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Friction and differences are breeding grounds for real conflicts, especially for couples. Because of one's environment, upbringing, situation, and other factors, we develop different personalities which can all contribute to our reactive patterns and biases.

Personality is such a complex psychological concept but what if we can bring understanding to what’s going on? See where these perspectives are coming from? That would be a real game-changer!

Beatrice Chestnut, Ph.D., is a psychotherapist coach and business consultant based in San Francisco, and Uranio Paes, MBA is a world-renowned Enneagram teacher and business consultant. They are the founders of Chestnut Paes Enneagram Academy and the hosts of the Enneagram 2.0 Podcast.

They are also the authors of the forthcoming book, The Enneagram Guide to Waking Up: Find Your Path, Face Your Shadow, Discover Your True Self.

In their work around the world, Beatrice and Urano focus on using the Enneagram as a tool for personal and professional transformation.

In this episode, they briefly talk about the nine personality types in the Enneagram, the habitual patterns around these types, and essentially how this can be a powerful tool in improving relationships.

In this Episode 

5:59 What’s the Enneagram and what makes it so powerful

9:28 How the Enneagram can help with our relationships and how we interact with other personality types

10:37 Why it’s recommended to get explicit and talk about it in couplehood

14:19 An overview of the nine types

33:35 Finding your type

42:25 About Enneagram Academy and other professional workshops they offer

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Use the Enneagram to find your type. Books, podcasts, and videos are recommended as online tests may not be accurate.
• Find someone who knows the system very well and does type interviews.
• Ask people who know you pretty well for feedback.
• Share what you learned with your partner and find out what his/her type is. 
• Start doing it as a couple. By learning about the “why” behind the behavior, you'll begin to understand and appreciate each other more.

Mentioned

• The Enneagram Guide to Waking Up: Find Your Path, Face Your Shadow, Discover Your True Self (*Amazon Link)
• Enneagram 2.0 with Beatrice Chestnut and Uranio Paes
• The Enneagram Academy

Connect with Beatrice Chestnut

Website: beatricechestnut.com

Facebook: facebook.com/beatricechestnutphd 

Instagram: instagram.com/beatrice.chestnut 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/beatrice-chestnut-0493602/

Connect with Uranio Paes

Facebook: facebook.com/uranio.paes 

Instagram: instagram.com/uraniopaes/

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/urânio-paes-624129/

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About Today's Show

Beatrice and Uranio, thank you so much for joining us today.

It's our pleasure. Thank you, Jessica.

Good to be here.

Yes. I was just telling you both that I really feel that the Enneagram is a great system and tool. I've wanted to do an episode even though I have a little training in it. This is by no means something that I teach on or work with couples or an expert in. And so, this is you guys' expertise.

I know that we could do the whole show on even just breaking down what the Enneagram system is, what the types are. We're not going to go super deep. I know you guys have an episode about that, and there's lots of information for people to get those basics. So, I'll point people to that in the show notes.

We would love to hear, though, if you can give us a real broad, just for people that are tuning in and don't know some foundation to just work with today's conversation.

The Enneagram is a personality typology, in one sense, but it's also much more than that. The Enneagram typology is built around a diagram or a symbol. The symbol itself has a lot of meaning, more than we'll go into now, but it derives from ancient wisdom.

It's the framework for a personality typology. I think what makes the Enneagram so powerful is its nine interconnected types provide really accurate and detailed descriptions of the habitual patterns of thinking, feeling, and behaving of the nine personalities it describes.

When people find their type within the system, it gives them a lot of information both about habits that they tend to play out in their lives in a really automatic way, but in a way that they're probably sometimes conscious of. But it also highlights blind spots and challenges associated with what each personality type typically focuses its attention on.

It's kind of a default mode of operating in the world that helps people see more clearly, both how they operate in ways that are functional, but also how those ways of operating become self-limiting when we overuse or get stuck in habits that work in some situations, but may not be the best approach in all situations.

The Enneagram really is an excellent growth tool for increasing self-awareness, first of all, and guiding self-observation and deeper and deeper self-reflection about the self-limiting patterns that both helped us survive in childhood but become ways of getting stuck or creating problems for us in adulthood.

