Podcast: Play in new window

Subscribe: RSS

Most of us are familiar with non-verbal communication being upwards of 80% of all communication and part of that is facial expressions.

In this episode, Dan Hill talks about his journey and 20 years of experience in facial decoding. Learn about the seven core emotions and how facial decoding can be a useful tool in navigating intimate relationships.

Dan Hill is an internationally recognized expert on the role of emotions and business, politics, sports, popular culture, and one’s personal relationships. Among his 9 books, is Famous Faces Decoded: A Guidebook for Reading Others, which uses celebrities’ examples to promote emotional literacy and the 23 facial expressions that reveal seven core emotions. Dan’s TV appearances have included ABC’s “Good Morning, America,” NBC’s “The Today Show,” CNN, Fox, MSNBC, and front-page coverage and the New York Times.

In this Episode 

4:18 How Dan Hill’s fascination with brain science led him to pioneering facial decoding in market research 20 years ago.

14:54 The 7 core emotions.

19:25 How facial decoding helps navigate intimate relationships.

30:11 Identifying contempt through facial expressions. 

32:27 The upside and downside of anger. 

39:25 About surprise and how this can be helpful in a relationship?

43:07 How fear or sadness can be fatal when it comes to communication.

46:38 What to do if you feel threatened.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Be conscious of your emotional experience. That gives us the ability to regulate it and relate to others in a more skillful way.
• Practice slowing down. If we are seeing a fight with our significant other, it is most likely really important for them and perhaps we should slow down to understand that.
• If you are serious about being in a relationship with someone, honor their belief system.
• Create some psychological safety for your partner if they feel threatened. Do not rush the conversation and overpower them.
• Learn about emotional intelligence to understand emotions and learn how to manage them.

Mentioned

Famous Faces Decoded: A Guidebook for Reading Others (*Amazon Link)

Dan Hill’s EQ Spotlight

Gottman Love Lab

Charles Darwin’s Theory of Evolution

Plutchik’s Color Wheel of Emotions

Tell all the truth but tell it to slant by Emily Dickinson

ERP 261: How to Strengthen Your Relationship from a Polyvagal Perspective, an Interview with Stephen Porges

Connect with Dan Hill

Website Sensory Logic

Facebook facebook.com/Emotionswizard/

Instagram instagram.com/emotionswizard/

LinkedIn linkedin.com/in/dan-hill-emotionswizard/

Twitter twitter.com/EmotionsWizard

Youtube channel Sensory Logic

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About Today’s Show

Dan, thank you for joining us today.

Oh, absolutely. I’m looking forward to the conversation, Jessica.

Yeah, me too. This is an unusual topic for us to be focusing on this podcast around addressing relationship and relationship concerns. And yet, the way that we are experiencing each other, right? I think most of us are familiar with nonverbal communication is in upwards of 80+ percent of communication and part of that is facial expressions. 

Also, that in an intimate relationship, the emotional bond, and the connection is so directly tied towards the emotional well-being of the couple and their way of relating to each other. So, we’re super excited to have you share your expertise in facial decoding. And for people who maybe don’t know you or are not familiar with this, can you share a little bit about what got you into looking at this?

Sure. In 1998 someone I knew, actually at IBM, sent over an article about the breakthroughs in brain science and how much we are sensory, emotional decision-makers. I don’t care whether it’s your personal life or your business life. Emotions really matter. 

I said, “This is fascinating stuff. It makes so much sense to me.” There was this killer statistic, which is that the conservative estimation is that at least 95% of our mental activity is not fully conscious. I’m like, “Wow! That just changes the whole game.” That means even in intimate relationships, we’re not always aware of how we’re feeling, or at least not at the moment. 

I went in search of a tool that would allow me to really explore this space better, more effectively. In my readings, I came across the fact that Charles Darwin, in his studies of evolution, essentially said to himself, “Why do we have emotions? They must have an adaptive advantage for us. They must allow us to move through these situations.” 

Darwin, as a result, started looking for ways in which he could reliably detect the emotions happening. And that proved to be the face that it’s the only place in the body where the muscles attach right to the skin. So, it’s quick real-time responses. Human beings also have more facial muscles than any other species on the planet. And it’s universal, even though the display rules in terms of intensity and duration, and certainly, what triggers the emotion can vary by culture. But there is this universe reality as well. And I just went, “Wow, that’s it.” That makes so much sense to me, and it’s really been exciting work. It’s been 20+ years that I’ve focused on facial coding.

We’re operating and responding to these types of cues, perhaps even without our full awareness. And so, it sounds like you’re bringing some of this to more conscious awareness. Is that right?

I am. I have a Ph.D. in English, so that’s the cosmic joke here that I specialized in words, and now I’ve moved over to nonverbals instead. But there’s probably a reason for it. I lived in Italy for two years when I was a boy. I didn’t know the language at first. I had to read nonverbal. I went to Italian first grade in a fishing village and waited all day for the math unit. Fortunately for me, Italians have a lot of body language. But the problem with body language can be that it can be affected by gender and by culture. You can also fake those expressions better. That’s why I like the face so much. 

