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On today's episode of The Empowered Relationship Podcast, we are going through a laser coaching session. I speak to Vanessa and support her to refocus regarding her connection with her partner. One of the things that she is challenged with is getting stuck in the logical, analytical space where she weighs the pros and the cons in examining her relationship. Although this can be helpful occasionally, it can also get us in a holding pattern, where we go back and forth and don't get clear on the right path to take. In this laser coaching session with Vanessa, I help her access her emotions and recognize the parts of her relationship where she feels discontent and pain.

When we have a void in our lives it can lead to a holding pattern in a relationship, but equally when we overanalyze our feeling it often keeps us from really being vulnerable and accessing the emotional deeper longing and discontent. One of the aspects that I'm intentionally trying to focus on in my coaching capacity is to help people access parts in themselves that they often don't slow down enough to connect with. We want to find the space to access the parts of ourselves that we might deny, repress or ignore so that we can explore them.

In this Episode 

04:50 How we can work together with our partner to resolve the differences in the relationship

07:07 Vanessa describes why she feels she and her boyfriend are in a holding pattern

08:53 We discuss Vanessa's internal list of pros and cons of her relationship and she shares the big-ticket items that she has discontent around

12:25 Lack of a depth of connection where Vanessa and her partner feel together, and why she feels like she can’t currently lean on him

16:03 Why keeping busy masks issues and can prevent us from discussing significant issues in our relationships

18:44 The problem of feeling lonely in your relationship and Vanessa’s reflections on how to resolve the issue

22:43 We discuss why planning for the future is a problem in Vanessa’s relationship and why she is stuck in the analytic phase

26:05 I connect with the pain that Vanessa is feeling that is prompting her to question her relationship

27:00 Why it can be so hard to get clear when we're trying to figure our relationship out from an intellectual place

29:53 We don't get enough support or emphasis around how much this means to us on a nervous system level on a human survival level, to feel that responsiveness from our partner, to feel that engagement, to feel their availability

32:56 Finding someone who aligns with the things that are important to her is what Vanessa values in a relationship

42:58 Why I would strongly encourage working with the principles around Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) when you are feeling at a standstill in a relationship

50:39 The importance of getting outside our heads when evaluating our relationships

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Trust your gut — if something isn’t working, then reflect on how to do something to progress your situation
• Understand that over-analyzing keeps us from going into vulnerable places and prevent us from connecting with what is painful in your relationship
• Talking to a professional can support us in feeling better equipped to negotiate and navigate long term intimacy
• Have conversations that help cultivate long-lasting intimacy with your significant other

Mentioned

ERP 273: How To Handle The Concern Of Vulnerability Not Working In Relationship

ERP 262: How Do I Know When My Relationship Has Reached An End

ERP 112: What Makes Being Vulnerable So Hard?

ERP 114: How To Develop The Strength Of Vulnerability

ERP 115: How To Develop The Strength Of Vulnerability – Part Two

ICEEFT Find A Therapist

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

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Email: [email protected]

About Today's Show

Hi! Thank you for joining the Empowered Relationship Podcast. I'm your host, Dr. Jessica Higgins, licensed psychologist and relationship coach.

Today’s episode, #289: How to get out of a holding pattern in a relationship.

If you would like access to today's show notes, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com. Click on podcast. In the top navigation bar, you'll see that podcast and you can click there and you'll have access to all of the episodes. And again, today's episode is #289.

Today's episode is essentially a laser coaching session. If I continue to do these, which I am happy to, and I also know it's a huge risk for someone to open up and reveal some of their tender spots. I'm very aware of this. I think I'm being pretty gentle, more gentle than I normally would, given the context of this.

I think as I learn in being able to offer a laser coaching session on a podcast episode, I will go in a little bit more and challenge people a little bit more. So, I just want you to recognize that there is a gentleness to how I'm approaching Vanessa in our conversation, and also continuing to help her refocus.

Honestly, people are at different phases and different places in their relationship. One of the things that she is really challenged with is getting out of logic, where she describes herself as being very analytical and really weighing the pros and the cons. And while this can be helpful, and an extremely important exercise, it can also get us in a holding pattern, where we go back and forth, and we don't get clear.

What I'm trying to do in a very gentle way is help her access her emotion and the parts that she feels discontent or feel some level of pain around. That can be hard to turn towards. There's vulnerability in that. I really recognize as I really validate her that we all have ways that we get through difficult circumstances. We have tendencies, protective strategies.

One of the things that she really talks about is being busy. And even to our call, we talked a few minutes before we started recording because she was transitioning from another appointment and was a little late and just talking about her pace. I think she had just recently travelled and so there was a lot going on in her life.

And so, one of the things that I'm really intentionally trying to focus on with people in general, in any coaching capacity is to help them access parts in themselves that perhaps they don't slow down enough to connect with, or give space to these parts that perhaps we might deny, or repress, or ignore, so that we can explore it and I can offer guidance and getting to some next steps.