The system also helps us have empathy for others. Because before people learn the Enneagram, they often say something like, “Well, I thought everyone saw the world the way I do.” You're not in someone else's head. How can you know how someone else sees the world, or how they feel, or think, or what drives them?

The Enneagram helps us understand, “Oh, there are these other eight personalities with these other eight perspectives.” And so, it helps us understand other people and clarify points of difference between the different ways we approach reality and the different things that we tend to focus on habitually.

So not only does it give us some guidance in identifying some of these habitual patterns, or these tendencies around personality types, it also gives us some guidance around, if I'm hearing you correctly, what the typical lessons to learn or even what the gifts are, and then even still, what a developmental process could look like advancing in that type. Is that right?

Exactly. The beauty of the Enneagram is it's a growth model. The symbolic meaning of the symbol, it's a symbol of transformation, so it's all about growth. It's all about seeing what you do and especially what motivates you, why you do what you do so that you can have more conscious choices that lead to doing things differently so that you can grow and broaden your range of tools that you have for operating in the world.

It sounds like you're saying there's a big component too of looking at our relationships and how we interact and also having awareness around other personality types or other types that could bring awareness to what our goals are, where we're coming from, yes? Yes, Jessica. I think that's very right. What we experience actually is that because the Enneagram explains what is behind behavior, the true more unconscious motivation for behavior, and also with a lot of acceptance and a lot of awareness, when people do this Enneagram work together, like a couple, they start appreciating much more where the other is coming from.

And also, as the Enneagram suggests, self-development paths and not only point out who we are now, then the combination of the two things are quite powerful in relationship work.

Yes, because it can be an added resource to help, again, bring insight into someone's orientation or even as you're describing their behavior. I'm curious. I'm probably jumping ahead, but do you recommend people get really explicit and talk about this in couplehood?

I think it can be an amazing tool. And even when I work with teams and organizations, what people often say, the individuals on the team say, “I can't wait to talk with my spouse about this.” or “I've already shared this with my wife or husband, and now we're talking about it together in our relationship.”

I was a psychotherapist for many years for over 20 years, and I did a lot of couples counseling. I found it to be an incredibly powerful tool to use with couples because it helped us get very quickly and efficiently to kind of the heart of the matter around what both partners did well, what their strengths were, but also what their blind spots were and what especially points of difference with each other and how they could get into dynamics with each other based on their personality style and what they focused attention on and what was different about that.

Yes, the friction and the differences are fertile ground for real conflict. If we can bring understanding to what's going on, what perspective we're coming from, and also what it means to us, it can really be a game-changer.

Yeah, definitely. I think it's all about awareness. Right? So, knowing more both what is behind their behavior and the other person's behavior, they forgive more easily. They understand that not everything is personal or intentional. People also develop new ways of communicating that are more respectful.

So key. I love everything you're saying because yes, we are often projecting what we think something means in our partner's behavior because if we were to do XYZ, it would mean this, right, versus what you're saying is if we can really have this dialogue, it opens up so much more, not only the respect, and how to care for one another but also what things mean, right, rather than just these assumptions that we often operate within.

Exactly. I think more than anything else, it provides a neutral language for talking about points of difference and dynamics that doesn't raise defensiveness. From the Enneagram point of view, no type is better or worse than any other.

It's a little bit like, “Oh, I'm a two, and you're a seven. I'm looking at things this way, and I'm doing my two patterns, and you're doing your seven patterns.” Neither one is right or wrong. It doesn't mean that either of us is more at fault.

And so, it reduces defensiveness because instead of sort of needing to be right or thinking that there's one sort of more acceptable way of being, it gives respect to the different perspectives and the different worldviews and all the patterns that are deeply embedded that people bring into their relationships.

Thank you. I have an example that's popping up in my own mind between me and my husband. And before we go to examples, I'm curious, would you guys give us a snapshot, because, for listeners who aren't familiar, it might be helpful to just have a real touch in around the nine types. I know we could spend the entire episode focusing on that, but just to kind of name them and a quick snapshot. Would that be possible?

I like to start with the fact that the nine types are grouped into three groups of three. This also gives us insight into another level of the Enneagram teaching, which is the idea that we humans have three centers of intelligence and our personality functions through these centers.

