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On today's episode of The Empowered Relationship Podcast, Dr. Ian Kerner and I discuss what a ‘sex script’ is and why it can help couples achieve intimacy by rewriting our sex script. He shares his insights into why these sex scripts are not only based on physical behaviors and describes how he helps couples understand that psychological arousal begins with our minds.

We dive into the details of why Dr. Kerner has been a longtime advocate for a new paradigm of sexual pleasure for heterosexual couples, focused around clitoral stimulation rather than the previous procreative model of sex. Dr. Kerner explores why the core of the orgasm gap between men and women is down to the differences in how men and women experience the plateau phase in the process of sexual response. We also discuss how getting into a state of ‘neutral entrainment,’ when you’re relaxed and in the moment and feeling the erotic heat being generated, helps foster a sensual connection. 

Ian Kerner, Ph.D., LMFT, is the co-leader of the sex therapy program at the Institute for Contemporary Psychotherapy and contributes regularly on the topic of sex for CNN. He is the New York Times best-selling author of She Comes First (Harper Collins), which has been translated into more than a dozen languages, and he maintains a private practice in NYC dedicated to honoring the centrality of sexuality in his patients’ lives.

In this Episode 

07:32 How psychological arousal relates to sexual intimacy 

08:28 Why couples in long term relationships often develop a ‘sex script’ over time 

12:51 Recognition that psychological arousal is a key component of sexual satisfaction

14:06 Why anticipation is an integral part of psychological excitement and how tapping into our erotic imaginations and fantasies helps get us going

18:42 Reciprocity is elemental for our sense of bonding, particularly when we're talking about intimacy and the vulnerability around reaching that authentic sexual place 

26:06 The element of play and being able to express sexual fantasy in recreating your sexual script

32:37 How to move from the shallow end in these conversations about sexual fantasy and drift further in so that we don’t get fearful and anxious about the process of connecting sexually

35:57 Dr. Kerner’s tips to help someone safely explore to open up more capacity and let go of their sexual rigidity

37:44 Introducing the idea of sexual exploration without pressure

41:50 Shifting from intercourse to outercourse and creating a sex script that adds and rearranges the right elements for us as a couple

43:15 How to find out more about Dr. Ian Kerner and get ahold of his latest book So Tell Me About the Last Time You Had Sex: Laying Bare and Learning to Repair Our Love Lives

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Think honestly about the last time you had sex with your partner and how it felt for both of you.
• Understand your personal sex script and how to move from intercourse to outercourse. 
• Take the plunge and explore your erotic imagination with your partner and share the fantasies that arouse you psychologically.
•  Practice getting into a state of ‘neutral entrainment’ and deepen the sensual connection with your partner.

Mentioned

So Tell Me About the Last Time You Had Sex: Laying Bare and Learning to Repair Our Love Lives (*Amazon Link)

She Comes First: The Thinking Man's Guide to Pleasuring a Woman (*Amazon Link)

Connect with Dr. Ian Kerner

Website: iankerner.com

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LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About Today's Show

Ian, thank you for joining us today.

Jessica, it's always a pleasure.

It is. And we had you on the show a while back. I'll make sure to put that episode on today's show notes. And really, we talked then about just all the things that get in the way when people are approaching intimacy together, particularly performance anxieties for both men and women.

One of the things that you mentioned in that episode was perhaps arousal differences, where one person might be a little bit more aroused psychologically, where another person might have a different arousal process or preference.

I got so interested in that. I remember looking. I was like, “I can't find very much about it.” I reached out to you and you were like, “Well, that's part of what's in my next book.” And so, you since released that book. We're here to talk a little bit more about psychological arousal as it relates to sexual intimacy.

Great! Well, I can put it in the context of my book just to go big picture and then little picture. My new book is called So Tell Me About the Last Time You Had Sex. That's a question that I ask all of my patients, especially couples, after I've heard about sort of whatever problem they're coming in with.

The reason I ask that question, Jessica, is because by hearing a recent sexual event from beginning to end, it really allows me to see sex in action and where is the problem occurring. Is it at the beginning of sex? Is it in the middle or the end? Where do we need to start making changes?

I sort of call that “the sex script”. A sexual event has a beginning, middle, and an end and there's kind of a sex script. And for couples in long term relationships, the sex script tends to kind of be the same over time. So, if it's working, fantastic. It can work on and on and on. And if it's not, that can be a real bummer on and on and on.