It's not my job as much as Vanessa would want me to tell her what to do, what choice to make. That wouldn't be helpful. I want her to come to her own answers. I have a lot to offer in the way of what I see. I'm going to talk about this at the end of the coaching session a little bit more of my thoughts that perhaps don't come through in this coaching session.

Before we get started, I want to just take a moment. Just take a pause with you. And perhaps just giving yourself an opportunity to turn inwards. And whatever you're doing and whatever is going on in your life, just feel internally. Perhaps even just taking a couple deep breaths.

I want to invite you to even get clear on something that you're contemplating or are even interested in or curious about in the way of a relationship and to just give acknowledgement to that. I also want to name the intention of Empowered Relationship Podcast, and that is that these episodes are really intended to support you in feeling more supported, better equipped to negotiate and navigate long term intimacy.

Knowing that there will be ups and downs in life and perhaps in relationships, we might experience some intensity or even triggers. It's how we deal with those ups and downs, those triggers, intensities that really determine our sense of success, our sense of being able to work together in partnership. Meaning, you and your significant other get closer, understand each other more deeply, learn how to work together to resolve the difference, or even a conflict. And through that process, feel more secure, feel as though you have each other's back, and feel more solid together. This takes time. It takes practice. It takes investment and effort.

These conversations on the Empowered Relationship Podcast are intended to support you along this journey of cultivating long lasting intimacy with your significant other.

Okay, let's get started in today's laser coaching session. And on an aside, if you're interested in getting laser coaching, on a podcast episode, you can learn more on my website, DrJessicaHiggins.com. That's doctor with a DR. Click on contact in the top navigation bar, and then you'll have a little bit more information around how to get set up to do one of these laser coaching sessions.

Vanessa, I appreciate just your willingness and your courage to join me in this laser coaching session that we're going to do. We're going to just start with a particular area of question or concern that you would like support in.

Thank you for having me. I'm excited to even be here chatting with you. I've listened to several of your podcasts. I think that they're phenomenal. I love their setup. I love how you coach, and I think it's great. So, thank you for having me.

Long story short, I've been in a relationship for 10 years. He's an awesome guy. I mean, awesome, awesome, gorgeous, kind, smart, respectful. I mean, he's really a great package. His pro list is a million miles long. The con list is short but they're kind of big ones.

And so, I think I'm just really struggling. While he's an amazing guy and he checks a lot of boxes, something in my gut says, “But he's not your forever.” And things that were okay in my world 10 years ago, and okay for me then are not as okay now that I'm a little bit older. I think I have a different kind of priority set.

I think it's basically kind of working through that and trying to figure out just where to go. It's basically, you know, do you end a relationship with a great guy, or do you stay just because he's a great guy?

Thank you for that. There's just so much resource, so much strength in your connection, your bond with your boyfriend, and that you're recognizing that while the list of pros are long, you're recognizing there's a few really big ticket items in the con section that mean a lot to you and that you're having discontent around.

Exactly.

Okay. And are you open to sharing what that is, those two cons?

Sure. A big one is communication. We kind of bond over having fun. He's positive, high energy, and just a joy to be around. So, we had a really good time together. But our conversations don't really go much deeper than surface level, and they never really have.

We talk about sports. We talk about, “How was your day?”, “How was my day?”, “Okay. Great.” And that's about it. He doesn't share a whole lot. It's not that he's like trying to hide things. It just doesn't even occur to him that I would want to know that or that he would share that or that that's kind of how you create a deeper bond. So, communication is a big-ticket item.

This might be a little TMI, but our sex drives are definitely at a different level. And so, that can be a bit taxing at times when you're always the one who's pursuing. And then, it's like, okay, well, you know. And again, I know it just happens to be kind of a, he's a morning guy, I'm a night girl. He works outdoors. He's tired in the evening. So, it's not like I'm having some mania around, “Is there something wrong with me?” No, it's not really that.

And also, when it comes to the future, like he's very much in the now kind of guy. He doesn't really think about the past. He doesn't think about the future. He's kind of like a leaf that floats on the river. He's a coaster. He’s had the same job since he was 18. He went to college, got a degree. No desire to use it. No desire to do anything more than what he's doing now.

When we talk about things like retirement or the future, or do you want to still be doing the same grind when you're 70 or 75? Because, you know. “Oh, I don't think about that. I don't think about when I'm 70.” And so, when are you going to think about retirement? At your retirement already?

I think kind of some of the adulting things, I do all of the adulting. That gets a little exhausting. I'm an outgoing personality, a strong personality. I'm kind of a rock for a lot of people. At the end of my day, I want somebody that I can come home to and who's my rock, who I can say, “Here. Can you just take the wheel for a minute?” Or, you know, “Listen to all of this.”

He's not that person for me. In the past, “Oh, well, you've already probably told 10 friends about it. Why do you need to tell me?” “Because you are important to me and I want to share these parts of my life with you. I'm sorry if it bores you or whatever.”

I feel like we're great friends and we have a great time together, but kind of some of those deeper level things, we don't connect and we never really have. So, it's not like I should be in some grand shock. But I think, like I said, 10 years ago, you're not really thinking about marriage and kids and all of those things with urgency.

