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On today's episode of The Empowered Relationship Podcast, I welcome Dr. Jeanne Michele, who gives her valuable insights into strengthening a relationship after an affair. We discuss the landscape of long-term intimacy, why the challenges we face can help us discover opportunities for personal and relational growth, and how we engage and co-create with our significant other in that relationship growth.

Dr. Jeanne shares her experience of where disconnect can occur in relationships when we withhold our feelings and how we can avoid getting to that stage with our partner. We dive into what kind of changes people can make in their relationships to rebuild trust after infidelity and how to initiate courageous conversations to create positive impact. Opening ourselves up emotionally can make us feel vulnerable, but it is vital to move past hurt and pain into a connected future. 

Dr. Jeanne Michele designs and delivers personalized programs to men, women, and couples to help them create lives, relationships, and business partnerships that thrive. She is passionate about helping people create extraordinary relationships and lives. Her work immediately addresses crises, such as infidelity, grief, and lack of life direction, as well as the day-to-day challenges faced by couples and individuals seeking love, recovering from heartache, and those seeking greater clarity in their home and business lives. Individuals and couples experiencing a love or identity crisis find that working with Dr. Jeanne provides immediate relief and gives them the tools to create lasting change.

In this Episode 

06:52 What made Dr. Jeanne turn towards the issue and challenge of infidelity in relationships

09:52 What rebuilding trust and forging new connections can look like after infidelity — and how having those courageous conversations can be challenging after deal-breaker situations 

12:11 Shining a light on a deficiency or discontent in a relationship can expose issues that need to be addressed and explored. 

14:45 The three fundamental needs that should be fulfilled in a relationship 

18:03 Why it’s helpful to highlight the masculine dynamic and historical development when discussing the underlying causes of emotional connections or affairs outside the primary bond 

31:07 Understanding the feminine need to be seen and to be validated and the inner conflict that comes when boundaries are crossed 

34:39 Dr. Jeannie gives her tips on specific language to use when starting a courageous conversation about potential infidelity with a partner and why having those conversations can have a long term beneficial impact

37:46 Why baring yourself honestly and authentically helps you to connect with your spouse

41:15 Why courageous conversations and even relational-emotional hygiene help build trust in a relationship

44:43 How Dr. Jeanne supports couples to do the repair work and navigate the journey of recovering from an injury like infidelity

48:45 How to connect with Dr. Jeanne Michele and download her free ebook

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Set aside time to have regular conversations with your partner to address issues that you need to get out in the open and keep those channels of communication open
• Don’t lose sight of your fundamental needs or those of your spouse in the course of your daily life 
• If you’re feeling a disconnect in your relationship, put time and effort into bridging the gap, even if it requires a level of vulnerability that can be difficult to engage with 
• Understand that the long term beneficial impact of challenging conversations strengthens your relationship and enhances the connections you have curated
• Actively engage with the idea that building trust takes time and commitment to the little things in your relationship, as well as the big things

Mentioned

Helping Couples Heal Website

Helping Couples Heal Podcast

Living & Loving Courageously Website

Dr Dan Siegel's Website

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

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Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About Today's Show

Dr. Jeanne Michele, thank you for joining us today.

Thank you, Jessica. I'm so happy to be here with you and your audience.

I know that you do so many things to help people in relationship and couples. Today, we're going to be really looking at a tender topic in the way of infidelity. Before we pivot to that, I would love people to get a little bit more connected to you and where you're coming from and your background, what got you interested in working with people in the way of relationship.

Well, thank you, Jessica. I have a very strong corporate background. I started out in the corporate world and worked my way up into training and human resources. The thing I found that I loved the most was facilitating conversations between a supervisor and their employee. I did a lot of work in that area. As I began to grow in that, I started to go back to school. I ultimately got my masters and then my doctorate and I really decided that then it was time to jump off and be in business with myself. I love the people aspect.

And so, how that first happened was, you know how it is. I'm sure when you started out, like we jumped in, “I can do anything. Just come and see me and I can help you.” And then I ended up having some moms come in who were experiencing postpartum depression. What I learned about these moms is there was a typical MO, and that was, a lot of times, they're very strong career women who all of a sudden had a baby and they were struggling with the unpredictability of rearing a child. Their husbands requested to come in because they did not know how to support their wives. Out of that came a love for relationships.

