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Understanding why love is not enough in an empowered relationship can be a challenge. So in this episode, Dr. Stan Tatkin helps us recognize some of the most common biological and human factors that take us off track when creating intentionality in a relationship. Having a scientific framework that allows us to understand why we need more than love helps us create a shared vision for our relationships.

By unpacking common causes of relationship challenges, we can learn how to commit fully to a loving partnership and ensure it remains a beautiful and fulfilling experience.

Stan Tatkin, PsyD, MFT, is a clinician, author, researcher, PACT developer, and co-founder of the PACT Institute. Dr. Tatkin is an assistant clinical professor at UCLA, David Geffen School of Medicine. He maintains a private practice in Southern California and leads PACT programs in the US and internationally. He is the author of We Do, Wired for Love, Your Brain on Love, Relationship RX, Wired for Dating, and co-author of Love and War in Intimate Relationships.

In this Episode 

09:35 Why the basic human being is not built for long term relationships

12:25 Going passively into a relationship assuming that love is the key to success is not the best approach to take

14:05 The inner development that we have to commit to can sometimes be challenging

19:03 Stan shares his practical tips on how to create a shared purpose and vision as a couple

33:29 The importance of being cognizant of that we continue to evolve as individuals while developing our purpose, vision, governance, and ethics as a couple

33:48 Why we should intentionally create form-fitting principles to ground our relationship

40:32 How PACT can help couples improve their relationships

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Think about how to change the paradigm around intentionality in your relationship
• Have explicit conversations about what you see as your joint purpose
• Appreciate that without a shared vision, your relationship is more likely to flounder
• Start building a set of principles that govern your relationship
• Understand the impact of your early life on your attachment style in the present

Mentioned

We Do: Saying Yes to a Relationship of Depth, True Connection, and Enduring Love, by Stan Tatkin (*Amazon Link)

Your Brain on Love: The Neurobiology of Healthy Relationships, by Stan Tatkin (*Amazon Link)

Relationship Rx, by Stan Tatkin (*Amazon Link)

Wired for Dating: How Understanding Neurobiology and Attachment Style Can Help You Find Your Ideal Mate, by Stan Tatkin (*Amazon Link)

Love and War in Intimate Relationships: Connection, Disconnection, and Mutual Regulation in Couple Therapy, by Stan Tatkin (*Amazon Link)

Relationship Road Map

Connect with Dr. Stan Tatkin

Website: thepactinstitute.com 

Facebook: facebook.com/drstantatkin

Instagram: instagram.com/drstantatkin/

Twitter: @DrStanTatkin

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About Today's Show

Stan, thank you for joining us today.

It's great to see you again. Jessica.

Yes, I'm honored. I know you're such a distinguished guest on the show. And so, I appreciate you saying yes. You're such a brilliant teacher. So, we're lucky to have this time with you.

Thank you. Thank you. I'm glad to be here.

Yes. And in early June, I was a part of a couples' conference that you were keynote speaking on a couple different topics. But one topic really rang a bell around how helpful it would be for our listeners on the Empowered Relationship Podcast to get some insight from you as you talk about how love is not enough. I'm wondering. Can you just give us a framework around where you're coming from with this statement of love not being enough? I know you reference a lot of science too. So, let's just start there.

Well, love can be defined in lots of different ways, and it is defined by whoever is using the word. But love often is why people stay together, they say they stay together. Why are you together when the relationship is so miserable? “Because I love her.” “Because I love him.” And this is a problem with couples.

In all other unions in a free society, people get together based on terms/conditions, correct? We get together, not based on feeling, although we get excited about the project, but we have a shared purpose or reason why we're going to get on board and do something with another person or other people.

We have a shared vision. We have shared ideas of how we're going to govern and what the rules are. So that everybody gets along, and everybody feels that they are getting what they came to get. They're avoiding what they don't want – painful things, awful things. That's the way most unions are constructed.