I think the biggest area where I see problems with people’s sex scripts is really just kind of starting and getting going, kind of pivoting out of life and into a sexual space. And so, I think that there's two issues regarding sort of impasses and discrepancies. One would just be simply a desire discrepancy and not being in the same desire frameworks, you know, not wanting sex at the same time, or not being able to initiate in a way in which the other really can receive. That's what I would call sort of like, a desire problem.

And then, I guess that leads to an arousal problem because once two people have decided to be sexual, it doesn't mean that they're going to sort of stay in sync and get aroused together and sort of move through the process of sexual response together. Those two problems, sort of the desire and kind of the arousal kind of take-off kind of go hand in hand as a similar problem at the beginning of the sex script. That's where I think psychological arousal really comes in.

What do I mean by psychological arousal? Well, first, I mean something that's clearly not just physical arousal, because I think that for a lot of couples, what their sex script sort of depends on is just “Well, I'll kiss you this way. Or I'll touch you this way. Or we'll walk into the bedroom in this way.” And, you know, in any sex script, whether it's working or not, physical behaviors can start to just become just that, physical behaviors. They can start to kind of lose erotic life.

For example, we know that women can fantasize their way to orgasm. Not all women and nor is it an easy thing to do per se. But also with men, men can get hands free erections just from looking at something sexy or thinking about something sexy. So, that's all mind-based arousal. I guess the key is then, how do we take that mind-based arousal? How do we sort of package it and bottle it and share it together?

I love it! You're covering so much groundwork for us in really naming that in your experience in your practice, when you really ask experientially what's happening since the last time you had sex. And those sex scripts that really unpack the beginning, middle, and the end. And what you're seeing is a lot of times those initiating moments of really getting into connection can be problematic for people, whether or not it's a desire. I mean, imagining even just stress and the pace of life, right? Just even carving out space for really being present and being embodied.

And then, what you're saying even just the arousal, and so much of the physical contact gets a lot of attention. How do you want me to touch you, how we're kissing? And then, when you're talking particularly around long-term relationship, that that can lose its erotic sensitivity, if you will, because it's maybe not infused with the same level of intention. Perhaps doesn't have that same intentionality because our focus was perhaps maybe forward in the script. We're on a track and we're moving somewhere. And so, the recognition and just even naming for people that the psychological arousal is a component and can be even a key component for some individuals more than others. Is that right?

Yeah, that's right. When I'm working with couples, everyone sort of agrees. Who doesn't want more psychological arousal? I think it's a big problem in our culture with why there's so much infidelity, because in the beginning of our relationships, there is a lot of psychological arousals just from each other. But as we move along, we don't have ways of continuing to create it. So, I think some of us go searching for it outside of our relationship.

I don't think any of us disagree that psychological arousal is important. I think it's just a question of how to tap into it. I have some ideas, and they really begin outside of the bedroom and work their way in.

Okay, awesome. I want to get your insight on that and just to also give people examples. When you talk about psychological arousal, the way I'm hearing it is perhaps anticipation. Or even in the beginner's mind of not knowing, like, if I touch you this way, what's going to happen? Meaning, it's like this exploration where we can get pretty assumptive with a long-term partner, even if maybe they have changed in a day or a week or a year.

Yes! It's all about the psychological excitement, the space in between our bodies. It's also tapping our erotic imaginations and our fantasies, and, you know, some of the stories playing out in our heads that really get us going.

You mentioned kind of touching and feeling that connection. I think that's an area that a lot of couples really need help with. It’s what I sort of call “the erotic thread” or the space in between sexual event.

So many of us just don't create space in our lives for any kind of sexuality to emerge. And if it does, it often feels as an invitation to have sex. It feels sort of coupled with something a little heavier or bigger. So, I really encourage couples to just find those ways of pivoting in and out of sexual moments when you feel a little turned on.

It's great if somebody in the relationship is in that more spontaneous desire framework where they're more prone to have a sexual thought or see their partner and think about sex. Well, that's a great opportunity to bring that energy to your partner because we all want to feel desired. I mean, who doesn't want to feel desired? The question is, how do you bring that energy? What's the bigger frame for that energy? And how does the person on the other end receive it? Because that's just as hard. That requires sort of, “Okay. I need to mindfully switch out of whatever I was doing and received this and be in this moment for 10 seconds or 20 seconds or a minute.” I think that that erotic space is important. And it can look a lot of ways. I mean, for some couples it's a growth or grab, or it's a comment, or a look, or sharing an idea of something that you're interested in or looking forward to. And then the other pieces, it has to come from a place of sexual authenticity.

