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On today's episode of The Empowered Relationship Podcast, you'll hear Dr. Betty Martin really inviting the practice of slowing down and exploring not only our partner’s needs, but equally as importantly, our own needs. We discuss how her work as a sex educator and her exploration of somatic-based therapy inspired her to create her Wheel of Consent framework, which illustrates that when we're sexual, we move between four different zones. 

Dr. Betty will step us through the four zones of the wheel and gives examples to illustrate the practice of taking turns giving and receiving pleasure. She shares her insights into negotiating boundaries and sets the stage for having a productive conversation about your needs with your partner. Dr. Betty also explores why we start your experience outside the bedroom fully clothed rather than with genital touch and describes where to find additional resources that will help us open the gateway to emotional and spiritual fluency.

Dr. Betty Martin has been working with people professionally for over 40 years. She was a Chiropractor for 30 years and upon retiring from that practice, became a certified Surrogate Partner, Sacred Intimate, and Somatic Sex Educator. Her explorations in somatic-based therapy and practices informed her creation of the framework, The Wheel of Consent®.

In this Episode 

08:16 The framework of the Wheel of Consent and what got Dr. Betty interested in creating it

13:45 The practice of taking turns and respecting boundaries and how that helps you understand your own physical needs 

16:22 Why it’s so uncommon for couples to be connected into different roles and often forget to be explicit about wanting to make love

18:00 Tips on using the Wheel of Consent and laying the groundwork for giving your partner the gift of touch with a full heart 

20:58 Unlike your regular sexual play, you should take time to negotiate what you need and incorporate pauses to ensure everyone is comfortable 

22:16 This is a practice that you keep coming back to it over and over, but you start on the couch and don't include genital touch until you played it 20 or 30 times, or you’ll get right back into the same habits that produced the same results before 

24:06 Why saying no allows you to say yes

33:41 Dr. Betty explains things that see people typically work through that gives them some insight into current challenges 

37:25 The model allows people to come in contact with their guilt and fear of rejection — Dr. Betty describes what she recommends for people as they confront their somatic pain

39:29 What you expect as an outcome of fully engaging with the Wheel of Consent process

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Make sure you are explicit with your partner about your needs – including when you’d like to make love
• Be aware of your own needs. Often we are so mindful of the other that we lose touch with ourselves and lose the ability to self-validate, which can take a toll on our sexual connection and dampens the erotic tension
• Work with the Wheel of Consent to access the ways of engaging that are in the beginning stages and break through initial hurdles that we often confront when trying to initiate sex with our significant other
• Be open to working through the process with an open mind

Mentioned

Dr. Betty Martin Website 

Dr. Betty Martin Instagram

The Wheel of Consent Instagram

Body Electric School

The 3-Minute Game by Harry Faddis

The Art of Receiving and Giving: The Wheel of Consent by Dr. Betty Martin, with Robyn Dalzen *Amazon Link

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About Today's Show

Betty, thank you for joining us today.

Oh, you are so welcome. Thanks for having me.

I am really thrilled to be able to share with listeners what you've created in helping people understand as you've developed the framework of the wheel of consent. I would love for you to just talk about for people that maybe aren't familiar what this is, and then we can go into a little bit about what got you interested in creating this.

Sure. Actually, it probably works better the other way around, if that's okay.

Perfect.

I was a chiropractor for many years. In my mid-40s, I took some workshops in sexuality. It just broke the lid on my little white picket fence sexuality. I dove in there for a number of years exploring with a few cohorts. We did a lot of ritual, and erotic massage, and dance and movement, and touch, and breath. We really explored what is this thing called Eros. What is my body capable of? How does it work? What is it like when I get into a highly aroused state? That's not about hooking up with someone. We took erotism out of the context of sex means you're doing this thing with this person, but really explored what's it like in my body.

Anyway, it was a fabulous number of years. During those years, I took a workshop. It was the Body Electric School. We learned a game. It's called the three-minute game. It was developed by a man named Harry Faddis. The three-minute game is a game for two people. You ask each other these two questions, and then you do whatever you negotiate.