Unfortunately, couples don't do that. Couples just don't do that. People will go into this automatically blind, with some idea, usually personally held idea either from their family of origin or what they read or some romantic notion, that love will will out and attraction is everything and having common interests.

And actually, nature doesn't care about relationships. It only cares about procreation or continuation of the species. And so, whether you're gay or straight, whether you are same sex, opposite sex, it doesn't matter. Nature will do its thing. And then, we're on our own.

And so, when people say that they are together because they love each other, I worry, because it's not the kind of thing that's going to carry the day. There's really good reason for this. Human beings, I don't care where they are in the planet, the human primate is by nature, it sounds depressing but it's really not, by nature, all of us war like aggressive, impulsive, moody, fickle, opportunistic, easily influenceable by groups, turning on a dime, always comparing and contrasting, always aware of what's missing, and feeling disappointed, xenophobic, racist. That's off the shelf, factory line, human being. We know this because children are this way. Children are the very, very central nature of the human primate. So, to not understand that and to not plan, prepare, predict, is just naive.

Yes, I love you. And yes, I'm with you because I believe you're a good character, good moral compass. I believe you're a good person, good faith. But I also know you're human. So am I. What are the chances we're going to do any of the things I just listed when we're under stress?

Really high, if not guaranteed. So, to not keep that in mind and to come up, co-create, as co-architects the relationship that we want, not the relationship we had or that we grew up with, but something that is new that is co-created and fit for the two of us, what do we really want and what do we never want? What are we going to do and what are we never going to do?

And that's an agreement between two autonomous individuals together based on condition, based on terms, because it's in their best interest to do it. That's a whole different attitude and a different way of thinking that actually can last a lifetime. And the other system, not so much.

We have to understand that the basic human being is not built for long term relationships. We are too easily threatened. We pick up threat cues everywhere. We don't communicate very well on any given day. Our memories are not reliable yet we'll fight to the death with that. Our perceptions are like a funhouse mirror, constantly changing according to how we feel in the moment.

And so, we have to move up several levels in complexity in intelligence and wisdom to know that we have to do better. The average human being will do exactly what it wants when it wants to, if it's convenient, or if the tides turn that way. That's not reliable.

And so, we want people to actually think and be adults in crafting a structure in an environment that is theirs. And that's how they're going to govern each other is according to their principles.

Thank you. Thank you. There's so much richness to what you're saying. I know we could go into even more depth about the science around how we might remember inaccurately or perceive incorrectly based on our threatened state.

You're also speaking to how the neuro chemicals support us in those beginning stages of bonding for procreation, but those wane, right? And then, we can't rely on that type of intensity, that fuel, to sustain the relationship. It sounds like you're really inviting people to get ahead of the system, to be mindful and be strategic around how to set up the relationship for success.

And that actually, these things that you're describing are very human, that are very animal of us, and that we are animals in the sense of just all of the things you're describing are very understandable, normal, and to be expected, like you're saying.

And if we're going to be intentional, and be really setting our relationship up, there's some very key roadmap structure that you really invite people into to be more prepared to have this sustained relationship that is governed by all the things you talk about, is that right? Am I getting it?

That's correct. It's a reorientation towards a shared culture that is co-created, not one that was handed down and that we do automatically reflexively by memory.

And that's huge. That's huge because so many of us want to feel this love and this notion that is so appealing. And we love that. And we're also very informed by culture, and then also what relational imprints we have based on our early modelling that all of these things are incredibly strong. So, if we go into this as love is the key and we take a passive stance, you're saying that's not the best recipe.

No, the kind of love that people ordinarily affixed to is passing. It's transient. It's temporal. It does not exist in a way that actually governs us. Feelings, if they're governing us, we're in for a very wild ride. We have to have an intention and purpose to handle our impulses. Otherwise, it's the Wild West, and we're going to do something harmful to another person who is interdependent with us. So, we can't possibly do that.