These centers of intelligence are ways of taking in information from the outside world and processing it. The idea is that we have a head center that thinks and analyzes, we have a heart center that's the basis of emotions and empathy with others, and a body center that's about instinctual intelligence, a gut knowing, kinesthetic intelligence, moving into action or not, and that there are three types that overuse each of these three centers.

So, the idea is when we identify with a personality, it's, by definition, a lower level of consciousness than we're capable of. But we mistakenly identify with our personality, thinking that's all of who we are. Basically, our defensive strategies. But the idea is that when we're out of balance, we sort of overuse one center more than the other two.

There are three types that overuse or live more from the head center, Types five, six, and seven. Three types that overuse or live more from the body-based center, that's eight, nine and one. And three types that live more from the heart center, that's two, three, and four

I'm a two, so I'll start by describing two, three, and four very briefly. And then, I'd love to have Uranio describe the other six types. Twos, Threes, and fours really see the world very much through the lens of relationships. So, if we're talking about a relationship podcast, these three types are the types that really are based more on their emotions and focus a lot of attention on relationships.

Other types focus on other things more primarily, but these three types focus a lot on relationships. These three types often had the experience in childhood that they were rewarded, or appreciated, or loved, or approved of more for how they presented themselves in a relationship or what they did for others, as opposed to who they really essentially are, the kind of true self.

And so, the coping strategies of these three types centers around creating an image or a presentation to create connections with others. All of the nine types have sort of a central coping strategy and sort of adaptive patterns that grow out of those coping strategies. But two, which is my type, is a type that, and again, all of these types are very much based on what they pay attention to most.

Now, of course, when we pay attention to some things, there are things we don't pay attention to. So, that's key in this that there are also blind spots. So, twos pay a lot of attention to other people. Now, some types are other referencing, and some types are self-referencing. Twos are other referencing. They pay a lot of attention to other people. Their main coping strategy is aligning with, connecting with, creating real positive relationships with others.

Their method for that, their sort of strategy is to be supportive, pleasing. They're known as the helper or the giver, but that can be a little bit simplistic because it's a strategic giving. It's (A) I'm going to be pleasing, and I'm going to spend a lot of energy shapeshifting to be the person you want me to be, but what I want in return, which is often unconscious, is for you to, if I meet your needs, then you'll meet my needs when I want you to without asking the same way I read your needs and try to be there for you without you even having to ask.

So, it's a type that is very warm and friendly and complimentary of the other and really navigating the world through creating positive good feeling relationships and avoiding rejection, disapproval, things like that.

Then, the three is a type that is sometimes called the performer. It's a type that creates an image of success or competence. They tend to be more work-focused than relationship-focused on the surface, although they are heart types, and they're very good at reading the audience or reading the room, which is a heart function. They read the audience to figure out, okay, what are the people in this context think of as successful or competent, and I become that.

They do it in whatever context they're in. They're also shapeshifters like twos. And they're chameleons. They can sort of fit into any situation, look good no matter what situation they're in. But it's a lot about goals and tasks and work because that supports achievement and being successful. That's their main coping strategy. That's how they're going to gain admiration and connection with others.

And then type four is the third heart-type. This is the type that is mostly based on their emotions. It's a type that is more internally focused, self-focused. And while they might shapeshift a little bit, they're sort of at the other end of the spectrum in that they value authenticity and the authentic expression of emotion to create mutual understanding.

So, they are really focused a lot on being understood by others, being seen. They try to create an image more of being unique or special. They tend to have an artistic sensibility because they're expressing their internal emotions to create understanding.

Now, they tend to compare themselves a lot to others, often see themselves as lacking because of that. So, they can have an underlying deficient sense of self. Or they can compare themselves and feel a little bit better than others, but usually not equal, because they're trying to stand out as special, but also often worrying that they don't have what it takes to be worthy of love and being seen as special in a certain way.

Right. And the head types, fives, sixes, and sevens, are quite different from the heart types. First, because actually, connection and staying connected is more of a challenge for them. The head types are more concerned with anticipation, whatever can happen in the future, or whatever can happen next. And there is a little bit of intolerance, of uncertainty.

As they also are very analytical, logical, they plan a lot. It's a little bit hard for them to be in a situation where they can't explain. And that happens a lot with feelings, as we know, so many relationships. Sometimes these types are perceived as having a harder time expressing emotions and also reading emotions from other people. It's not as easy for head types to have empathy unless they develop it, which is what all of us can do. But in a way, the heart types have an easier time doing that.