Oh, my gosh. I am loving everything you're saying because there's so much depth and nuance. I just want to name, if I can, the space that you're inviting for people to interact and engage with a little bit more within themselves with that authenticity, and also to be able to expand perhaps with their partner. And that when we don't have the space for it, and also when we add those assumptions that sometimes it gets collapsed with like, oh, we're going to make love or we're going to have sex or there's like an agenda of some sort. And that gets kind of very collapsed versus this extended time that there's perhaps something blossoming and emerging and percolating that can feel magnetic and erotic that has its real importance that we maybe don't give a real life for. Is that what I'm hearing?

Yeah, exactly.

It's huge. And then also our own baggage around expressing, right? Whether or not it's messaging and shame.

Yeah! So often, I will have couples come in, let's just say we're talking about a heterosexual couple, maybe the female partner will say, “I really just want to be desired more than anything.” Male partner might say, “I want to be desired too.” But then you have to be able to receive it, right? If you're going to reject somebody when they express their desire, even if it's coming at the wrong time, like, “Why are you doing this now? I'm about to go on a business call.” “Well, you look super-hot and sexy.” But all it takes is one or two little rejections, and then you're not actually getting the thing that you said you wanted, which is to be desired. So, if that's what you want and it's what I hear so often, you also have to be willing to receive it.

So key because that reciprocity, right, the responding is so elemental, not only for our sense of bonding, but when we're talking about intimacy and the vulnerability around really reaching in that authentic sexual place. It's huge.

It really is. And I think so many of us that feel like our sex lives are challenged or, you know, I also talk to couples and one partner might say, “We never have sex.” And the other partner will be like, “What are you talking about? We did it three days ago. Or, two days ago we had sex. How can you say we never have sex?” And what that partner who's complaining is often expressing is, it just doesn't feel like we're in a sexual relationship. Maybe we had sex but it just doesn't feel like the relationship is sexually alive.

Right. And there's like this threading of throughout interactions, this sexuality that's palpable. Even as you're talking in and just even recognizing culturally that it's so, in some ways, hypersexualized with the imagery that we get, and then it's also very hidden. I know this isn't a new thing. But it almost feels as though when you talk about the pace of life that so many things are really known, right? We want to eat healthy. Perhaps we want to exercise. We have to sleep. We have our jobs. Perhaps we have children and our domestic life. Does sexuality get that same attention and same priority of like a big rock in one's life like really explicitly. It's almost like it was supposed to happen in the bedroom in the dark. So, yes. Okay. So, for people listening, I'm wondering if you can give any pointers. You're probably are not going to be able to do this fully justice, but creating space, reciprocity, and being able to respond even if it means I have an appointment that I'm going to but that can be responsive or reciprocal in some way that doesn't fully just ignore or reject. Let's start there because I know we wanted to get to the sexual arousal but I know we kind of got off on a tangent here.

Well, I mean, couples who have come in want spontaneity. Sometimes couples come in and they feel like they can't access that spontaneity. But if you are cultivating that reciprocity in that feedback loop, if you are allowing your erotic selves to emerge, then you'll find that it's easier to express desire, or you may be feeling it more organically.

I think, again, people's lives kind of become dehydrated of that erotic charge. It really becomes up to somebody to either cognitively initiate. Like, do you want to have sex? Or to really rely on one partner who may just be very responsive to sexual cues. So, I think it's first and foremost about getting it in the air.

Even people who don't experience spontaneous desire who need to warm up and percolate. Well, that warming, the air can be warm. The air that you're always breathing can be warmed up. And so, then you have more access. So, I think that that was what you're asking. I mean, there are ways. I mean, I think what we also need to touch on is the power of fantasy, or the power of the taboo, the power of erotic imagination, right? Because when we're self-pleasuring or when we're thinking about something that might really turn us on, there's usually a heightened quality to it. Even if it's the sex we are normally having, there's still some kind of heightening that's happening, or some kind of taboos going on.

Yes. Yes. And for people that you see and work with, or just for listeners that might be out of touch, it's still within them. I feel like everybody has access and is wired up like you're talking about this authenticity, but perhaps we're not in connection with. For people that struggle with feeling like they've lost touch or gotten out of system with giving that space?