Beautiful. I love that it organically almost found you, so to speak, as you were saying yes and really wanting to support people, and also the complexity of tracking both people's experience holding value for both. And then also, the dynamic between. It's almost as if it's a third thing to focus on the patterns. When did you start noticing the issue and the challenge of infidelity? What got you turning towards that topic?

Well, when I grew up in the corporate world, in the days that I was there, a lot of times, we found that bosses and the people that worked for them sometimes were having an affair.

“Joe and Susan were having an affair.” Ultimately, Susan disappeared in those days. It was typically the woman that they paid money to and she was gone. So, that was my corporate experience with that.

And then one day, a guy came into my office. He sat on my couch and he had his head in his hand and tears in his eyes. He said, “I've been having an affair and I just got caught. My wife is so hurt and devastated. I don't know what I was thinking. I don't know how this happened. I really, really want my wife back. I am not sure what to do.”

That began my deep journey into infidelity. I found that after that one guy showed up, I'm imagining you find this in your practice too, Jessica, that all of a sudden, all these other guys, it's almost like I sent out a radar, more men started showing up who were having affairs and telling me a similar story. And then, I really started to dive in deep and work with the guys to help them figure out kind of what happened, and working with their wives and helping them go through the heartbreak in the room with their husband and rebuild trust.

So, that was my kind of dive into infidelity. I find that we have such judgement about people. I see these people coming in and it's a real struggle. The woman or the guy who has been betrayed will say, “Man, I always thought this was a deal breaker for me.” And then, they have to reconcile the value that they put on fidelity with what has happened with their partner having an affair. It takes a while to rebuild the trust and get through that and be able to see it in a different way.

Yes. To contend with this previously being a non-negotiable and a boundary, and then having that shatter, and having to really look at what all is there. Is there an opportunity to rebuild trust and connection? What does that look like? As you're talking, it sounds like you have such compassion and understanding for this experience. Can you speak to that at all?

Oh, thank you for that. I do and I'm happy that comes across because it is a delicate thing to balance. I have to walk into this with a compassionate heart and wanting to understand both people. There are lots of things that precipitate someone moving into a connection with someone outside of their marriage. I can't walk into it with judgement. I want to hear and understand their story.

I find, generally speaking, and I don't like stereotypes because we're all complex beings and it's all different, but I'm finding that men are looking to be needed and women who tend to have affairs are looking more for validation, at least that's my experience on the whole.

Life can swallow us up. You have kids, you've got soccer, basketball, baseball, and making sure the kids are okay. I find that couples begin to put less priority on their relationship. And then all of a sudden, you're at work or you're out for an evening and someone catches your eye. You feel that spark of connection or chemistry or desire start to well up. Maybe you haven't felt that for a while so you interpret it that it comes from that person.

And that connection and reality, it's tapping into something inside that has gone dormant or been missing. And if you can take that conversation back to your spouse, it can open something up. But it's difficult. Having a courageous conversation with someone can be very challenging. So, instead of having that conversation, sometimes we can slip into connection with somebody else. And then by the time you talk about having an affair, the conversations are much more challenging.

And there's so much on what you just said, Jeanne. I love that you're highlighting that if we're not aware, then we can notice an attraction and have a fantasy or even some fallacy that it's this other person that is providing this experience for us. And perhaps it's really shining a light on a deficiency or discontent. If we really use that as information, we can bring it back to our relationship and open up something that perhaps hasn't been addressed or explored. Even as we say that and I think about the clients that I know that have gone through this journey, as you said, a lot that precipitates this. So, the holding and the withholding and perhaps even hiding, or even denying one's own needs, there's not even sometimes a conscious awareness that, “Oh, I am needing more affection. I'm needing more attention. Or I'm wanting to feel seen by you.” And when we are not having these conversations, it kind of whittles away. And it starts to really create some disconnect. And then we find someone else that's providing that thing and it's so compelling.