Now, real love, I think, is earned up. It's the things we do for each other throughout every day that demonstrates our fealty to each other, that we are doing better more than the average person that we raise the bar to ascend to things we really want even though they're not in our wheelhouse, not easy, certainly not convenient, but we want them. And because we want them, we make each other get there, regardless of how we feel.

Now, that is something worth a lot of money, right? The right thing to do, the best thing to do when it's the hardest, regardless of how we feel, that's safety.

And that, like you're saying, is so worth the investment. Not only in the security and the safety and the health of the couple. And also, as you're talking that inner character that we develop and their development internally to partake in these secure, earned, loving behaviors that aren't convenient, that aren't easy.

That's right. Right. And we know it, therefore, it's worth something. It just doesn't come because we feel like everybody can do that. Everybody can do good things when they're feeling fine. What we're concerned about as couple therapists, is, what are you going to do when you don't feel like it? What do you do when you're under stress? That's where the rubber meets the road because that's what counts, right?

In the military, or in paramilitary organizations where people depend on each other for their lives, it's drilled into them that you're not important. The person to your left and right is more important than you because they're going to save your life.

And that's true for couples, they just don't realize it.

I appreciate you underscoring that. I can feel just the echo of people who have known this level of camaraderie of having one another's back to this degree that it is a lifetime. That bonding and that level of safety is tremendous. It can't be emphasized enough.

I can't be emphasized enough because the world doesn't make that agreement with us. The world is different, dangerous, unpredictable. We're always at risk due to our environment.

Not your parents, not your friends. Only this person. And you'll know that when the chips are down, when people are under a lot of stress and distress. You're going to count on each other because that's the agreement. And that's great, but other people are going to take care of themselves when under duress. That's just the way it is.

Yes. And as we're talking, Stan, I get this feeling that it's the foundation. If we don't have the foundation solid, all the fun and all the beauty and all the things that we get to create together are very fragile, and it goes away.

This is where if you want to trust your partner, but then when push comes to shove, and it's stressful, and then somebody is outside of bounds for whatever the bounds are, then we don't trust them and we're protesting to try to get that trust, but then that's where it's just we're beating our heads against the wall trying to get and this is where people like yourself and myself might be supportive and helping them regroup and really look at the foundation and get that solid. But if this isn't secure, there's a lot of difficulty that, I mean, is likely going to come like you said.

Yeah, if there's no structure, if there's no organization, its chaos. People have to understand that under those circumstances, people will always do what they feel like it when they feel like it, or won't do things when they don't feel like it.

I'd like to say we're better than that but we're not. We're not. We organize around shared interests, shared stakeholders. You and I have been having families that have been at war for decades. Yeah, I'm kind of tired of that. I'd like to be able to sleep at night and know that we're not going to get murdered in our beds. I'm sure you feel the same way. Let's stop it. Let's call a permanent truce.

Not only that. We have technology that we could probably put together and we can make a lot of money. So, let's survive and prosper together. Okay? People have been doing that throughout the beginning of time, human history. That's called civilization. Now, that's groups of people. We're only talking about two people. Two people.

And for some strange reason, in the couple world, nobody thinks of this. Nobody considers it. For some reason, this is the only union where people are flying by the seat of their pants and just casting their fates to the wind. There's no prediction. There's no preparations. There's no downward looking to the future, nothing.

And then, people wonder why they crash and burn. And it makes perfect sense, because without shared purpose, people will pull away and bang up against each other.

Okay. And while we have you, you're speaking to shared purpose and shared vision. Let's start there for couples that are listening that perhaps this is something they've heard about, but it's been rather esoteric, right? And like, what does that mean? Can you give us what the purpose and the vision when you talk about this shared purpose and vision?

Here's some examples. We put our relationship first. It's the highest priority, not because other things will be neglected. But because we believe that if we're not in good shape, we can't be as good at other things. Parenting, we're not as creative, we're not as effective. We don't have the same courage or energy.

We require each other to work together toward the same goals in order to resource each other, in order to actually exist because human beings are dyadic creatures. They need relationships, and we need particularly dyadic ones. Not all people, but most people. And those relationships we call primary attachment systems.

