I kept it straight because I had to keep a persona up and I was told that persona needed to look a certain way. So, the first thing that I started changing was changing the way I looked. I started keeping my hair curly because that was natural to me. I started eating better. I started feeling healthier. That's as far as the body was concerned at an external layer.

Then, in terms of the mind, starting to look at what my hobbies were. I'd forgotten what hobbies were all about. And in fact, by the time I got to that stage where I needed to rediscover what my hobbies were, I found that I didn't even know where to start. I help people find out who they are today. Your experiences in life change you physically, mentally, and emotionally. So, the journey that I help people go on was pretty much my journey as well, which is, how do you feel comfortable with your physical self where there's no shame, there's no guilt, there's no embarrassment attached to it.

Then also moving into areas like hobbies. What are the things that give you peace of mind? What are the things that you lose yourself in when you're doing it? Try and identify those actions or those things that you can say and do. I discovered that hiking for me was a huge piece. It gave me so much calm and so much peace being at one with nature, exerting myself physically. Things that I'd actually never done before. I ended up climbing Kilimanjaro twice, taking my second son up. At the age of 13, I became a role model for him and he wanted to be physically fit. I adopted three kids when I did the Inca Trail in Peru and Lawrence tracks. So, finding what actually feeds your soul.

Oh, that's so moving and beautiful.

The process really is to peel the onion one layer at a time. And yes, it starts externally. It starts with how you look and feel physically. It looks at what are the skills and competencies that you have that will make you feel worthwhile. What is it that you would like to develop that would make you feel worthwhile? How does all of these make you feel whole and complete and give you that sense of calm that you are a purposeful soul on this planet?

So beautiful. And Triptta, I'm curious if there's anything you want to say to support that alignment and that wholeness and that health. What practicing boundaries and decision making from that place? Is there anything you want to say on that note?

Absolutely. I found that your boundaries are so critical in every relationship. But rediscovering my boundaries was really, really hard. I went through a process where I asked myself a question, basically.

When I die, what is it that I want people to say about me? The only thing that people would ever say about me is what they see me do and how they experienced me. That really made me understand what are my values. My legacy statement led to me understanding, or shall I say breaking down my values to myself. And from my values and my legacy statement, I built my boundaries of how I want it to be seen and how I want it to be experienced by my family, by my friends. And I stick by them.

I find that every time I compromise on a value, there's a sense in me that first goes, “Oh, you're being selfish if you're not going to compromise.” And then I look at the fact that saying no to somebody and compromising on your values is actually not selfish. But it is the only thing that will keep you and your legacy aligned. Can you change that over time?

Absolutely. We all evolve as people so I can change my legacy statement. But I need to know what I'm working towards. I need to have a direction of how am I operating? And my values are my guiding compass for all my decision making.

Because then it becomes less about, “Oh, I'm worried about hurting this person's feelings or how they're perceiving me in a particular way.”

Exactly.

Yes, it's being in service of that higher legacy, value, and purpose.

That is correct. You cannot please everybody all the time. You can't do it. You can't go in 10 different directions.

So beautiful. Triptta, how do people get in touch with what you're up to, what you're doing, and what you're teaching?

You can look me up on DesignYou.ca. That's the website. You have my contact details there. You can also join the Facebook community, where I'm constantly posting suggestions, stories. Not just mine, other people. Lots of contributions over there. Also a few developmental modules in understanding and building your value system. How do you set your boundaries? What's your mindset? It’s really important to be able to identify different mindsets that you really need to go on this growth journey. A lot of resources there.

Sounds like it. Are you also working with groups or individuals?

I work primarily with individuals. We don't do so much in terms of group sessions as far as this is concerned but there is a community for people to reach out to that you will find through the website. It’s a Facebook community so that people can share their experiences and get the support that you need or want from a group of people who are going through similar experiences and similar journey. So that is available for people the minute they join the Facebook group.

I love that service because so many people feel alone in this. To just feel a sense of community and not alone and strength, it's so important. Well, thank you for being a light in this world and what you're helping people overcome and get through. It's tremendous. I appreciate what you're doing.

Not at all. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I know it's a huge topic. There are so many different approaches to building yourself under varied circumstances. I found that this was the approach that worked for me. It took a really long time, as in from 2008 is when I started my growth journey to up until two years ago, I would say that I was still establishing and finding myself as I change countries and things. But it doesn't have to take so long. I wish I had somebody that I could have reached out to who would have guided me through this process rather than me discovering it on my own and taking eight to 10 years to do it.

No kidding.

My offering back to anybody and everybody is, there is a shorter timeline, you can save yourself a timeline and get quicker results and reach a state of happiness easier and faster. Mine is just one of the methodologies.

Yes. And I realized I didn't ask this question. I was thinking about it. What are you seeing with people that enter into a relationship after doing this recovery work or this healing work? What are you seeing as people negotiate relationship after this work?

Actually, that's a really important question. I am remarried now. I have a seven-year-old daughter after my first two who are 21 and 24. I think if I haven't done my recovery work, and I see so many people where you get stuck in a similar abusive situation, if you haven't healed yourself, you're just looking at filling that gap again that you believe exists within you. If you heal yourself and you do this recovery work, you're attracting, shall I say, a partner and not somebody who's going to fulfil you, but you're attracting a partner.

You actually experience a loving situation. You bring up your children, if you were to have another child like I did. The way in which you approach life, the way in which you bring up your children, what my boys get to see of my relationship now versus what I had with their father is a huge example in itself. When I see them share a good relationship, that is a future relationship in the making for them. It gives them opportunity to understand that their relationships going forward don't have to be toxic like their parents.

I love it. There's an ability to co-create healing with a partner and the ripple effect of how that is healing and inspiring and a great model for others, like children and others, extended family and even community.

Absolutely. I wouldn't be in this practice if it wasn't for my experience. I wouldn't be doing what I do in terms of coaching if it wasn't for my experience. I do a lot of yoga work now as well. I do a lot of chakra balancing and everything that kind of amazingly leads back to being whole and complete in yourself. I gave up my corporate world to do this because this is so much more rewarding.

It's beautiful. Well, Triptta, like I said, I will make sure to have the link to your website with all the resources and guidance and support and your coaching. And again, thank you for sharing your valuable time with us today.

Thank you so much, Jessica. Thank you for having me.

Signing Off

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