Right. Beautifully stated. Absolutely spot on with my experience in this arena as well. There are three “know”. We need to be known, noticed, and know we matter. I think those are very fundamental needs that we can lose sight of just going about our daily lives. And like you said, we frequently can lose touch with ourselves and not even realize that we have lost touch with ourselves until something sparks this little place inside that's like, “Oh, my gosh. I feel alive.” What I find, Jessica, is when someone first connects and begins having an affair, whether that be an emotional affair, a physical affair, there's all different types of affairs. But that sense of aliveness starts to spark and you didn't even realize there was a little hole there, and that you are missing that. All of a sudden, you're feeling seen and noticed, and that just sparks an aliveness that frequently the person brings back into their marriage. And for a while, at the beginning of an affair, sometimes the marriage actually seems better. The spouse will say, “Oh, this person is showing up this way.” And wow, I thought they're really connecting with me, because that sense of aliveness has been sparked.

So important. And just to reiterate, the three needs that you are naming is to be known? Say it again.

To be known, to be noticed, and to know we matter. They are called the three knows. Even though they're all spelled like no.

Right. Thank you for that. You mentioned gender. I try to be really inclusive on the show, no matter how someone identifies as far as gender. Sometimes for simplicity or even clarity and even stereotypically, when we look at a male experience versus a female experience, sometimes that can be helpful, whether or not it's neuro pathways or other things. So, you're talking about for a man's experience to be needed. Can you say a little bit more about that?

Sure. And I love what you're sharing too because I've also worked with people who have had a same sex kind of an affair too. I know, like you said, there's gender identification, and we try to be more fluid than binary.

We are in a place right now culturally and societally, where women have worked very hard to make their place in the world. From the roots of the 50s or wherever, where women stayed home and men went out and they were the ones working primarily, to a place where anyone, hopefully, has the freedom to design their life and do what they're passionate about and bring in financial income and all of that. As that has shifted and women have become stronger in being able to have a place and a career outside of the home too, I think sometimes it can be confusing relationally in relational roles.

And a lot of times guys, the masculine energy, whether it tends to show up in a woman or a man, the idea of wanting to be someone's hero. We talk about women process out loud, “I have a problem and I just want to talk about it.” And the guy's like, “Okay, what can we do to fix it?” And so, when men feel like they can no longer provide that hero type of support, like “She's so capable of taking care of herself, I don't know where I fit anymore.” That doesn't mean that a woman needs to pretend to not be capable but I think there's an awareness there of that masculine-feminine polarity, which is so important in relationships, that can be lost.

And then, someone else shows up. I think that's why there tends to be proclivity to it connecting with somebody a little younger that shows up with looking wide eyed at this person and who they are. A lot of times, affairs occur in a working setting. And, you know, he feels wanted. He feels desired. He feels needed. “She looks up to me.” He feels important. And again, there's an opportunity to take that back and talk to your spouse about it but sometimes we don't because it's easier to kind of slide into a connection of feeling that with someone else. Does that make sense? I just said a whole heck of a lot.

It makes perfect sense. And it's so helpful to highlight the masculine and the dynamic and historical development. Here we're looking at modern day society as we're speaking and the roles are less defined in the way of gender.

One of the things that I was thinking about, Jeanne, as you were talking is that a lot of times when I've worked with men that have had an outside connection or affair with an outside person outside of their primary bond and their marriage, that they've had long standing needs that perhaps haven't been addressed or that they haven't maybe even vocalized or articulated.

I was thinking, how does this fit with what you're saying around wanting to be needed. But maybe the other side of the coin, that in the process of feeling needed, they feel that adoration, they feel that they matter and they're wanted. But I guess I would love to hear from you. What do you think?

Yes, I do think it is that they feel that sense of someone longing for them. “I can go out and I can fix.” “She respects my opinion.” Sometimes when you got two people and they're kind of struggling with things, they forget the importance of sitting down and saying, “Hey, I'd like to hear what you have to say about that because that creates intimacy.”

I think a lot of times affairs, and I'm not just talking about having a few drinks and having a one-night stand, but when you cultivate a relationship with somebody, there's something about the intimacy of feeling important to that person. And so, if you look at the needs maybe that aren't being met, the need to be noticed and to know that we matter, sometimes we lose that just a little bit in the day-to-day complexities of life.