The two questions that you ask each other are; What do you want me to do to you for three minutes? Well, yeah. I can think of some fun things. And what do you want to do to me for three minutes?

Then, during that time, I realized that I was interested in bringing these experiences to clients. So, I closed my chiropractic office, moved into the city, and opened up a new studio doing sex coaching. I called it Sacred Intimate Work, which was coined by somebody else. The name is not unique. I started taking people through experiences that were sometimes erotic to help them learn about themselves. It was a lot of fun. Completely fascinating, as you can imagine.

I took off the shelf and dusted it off and brought it in to play with clients because I thought, “Well, it's going to be a nice transition from the talking history taking goal setting part of the session into the touching part. It'll give me a sense of how they're comfortable with touch and how they're not. It’s sort of a place to start. It did give me that and very much more.

Later, I narrowed the questions to fit more what I was teaching. Now I use it this way: How do you want me to touch you for three minutes? How do you want to touch me for three minutes? And of course, you can extend the time. It can be five, 20. Two hours, three hours, whatever you want. But it's helpful to start with a short time.

One thing I noticed was that when two people ask those two questions, that creates four rounds of the game. And so, I'm doing what you want or I'm doing what I want. It's quite a difference. Difference is significant. You're doing what you want, or you're doing what I want. So, the who is doing combines with who it's for, or who wants it in four ways. And if you draw a circle and a line up and down and a line across to represent who it's for and who's doing, then you end up with four quadrants. And each of those is a combination of who is doing and who it's for. You can find that on my website. You can download it at BettyMartin.org.

That's kind of cool to see. “Oh, look. It fits into this little diagram and it's really spiffy.” However, that's not really the important part. The important part is that each of those combinations or each quadrant has something different to teach you and is a very different experience and will challenge you in different ways, and will turn you on in different ways, and will feed your heart in different ways. And so, what I gradually noticed was that all four of them are unique and really wonderful. And like I said, they feed us in different ways. And so, then I began really diving in and playing with each of them. That's where it got really rich. For example, the difference between doing what you asked me to and doing what I want to do with your permission and within your boundaries. That's a very different experience, and very rich, those differences.

It's either all about you, and I'm respecting my limits of course, or it's all about me, and you're respecting your limits. It's taking turns on who it's for. And, boy, there's nothing like taking turns to show you lots of things about yourself.

Most people think of sex or lovemaking as this place you enter into together ideally, and you kind of weave together and it's all mystical and wonderful. It's not necessarily like that. I think it's very often not like that. But as a practice in taking, receiving, and giving a part. For one thing, you find out what they are. You find out what it really is to receive a gift. And that cracks your heart right open. And you find out what it is to really give a gift. And that cracks your heart open in a different way. And that each of those are really important skills to have as an adult. They're not that common. It doesn't replace your play time when you're neither receiving nor giving. But as a practice, it opens up experiences that you will have no other way.

There are a few things that I'm experiencing as you're describing this. One of which is it just seems like such a beautiful framework to really expand and give permission for these different roles that perhaps we don't fully occupy because we're so aware of this shared space or the other. I just would love to know what you think about just that. It sounds like that's what I'm hearing. Is that right?

Yeah. It's a practice and taking it apart so when it's my turn, it is totally about me. I respect your boundaries, of course, but it's about me, baby. And when it's your turn, I put my desires on the shelf for this agreed upon time and I go with what you want. Again, honoring my own boundaries about it. Each turn is very different from the other one. That's where the aha come in, and the fun comes in, and just luscious experiences that are possible.

I'm just aware too that the three minutes, it's significant enough to be able to expand and give space too but also not so big that it feels too difficult to access. And also, what you said a moment ago about how uncommon it is for couples to be in this practice of being really connected to doing different roles. It's amazing to me. I think I heard a statistic out of the Gottman Institute that 70+ percent of partners aren't explicit about wanting to make love or just even initiating it.

Sure. Because it's awkward. It's embarrassing. It's vulnerable. It's always vulnerable to ask for what you want. Not because you're broken. It's just inherently vulnerable to ask for what you want because you could be laughed at, or shunned, or disappointed, or any number of things. So yeah, it's vulnerable.