We recently started fertility and I think that's really what kind of put the ticking time bomb in my head of, “Wow, you want to pay and sign up to have this be your forever. Are you sure?” I think that really got the urgency ball rolling of, “You can't keep coasting just because you have a good time together. You've got to really start thinking on a bigger level.” And clearly, you think about that a bit. But when it's really happening, it's like, “Tick, tick, tick. Here we go.”

All right. So, I would love to chime in and just slow down a little bit. It sounds like your bigger concerns are really having a depth of connection where you feel together, and you feel like you can turn to him, lean on him, and also that the ways in which you guys are communicating that there's a depth of understanding and also a shared vision. But when it comes to really planning and working together, moving forward, having a vision, I should really struggle with doing that with him.

That is exactly right. Yes.

Okay. Okay. And that also shows up in finances, and perhaps even sex and lovemaking that, you know, it is a difficult ask when we're in a longer-term relationship for the hormones, or the energy levels, or the arousal to just sync up. We have different, like you said, morning preference or evening preference or energy levels. And so, to just think that it happens to us, it's a difficult thing to ask to sustain in a long-term relationship. So, it sounds like it's showing up in multiple areas.

Let me ask you. Have you broached this with him? What does it sound like when you bring this up with him? Can you walk me through, if I was a fly on the wall, what happens there?

He doesn't like conflict. Again, if it's not broken, don't fix it. He's that kind of guy and kind of a bit of a bury-your-head-in-the-sand. So, if I'm upset but I don't bring it out, he's not going to seek it out or try to start that dialogue. He'll just hope it will be over.

I brought things up over the years here and there. I remember a specific incident, probably, I don't know, three or four years ago, where he had made a comment about, “Oh, well, now that I got this bonus, I can buy a diamond.” And I said, “For what?” “For you!” And I said, “Well, we've got some major things we need to talk about before anybody thinks about rings.”

If he said that to me I would have said, “Great. Do you want to talk now or do you want to wait until you're done with work?” There would be no waiting. We had been somewhere and so we had like a four- or five-hour road trip home a couple days later, at which point you would think he would say, “Now is a great time to talk. What's going on?”

Nothing. Two months go by and finally I'm like, “Do you remember me saying that? Did that not raise at least a question mark in your mind?” If you thought we were on a certain path, and clearly, I'm on a different page, then would it not at least spark some kind of “huh” in your mind?

It was just more of a, well, I didn't really want to talk about it or hear it kind of thing. That's really his main concern. Another concern of mine is that he never really wanted to get married. He's perfectly fine being boyfriend and girlfriend. Probably for the rest of time. It'd be perfectly fine living in the apartment that we live in for the rest of time.

Okay. I'm going to just, again, like, hover with you right here if I can. So, it sounds like you'll bring it up. Help me a little bit more about the moves that you make. Do you bring it up, and then wait for him to join you or to respond to you? When he avoids, what happens for you?

Generally, I'm pretty direct and I will bring it up. That was just a specific incident. The avoidance technique. And that's the thing. I know if I said to him, for example, “Well, if you don't marry me, I'm leaving.” He'd be like, “Okay. I'll marry you.” But that's not what I want.

So, in general, when we talk, I'll bring something up. I'm direct. I just say, “Hey, look. This is what I'm thinking. This is what I'm feeling right now.” We've had a lot of these talks recently. I can tell that he doesn't quite know how to respond.

With the communication piece, for example. And I said, this is important to me. And clearly, we're not connecting in that way. And he said, “Yeah, it's just communication isn't that important to me.” And he's not trying to be a jerk or anything like that, it's legitimately having that kind of connection is not important to him. He doesn't need that. He likes just coasting. It's easy.

I'm an easy girlfriend to have. I like sports. I get along with all his friends. I'm not jealous. I’m like, do your thing. I trust him. It's fine. And so, I think it's easy. I don't think it's because he's so in love with me. I think it's an easy and convenient and fun relationship. And that's where my real struggle is, is that I'm not unhappy.

So, you're saying I have a lot of ability to assert and bring up and be direct. And what I experienced from him is a very kind of neutral, passive, kind of coasting. You're not really getting from him his wants, his desires, his visions, or what is important to him. It's like he’ll mold to whatever you might bring. But you're saying, “I'm not sure that that's really what I'm looking for. I'm looking for somebody to meet me.” Is that what I'm hearing?

Correct. Yes. I think he doesn't think about it. He's not thinking 10 steps ahead. He's thinking about, “What do I have to do tomorrow?” Like that's it.

Yeah. What's that like for you? Because when I imagine bringing up something that's really important, and feeling as though my significant other, not so much that I'm hearing, take it or leave it but it's just very malleable, right? It's like I am having a difficult time telling where he is or where he's not, right? I almost get a sensation of feeling a little lonely when I kind of try on myself and kind of get into what you're describing. Can you help me with what it's like when you don't get a lot from him?

We don't have a ton of conversation so it's not like this constant feeling of, “I'm not validated. Nobody cares. Nobody is listening.” I do think he cares. And when I'm talking to him, I can tell he genuinely cares. But it's almost like he doesn't quite have the capacity to meet me, you know, to be that mirror.