You start to feel that chemistry and that connection with someone else. And then, you throw on top of it, the adrenaline rush of the secrecy, which is such a part of an affair. We have this little secret connection of communication that no one else or we believe no one else knows about. That's an adrenaline rush too. So, all those endorphins and neurochemical start to spark. That is one of the things that I think keeps an affair going. We love feeling that way. And if we haven't felt that way for a while, that is a part of it, it's a relational high. It's like an addict that has to keep going back to that substance in order to feel good.

And then there's also the bridging the gap in the distance and the longing and the not having and then it can create even fantasy worlds that then even gets into limerence. This can just be the whole thing.

So, let's go back for a moment because I don't want to lose two things that I'm thinking as we're talking. As I'm still contemplating the man's experience, as we're talking about in this frame, and the masculine and wanting to be needed, but also having real longing, for affection, intimacy, physical/sexual intimacy. I’m like, “Oh, well if I think about the being needed, and you're talking about this wide-eyed polarity between the feminine and the receiving.

On the feminine, that the natural flow would be affection. “I'm so grateful. Oh my gosh, thank you so much. There's this natural gratitude and this natural affection that seems to come if I feel into it and that that perhaps is a part of historically would have maybe occurred in these more like stereotypical dynamics. Is that right?

Yes, absolutely. I think that there's a part of us that long for some of the basic instincts of that connection and that polarity. It occurs in our primitive brain. And so, sometimes I think we’re not as cognitively in touch with that until it's sparks. And there's something about that polarity. As I think about that, I'm getting goosebumps right now. That is an exciting part of connecting with somebody. That's what happens when you first fall in love with somebody. For the most part, we experience that adrenaline rush, the springtime of love, and oh, my gosh, you know.

I want to go back to something you said too. When we first meet someone, it is, I want to say 90% fantasy but let's say 70% fantasy. You're not yet having to deal with the day-to-day things that happen in life so we can form this whole idea and this idealization of who this person is in our mind. It feeds that longing and desire. And then, you have the concrete reality of dealing with kids and work and all the things that you do within the day-to-day life too.

No kidding. And as you're talking earlier about stereotypical gender norms, or even masculine feminine roles, and perhaps, I mean, I think as we develop, and it's more egalitarian, and there's more equity in the way of masculine feminine roles, that there's a lot of opportunity that we're still figuring out. I think it can be challenging for the feminine, it can be challenging for the masculine role, and there's a unique journey in both respects. Having said that, if I think about the traditional gender or masculine – feminine role, it just happened. There didn't need to be as clear explicit communication, or even if we're talking about a man, really saying explicitly, “I want to feel wanted. I want to feel needed.” That that just happened before and now it's like this, bridging this gap and even requiring a level of vulnerability that can be difficult to, I think, engage with if it's kind of new territory.

Absolutely, Jessica. When I take a step back and I look more culturally and more societally, especially in the Western world, women have come from a place of being seen as “not as important as”. We have worked very hard. We have the women's movement and so many things where women have worked to find their place. I think now women feel stronger. I think in the process, we can tend to give out conflicting message to our guys. Message as, “We want you to be strong. We want you to have our back. We want you to be vulnerable. We want you to tell us your secrets. We want you to be like a friend.”

I think that it was simpler when it when the gender roles were more defined. I think now we're coming to a place where I'm seeing men show up in such beautiful ways. Looking at how do I be more vulnerable, and here's what I want. I really love my wife and I want to be more emotionally expressive.

So, I think you are correct. We are in a pattern of growth for both the masculine and the feminine. I think the feminine has done more work, generally speaking, to get to where we are. And I think men are starting to really enter into the arena of realizing the power of connecting, of coaching, of therapy, whatever genre that shows up to help them work more deeply on themselves.

I'm especially seeing it come in with younger guys who don't tend to carry as much. They haven't been through everything. The guys are in their late 40s, early 50s, 60s that have to unlearn some things that they've learned. I'm seeing this magic open up within the masculine. And then, it's starting to show up within relationship and how people relate to one another. Are you noticing that too?

Yes, I was just talking to my husband. I don't ever talk about my clients specifically, but sometimes I might say things somatically like, “I'm noticing more men are being conscious of genderizing. Even telling me, I don't want to genderize or really sensitive to some of these things that we're talking about.” And yes, I have found for years, just the male or the masculine opening up to some of these territories, and what is getting cultivated out of that is just magnificent.