I mean, unfortunately, we're brought up to share a lot with each other. I mean, in some ways, we're trained very well to go into relationships and couple hood in terms of collaborating, but unfortunately, not in the area of sex. We haven't been tutored. We haven't had really open and transparent and authentic and honest experiences.

We sort of arrive in our adult sexuality really having to kind of catch up or make up for some lost time. I don't mean experientially. I mean, just in terms of talking and communicating, finding language. So that said, most of us aren't going to come right out and say, “Well, let's roleplay.” Meanwhile, when you were four years old, you did it all the time. When you were five years old, you played make believe without a problem, but okay, we lost that capacity.

I often just try and get couples comfortable with something that they can sort of do right next to each other, like reading some erotic literature out loud or listening to a podcast together, a sexy podcast, or watching some porn or something, some ethical porn together. I mean, I think that there are ways of sort of getting that fantasy material going, where you don't have to risk yourself. And what if you want to risk a little bit of yourself?

There are ways of sort of stepping into the shallow end a little bit, you know. You can go find some old photos of yourself or the two of you and kind of start to remember some things about your sex life or some peak sexual experiences that you may have had. You can tell your partner you had a really sexy dream about them. And even if you didn't, you can just to sort of say you did and blame your unconscious and come up with something that's really sexy.

Sometimes I come across a childhood game that can be adapted to sex. Two truths and a lie, which I'm going to tell you three fantasies, which two are the true ones and which one is the lie. There are lots of ways to step into that shallow end.

I love that. It sounds like there's an element of play. I mean, yes, when you're saying getting into the shallow end, but even being able to utilize other people's fantasy, whether or not it's through porn. I like your phrase of ethical porn, and erotica, and perhaps a sexy podcast. These are people that are really comfortable in expressing their fantasy and maybe being able to play. Do you feel like there's an element of play in being able to express sexual fantasy?

Sure. I mean, I think you have to embrace the spirit of play. I mean, that's where you have to really be open to different experiences of sex. I mean, there's so many paths to pleasure. We potentially have so many different types of sexual experiences. I mean, many of us in long term relationships, I would say we're really in a kind of the relational experience of sex. So, at its best it's passionate, connected, lovemaking. You know, the two of us as one. At worst, it's just stultified. But that's sort of a relational view. I think that there's also recreational sex. Like, why can't we just have fun and be playful and be adventurous? I tell so many of my patients lately, just find the lightness. Just find the lightness to be playful. Things are heavy right now. People are experiencing a lot of heaviness. Especially when they come in to see me. They're often in heavy places. But, find some lightness.

Yeah. I'm wondering. Do you have resources that you point people towards if they're new to exploring sexy podcasts or erotica or ethical porn? Or do you just help people find what resonates?

I used to sort of put together a list but one thing that's great about just our current cultural moment is there's such a renaissance and so many aspects of sexuality. Certainly, with sex toys but also with literary sexual erotica, podcast, ethical porn. There's so much out there that I feel like you can start to Google it. The are really quality magazines that are doing sort of roundups. Just like you can open up the New York Times and see like, what to watch. I trust the times and so I'm going to be curious. I mean, go to your trusted brands. There's probably something you can resonate with there.

You might have to go to men's health or women's health or something. I don't know if you can go to USA Today for recommendations on ethical porn but the list that I would create is such a drop in the bucket. And sometimes I will create a list especially if one partner or both partners are afraid of being judged. Like, “I'm going to show you my taste. How do I know that's going to be emotionally safe?” Sometimes if I'm making the choices for them, it can be helpful.

Gotcha. Yeah, no kidding. That makes perfect sense. This isn't too revealing of something that I like, or that might be criticized or judged. Okay. I love all the things you're saying. And I know we wanted to hear a little bit more about psychological arousal and how you help people with this because perhaps one person is a little bit more, I don't know if you believe this, but perhaps one person's a little bit more aroused through visual or through the physical or the tactical, just even sensual touching and where perhaps another partner is much more psychologically aroused. And so, how people can negotiate those?

Sure. I mean, I think we all have the potential to be both psychological and sexually aroused. I mean, I think that those are all very important pathways. It's just that the physical and the central pathways are more developed. But I'm certainly not saying, don't rely on physical arousal anymore.

I have a patient who loves massage. He's a gay male, and he loves giving and receiving massages. In his relationship, they really decided to commit to the art of erotic massage. And ultimately, they moved into a little bit more of an open relationship. And even knowing your erotic template or your arousal framework is really turned on by massage and sensual touch, well, that starts to introduce a lot of psychological components to it.