We don't do anything great alone. We're better together. We're stronger together. We're awesome together. We're radical defenders of each other, protecting each other in public and private. We have a responsibility to be each other's handlers in the best way. I know the animal I'm with. I'm an expert at you. I'm a good, Jessica, whisperer, right? I know there's nothing Jessica can do that I don't know what to do, and handle her without using fear or threat, guilt, or shame. I use attraction. I know exactly how to do that and I'm competent. And Jessica knows how to do that with me, too.

We're awesome.

By the way, this is the job that parents should have. But most of us didn't get that at all. But we can because we decided we're going to do that. And so, we are the constants. Let's say we have a principle, where if one of us is in distress, the other one drops what they're doing and ministers to that person. Where else are you going to get that? Nowhere. You have to pay a lot of money for that, but we do it.

We're each other's confidants. We tell each other everything. Why not? But there's also a functional managerial reason, because the left and right hand has to know what it's doing. Otherwise, we can't govern. Because as a couple, we decide. We're at the top of the food chain. You and I are top dogs, the governors, the leaders. We handle everyone and everything, including each other.

That requires free flow of information. Otherwise, we can't govern. So structurally, we're building up a sense of purpose and things that we have in common such as survival. We have in common wanting to thrive. We ensure each other's happiness, and well-being at all times. I ensure yours. You ensure mine. We can do that.

And so, that becomes our stated jobs. It's worth a ton of money because there's nowhere else you can get that unless you pay a lot of money. But we're doing it at equals out. We're equal burdens on each other. And we get the same benefits. All by agreement. Because we want that, because we say so. The rest of it, how do we do it?

Well, that's enforcement. That comes after that. But basically, we set the bar high. This is where we're pointed, and now we make each other get there. And two people who agree and want the same thing can do that. If we don't, I want the same thing that'll never happen. If we don't know what we want that will never happen.

Right. Exactly, which is what we were just talking about before where we kind of go into this with a lot of implicit expectations or haven't really thought it through all the way. So, do you recommend that people actually have explicit conversations about what they want as a purpose and what they want as a vision as a couple?

Yes, and that is a constant. You and are constantly shaping our structure, our ethos, our relationship ethics. We're constantly stretching it to our taste, to our benefit. It has to be good for me and good for you, or it's not worth anything.

Therefore, we're very careful about what we point to, and we make sure we understand what we're talking about. We talked about, are there any downsides to this agreement? No, there are no downsides. There is only upside.

Is it going to be easy? No, but that's not the reason we're doing it. We're not doing it because it's easy. We're doing it because it's good. Because we want that. It's the best thing. And so, the rest of it is we push each other, limit each other to do it to get there. Two people can do that. One person can't.

I can say, “Hey, remember? You said you wanted this. You did it. You got to do it. I'm doing it, do it. We said we wanted to avoid this at all costs because it's mutually assured destruction. You can't do that. I can't. You can't. So, stop it.”

Do you think people attempt to do this in their vows, but it's so aspirational that it doesn't give them real structure?

Vows like that is as good as a fortune cookie.

Right. Right. Agreed.

Most of them are gotten off the internet. I mean, do you remember your vows? I mean, how many people remember their vows verbatim?

I don't remember them, but our situation was very different. I had a lot of understanding around these principles. So, I was already kind of beaming them in. And yes to your point, they live in me, but they're not something I refer to on a regular basis by any means.

Vows are terms that we're both going to do. I don't vow something that you're not going to vow. Otherwise, it's a one-person system. It's a sound of one hand clapping. Only thing that's worth it is that we've decided we're going to do this, we decide we're never going to do that.

And we're a separate country. We have sovereignty. We are in charge of everyone. Therefore, nobody gets in our way. They're included, but they don't split us. They can't interfere with our sovereignty. We decide how everything is going to go. And that's not aggressive, by the way. That's just strategic and tactical. But it's a different way of thinking that the hard part is reorienting people to think this way because so many people were raised in families that were overly pro-self and not pro-relationship. And that's exactly what they bring to the table when they get into an adult relationship.