Type five, which happens to be my type, is pretty much focused on gaining knowledge and observing people and the world. They seek privacy quite a bit. So, it's not that they lack privacy at times. It's that they need privacy, let's say every day. For the other person, it looks like they are disconnecting from them. That creates some issues in relationships, but super important for fives to process what's going on when they go be alone. And relationships get better actually when they have that time for themselves.

And at the same time, because the attention goes more to learning and also avoiding too much intensity and also preventing themselves from being demanded upon too much. Because of all that, they find it a bit harder to do what I would call the relationship game. It's something that is harder for fives in general. It helps a lot when the other know that it's hard for them and helps them engage little by little through sharing some information and getting closer a bit more slowly, and let them feel more comfortable when doing that. And eventually, they can be super connected.

Now, type six is a type a bit more based on fear itself, which means that they find it a little harder to trust others. They are always scanning for what's wrong or, let's say, scanning for potential problems or risks.

In relationships, that might frustrate the other person. But really, the objective of sixes when they are looking for danger is to guarantee that the best will happen. So, some people perceive them as being pessimistic, but actually, they find themselves realistic, if not optimistic, because they believe they are doing what the best thing for the relationship to succeed is. And sixes need reassurance. They need to feel safe by means of having all the information and talking, everything on the table, and transparency and loyalty. They value that a lot.

Now, sevens need multiple options in what they do. Like, in projects in life. They tend to jump from one subject to another. They multitask quite a bit. These people look for pleasure in all they're doing, so relationships for them need to be fun. And if they are not fun, it's very hard to carry on. So for sevens, one of the issues in relationships, Jessica, is that they find it hard to have difficult conversations. Just talk and process when there is a true need to get in touch with pain and suffering. That's not very comfortable for them. They sort of rationalize that and try to be on the positive side of things mostly, which is great, of course, but it's also limiting when it comes to talking about what needs to change.

Now, the body types, finally, are more based on instincts: meaning, sensations. We could think of this as the five senses. I'm not talking here about intuition, which would be the sixth sense, right? It's more like the five senses. And these people, who are the eights, nines, and ones on the Enneagram, tend to see the world through the lens of the viscera. It's like the belly and what I'm sensing is happening, what I'm smelling in the air.

So, these are people who tend to be very fast, especially to get into action. They jump to conclusions in a non-cognitive way just because of that sensorial impression that they develop. That leads them to have qualities like order. They tend to be very loyal, responsible, committed. And at the same time, they can be a bit judgmental at times. They have an issue to work on the emotion of anger—each of them in different ways.

Type eight, which is the first of the body types, is someone who puts anger mostly outside, which means that they sometimes explode. They can be too straightforward. They have the gift of transparency and sincerity, but people feel offended or judged a little at times.

Intimidated.

Intimidated, yeah, for the ways that eights communicate. And because they are frank but perhaps a bit excessively so. Eights in relationships, what you see is what you get. They are really transparent. But at the same time, they can be very harsh, and the other can get upset, and they have no idea that is happening.

One of the issues in relationships is that people think that the eight is coming from a bad intention when saying something in a harsh way. But for them, they're really just trying to be transparent, sincere, and they are doing the best for the relationship when doing so, and they don't notice the impact they have on others, and then a problem starts if that is not understood. And so then, an issue can happen. But it's good that they are very uncomplicated in a way. And when there is a talk about that, that helps a lot.

Now, type nine is the opposite of eight in the sense of not engaging in conflicts and trying to keep peace and harmony all the time. They're mediators, very natural mediators. They usually do this thing of listening to the other, paying attention to the other person's priorities first, but they lose their own agenda. They lose touch with themselves, and they self-forget.

So, what happens in relationships typically, is that the nine don't notice and don't voice their concerns in relationships, their frustrations, but without knowing they are accumulating frustration. And the other many times don't know this is happening because the nine looks very peaceful, and looks very calm most of the time. And then, that escalates, and the nine get a little passive-aggressive. You know where that can lead. You know better than us as the specialists in relationships, Jessica. So, this is a little bit of nine.