“Well, tell me what I can do. What can I do?” It's difficult to articulate that. I don't know. I have friendships with people that it's just like that. Men, women, you know what I mean, where that conversation piece or that connection piece, it's just natural. When you genuinely care and are interested in someone, it flows. And not that he's not, but that's difficult.

Sometimes it can be difficult to bring up with him because we don't fight. We get along extremely well, and we have a good time. So, it's very difficult to be like, “Hey, we had another awesome fun week together. By the way, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.” You know, it's not like we have these explosive fights or I'm miserable. So, it's like I'm just wallowing in this. It's not. And the thought of not having him is also devastating.

Tell me about when you feel this concern and you really question if you're open to it, because it sounds like you have to be the main driver.

Definitely. Yeah. It's tough. It does weigh on me a lot. I feel like I'm constantly thinking about it. Because, again, it's a kind of, “Okay. We spent 10 years here. Are you going to do this for another five? You've been talking about the same thing for five years. We really think it's going to be different.”

So, processing that is difficult. And I think about doing it because I know that if we stay together or we break up, it will be my choice. If things happen, or retirement, or money, or whatever, it's going to be on me. And so, it's a lot of pressure and a bit of a heavy weight. So, yeah. Did that answer your question? Sorry.

Yeah. Yeah. And when you look at having children, right, and the domestic parenting, and what that might look like, at least at this juncture, based on the information you have based on the past, it's likely to predict that you would be the main driver around parenting and the domestic rearing of the children and all of those things.

I also want to say that, stereotypically, women, when we look at breakups, are really weighing how much they've invested in the relationship, and they're more likely to stay because of what they've invested. It's almost like trying to weigh the cost benefits. And there's so much invested that it's like, “What does that mean if I walk away?” Like, “What does that mean to all of my investment? Not only for the value of that but also the loss of what I was hoping for.”

And I guess I just want to ask. I know I'm rooting around and you might not have a clear sense, and I know it could be even vulnerable. When I hear you talk about, it has to be my decision, or you talk about feeling exhausted, being the main driver, or not feeling him initiate or really reciprocate or come back to these conversations that mean so much, I can feel in myself that I would feel disappointed. I would feel frustrated at times.

I know you're saying we don't argue. I'm just like, what's that like for you to have these desires and things that matter to you? And it sounds like you are incredibly patient and you are really flexible and you are really willing to be focusing on the positive and all the good. And at some point, when do the other things matter? And what happens to those parts that aren't getting mad? Are you open to sharing?

I keep myself very busy. When we previously chatted, I work, I volunteer, I do a hundred million things. And so, I often find it very easy to avoid it. I mean if I'm being completely honest, it's easy to avoid.

We live well together. We're great roommates. He carries his weight around the house, you know what I mean. It's a very amicable situation. And so, it's easy to be like, “I'll deal with it later.” But then it's like, how long is later? And that's, I think, really where I'm at right now as I feel like I'm not doing myself any favors, I'm not doing him any favors by staying.

I'm not saying I don't think I'd meet somebody. Of course, that's not a concern. I think there are plenty of people in the world so it's not like, “Oh, I'll never meet anyone. I'm not going.” It's not that. It's just more of a but will it be at least this good of quality because there isn't anything terribly wrong. It's an enjoyable relationship.

So, then you go searching for something and you maybe don't find someone for five or 10 years, or you think, oh, I found somebody but then they're a drug addict or who knows. You know what I mean? There's just a lot of what ifs. It's time sensitive in my world.

For example, do I have a child with someone who I know will be a great dad and will be a good partner but who I'm going to later in life I'll be the disciplinarian, I'll be those things, but I would still at least have a good and supportive partner who would love me and would love the children. Or, do I roll the dice and maybe never have kids by breaking up and going? And that's really, I think, the hardest decision there is, you know, I'm not 25.

Right. And I want to say as much as many of us would hope to have a crystal ball, right, and do like, what happens if I go this route? What if I do that? Paint a picture for that, right? And that we're at a crossroads and there are some really important choices to be made and so much of life is these decisions.

It sounds like you're saying one of the ways that I protect myself is I'm busy and I have so many things going on which could be distracting or help me avoid. You're also telling me part of this is tricky because when I work with people, I imagine almost a pie, like a basic math percentage, and what we're often doing is we're taking a percentage of that pie. It could be a very small percentage and we're magnifying it so please just know that I trust there's so much goodness.

I know we're just met. This is our first-time meeting. And so, to magnify something isn't going to be representative. It's not going to do it justice. And if we're going to zone in to magnify it to really look at maybe the aspects that are hard to give attention to.

Can you help me? I'm still wanting to connect a little bit more with the pain that you feel or maybe the not happy that you feel because you're not even talking about pain. I use the word discontent. Can you help me with that? Because it's enough for you to really be questioning the relationship.