We're automatic creatures that are operating by memory to our every day, all day. We're not thinking most of the time. And that's because one of the rules of biology is energy conservation. We do the least amount necessary. And that's how we all are. Nobody really cares, and why should they, to look at why they do what they do, and are they really doing it based on choice? Are they doing it automatically based on their childhoods? That's the most of the world.

Yes, I'm so glad you named that because, Stan, as you were talking, I was like, I wonder if you experience people having some resistance to this because it doesn't maybe feel sexy, or doesn't maybe feel necessarily on face value fun or really that exciting. And yet the benefits of it are so tremendous. And the costs and the risks and the consequences of not doing it are so grave, right. So, it's almost like people need to be educated on the value of this before, like you said, that they can change their paradigm or their thinking around being able to do this. Is that what you're seeing?

I think there are models for this, but those models include systems that enforce it and you have no choice but to do that. Just like your family, like the military or police academy, or fire department or any place where the culture is determined by the system because lives are at stake.

So, people get that real quick. But if I had the permission to take a couple and bolt their inner legs together for time, they would get it real quick, because if either then tried to move without the other, they'd feel pain. If either of them tried to pull apart, they wouldn't go anywhere.

If one of them tried to move too fast, the other one falls and they're carrying dead weight. They would get it that this is reality. It's not made up. That's the actual reality of a two-person system. I can't do anything without affecting you and that effect is coming right back at me. If it's good, it's going to be good. If it's bad, watch out. So, it's a different thing.

We're separate individuals, but we move together in lockstep that takes being oriented that way. Otherwise, we'll pull against each other and we'll go to war. That's just a fact. So, it's a reorientation. And that part is hard because under stress, we tend to revert to our interests only when as soon as we do that, we force our partner to do the same. That causes us to square off and we end up with nothing. That's just the way of the world. That's not personal. That's all human beings.

Right. And this is where we see people that are deeply in love and then very quickly are at war. Right? And you mentioned divorce or that it can be so incredibly contentious.

Yes, because we're threat animals. Our job primarily is to stay alive. That's been built into us. And so, forgive me if now the novelty of you is worn off. And now, I've automated you like I automate everything that's novel.

I think I know you. First mistake – I think I know you. Second mistake, I confused you with family. You're not. You're a stranger. You'll always be a stranger than I'm constantly trying to get to know. But because of energy conservation, it's easier to think I know you and it's easier to think of you as family because then I can do whatever I want. After all, you're family. So, these are common errors of biology and we have to know this.

So, I stopped paying attention. I stop looking at you. I stopped being present. I get bored with you because I'm no longer paying attention. Right? I'm looking elsewhere for novelty, that's again, normal. Remember, nature doesn't care as long as we've made babies. That's fine. We're going to be dead soon anyway says nature because we never lived past 15 or 30. We do now.

And so, now what? And so, we have to learn this. We have to upper game and learn how to be cooperative and collaborative and how to work in unison with another person. Because there are terrific gains in doing that.

If we're insecure, we don't believe that because we come from a family where it was too unfair and too unjust, insensitive, and therefore I don't trust anything that sounds equal. I'm going to get screwed somehow. That's the resistance I'll get is that in this idea of unification and of shared principles, ideas, and purpose, people are deeply suspicious because they have memories of betrayal, memories of neglect, memories of being second citizens, not being important, being abandoned. And those are real memories. And that's why it's harder, I think, for people to reorient on their own like this.

Yes, and to attempt to enter into interdependence that feels so threatening because they haven't known what you're describing in the way of safe attunement, and that they can engage. That is so cool. I mean, one starts to understand how this works, how the game is played, a couple can do anything. They can do anything. They can solve any problem. They can create anything out of whole cloth. They can make things happen if they know how to work together. If they don't know how to work together, they can't even get out of the weeds, because the war is in the foxhole. They can't get anything accomplished because they don't trust each other.