Last but not least, type one. Type one is the perfectionist on the Enneagram. That can be played out in different ways. It could be, “I am very self-critical, and I look for perfection in my house, and my processes, at work.” Or it could be like, “I tried to be the role model of perfection for others. And then, I don't allow myself to have my human flaws. That makes me rigid.” Or I can be more like seeking perfection in the partner. Meaning, I'll try to perfect the partner all the time. It can also be a little bit of a mix of all three things.

The thing is, ones tend to develop more rigidity. At the same time, they're super trustworthy. They're great in many ways, very committed. But they also have this tendency to be very tense and also judgmental because that's something for all body types.

Super powerful. Thank you both for being able to break that down so concisely. This is why I feel like it's such a gift to have this so well worked on your own. You've developed this so well that you're able to articulate it so clearly.

One of the things that I feel like is important to note and what I really appreciate about the Enneagram system is that there are so many layers. It's so much more complex than probably what we're speaking to at this moment. And one of the things that I appreciated was, it really describes where someone would go in stress and where someone would go in health, or I don't know if that's how you would describe it. And then, there are wings.

And so, I guess I'm wondering. Can you guys speak to this? Not to overwhelm this, but the second question I have is, for people listening, and perhaps this is their first exposure, how do you recommend people identify their type? I mean, I've had some coursework in this. And even as I listen to you guys describe, I'm pretty sure I know my type, but I still question. And so, I'm wondering. I think that's a common experience that people attempt to self-type and it's not as clear. And so, I'm wondering if you guys can help with that?

Sure. I would say as far as the typing issue, it is a process often for people to find their type and that there is a slight barrier to entry into the Enneagram because until you really find your type, you often don't see the incredible power of the system. Because when you find your type, it's like, “Wow!” It can be mind-blowing in terms of all it shows you about yourself that you may not have been completely aware of.

There are a lot of tests out there. A lot of people will Google and find Enneagram tests. That's fine, but it's really important to remember that a lot of the Enneagram tests out there are not very accurate. That's because it's just simply hard to develop a test that maps the complexity of the Enneagram through a self-report method.

The Enneagram highlights blind spots. So, when we're answering questions about ourselves, sometimes we're not completely reliable reporters because, for instance, sevens often don't realize they're avoiding pain. They just think they're looking at the positive side of things and good at reframing.

I think you can take a test, but see it as one piece of data that needs to be validated by your own sense of yourself. I think it's good to consult multiple methods, find a book that's authoritative. If you pick a test, there are podcasts and videos describing the nine types. But also ask people who know you really well for feedback when you're doing that because that gives you sort of an outside view.

We heard from a nine that was in one of our workshops. She said, “One of the nines' key characteristics is that they avoid conflict.” And when she read the description of what she thought might be your type, the nine, she said, “Well, I don't avoid conflict.” And her partner said, “Are you kidding? You avoid conflict constantly.”

So, there is a way that we need to make it a process of really the first stage of your self-learning process of reading the type, seeing if it fits for you, getting information from people you trust, and consulting maybe multiple sources of data. Don't really stop until it lands.

Now, of course, you can also find someone who does typing interviews who knows the system really, really well. But make sure they have really good credentials because it's easy to think that you are an expert in the Enneagram and not realize what you don't know because there's a lot to it.

Now, in terms of what you said about wings and arrows, that's a really important point. So, when you look at the Enneagram diagram, you'll notice it's a circle with a nine-pointed figure inscribed in the circle. Both the circle and the lines connecting the types within the diagrams are meaningful.

Now, some people in our opinion in the Enneagram world overemphasize the influence of wings on our main types, so they'll say something like, “Well, I'm a three with a four-wing.” When they say that, just know that they may be overemphasizing. We don't really emphasize the wings as part of the way you define your type.

You have a main type. And then, you have two wings, which are simply the types on either side of you around the circle. Those types may flavor your main type, and they can be additional sources of learning about your patterns. Also, there are lines within the circle that connect you to two other types. Each type is connected to two other types within these internal arrow lines, as we call them.

Now, both wings and these internally connected points are growth pathways. This is the most important thing. They offer ways of expanding outside the relatively limited perspective of your main type. Whenever we identify with one type, it's, by definition, a way that we limit our perception of the world without realizing we're limiting our perception because we're sort of doubling down on the lens through which we see the world because it worked and it helped us survive. We don't realize that we're limiting ourselves to a relatively narrow view of life.