Yes, I agree. And you know, one thing I tell people about a little bit of a difference when women show up in my practice versus guys. Women will show up and say, “Oh, I need a little tune up. I just want to talk. I've got some things going on, I want to bounce off a few.” And generally speaking, this isn't 100% true but guys come in when they've been run over by a truck and they're bleeding and they're like, “Oh, my gosh, I need your help.” And when a guy comes in, I'm finding that they are so loyal to the process. It's like creating a space where men too can feel heard and validated and not judged. And put some things on the table they're working at and really grow and experience, then that growth extending to how they relate to their woman and better understand. It's such a beautiful connection, but I find it takes a little longer typically for a guy to knock on the door and say, “Hey, can you help?”

Right. Okay. I want to go back to a thread. What are you seeing? I know you work more with men. Is that right?

It's probably close to 50/50 but I have more men coming in. Generally speaking, I probably do work a little bit more with men.

Okay. But you work with a lot of women too. And so, when you talked about some of the female or the feminine need is to be seen and to be validated. Can we talk a little bit about that?

Absolutely. And I can give you an example. Like you, I pull examples and they can be composite stories. So, one story, to get more specific is, I worked with this woman who is kind of coming up in her career and really starting to see herself and experience her strength in her career pursuits. At home, her husband tended to drink a little too much and really wasn't seeing or acknowledging the progress she felt so strong about and confident about at work. Her boss did see that though. And he would validate her and let her know how good of a job she was doing and help her grow. They had a really nice connection. And then one day, she was standing behind him and they were looking at a project they were working on. He started rubbing the back of her leg. She's like, “Oh, okay. That feels a little too familiar.” But she didn't move bcause she didn't know what to do and it surprised her. And then all of a sudden, they started having conversation. She would come in his office and he would close the door. Things evolved. They went out and had a drink or they stayed late after a work party. Then, he reached over and he kissed her. She also was just so enamored with him and who he was, and feeling good about her career that ultimately it slid into a pretty deep emotional affair with some physical aspects to it. Until she realized, “Wait a minute. This isn't who I want to be.” But it's so easy to slide into feeling that validation and someone else who has a little bit more fluid boundaries who starts crossing the line.

I hear so many people, and this is just, I would say more of the common that people don't set out to have an affair. It's like, “How did I get here?” And it's this slippery slope that I made this okay, but as you're speaking to this real inner conflict of this feels uncomfortable, this is a boundary that's been crossed. And yet it feels so compelling and so satiating. And then, we make that okay, and then we make something else okay. And then all of a sudden, we're like, “Ah, too much. Wait a minute. What's going on?”

You realize something that initially helped you feel good about you because there was that connection, that strength, and that seeing again, that being known or being seen and being noticed felt so good. And then, it starts to slide. And then you don't exactly know how to set that boundary inside of yourself because there's other things that you're getting, as you said, that are so compelling, that it's hard to take a step back and say, “Well, wait a minute. If I say no, if I let go into this, (which starts out a little bit more subtly) then do I lose this too?” And I think it gets confusing.

No kidding. And as you're talking, again, I'm really aware of the compassion that I’m feeling that there's almost like this dam. It's this cumulation of all the times that I have sacrificed my need, or I've kept moving forward even though I felt sadness or hurt or discontent. And we had moments, days, weeks, months, years, and the pain that's there, it's like this outside person pokes. They're querying or they're kind of like accessing. And it's like, if we really turn towards a lot of that, it can be huge.

Yes, absolutely. It's when you start to notice, like, okay, I'm making sure that I'm wearing my best dress when I know someone's always going to be in the office, for example. I'm feeling that spark of connection. I'm feeling really good around that person. I mean, that's a signal that I'm starting to be in a little bit of the orange zone there. It’s not quite red yet but something is going on that needs to be addressed. Or there's a longing here that you're experiencing that’s showing up. And I find that for women, as you were saying, Jessica, you know, sometimes we feel like at home, we kind of take on the role of doing everything for everybody. I can take care of the kids. I’m making sure that, you know, it sounds traditional, but the house is picked up, that my husband feels good when he comes home. And then, all of a sudden, there's this feeling of loss of self. And when someone else validates that it's like, “Oh, I'm seen. Oh, this person notices me. I feel good here.”