Yeah. Your intention or trying to connect is the same struggle I'm having. It's difficult to articulate because it's more about a feeling. You know what I mean? I'm logical. I'm very methodical. I like to think things through. I'm not making any impulsive decisions. And so, when trying to educate myself just around this it's very difficult to find stuff because it's often a toxic relationship.

If you're here, you gotta get out there. But it's not toxic. So that's, I think, the part that’s confusing. Yeah, the confusion or the “pain”. It's like, “Am I just being greedy? Am I just you know, like, ‘Oh, this is good but I want more.’”

Instead of perhaps approaching it around what outside can give me guidance and what insight or understanding or principles could apply to what I'm feeling. Because it's hard, right? Sometimes our stories are not unique and original, but sometimes the experience of it and the unique expression is very unique, so it's hard to feel that resonance. And it is hard to kind of get clear sometimes when we're trying to figure it out from an intellectual place.

I'm a big fan of the gut, heart, head, you know. If people are spiritual, like having that. So, I like the idea of referencing all of those. But for today, if I can ask you, tell me about when you feel the stir or the rattle, emotionally, that feeling that you're talking about that lets you know, this might not be my forever. Help me with that. Less about even being able to articulate it. Do you have any, like a sensation in your body? What's happening when you feel that?

I will think sometimes about, oh, getting married to him, and it doesn't excite me. It's just a, okay, like, it would just be another step. And then, that makes me then feel sad because why would I feel that way? Why don't I want that after all these years when I clearly don't want him to go away, or not be part of my life? But it's more about in what capacity, you know.

And so, it brings about a lot of confusion and sadness. You do feel a little bit lonely because he doesn't feel the same. It's not like he's like, “Yeah. There is just some discord or a little discontent here, right?” I think he's happy as a clam. And then, that makes me even more sad because it's like, if this is your “perfect situation” and it's clearly not mine, we're not working towards the same goal because he's already had his goal.

I don't know if this happens sometimes for people. I don't know if this is what I'm hearing and what you're saying too. It's like, in some ways we can match or adopt our partner’s style. And it sounds like one of the things that I'm hearing as potentially a protective strategy is like, I want to feel excited, I want to feel my heart, I want to feel close and connected in a deeper way and passionate. And when I don't feel that or we've been around the block enough to know that I'm not going to get that, then like, a way to protect is like, okay, well, I'll avoid too.

Yeah. I mean, I guess you could say that. The thing is, again, because it's not a bad relationship, it's not like it's at the forefront of your mind every day. And oftentimes, we do all get busy. And you know, you're just living to get to the next day. It's such a monumental item. It's like, “Oh, it's just so much easier to just push it off another week or another month.

Well, as I'm listening to you, I feel sadness because I think even culturally, this is where we don't get enough support or emphasis around how much this means to us on a nervous system level, on a human survival level, to feel that responsiveness from our partner, to feel that engagement, to feel their availability and when you're questioning capacity, right?

And when I even just imagine what it would be like for me and wanting to feel more depth or wanting to feel more passion, it's like when our partner doesn't respond or that they turn away and not that there's toxicity in that or not even that there's mal intent in that but it's just like I almost get this imagery of like I want to play. And it's like this excitement of like, “Let's go here.” And they're just like, “Hmm.” Or like, there's just not a lot to it.

I almost get this let down like my shoulders drop. I could even feel rejected. I'm not getting that necessarily from you. But if I take that a few steps forward around, I keep reaching out to you or keep inviting a next step with you that could be exciting and what we can create together and I don't feel you pick up that thread or field the ball with me like we play catch.

I feel sad and I feel like I want to play with you in life. I mean when you are really questioning, I almost get this saying around a life well lived. These things matter greatly around feeling bonded. I mean, this is where it can be like the number one thing. Like you're saying, a big-ticket item.

Definitely.

What are you feeling right now as I'm kind of reflecting this back and making it like, this is normal?

It feels good. I mean, it feels nice to be validated because I think that when you don't live it, oftentimes people, “Oh, but he's such a great guy.” “Oh, you're so lucky.” And yes, I am. I know that but that doesn't also mean that that is the end all be all forever. He lacks follow through in a lot of things. Like, he'll start something but then he doesn't finish it. I feel like that might be the case with our relationship in a way.

I've told him, these are the things I need, these are the things I'm missing. He'll kind of try for a little bit but I'm just, this sounds horrible, but I'm just waiting for the other shoe to drop. You know what I mean? Until it's like, “Okay. I don't feel like she's questioning the relationship again. I can go back to my usual.”

Right. I'm on my best behavior.

Right. It's not because he's intentionally making that act. He really wants to but, is he capable?

Right. And a little bit of fire that gets lit, right? It brings our attention or our focus very much to that alarm bell, right. And then when things settle, it's like, we might go back into a little bit more of our comfort zone.

I think, for me, it's very nice to not feel like, “Oh, you're just being greedy.” or, you know, nobody's perfect. That's what so many people say. “Nobody's perfect, Vanessa.” Well, I know that. I'm not looking for perfection. I'm looking for someone who aligns a little more closely with the things that are extremely important to me in communication and feeling supported, and that I'm seen for the things that I value in myself. That's important.