We cannot. So, this takes overriding. This takes being smarter than the animal that we are. Accepting it as fine. It's not a problem, we just have to know it exists. And we have to know how to trick the system, override it so that we can rise above it. Otherwise, we'll just do what all human beings do, which is really great. But also, eventually destructive. Because it's genuinely for us. It doesn't take you into consideration at all times. And it's supposed to be at all times.

Thank you for mentioning the potential because I think that that was something I was trying to get out earlier about on face value this might not feel that exciting, but what it actually creates is everything.

It's amazing.

Okay, awesome. Well, again, you do such a great job in helping people understand. And you teach with beautiful metaphors and help people really get these concepts. And today I'm wondering, is there anything you want to say about beginning to put this into practice? You've mentioned having something that you are cognizant of, that you're referring to, that you're continuing to evolve in the way of purpose, vision, and governance, and ethics? Is there anything you want to say about how people might be engaging in that practice? And I know you have a lot to offer.

Think of it as a structure where either you start at the foundation or you think of the roof the house. First things first, what is the highest principle? If the highest principle is our relationship comes first above all other matters, then that means that we put our interests first ahead of everyone, because if we're not okay, no one is.

So, that's why we do it. Not to serve ourselves, but so that we're effective elsewhere. Otherwise, we're going to run out of energy or we won't have any. So, if that's true, we put our oxygen masks on first and then everything below that serves that highest value.

We tell each other everything. Why? Because we have to work together. If we're handling everybody else, we have to share information. Why not? It makes life easier. Also, why not be each other's confidants? We picked each other. Why spend money on a therapist when you have somebody next to you in bed all the time? They're there. Use each other. Both of you use each other. You have the same thing to lose, and the same thing to gain. You protect each other all the time, public and private.

Now, you said fun and sexy. Let's say you and I, being just people, decide, “You know what? Do we both want to feel loved?” So, we start to agree. Yeah, we both want to feel loved. Okay? Do we want affection? Chances are we'll both agree. Do we want to have sex? Whatever sex means we'll define that. Yeah, we want that. Okay. So, let's put that in place. We both want that. Let's put that in place.

And then, we can determine how you like this and how I like this because we're form fitting it to our tastes. I'm doing it to yours. You're doing to mine because I'm a different animal than you. We both get what we want. And then, we put things in place of how we're going to do that. So, let's come up with a principle where you and I are going to do loving, romantic, affectionate things for each other throughout each day and it's the way you like it. And it's the way I like it, to be clear.

And here's the question, what about if we hate each other that day? Do we still do it? The answer should be yes. What about if we're breaking up, should we still do it? The answer should be yes. In other words, no matter how we feel, it gets done. That thing happens. Is that worth anything? Absolutely. That's going to be worth a lot because that's going to happen. Even if we don't feel like it, it gets done. We get that thing.

Will it be hard? You bet. Because we're going to have to override our impulses by doing the right thing when it's the hardest. But we're both invested in that and we'll both hold each other to it. You have to do it. So, we're ensuring that whatever we pick will happen, and we're going to make each other do it. “Make each other…”

You said you would do it. You said you wanted this, do it. I'm going to do it. That's awesome. That's something that nothing else will ever do. Nobody else will ever do on but we're going to do that. So, that's where fun and excitement can come in. We're going to do it spontaneously. It's not planned, right? Unless we want to plan something. Although that's not a principle.

A principle is an overarching idea that we want, that we make. When we fight or something goes awry, we signal that our relationship is okay. Okay. We don't have to solve world peace. But we're going to solve the existential concern among all humans, that there's a breach between you and I. We're okay. Because the thing that happens is, we wonder in the back of our heads. Will the relationship exist tomorrow? Neither of us want that. So, come hell or high water I come in, and I apologize to you.