I think, again, that gets confusing. But initially, if we can see that as a signal that, “Wait a minute. Where's my self-care here? How am I making sure that I get fed? Am I going out with girlfriends? Am I getting a massage or whatever those things are? Even taking a weekend away. So, I'm not so swallowed up by my life. Or talking to my husband and saying, “Hey, something's going on here. I'm just feeling a little lost here.” Those conversations can help if the spouse will also take notice and take that seriously. And you can really sit down and set up a conversation so that it's in a space where everyone's open to talking and going a little deeper.

Jeannie, I love what you're saying because it can perhaps even be preventative, right? If we're sort of seeing and it can catch this signal or indicator that alerts us to this conflict, that we can have some really important conversations. Can you give people some more specific language that this could feel like a sweaty 10-minute conversation? Right? Terrifying. I mean, do you actually recommend saying, “I noticed you’re having attraction towards someone. And here's what I think it's about.” Help people here. What do you suggest?

Beautiful. I think it depends upon the couple. Yes, the ideal would to be able to go to somebody and say, “Hey, I am noticing that somebody sparked this attention in me. There’s something in that that sparked me to kind of take a look at our lives. There's something going on here that I want to share with you.”

I love that. But to back up a little bit, I think we have to really do some prep work to having what I call a courageous conversation. I think that, first what you do is inside of yourself, you think about that person. And you think about, you know, kind of your connection with them and your love for them and what you would like to create. So, it first is an internal process.

And then you set aside a time to talk and say, and sometimes men dread that, “I really need to talk about our relationship.” After you're married for a while, I don't know. Hopefully it's not as big a deal. Anyway.

If I can interject, Jeanne, you're saying something really important. If I'm hearing you correctly, you're saying it's not the conversation. It's the long-term impact and the benefit of having the conversation that if we can be clear about that intention, that's the motivator. Not that there's pleasure in the conversation. It's what you're going to get through the conversation.

Thank you for highlighting that and not having me rush through it. Because the prep work, especially the inner prep is probably the most important. And when you take a step back and consider what you want the quality of your relationship, your marriage, your partnership, whatever it is, to be, and you allow that to sink in and drive you, that's so powerful.

Again, that's an internal process you do first if you're the one that wants to sit down and have the conversation. And then, you set aside a time to talk and you make sure you're well fed, you're well-watered. If you have kids, the kids are in bed and you have an open space to talk. You don't have that conversation when you're rushed or it's become so urgent that you just blurt things out. You really set it aside.

And then, it can be really helpful to set your attention out loud. “My intention is to create an open space to talk about some things that are a little difficult to talk about that I'm noticing inside of myself.” I heard this analogy once that I think is really good. I'm going to throw it out.

We talk about wanting to be empathetic. That is the ability to put ourselves in someone else's shoes. That sounds like a great thing to do. However, what I heard someone say is that, “But someone else's shoes might not fit us. They might pinch our feet. They might be too big.”

We're both going to show up. It's almost like we're both showing up naked to this conversation. The Buddhists have this philosophy that's called a beginner's mind. We're showing up in a place of openness to see what can come out of it, not with a preconceived idea of what we need to hear or our expectations of someone else.

It’s like you're setting the table.

Yes, setting the table. Love it. Great analogy. You're setting the table. You get out the pretty tablecloth, you put some flowers on it, you get out the good dishes, your favorite plates. And then, you begin with something positive. “I love our relationship, and I really love you. Whatever those things are, I love who you are.” “I have a challenge that I like to talk about.”

It can also be when you are coming home late every night. “I noticed that I'm feeling more disconnected from you. I really would like to work on that because I want to connect with you.” The impact of that is a disconnection. So, talk about a little bit of the impact of whatever the behavior is and what you've noticed. And then a deeper cut is, “This is how it makes me feel.”

And then, to take the problem, instead of having it come between you. “This is a problem between you and me.” You've set the problem out in front of you. “How can we handle this in the future? What's getting in the way of us connecting? Is there something going on that's causing you to stay late at work? Are you feeling disconnected too?” You can enter a conversation with that sense of openness and curiosity. And then, being really present and listening also to them to understand rather than to defend a position.

So again, I said a lot, I would love to hear your thoughts on that. You do a great job of encapsulating some of the things that I throw out there.