Supported and seen by the person that matters the most to you.

Right. And when you don't feel like that's happening or that that's the case, it's disappointing. But again, they're such a good person that it's like, I know you're not intentionally doing that and we have 95% of the things that are awesome, but there's a big 5%. And so, to hear you tell me these are important things, these are things that shouldn't be overlooked or taken lightly, you know, it makes me feel better that maybe I'm not having some unrealistic expectation or a fantasy life or some prince riding on a white horse. It's not that.

Right. And even as I'm listening to you, I can see how with the busyness of life and the fast pace that even as you're talking, you'll say, “I don't want to be greedy.” or “I don't want to be expecting too much.” or all of these reasons that perhaps caught off feeling what feels difficult. Right?

Because when we feel pain, like let's just even use the physical analogy. Let's say a pain in my knee. I could take Advil. I could take something. Or, I could mask it or have other techniques around how I deal with the pain. I could walk in a different way. But I'm not necessarily looking at what's going on there. What's that pain about?

And so, my concern would be for the both of you that if his tendency is to avoid or to not necessarily be super leading as far as what the direction that he wants to go. It almost feels like I don't want to be too demanding, I don't want to be too needy, I really enjoy being the gal that can watch football and be super fun and can flow and not be this high maintenance person, and that you're very self-sufficient and you're very intelligent and you're beautiful. You're all these things that allow you to be super capable and functioning at such a high level. And then at the same time, what happens to those deeper places on the inside? Right?

If we're saying, “Oh, I don't want to be too demanding.” or “I don't want to rock the boat.” or “He didn't pick it up, so, I don't know. We'll see what happens.” That in a way keeps you both in this place of “we don't go there”.

I know you say your direct and that you do bring it up so I don't want to dismiss that. But if I'm looking at patterns, even when I'm hearing you talk, it's like you'll say it's important but then the next thing you'll say is, “Oh, but I don't want to be unrealistic. The grass is always greener.” It's like it's very easy question.

Sure. Well, I think that's the internal struggle that I have with all of those things. I'm just kind of trying to verbalize that at this point. The back and forth that happens in my head, it's a confusing place.

It is a confusing place. Hear me that part of that reflection is less of judgement. It's more of just like noticing. I have my tendencies, and we all have our tendencies. And just noticing those tendencies, perhaps, keep us in this loop, or keep us in a similar experience.

Even the way you're describing your partner and his capacity or his approach. Like, would he be interested in getting support around this dance? It's not your whole life. It's not your whole relationship. It's this particular dance where you're looking for more connection. I guess, on a side note, I don't even know, does he know how much this bothers you? Or how much of a struggle is that it's big enough that you would contemplate the relationship? You kind of gave him some sign by saying there's some things we need to talk about before we get engaged.

That was years ago, but we've recently had more conversations around that. Very recently. The last couple of months. Because I asked him the marriage question. People are like, “Why aren't you guys married yet?” And I said, “And you're always super awkward.” I guess that. He said, “Well, I don't know what I'm supposed to say. Sometimes I feel like you want to get married. Sometimes I don't. Sometimes I feel like you want to have kids. Sometimes I don't.”

And I'm thinking, “Well, if that's what you were thinking, why don't you ask me? That's a big deal. I would ask.” And I said, “Well, I 100% want kids. I always have. That's not ever wavered. And I am open to marriage.” I said, “The thing I question or the thing I doubt is whether I want those things with you.” He says, “Oh, yeah, you've told me that before.” But then later he said, “I never heard you say I didn't know with you.” So, I'm like, “There was no missing it unless you weren't listening like you already did.”

Based on my work, I would suggest, or I would expect that there's, again, reasons why it's difficult for him to talk about his inside parts around what he thinks, what he feels, and what he wants. So, it possibly is easier. I mean, that's some indication that he is looking at you and he's tracking you. People do this with sex even. This might be part of the lack of feeling he initiated. Right?

There are so many people that will watch their partner. Do they seem ready? Do they seem interested? Do they seem available? Like, nothing's ever communicated, but there's so much tracking. And so, it sounds like there's confusion in him on what he's reading to you on the outside. Sometimes it feels like you love me and want to be with me and other times, I don't know, or it doesn't seem like it.

And so, there's a lot that despite the years that you guys have had together and this is one of your chief complaints is we're not necessarily having these deeper conversations that allow us to know these deeper feelings and experiences.

What would it be like for you guys to get some support to have somebody walk you and support you in having this experience together where you can start looking at these deeper layers? And I hear you that he often is living his life around like, “I don't want to go there.” But if it was safe and he felt supported, and that helps you guys get some guidance around how to engage in this, what would that be like?

I think he would be open to that. We did try some, like counselling, if you will, years back. We didn't stay long enough to make it really helpful. They had suggestions of, “Oh, well, maybe if you have a bigger ticket item you’d like to discuss, make an appointment with him. Tell him I'd like to talk about this, you know, maybe tomorrow at five.”

To me, I'm like, “No, thank you.” If I come home and there's something I want to talk about, I want to talk about it now. And I want a partner who is like, “Hey, if it's important to you, it's important to me. Let's do this.”