Let's say we have an hour limit. No matter what, no matter how defiant, and how much pride I feel on how I believe I was right, I'm going to come in. I'm going to apologize to you, I'm not going to defend it because that's the right thing to do, the best thing to do because I'm serving the relationship that serves me.

That's how we think. And that's how we start to make things happen that are good for both of us, and that support life in our ecosystem. The sky's the limit because it's up to partners. We decide what we want. Nobody else.

Do you recommend a certain number, like if it gets too many?

Yeah, if you're making lists of this, keep in mind that principles are like commandments. You want them pithy, plaque worthy, and big enough to handle a lot of things lower. Otherwise, you're looking at a penal code book.

Right!

And you can look everything up to go, “Oh, wait a second. I think you've violated Code 230?” I mean, no. We're focusing on the spirit of something, not the letter of law. Not the letter of law, right?

Yes.

So, I remember I had a student once that came out during lunchtime and asked me, “When you said partners tell each other everything, do you really mean everything?” And I said, “Well, actually, only insecure take that literally. Secure is the spirit of something and not the letter of the law. And people know when they're violating something that's going to hurt the other person and come right back at them.” And she turned red.

So, this is not a literal thing. This is just like “thou shalt not kill”. Everyone understands that. Then you have to ask, “What if I don't like the person?” You still can't kill him. “What if I'm mad?” You still can't kill him. “What if it's revenge?” Okay. It's self-evident. You don't have to do that. That's what people are looking for.

Yes. And, you know, I know for people that might be just beginning this work, right. There can be something to be said around trying to implement a lot, right? It can be a lot to focus on. But like you said, a lot of these things.

Weren't them.

Right. Yes. Okay, great. Well, I'm curious. Is there any place that you want to direct people to that they can kind of engage with this more or learn more about what you're sharing today?

Yes, people can find me at The Pact Institute, ThePactInstitute.com. And there, they'll find a lot of information. If you're a therapist, psychiatrist, physician, whatever you want to learn how to do this practice, that's where you would get information on training, which we do worldwide, throughout the year.

And if you're a couple, and you want to come to one of our many, couple retreats, which I run with my partner, my wife, who's in charge of me, do so, we sell out and we're adding more and more because they're so popular. And we do that worldwide. We actually have a great one in Spain at a monastery next year, which is planned, God willing with COVID. And that's a great experience for anybody who wants to join us.

I will just say this really quickly. What I'm pitching here is not new. It is not fancy. It's reality. It is the way of the world. Look around. This is all people. No other system will work in the long run at all. Therefore, there's really nothing else to do, but to start to think about this and learn this, because that will ensure the length of your relationship will last happily.

But also, any system that doesn't focus on third things, what we want, what we're focused on, the problem we're trying to solve, the place we're trying to get to, will start to create civil war. Will start to battle within. And that's happening in our country right now. Without a common view, common purpose or vision, people will start to fight each other. And that is the very definition of why people divorce. So, I hope people got something out of this.

Yes, absolutely. And for people that are interested in going deeper, it sounds like you have these workshops. Are you talking about this in your books? Is there anything you want to point to around which book they could start with?

I like We do. We do was the latest one. I'm finishing up another one which is actually broken down by complaints. My partner is lazy. My partner voted for this person. My partner doesn't like social situations. So, it's broken down by complaints, and how to work through them.

Perfect.

And I just finished a book that's out now called Baby Bomb, co-written with another person, Kara Hoppe, and that's to prepare a couple for the baby.

Baby Bomb.

Baby Bomb. It's focusing on the couple, not the baby. It's a book on how to stay a couple when planning and having your first baby, second baby, third baby, so that the couple will stay in good form throughout the entire course of their relationship.

Oh, thank you. Thank you for what you're doing. I'll make sure to have those links to those books as well as to your website and the workshops. Stan, keep up what you're doing. We are so privileged to be receiving your insight and understanding and teaching. Thank you.

Thank you, Jessica. It's always a pleasure with you.

Awesome!

Signing Off

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