I guess what I'm just saying is this is so much more legible. We can do things that our partners love, and our partners can do things that we love. We can share turn offs and they don't always have to be at the same volume of being turned on but there's so much elasticity and flexibility.

Lovely. Yes, I love that you're just acknowledging how human this is. We're all wired up for it and we can resonate with it. Earlier in the show you were talking about the things that you offer people in the way of psychological arousal. Do you remember what you were going to say around that?

I think we've been covering it, Jessica. I try and get couples to have conversations. I mean, the conversations are really interesting too. I mean, you can go watch some ethical porn together and have fascinating conversations, both about why you're turned on or not turned on about porn, what your assumptions around porn were, what erotic themes are contained in the scenes that you picked. There are so many great conversations to be had.

My goal is to just normalize, make it positive, and not throw couples into the deep end. Because I think especially when it comes to fantasies, and we share, it can be confusing. Are we talking about something you really want to do? Wow! Do I want to do that? Am I intimidated by that? Does that mean you're not enjoying the sex you're having because you have this fantasy? It just opens up so many anxious questions that are worth exploring. And so, I try to kind of put people in the shallow end and have these conversations and kind of just like, I don't know, like somebody on a little float on a pool, just kind of slowly let them drift towards the middle.

So important because I think when we get a little overwhelmed or get even fearful or anxious, that's hooking a whole different part of our nervous system that's going to probably be counterproductive in this connecting.

I think a lot of people sometimes think they don't have fantasies or don't know their fantasies. Even the sex that you're having or the sex that you want to have is a fantasy and has erotic meaning. I mean all the time somebody said like around oral sex. Well, he just wants to receive and doesn't get. Or she wants to receive or whatever it is. And it just feels like, oh, we're just talking about oral sex. No, we might be talking about more. We might be talking about feelings of love, feelings of power, feelings of connection that come from a specific sexual behavior. So, fantasy is everywhere. This stuff is all over the place.

Yes. I like the reframe of just really looking at how much just even our thought process is connected to the fantasy. As we're talking, I'm wondering if you see this or what you might say about people that might find it uncomfortable to feel the arousal without taking action. It's almost like there's a relief. We were talking about that collapse of being able to kind of, oh, we're having sex and we're going to try to reach orgasm or whatever the goal is, versus extending and tolerating some of this arousal.

I have this couple in mind and he really likes to play and want to, perhaps do some of the things you're talking about, and she's like, “No, I don't like teasing, and I don't like anything.” And so, I'm wondering. Do you find that it can be difficult for people to feel their arousal?

100%! But I don't think it's because they're not feeling it. It's sort of what you're describing. There is a psychological rigidity. People come in and they're just like, “Oh, I only like intercourse. I don't like this. I don't like that. I'm not turned on by that.”

I mean, if we had that attitude throughout life when it came to going to a restaurant or going to see a movie, if we already knew everything about ourselves, I could clearly name all that. It'd be very hard to evolve or grow. So, I don't take people too seriously when they say, “I only like this.” I'm not going to tell them I don't take them too seriously. And there are so many paths to pleasure that I certainly would never ask someone to do something that they're really, you know, turned off by. But I'm also going to challenge a lot, you know, because again, rigid thinking is the enemy of bodily arousal.

No kidding. Is there anything that you can help us with and perhaps how you help someone safely explore to open up more capacity when they might be so rigid?

Yeah. I think it comes down to exercises that are outside of the purpose of sex and orgasm. I often recommend giver-receiver exercises. I mean, I guess you can call them erotic massage. I sometimes think of it a little more as like, a painter with a palette of colors and a partner who can be sort of a living, breathing canvas. What kind of painting can you make together?

But in general, you can imagine for the giver, it really allows them to explore and to be curious and to follow their curiosity and to not have to think about creating pleasure or generating orgasm, or having erections or being lubricated, whatever it is that you're preoccupied with. For the receiver, it does necessitate sort of dropping into your sexual body and allowing yourself to experience.

We do live in a culture where everything is so sped up and so fast. So, I think there is an art to learning how to slow down. Including after sex! That's part of slowing down too – staying in that experience.

No kidding. No kidding. Okay, so it sounds like just helping people without the pressures or the preoccupation to be able to engage in a way of exploring. How would you introduce that?