Well, I love what you're saying. And I recognize, Jeanne, that with everything you're saying it could be expanded and there could be steps even. Each thing that you're saying, whether or not it's being careful to talk about the behavior and not talking about the other person and character attacks, staying in your lane, and really talking about what happens for you so your partner can understand your experience, less of how they're wrong. And doing your best to stay present. And to be curious and not have this fixed agenda around like, “I need to persuade you to see it my way so you'll come to my side and give me what I needed.” And so, I really acknowledge everything you're saying is so powerful and can be expanded. I know it's difficult to really do a comprehensive guidance on a podcast. This is why you offer so much more. So, I would just invite people if you're resonating to really come and reach out to Jeanne in all the different ways that we're going to talk about in a moment. So, thank you for that. And before we lose time with you, Jeanne, I know you do so much as you mentioned earlier to help people build trust and repair. Can we pivot towards that and what you would like to share around that aspect?

Sure. I think that trust is rebuilt over time. When it comes to something like experiencing a crisis, sometimes people say, “Oh, I just want to go back to how it was.” Well, it will never go back to how it was. However, you can with intentionality and courage and desire, create something that could address things that might not have never been addressed otherwise. Building trust takes time, commitment to the little things and honoring your word is so huge. Not, “Oh, I'll be home by six.” And then, 6:30 you're still not home and you haven't called or whatever.

It's to have that be top of mind awareness that I am going to be my word and a commitment that we make to one another that really helps to grow the roots of trust in a relationship between two people.

Thank you. That trust and the attention and the care that's given in the little things really help build over time just this deeper sense of trust. I remember I was working with a client recently. She was like, “If I can't trust you in these things, how can I trust you in the bigger things?” It really does translate. I think in our nervous system, we really want to experience that.

Even as I'm asking you this question, Jeanne, I'm recognizing that the courageous conversations that you were referring to is probably another way to build trust. We call it even relational-emotional hygiene that we're engaged in this ongoing connecting about these sometimes scary topics and having this courageous honesty and openness that builds trust. I know, when my husband says something to me that's difficult or really hard for him, I again in my nervous system start to feel like, “Oh, he will do the hard work and the courageous opening and honesty with me rather than what might feel convenient to turn away and hide.”

Absolutely. I love what you're sharing about the nervous system. I've studied with, I don't know if you've heard of Dan Siegel. He does interpersonal neurobiology. There is a whole stream of chemicals that also light up as we connect. There is you, me, and us. And there's this energy between us. And as you say, we had this idea in the past that being vulnerable is weak. Well, we know now that being vulnerable, it's hard and it creates intimacy and connection. Like you said, when your husband would show up and have a courageous conversation with you. I would imagine it is causing you to feel closer to him. That shared vulnerability is very powerful. And that willingness to engage in the courageous conversation with you, it moves something in that connection.

Absolutely. Yes! Yes, yes. Absolutely. Okay. And is there anything else you want to say about the repair work you help couples with and the journey of recovering from an injury like infidelity?

I think it boils down to coming back to realizing that the love is there and that the love is strong.

A lot of which we've spoken about today. And when you can come back to that love, love of self, you know, love who you are and love of that person, you really can move mountains. It's about gaining clarity because sometimes in that deeper discovery and exploration, you realize that you need something else and that the relationship isn't what you want going forward. And then, it's how do we separate in a way that doesn't have to be devastating or decimating to either one of us. That sometimes can be the outcome too. But I think it's getting clear on what you need and what you would like and what you want going forward. It may start out as a crisis but it can be an absolutely insightful beautiful discovery that sets the stage for an amazing relationship going forward. Not the way you might choose to set that up. But really set up the stage for honesty, authenticity, vulnerability, opening up. It breaks something open inside.

Yeah, thank you for that because there can be such a breakthrough with the breakdown if we are willing to turn towards that. And Jeanne, I'm aware that there might even be couples that have lost that sense of love, right? They don't feel it. But there could be even a willingness to engage in this process that can be an exploration around what can we create, what is there. And that is good information. It might not mean that we decide to move forward but if we really lost our way, can we find us? Can we find ourselves respectively? If we're really coming to the table, what is there? And that time and grace to honor that. And then also, there might be other people that are experiencing maybe toxicity in the behavior, whether or not some person, partner has some personality or even narcissistic traits. Again, without making that person bad or wrong but the dynamic or even the behavior and the importance of really looking at that, or even sex addiction. This all is sometimes a part of the bigger landscape. I think what we're talking about today aren't necessarily those things. And this type of information/conversation can be really revealing.