And so, when we use our wings, so leaning into one wing and taking on the healthy qualities of that one or the other to expand our range of ways that we have of navigating in the world and meeting challenges, that helps us grow even more than that. We say the wing points are points of evolution. They're gentle growth stretches.

The internal arrow lines, it's like each point is connected to two other points that are in two different ways the perfect antidote for the problems and challenges of that type. For instance, I'm a two. My type two is connected to type four and type eight. Type four helps me grow as a two. I tend not to be very aware of my internal experience, my feelings, and my needs.

I'm more aware of other people's feelings and needs than I am of my own, but when I take on in a conscious way, in a conscious growth effort, the perspectives of or the qualities or attributes of the four, it's the perfect balancing out in one way. And that fours are really good at being more focused internally and knowing what they need and knowing how they feel and feeling that their emotions are valid. And as a two, I can think, “Well, my emotions are bad if they conflict with what someone else wants me to be.” Right? So, fours give twos permission to be more okay about their emotions.

And then, type eight is another kind of growth pathway. Uranio and I have a very clear theory about what arrow line to work on first for maximum growth. I won't go into that now. But then I can work on eight, and eight helps me. Eights are very focused on power and control. They're easy with their own authority. They're good at conflict, relatively. They're more in touch with their anger, all things that, as a two, really, really helped me grow in a big way. So, they're more radical growth stretches or their revolutionary growth movements. These are examples of the ways that Enneagram can help you map your growth.

Now, one last thing related to your question, and that is, when we're under stress, we can both become a more rigid version of our own type. So, that's the first thing. I can double down on some of my defensive strategies as a two when I get stressed. If someone's upset with me, I can get more pleasing. I can work harder to try to meet their needs and abandon myself. Or sometimes, when we're in a sort of more extreme stressful situation, we can do what we call “slide” to either one of these arrow line connected points and act out the low side of those points.

It's a little bit like under stress. These are sort of release valves. But because it's driven by stress and usually more unconscious, we go to the low side. But that's something to observe in ourselves. So I can act as a very unhealthy eight when I'm stressed and sort of exploding in anger in a way that I might not.

And so, again, it's something to not judge in ourselves because the Enneagram is all about self-observation and self-reflection without self-judgment. It's about learning to accept what you do and just know what you do so you can make more conscious growth choices to do things differently.

Thank you. So, so helpful. And there's so much richness and such a wealth of knowledge you both are offering today. I'm curious. Would you be willing to share with us, I know there are many things online, like a graphic, for people when they go to the show notes can just see a visual of what you're describing.

Sometimes you'll see Enneagram symbols without the arrows. And so, yeah, we'll provide you with a simple Enneagram diagram with the arrows in it so people can get a mental picture of what we're talking about.

I'm also thinking how helpful it would be to actually consult or go to a workshop to get some assistance and guidance. I remember I was working with a client. I was actually working with a couple, and I think that they had engaged in some professional development. They were using the Enneagram.

The report that she got was extensive for her type. It was like six developmental levels for her type and what it looks like and kind of what you're describing around a healthy version or a stressed version or underdeveloped version. And so, I can recognize how helpful it would be to get guidance. Is this something that you guys do in addition to your podcast and your books?

Yes, this is a lot of what we do in our Enneagram Academy. We offer retreats for people who want to apply the Enneagram to their personal growth journey. We have three retreats, and they're sort of in different levels of depth of working on yourself using the Enneagram as a lens. We also offer professional workshops where we train therapists, coaches, spiritual directors, leaders on how to use the Enneagram in a professional setting. If you're a practitioner and you use the Enneagram, you want to know it really thoroughly and understand all the dimensions of the system. We also train people to work with their clients with the Enneagram.

Right. And on top of our podcast named Enneagram 2.0, we have this new upcoming book here called the Enneagram Guide To Waking Up, which is a good reference for people to start their Enneagram journeys in a way that's not too complex, but it's also deep enough.

Lovely. I mean, if I'm hearing you both, there's so much capacity if you're in a field where you are leading or being of service to others that you could help use this system, or you could understand and get trained to use this system to help in that process.