I would say, “Have you ever done taking turns giving and receiving? Have you ever been totally in the role of the giver or totally in the role of the receiver?” The answer might be sometimes, or not recently, or not at all. And I'll say, “Well, are you open to a little bit of sex homework? What do you want to do? Do you want to stay above the waist, above the neck, below the waist, on top? How do you want to set up the environment?” I mean, it's very co-constructed. Who wants to be the give first? Who wants to be the receiver? Well, that's always interesting too.

So, those are all, again, really interesting questions that I'll just introduce in the frame of some kind of homework. It's not about having sex that a couple can do together. In my book, and not to just push the book because it's not my intention though, I do try to really structure the book like you're moving through a sex script and through the various aspects of a sex script from that initial turning on to creating arousal to get into a peak of arousal to thinking about orgasms, whether they happen at all or simultaneously or one after the other to the moments after sex to the erotic thread in between sex. I try and think about all of that in the book and to give homework assignments that I think are relevant to each phase.

Great! I like it. And just the overall arc of the book, what was your hope for people to get out of the book?

The idea of thinking about what is your sex script. Is it reinforcing a problem? Is it creating pleasure? What is your sex life look in action? It's a simple way of getting in because you may have a historical issue, you may have trauma, you may have some kind of erotic conflict, you may have grown up in a sex negative home. All of that is great material to be explored. And any of it that's really relevant is going to manifest in a sexual experience, right? So, I don't need to know everything in the world about your sexual history. I need to understand what's getting in the way of you becoming aroused.

And possibly making really visible. I imagine what maybe even is unconscious, right? Or subconscious that these are my tendencies or habits.

Totally. So, I think that was the hope to give people a simple way of relieving, especially for couples. I mean, couples who have great sex lives don't end up buying sex books. It's usually people have some kind of problems so giving couples or individuals a clear way into working on a problem and getting on the other side of it and having realistic expectations.

Yes, and being able to have that guidance that the nature of the content is so personal for a lot of people. And to be able to have your book to walk them through, right? You know the roadmap. This is your expertise. And so, being able to assist and guide and then provide these exercises is so incredibly helpful. Is there one exercise or thing that you get a lot of feedback around?

I think I get a lot of positive feedback around that first sort of next to each other psychological experience of just starting to introduce that language into the relationship. I get a lot of positive feedback around just taking sex off the table sometimes and shifting from intercourse to outer course and creating a sex script that has more elements or more components and that are arranged the way you want them to be arranged.

An outer course. I mean, I would love to hear how you define that or see that.

Well, I mean, I guess intercourse if you're a heterosexual couple would be penis and vagina. If you're a gay male couple would be penis and anus. I guess that's sort of how I would describe intercourse, roughly. And so, outer course is sort of everything outside of that. It's oral sex, manual stimulation, playing with a sex toy, kissing, hugging. But it's more than just behaviors, it's getting outside of cultural sex scripts that really overshadow us like heterosexual couples are really focused on intercourse. It's just the truth. Whereas the heterosexual couple that isn't in some ways defining sex using intercourse as a benchmark. And gay men also, there tends to be more flexibility around outer course but they can also start to get into these roles around who's going to top and who's going to bottom. I find that sort of just queer couples and people who are trans or people who really both are undominated by a narrative but also have to figure it out for themselves are often, you know, the most creative about creating their sex scripts.

This is so powerful. Thank you.

Oh, you're very welcome.

How do people get a hold of your book?

Well, I would say go to your favorite indie bookstore, whether it's in person or online. Google it or look it up there, So Tell Me About the Last Time You Had Sex. Just make sure it's an indie bookstore that's getting your dollars because they're the ones in our libraries that are keeping reading alive.

Yes, thank you Ian. Is there anything else you're wanting to point people towards as far as what you're offering?

No. I mean, I always try and keep my website updated with sort of what I'm up to and where I may be speaking or doing something interesting.

Nice. Nice. I know you're in New York City. If people are local, you have a thriving private practice.

I do. Yeah, telehealth rules are tightening up. We’re emerging from COVID. So, you know, I do have to see people who have some kind of New York basis, even if they're not there right at the moment.

Lovely. Is there anything else you want to share before we transition out around psychological arousal or anything we've discussed?

No, just stay sex positive. It hasn't been the best time to be sex positive. You might have lost that in your life a little bit but it's there.

Yes, thank you. And thank you for being the voice and being able to really assist people in this area.

Thank you, Jessica. I really appreciate the conversation.

Signing Off

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