Right. I 100% agree. There are so many things that can be going on that cause you to lean towards somebody else. And when you come back and you look at what you need, what you want in relationship, and you know, we haven't, like you said, talked about abuse or narcissism or things like that, that you can sometimes an affair or being noticed by someone else causes you to look at yourself and feel more confident in who you are, and say, “You know what? I see what's available out there.” It may not be that person that's married. It may not be that individual. But what is true for me and I am setting strong boundaries, and I don't want to be in a relationship with someone who is ex or with someone who treats me like this. I deserve better. And sometimes it can be a spark with somebody else that causes you to come back to yourself and say, “Uh-uh, I'm setting a boundary here and I'm moving forward.” That's challenging too but it's also very enlightening when you get to the point where you can really see yourself and decide what you need moving forward. And either someone wants to shift and change and is willing to come along with you and do what's necessary or sometimes it's saying, “I need to get out of this relationship.”

And Jeanne, this is so beautiful. I'm so grateful for the work that you're doing. How can people get in touch with what you're offering?

Well, my website is entitled Living and Loving Courageously. And if someone goes on to it, there is a kind of a little eBook that you can get. That is the 10 simple things that you can do today to strengthen your relationship. It's really working a lot on mindset. I give some thoughts and ideas. And so, that's something they can get by just going on to my website. And if you're on a mobile phone, you just need to scroll down to the bottom. If you're on a computer, it will just automatically pop-up and you can sign up.

There's a contact page on my website too that if someone has any questions or something that's going on with them, I will be happy to get back and just answer a question or offer some thoughts or ideas that might help with the situation. Any and all of the above. So, if anyone's interested in connecting, you can do it through my website.

Beautiful. So, it sounds like you offer a free guide for people to understand certain principles and mindset around relationships that are so helpful and effective. And they can get that at your website. And it sounds like you're also available for people to reach out to you for some guidance. Do you also offer coaching?

Yes, that too. Thank you for helping me with what I offer. Yes, I do. I offer coaching to individuals and couples. And the way I work is, you know, when people come in, I talk to you both probably as individuals, and then as a couple. Sometimes just one person wants to come in, and sometimes you're recovering from a relationship that you are wanting to get out of. I do offer free initial consultations, if somebody would like to connect through my website, or give me a call, either way. I'm passionate about what I do, and we tend to dive deep. So, I am available for that as well. Thank you, Jessica.

Yes. And we got to talk a little bit before we started recording and your background, in-depth psychology and just the wealth of richness that you have to go deep with people. I really want to just underscore that. Tell us about your book because you wrote a book about infidelity and helping people.

Well, I'm in the process of writing it. It's not finished yet. My initial book is called the Infidelity Cure. The first one's written for men who have had affairs who are interested in reconnecting with their wives. And there's a section for the wives/partners. And there's a section for the spouse or the partner in that as well. In the next book, I'm going to reverse it and it's going to be for women who've had affairs. And then hopefully, I get to the third one and that's for people who have been drawn into an affair with somebody who is not available.

So, first one is for men because I've had so many men show up at my office to start the process of affair recovery. It's just been an enlightening experience for me and a deep dive into what are the underpinnings of this and how can we recover from it.

And this book really is a tool for men specifically, although there's a chapter and a section that is targeted towards their partner and really giving some of this insight that you've gleaned from your experience and your research and all the things that you've done to really package this and to help people at greater scales. Is that right?

Thank you so much. You've encapsulated it very well, yes.

Okay. Great. Well, wonderful. I will make sure to have all of these links to your book, to your contact page, and to your website. I hope that people will also get your free guide and reach out to you if they're looking for more support in this topic. Jeanne, thank you for spending your valuable time with us today.

And Jessica, thank you so much. Again, I so enjoyed connecting with you and brainstorming with you for your audience. It's been a really nice connection. Thank you.

Signing Off

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