Well, before we get into some of the meat of it, I am wondering. It sounds like you've referenced within boundaries and also that this guideline or this wheel is available on your website and all over the web. Can you give people some groundwork around how those boundaries are negotiated? And also, how one uses this wheel if they like, go to your website and they have these four questions, essentially. Is there anything you want to lay just as groundwork? I know, you have a whole book around this? But is there anything you want to say that kind of set the stage for the conversation?

Yeah, you can get it all on my website. I think the wheel works best as a practice. You set a container of time and attention. Okay, you know, let's take an hour and do this thing and experiment. Within that container, you are very strict with your communication and your questions, and nothing happens until you ask for it. So, there's no way to not ask.

There are pauses built in for you to consider. Is this a gift that I can give with a full heart? My partner has asked me to rub his back. Is this a gift that I can give a full heart? Take half a minute to just ponder that and notice. You might notice, “Yeah, I'm happy to do that.” Or you might notice, “I can do that but I need to move over this way so that doesn't hurt my back.” Or, “I can do it if you're lying down but not if you're sitting up.” Or, “I'm happy to do it with your shirt on but not with your shirt off.”

Whatever boundaries you want to set around that. And so, time to consider is built in. When someone says to you, how do you want me to touch you? It’s the same thing. You need a minute to figure it out because we don't often know. When I started asking this question to clients, the most common answer I got was, “I don't know. No one's ever asked me that.” Or, “I don't know. Do other people know?” Or, “I don't know. What do you suggest?” Or. “I have no idea where to start.”

But my experience is that there's something in there. There's something that would like to be touched. I mean, if you want to be touched at all. Awareness will bubble up into your brain if you just give it a little time.

That's an awkward moment because we think, “Oh, I'm supposed to know right away. I don't know right away. So, what's wrong with me?” There is nothing wrong with you. It just takes some time. Take a minute. Take a couple of minutes. A couple of minutes can feel like an eternity. But it's just a couple minutes. I've seen it take 45 minutes. Not a problem because we have all the time in the world for it.

And so, yeah. Noticing what you want can be a big part of it. And so, anyway, what I'm suggesting is that you play this game within a container that you have the agreement, okay, this is for an experiment and we're going to see what we find here that may be different than what we usually do. And so, you ask, you pause. You ask for what you want, you pause. You notice that that's a gift you can give with a full heart. You say no, you set a limit. You may have to negotiate how, who's sitting where, and what clothes they have on and stuff. Most of those things you're not likely to do in your regular sexual play but they're really important here.

So then, you play, play, play. And then, you close the container. And then you take what you have learned and take it back into your regular life. It will inform however it does learn whatever you learn, and then you come back the next week and something entirely new pops up. And then the next week, something entirely new pops up.

I've been playing this for 15-20 years. I still have new stuff pop up that I never thought of before. And new challenges will come up that you notice. New feelings will come up. New ideas of fun things to do will come up. You'll become aware of resistance that you didn't know you had. Or you become aware of desires you didn't know you had.

So, as a practice, that implies that you keep coming back to it over and over. And also, I recommend that you don't start with sexy parts. That you start clothe. You start on the couch. You don't include genital touch until you've played it 20 or 30 times. Because as soon as you include the genitals, everything you've learned flies out the window, and you get right back into the same old habit of doing the thing that produces the result. And that's not what we're going for.

I'm glad you said that, because I was listening to you and it sounds as though there's a real regard for the connection to what's authentic and having the smith to do that. That that gets us out of what we should do or what looks sexy, or what we think is expected of us. The performance and all that.

Yeah. All those things. Yeah.

It sounds like you're inviting people to be in the practice of this on a weekly basis. Or what's the recommendation?

Yeah, well, every day. I mean, what could be better than having a practice to ask your sweetie every night, how do you want me to touch you for five minutes? And just build that in. Doesn't that sound great? Or, how do you want to touch me for five minutes? Oh, yeah. I can think of some ways I'd like to touch you for my own enjoyment. So yeah, just whatever works for you. Some people get a babysitter every week. Some people, you know, once a month, they spent half a day. Whatever works for you.

And it sounds like you're saying there is permission to say no.