Okay. So, this is super off-topic, but I am curious. Are you finding that plastic surgery is interfering with any of these facial cues?

Sure. I’m going to take that on two levels. One is Botox because, in facial expression language, you have what is called action units, which are muscle activities. There are 23 that show seven different emotions, which are happiness and surprise, as well as anger, fear, sadness, disgust, and contempt. 

Where Botox injections happen will typically dampen a little bit of the sadness in the face and can take the true smile opportunities away because you need the muscle around the eye to relax and get the twinkle in the eye. And kind of that larger canvas around the eye can be affected a bit. But Botox, because you have 23 expressions, is certainly not fatal. Not in the way that plastic surgery can be. If it’s substantial, if it’s done repeatedly, unfortunately, if it’s botched, that can really cause the face to cease to animate in ways that are natural. And that could be anything from Michael Jackson to a whole bunch of people I could probably name from Hollywood.

Okay. Well, it is of interest to me because I actually have worked with clients, and I remember reflecting, some people are much more able to identify who’s done work, and I’m not as interested in that. But when I am trying to empathize with someone, and I’m having a difficult time seeing it on their face, I later reflect, and I’m like, “Oh, their face doesn’t move. Maybe they’ve had something done.” And sure enough, the more that I see, I was like, “Okay, I see.” So, it does, I think, perhaps interfere with some of these communication channels. What do you think?

Oh, absolutely. I can’t summon her name at the moment, but there was a famous female comedian on the Celebrity Apprentice. Her words were all hot and bothered, and the face wasn’t moving at all. It was in utter disconnect. And you’re right to be sensitive to these moments because one of the things I’ve done in life, and I cease doing it because it’s too dispiriting regarding human nature, as I’d be on some TV shows regarding criminals. 

Some of the criminals, I remember someone in Chicago particularly. He had been through, I think, three wives. He probably murdered them all. He just did not emote very much. He did not care about other people. And when he did say something and showed an expression, it was often what I call being off emotion. It wasn’t appropriate. He would smile a little bit ruefully, almost even with some condescension regarding the mishaps of his former wives. It just gave me a chill, an utter chill.

Well, that brings me to just this wondering. I know we’re going to tailor our conversation to intimate personal relationships, but you’re also saying this is operating at all times. And so, the application of this sounds like you work with people in various sectors. Is that right?

Oh my God, yes. I have even worked on the Mexican presidential race, giving feedback to the candidate who won regarding how people responded to the stump speech, to his emoting, how the debate went. I’ve been on the front page of The New York Times for using this in sports to try to help with draft choices and trades and team chemistry. I’ve used it in business to observe focus groups. 

Emotions go everywhere. In fact, someone once said that there are only two currencies—dollars and emotions. And so, I’ve trafficked in both, but I’m wearing a suit in the emotions. It’s brought me a decent living, but I’m really fascinated by EQ and its value in our lives.

When you’re consulting with various organizations in different sectors, do the goals vary? It sounds like sometimes it’s trying to find the right fit. Sometimes it’s trying to communicate a sense of congruency with the message and the demeanor and the facial expressions. Do the goals change depending on who you’re working with?

Oh, sure. I mean, I’m not trying to Frankenstein someone into being someone that they’re not. They have to be willing to get there. I can tell them reliably what they’re feeling. And then, we can look at the context and their goals for being effective and happy in life. 

I’ll give you one quick instance. It was for the CEO of a very important large insurance company. I will share a video from the meeting with employees. Well, when you’re a leader, you need followers. You need them to come along with you and believe in you, care about you. And far too often on his face, he was showing the two aversive emotions of disgust and contempt, which basically means you’re backing off from them. So, the same moment you’re asking your employees to follow you, you are on your face backing off from them. That’s a disconnect. 

He took it to heart. And again, I wasn’t trying to Frankenstein him, but I was really impressed when we looked at the subsequent video. That wasn’t gone, but it was diminished. I believe based on what he was trying to do, and even his nature, because he was often a very good person. I just think sometimes the staginess of having to be the CEO made him almost uncomfortable with himself. And that was part of the aversive reaction. So, he was able to kind of punch through and get there. But yes, situations will be different, leading to different kinds of advice.

I appreciate that example. And it really does lend to relationships because a lot of the time when I’m working with couples, some of the languages that I’m working with is what your partner is seeing on the outside perhaps is very different than what’s happening on the inside. Oftentimes in human relationships, we have learned to protect ourselves. And so, perhaps those protective strategies are what is visible, and that’s on the outside. But what’s happening on the inside is more vulnerable, tender, and like you’re saying, maybe even good-natured and most likely good-natured, and the deeper kind of parts of ourselves. And so, I think what you’re really helping people recognize is maybe without even knowing it, there might be some of these protective things or things that they’re displaying that aren’t in alignment with their intention.

Yeah, I’ll give you an example from where I think you’re headed with that comment. We might have a scowl on our faces. For instance, our eyebrows may knit together and lower, which can show other emotions, potentially, like sadness and fear. But very often, it’s a matter of being confused or concentrating so it’s kind of more in the realm of anger. 