Well, it's difficult to give homework if you're both having difficulty approaching it. And not so much you, but maybe your boyfriend, right? Helping you both have the experience of it live. So, you get it in your nervous system and you get it in your bones. You're looking at each other's face, and you're having the experience so that you actually know that potentially you could replicate it at some point to be able to really integrate it into your lives, right.

I do think that there are some clinicians that will give homework. It's a coaching. If I go to somebody, let's say, I play beach volleyball but for whatever reason golf came up in my mind. So, if I go to a coach to learn how to play golf, and then they spend time talking to me, and then they give me some homework around what to do before the next session, I'm like, I want you to show me. I want to do it with you. I can't teach myself. I could have done that on my own. Right?

And even particularly when you talk about your boyfriend, my sense is there's a lot there that he just doesn't have a lot of language for. I've referenced this on the podcast before. There's research that really shows men and women have the same capacity for empathy. Just women stereotypically, when we look at gender on binary, men and women, that the women stereotypically have more capacity, more language than men.

And again, parents typically talk to their daughters about emotions. Girls growing up talk to each other about relationships, and feelings, and all of those things. And so, guys sometimes don't get that playing time. They feel things but they don't always have the language. Or they've known scary things around relationship conflict. That could be a way that he's protecting the both of you is like, I've just haven't known things to go well. So, it's safer.

That’s very true. Yeah, that's definitely true. All of those things.

Okay. So, I would strongly encourage working specifically with the model or the principles around EFT, emotionally focused therapy. That is precisely doing the very thing that you're saying, “I really want to feel with him.” which is, I want him to know me on a deeper level. I want to feel seen and understood. And I also want to know him. I want to feel our bond together and get support around cultivating that space. That would support you.

I mean, on so many levels you're saying he's a great person. There's so much goodness. I forgot the word you use. It would be devastating to think about leaving him. And yet, this feels like an arena that you've made your best attempts to explore. And there are people that are trained to be able to assist in helping people get through the blocks, the protections, to have this experience together.

I would be open to that. I think he would be too. I just sometimes wonder that even if we did that, you know, it would be more of he's going through the motions for me but not because he truly has that desire to connect.

And so, to me, it would feel potentially a bit disingenuous if we did that. You know what I mean? That, “Okay. We're doing this here, but once we leave these people, then is it going to go back to him just, again, not caring. It's not that but just kind of that I'm perfectly fine just existing in my happy world. I don't like things that don't make me happy. So, I'm going to avoid them.

And so, this would be something that even out of the gate to bring and have like a deeper reveal around, I feel concerned that you would do this for me but that you don't have interest in being in this space with me. Is there even an emotion when I say that?

Yeah. Oh, absolutely. I think exactly what it is, and that he would do it because he wouldn't want me to go. He would be, I know devastated, if we split. But it would again, be doing it for me not because he also has this desire and just doesn't know how to do it. And that in and of itself is a bit sad.

And that could be what you're needing to know, right? My sense is in the attempts that you've made up until now, that could be overwhelming and scary for him. And if he, like you said, hasn't had great experiences in the past or has had pain or trauma in his background around conflict, having some safety and some real slowing down, and the guidance around what happens for you when you hear her invite you or reach to you in these deeper ways.

Or even hearing her talk about her fear that you don't want this. And the sadness that comes up with that around how much you mean to her. And how much your connection means to her. For me, that would be really valuable information around what's happening for him. Because right now as we're talking, I don't know.

That makes the two of us.

Of course, you have to honor you. And at some point, you're saying, is this enough? This matters greatly to me if you only connect, feeling bonded and feeling seen and understood and having a shared vision together that we're both excited about.

And so, what happens for him? That would be important to know. And you guys could do the avoid, distract, like busy, avoid, like in touch on it. And then, you know, even he's what you're telling me, even he makes his little attempts. Maybe it is super subtle but he does give you input around like, “I am paying attention to you. I don't know.” And look, if you're going back and forth, he could likely be getting mixed messages. Right?

True. But I'm always the one to bring it up. I wish that if he has these, why has it been potentially years that he's been thinking this and doesn't ask because he's perfectly fine. He's content being content. That is the name of the game. He's content. And to me, it's like I want all of those things you said. The deeper bond, the connection, the value than being seen and all of those things.

Yes. So, you're saying that even as we're talking, I can feel you engaging more around how come you haven’t? If you've had thoughts, what's made that difficult? What's gotten in the way or what's blocked you from initiating a conversation, right? Like I feel you even as we're talking, engaging more. Right? This stuff really matters.

Yes.

Okay. So, I guess I will just say I really want to invite you, and I can give you a link so we could look for someone in your area. And if you're interested in working with me, we could talk about that. This will be really helpful in understanding and getting the information that you currently don't have. Because look, part of when we go back and forth is we're referencing the data and the information we have. And if we don't feel like we have enough information, it's likely we're going to continue to go back and forth. Right? And so, if there is an opportunity, which I believe there is, to get more information around what's happening for him, what's blocking this or interfering with this type of connection, that would be good to know.