Absolutely. Absolutely.

Because I think we've all been in the place where we wanted to say no, but we didn't say no. We said yes because of all kinds of reasons. We don't want to spoil the mood, or we think we're supposed to, or there's something wrong with me if I'm not saying yes to this, or they're going to get mad at me if I don't say yes to this.

Unfortunately, there are times where you get hit or you get thrown out if you don't say yes. I don't know anybody, who as a two-year-old was praised and thanked for saying no. I'm not sure that ever happens but we learn really early to ignore ourselves and go along with things that we don't want.

For many people, it's kind of the only experience of touch they have. I think it's true for people of all genders but I think it's particularly endemic for women and people who are raised as girls. We think that touch is just this thing that happens to us and we're supposed to like it.

Oftentimes, we don't know that it's possible to be touched exactly the way we want. Because we just never had it. Because it was always what somebody thought was the right thing to do. And so, they did it and we thought, “Well, I guess that's the right thing.”

It's life changing. You’ll find out, “Oh, wait a minute. There is such a thing in the known universe as being touched the way I want? How does that work?

Right. And it's experiential. It's not intellectually. Its body, semantic, relational experience that can be so transformative. And before we go a little further, do you give guidance around how to access a true yes or a true no, or the bubbling up of what is desire and where people might be initially, I don't know or face value, or this like constriction. Can I say no? What do you tell people in kind of getting to know that inner true yes or true no or the authentic desire?

Well, you just said it. It's getting to know the inner. Because the yes or no, our experience of it kind of lives in our body. If you just take a moment right now, for example, and just say the word yes, and see what happens in your body. You might feel a change in your chest, or your belly, or maybe your breath changes, or your shoulder soften or whatever happens. Just notice that in your body.

And then, say no and see what you notice in your body. Maybe it's a tightening here or there. Or maybe it's a constriction or maybe it's you're holding your breath or whatever. Those are the signals that you can watch for when it's time to notice, which is really, it's always time to notice, but when you've been asked, “Will you scratch my back?” Then take those moments to check in with yourself. And wait for the inner “hell yes”. Just wait. It might not be there, in which case it's a no.

And very often we wait for the, “Oh, yeah. I guess so. I really should get over myself. I really should be okay with this. So, I'm going to make myself be okay with this.” That may be useful occasionally in life, but I don't think it's really useful in the bedroom. It has no place in the practice of the wheel. Wait for the “hell yes”. And if it's not a “hell yes”, it's a no. Or it's a yes with some limit. “Yes, I'd be happy to do that if I can turn around this way.” Or, “Yes, I'd be happy to do that for five minutes, not for 10 minutes.”

And you also said something, Betty, about exact. Exact, right? Which feels like it resonates with the hell yes. So, let's say I asked for my back to be scratched. And it's like, as I'm experiencing it, it might not be an exact hell yes. It sounds like there's so much permission, so much room, to be able to guide and modify and redirect.

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I may ask for my back scratched. And if I have some experience with it, I'll say and go really slowly, and firm, and deep because it might be that I want it light and feathery. That's also wonderful. But right now, I want to. So, you're starting to scratch my back and I might say, “Oh, can you go a little slower?” And you slow down? “Oh, yeah. Okay, slower still. Oh, yeah. Okay, now deeper. Oh, yeah. That's really good.” Because you can have it the way you want it for the most part. Yeah.

And you said something about just in general, what this is able to capture is so different. Is there anything you want to say about, I mean, you kind of already did, but is there anything you want to say about what this provides in the practice that's really different?

Well, I think it's very different from most people's sexual play. For one thing, slow down. And then, sex is not the end goal. For a lot of people, when they engage in sexual play, they're trying to get somewhere. They're trying to get sex with me. They're trying to get to orgasm. They're trying to insert something in some orifice somewhere that's the right orifice or something like that. What if you could slow down and enjoy the sensation that's already happening? Then you don't need to go anywhere because you're already there. It already feels great. So, why would you want to go anywhere else? Because it already feels great.