You're also saying, for people listening, most likely how to apply to their relationship. I'm curious. Do you think that if they read a book or got some guidance or invested in a workshop, that as they get this insight, it doesn't have to be a deep forever study, but that it could give them a tremendous amount of value for being able to identify and perhaps continue to maintain some connection to, but it doesn't have to be something that's like a life study?

Because I know, sometimes I have clients that are like, “I don't eat right. I don't sleep right. I don't have sex right.” There are just so many personal growth support tools, and it can feel overwhelming of like, “Here's another thing that could improve my life. But I get a sense that it could add a lot of value with not a tremendous amount of study, is that right?

Yes, of course. I think you can always do whatever level of study feels right to you. But I do agree that when you learn enough about your type and your partner's type, you can actually do a lot without doing a really deep dive. But I do find that when people learn their type, they find that it's fun to talk about. They find that it's so illuminating. It's fun to study. So, it becomes something that's really empowering.

People get really motivated to learn more than something that might be a little more academic or serious. It offers so many insights that it can be something that really is exciting because all of a sudden, you understand something about your partner that you never saw before or yourself. So, I definitely think people can really use the Enneagram well and in a way that really helps them without becoming experts.

Yes. And I will say that I came across the Enneagram, I think probably in my master's program. And then, as I said, I took a couple of courses in my Ph.D. program. And there are a lot of personality assessment tools. I will say that I have found Enneagram continues to really hold a lot of value, and people continue to utilize it. It seems like it really stood the test of time.

Yeah. I mean, when I first learned it, I came across it by accident, just through a friend of mine's father, who was a psychiatrist. He had started one of the first Enneagram schools in the US. I hadn't studied psychology as an undergrad. I was in my 20s at the time. I had a little bit of disdain for psychology because it seemed to me it gave kind of jargony names to processes that were really obvious, so I wasn't really into it. But when I learned the Enneagram, it just shocked me because I never thought a typology could yield that much actionable information about myself. It took the lid off everything. It was like, “Wow!” One of the reasons why sometimes when I introduce the Enneagram, I at least mentioned the fact that it derives from ancient wisdom, we don't really know where it first came from, but we know it may be hundreds or thousands of years old, is because I think that gives us a hint to why it's so accurate and so deep.

Whereas with some typology, I find they kind of give you some interesting information about how you differ from others, and maybe at a behavioral or cognitive level but it doesn't provide all this deep information that it fits so well and is so accurate and powerful.

Yeah. I think that what we witnessed the most is people who get so enthusiastic about the Enneagram, especially if they are studying together with a partner or friend that we need to help them slow down. Although I totally get your very important point. And for that, it's important to give people the option of not making that the thing in their lives and to make a lifelong commitment.

What we see is that people have a lot of fun and that they get so curious about it that it becomes a beautiful path. But what we always suggest is that all self-observation, any inner development journey comes with a lot of self-acceptance and a lot of gentleness with self. That includes, in my view, studying a bit and then staying with it and taking it in and doing it together with a partner or friend. And then things will settle more easily. The growth will be more sustainable.

I know we're closing our time down together. Is there anything you want to say in closing?

I'm not sure I said this clearly before, but I just wanted to highlight that in my experience as a couple's therapist, I found this to be an incredibly helpful tool. There were some times when I had been working with a couple for a while. And then I introduced this and they opened up to it. They learned it. And the problems were solved very quickly after that.

A couple once told me like, “Why didn't you tell us about this before?” Because everything came clear, and things got resolved pretty quickly. I get a lot of positive feedback from couples around using this as a tool. I would just say, if you are investing time and interest in improving your relationships, this can be a powerful tool, whether it's in addition to something that you're already doing or something that you just start out playing with a little bit. I think it's particularly a powerful tool for using and improving relationships.

Yes. And if I may add one last point from my side. I think another thing that is great on the Enneagram, especially when working on relationships, is that people understand their reactive patterns and their biases in a way that they also can learn how to manage reactivity. That is so central to developing healthy relationships, isn't it?

Yes, it is very much that both of these things are incredibly valuable in the way of understanding self and understanding other and then how we co-create relationships together and our reactions and our growth process.

Thank you both so much for sharing your wisdom, your insight. I'll make sure to have the links that you guys have mentioned, also your website and any social media handles on today's show notes.

Thank you, Jessica.

Thank you for having us. It's been great to talk to you.

Signing Off

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