I agree.

Okay. All right. Well then, is there anything else that you want to say as we kind of bring ourselves into close here for today?

I think we covered a lot. I feel like you really, in the brief moment and all of my rambling, I've really kind of articulated the things that I'm feeling, my worries, my fears. I feel like you have a very good grasp on it. So, I am very interested in potentially working more with you beyond this point, but we can talk about that later. I feel like you really extracted a lot of good information from my ramblings. So, thank you.

Well, I know you're not alone. I know that many people, myself included, I remember some of my very first podcasts were about a relationship that I really had a lot of questions around. This is really difficult. And again, how much it means. When we look at our life and creating a family and really committing, there's so much here. And this is a real person that you've shared your life with for 10 years, and that's not to be discredited. So, I really appreciate what is on the table and the immensity of it.

Thank you. Yes.

I want to take an opportunity to just unpack a few main points that I want to highlight. I also just want to reiterate that this was the first time that I had met Vanessa. There's a sense of almost protectiveness that they have around people and wanting them to feel safe in being able to share in a larger audience, on a podcast episode, some of their relational struggle.

I just applaud Vanessa's courage. I honor her bravery. I think that as I continue to do these, I will do my best to really dig in a little bit more so that as a listener, you're feeling that I'm really assisting in these like zoning hotspots and kind of extrapolating that so that we can have some learning.

That being said, I am very committed to meeting people with where they're at. And I have no idea where this was going to go. It does feel really appropriate for Vanessa and her significant other to get some support, to really understand what's happening in their dynamic. What he sees in her on her outside parts and what she sees in him, which we got a lot more information around today. And what's going on for him in his inside parts. And so, having some support to really unpack that. And if he doesn't want to do that, that's good information.

My sense is if there was safety, and there was somebody that could assist in helping them negotiate that and really access that, that there could be a lot more reveal around their relational dynamics, because as we talked more, and I understood a little bit more, it seems as though as much as Vanessa is willing to address and be direct and even pursue, there is some avoiding and being busy that distracts her.

So again, that leads to this holding pattern because when we avoid a void, nothing really gets done. So, that can be really difficult. And then, we fast forward and it's been however many years. And that might not have been what we had set out to do. However, when we are in the short term, it's easy to get busy. It's easy to avoid or distract. I do think it's really helpful for them to get support to look at that.

It is notable to me that, when I look at dynamics, the fact that she had said earlier in the episode when she wanted to tell him things, and he said, “Well, you probably already talked to like 10 people by now.” Like, I don't know what was in that but one potential would be, “You don't really need me.” Or maybe some intimidation around, “I'm not sure of how to hold a space for you, or what's going to really work for you.”

So again, I think it is really helpful to get a better sense rather than being in the head and imagining and trying to run the math. Right? Because again, I do think when we analyze or try to think things through, it keeps us from really being vulnerable in accessing the emotional deeper longing and discontent. That can be a protective strategy. So, that can also get in the way of really showing up for those parts that might be painful or might hurt. But in the long run, we look at the long game. It's viably what matters most. I appreciate that she really was able to access that, that how much it means to her and how validating it felt to really get support around this meaning something to her.

At one point she mentioned a gut feeling. And again, when we get into the head we can try to analyze. What does that mean? Is that, “This isn't the right person.” Or, what does that mean? I really want to encourage that these somatic sensations alert us, give us information to work with. And one of the ways that you could perceive this gut feeling is what is currently happening. It doesn't work. It doesn't feel good. It's not okay. And I want to do something about it. And that's that bodily sensation that this feels off to me.

And so, for me, it's less predictive of, is this the right person, but more really revealing of like this current way that we're relating isn’t in alignment with me, and that would be the thing that I would want her to really lead with and honor, and then get to explore.

I really appreciate her tapping that it feels lonely, it feels disappointing, it feels sad, and it feels scary. And so, part of getting support is really holding space for those parts that hurt. And then from there, likely, like when we look at those critical defensive patterns in a relationship, like I don't know if she criticizes her boyfriend, I don't know if he feels criticized even when she's not being critical but pointing to something. Right?

Again, I mentioned, maybe he feels intimidated, or maybe that feels scary, or maybe that feels threatening. We don't know. If he's distracted by what that feels like in her approach, he's not seeing the hurt, the sad, the scared, the lonely parts. And that's typically what moves people into connection, right? She talked about wanting to feel seen and heard deeply, and that connection.

And so, if you would like access to today's show notes, you can visit DrJessicaHiggins.com. Click on podcast in the top navigation bar and there you'll see today's episode. Again, today's episode is #289: How to get unstuck from a holding pattern in a relationship.

I also want to reference there might be a couple other podcasts that will really go nicely with this topic, which is Should I Stay or Should I Go. I think I did a two-part series on that. I don't know if that was the exact title. And then also, What Makes It Difficult to Be Vulnerable, what gets in the way and those blocks.

And also, make sure to put that EFT, emotionally focused therapy, and the link to find a therapist so that could also be a resource.

Until next time. I hope you take great care.

Signing Off

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