Yeah. I think that's one of the big differences. It just opens the playing field so that you can enjoy lots of different things that may or may not have anything to do with sex. And the taking turns, when you're first starting the game generally doesn't really have anything to do with sex. Although it might feel sexy, that's fine. But you're playing with or your experimenting with lots of different kinds of touch, lots of different body areas. You're just experimenting.

Eventually, you might want to bring sex into it. That's fine too. When you can take turns assisting each other's arousal, that's also pretty fun. And then, it's really vulnerable. Although, for some people, it's more vulnerable to be sexy. For some people, it's more vulnerable to be not sexy. So, it just depends where you are. It’s fine. But it can be quite vulnerable being assisted in your arousal by your partner, who may also be enjoying it. That's lovely, too. But when it's all about you, oh my gosh, that's going to push every button you got. So, yeah.

It sounds like such a deep profound knowing. Like, day to day. If it was a practice day to day or week to week and getting to know someone in that moment and what would be learned in that moment, but also just the range of your partner. And also, one knowing themselves, right? Do we even give permission to ourselves to really explore?

When you talked about sex often being such a result driven act, moving towards this forward thing, there's such a time pressure. It just feels like such a luxury to be like, “Oh, you will rub my feet or rub my head or whatever it is.” Like, just to relish. Yeah, and the learning. I mean, it's beautiful. And touch is such an important way of connecting that. I love this framework because it seems so accessible. It's like gamifying it in a way but not. It seems it is but it isn’t.

It's really simple. It's not always easy. Yeah.

So, let's turn towards that. You talked about this being vulnerable several times. You talked about it being difficult. What do you see that perhaps people typically work through or get confronted with that just some help around how as human beings we might have to work through some difficulties or challenges with this?

That's a good one. Probably the most difficult half of the wheel is receiving a gift for you. Whether I may be receiving the gift of you doing what I asked you to do, scratching my back or whatever. And that can be very vulnerable both because just being done to at all can feel challenging for some people. And in those cases, it's super important that you are in charge of exactly how you are touched. So, it stops when you want to stop. So, their hands goes where you want it to go and nowhere that you don't want it to go. It slows down when you say slow down so that you are in charge.

And that will likely bring up tears of relief. “Oh my gosh, this is possible.” And then, the tears come. Because we all carry difficult memories and feelings and sensations about our bodies and our skin. And of course, we do. I mean, that's just part of growing up. Some of us have horrific memories. It really varies. But it's natural that we all have at least some angsts about being touched. Are they going to do what I want? Are they going to try to do something I don't want? Blah-blah-blah-blah-blah.

When we are touched in exactly the way we want, all those old feelings, self-doubt, and fear, all those will tend to bubble up because now we're in this place that’s safe now so they come up. So that's one thing that's very common is that it can be hard for people to really experience touch that is for them because they keep thinking it's for the other person. Another one that's very difficult is the quadrant where you're doing what you want. And so, you're saying, “May I play with your feet?” “May I nibble your ear?” “May I feel up your butt?” May? It's a “May I” question.

And that is very often the most difficult one for people. Because now I'm confronted with, “Oh my gosh. Now, I have to admit that I want to fill you up.” “Oh, my gosh. That's vulnerable.” And then, that could bring all the shame and the guilt and all this stuff comes right up with it. And then, “Okay, my hand is on you but I can't really feel you because I'm so worried about what you're feeling, or I'm worried about how guilty I feel, or I just can't figure it out and it's just too disorienting.” That happens fairly often.

Learning to touch you for my pleasure can be very challenging. Yeah. So, it's mostly on the “it's for me” side that people struggle. And as you would expect, the guilt and the shame and all that stuff. Because we live in a culture that's really messed up when it comes to enjoyment.

I love what you described about the safety and just feeling how this model is built on that foundation, and what it provides for people to come in contact with. And then, as the guilt and the shame, fear of rejection, receiving, all of it. What do you recommend for people as they might confront some of this somatic pain?

Slow down. Take it a little bit at a time. If you were offered a two-hour full body erotic massage with warm oil, it might be a little too much. But three minutes of having your arm stroke exactly the way you want it, can be just enough of a bite that you can metabolize it. Overwhelming ourselves is never useful. And so, that's why I recommend to start with non-sexy body areas, start with your clothes on, start in the living room, start with three minutes, and see how that goes.

You will naturally expand it as you feel like it. But you could spend a year just doing three minutes with your clothes on and learn a lot and have a wonderful time. So, don't think that the idea is to get farther. It's not. The idea is to notice yourself more and more exclusively. That's the whole point. Yeah.

Wow. When you speak, it feels like I feel moved in the sense of the art. Words fail me. It's almost like there are no words, right? What can get cultivated in this space is so beautiful. So, I know we have this limited time and we're winding down. I'm curious if you want to speak to what you see that this does provide for people whether or not there's a story you want to share or whether or not with this practice and engaging in this what can get developed. Less about like giving something for people to like, “Oh, this is what I can expect as an outcome.” but more of just the process of engaging in this practice.

Well, it'll be full of surprises. That's what I can pretty confidently say. Because the thing of it is about those two questions and answering those two questions. They cover every possible dynamic of touch. Either I'm doing what you want, or you're doing what I want, or I'm doing what I want, or you're doing what you want. I forget if I said all those right, but anyway, it covers all the dynamics.

Wherever you have trouble, it's going to show up. Wherever you're confused about who it's for, wherever you're afraid of asking for too much, or afraid that what you want doesn't count, or not knowing how to say no, or not knowing how to take action for your own enjoyment, it's all going to show up, if you go through all four rounds.

That wasn't very encouraging, was it? It will surprise you. Someone will ask you how you want to touch them and you'll be surprised, “Oh, my gosh. I didn't know I had feelings about this.” Or, “Oh, my gosh. I didn't know I wanted to get my hands in your hair.” And so. there will be surprises pretty much every time.

Along the way, you will learn to respect your own desires and your partner's desires. And you'll learn that you are not responsible for meeting all of your partner's desires.

And then you’ll find that you can relax and be much more generous because you are respecting your own boundaries. And you’ll learn to notice the question of who is this for will kind of start to haunt you because you'll notice, “Wait a minute. I'm talking about this, that, the other. Is this for me or is this for you? Are you just putting up with me or is this something that's helpful for you? Or, you know, those kinds of questions will become much more clear.

How illuminating.

Yeah. You’ll think, “Oh, my gosh. Where have I been all these years?” And you have some fun, too.

No kidding. And I can see how this translates to love making, right? If we flex some of these muscles, right? It's such a gift to be able to show up in this much more clear way and also respond to our partner in a much more clear way. Yay. Well, I'm so in love with this. What are you up to? And how do people get in touch with what you're teaching and offering? I would love for people to know that.

Sure. Well, on my website, BettyMartin.org, there's a page with eight hours of free videos that take you through the whole thing. I just finished a book called The Art of Receiving and Giving: The Wheel of Consent, which you can see on the same website. You can also get a free chapter of it at WheelofConsentbook.com.

These days, I'm not seeing clients so much. I'm teaching other practitioners. My colleagues and I do that through the SchoolofConsent.org. We are training practitioners in how to use this with their clients. We train body workers, sex workers, therapists, coaches, teachers, physicians. If you're in the people helping business, this would be useful for you. We teach that online and around the world. And these days, I'm finding out that after writing the book, that promoting it is a full-time job, so that's what I was doing these days.

Understood. That would make a lot of sense. I know that there are practitioners that listen to the show, so hopefully, if someone's interested, they can incorporate this into their work. And for someone who's listening that wants to attend a workshop or find a practitioner, is there a way to find a practitioner on that website?

Oh, yes. Yeah, Schoolofconsent.org. We have trained a bunch of people to teach this in two- or three-day workshops. There's a list of those workshops happening all around the world and online on the calendar. There's a workshop for civilians, and then there's training for professionals. You might fit into either one of those.

There we go. I love it. So much to engage with understanding and practicing and trying this out. With your book and the videos on your website and then also potentially a workshop and working with a practitioner. Is there anything else you want to say before we sign off, Betty?

Thank you for spending that time.

You’re welcome.

Yes, it's been an honor. Thank you.

Yeah. Thanks for having me.

Signing Off

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