So, imagine you’re in a personal conversation, and maybe there’s a bit of a dispute going on. You’re showing this focus, and this confusion because you are wondering what the other partner is saying, and maybe you’re even, frankly, a bit angry because you think you’re not going to get what you want. But I suspect deep down what might really be going on is fear, the fear that this relationship is not as strong as you want it to be, that you don’t feel like that person’s there for you as much as you would hope they would be, fear that they’re not going to understand what you’re asking for or are seeing it as valid even. 

And so, yes, I think that one of the important things to remember about emotions is that almost every emotion has an upside and a downside to them. But also, we often feel more than one emotion at a time. We’re not just stereotypically moving from one emotion to that another emotion and then to another emotion. There are blends happening quite often.

And that’s why you’re saying there are seven core emotions that you work with. Happiness, surprise, anger, fear, sadness, disgust, and contempt. And although our actual lived experience might be some hybrid or combination or blending. 

Yup.

Okay. What are you seeing that are more prevalent? It sounds like you’re helping people recognize there are some more prominent emotions.

Sure. I mean, I made it both by over 20 years of market research for more than half the world’s top companies and over something like 35 countries, as well, I wrote a book called Famous Faces Decoded, where I looked at celebrities taken from various fields. All that data lined up. There are other seven emotions that you just mentioned back to me. There are really two that, on average, predominate for people. And that is happiness and anger. They are both approach emotions but vastly different, of course. 

In essence, I would say that happiness is to hug somebody, to approach them, to embrace them, to accept them. Anger, if I chose one word, would be to hit or to hit out. Typically, you want to make progress. You don’t feel in control of your circumstances, situations like that. So, in both cases, you’re approaching but for very different reasons. That’s the predominance of the emotional pie. But there are some other slices, and that’s where those other emotions come in. They’re obviously typically less, but there are exceptions. 

Contempt is usually maybe, I’d say, five to eight percent of most people’s emoting, somewhere in that range. Just occasionally, Bill Gates comes to mind. It can be more like 15-20%. He’s very rich, and he’s very smart. Is there a possibility he looks down on people? Whether he knows it consciously or not, I think it’s certainly possible.

Does this relate to what you see that is most concerned in a relationship as far as emotion?

Well, happiness is not a trivial emotion. Thank God it’s one of the two major ones that give me some hope for humanity. Certainly, on a daily basis. I mean, happiness is so vital to a couple because the research shows that when you are happy, it’s contagious. It’s very contagious. Laughter is very contagious. For instance, joyful laughter. It allows you to brainstorm solutions, both more quickly and to arrive at superior outcomes. That’s how, as a couple, you really build win-win outcomes if there are differing agendas or priorities going on for someone. So, it just creates possibilities. I mean, it is kind of like a welcome sign.

Absolutely. And if I can just chime in an example, as you’re commenting, I can feel and remember and reflect on my own interactions. Even just a moment ago, you were saying about someone perhaps furrowing their brow. I’ve been on the receiving end where I’m talking, and the listeners, not in my client settings, but more just personally in there, have this look. It’s actually hard to relate because I’m like, why are you scowling? And so, it’s so fascinating to me. 

Coming back to the example I wanted to reference, there are definitely times where my husband can be, I wouldn’t say, pensive, but he can be very much caught in thought and sometimes serious. And there have been times where I’ve been very explicit and just even asked him to smile. “Smile at me.” Or like, you know, I’m really trying to invite this sense of happiness or this facial smile. It is so important for that connecting.

Yeah, it allows for flow. I mean, I can really relate to what you just said. I was smiling as you said it because I had a very dear friend, a smart guy, very ethical, very considerate, very thoughtful. But the conversations were exhausting sometimes. I used to joke and say, “Paul, you’re not an open book. You’re an open trilogy.” Because he would really be pondering everything I said and really weighing it and evaluating. And so, I was being taken seriously, which is great. But it was very serious. And unrelenting seriousness, at least for me, that keeps going hour after hour in a conversation. Yeah, that gets a little draining.

As you’re looking at intimate relationships, what are you seeing as a goal in utilizing face decoding?

Well, I think one of the most fascinating studies done involving marriages and facial expressions comes from the Love Lab at the University of Washington, Seattle. This is noted in Malcolm Gladwell’s famous book Blink, where John Gottman, the noted marriage counselor, in his Love Lab uses facial coding and with nearly 15 minutes of videotapes face decoded and 90% accuracy rate if the couple will stay married. Ninety percent. 

We’ve used facial coding, by the way, in speed dating. And we found a 100% correlation between what they showed in their face, whether or not they wanted a second conversation with the other party. But let’s stick with contempt because it’s such an important and kind of unusual emotion. In some ways, I almost hesitate to call it an emotion because it’s very attitudinal. Very often, we get to contempt over time. It’s not our immediate reaction to someone saying something that we think is maybe a lie or doesn’t make us comfortable. We might show disgust or kind of be reflecting on it. Contempt eventually really is a verdict that I don’t trust you, I don’t respect you. And I find you beneath me. 

In a relationship, I would compare it to, you know, I live in a house that has two floors to it. So, if I’m down doing the laundry, and my wife’s up in the kitchen, and she yells something down to me or vice versa, it’s really hard for us to hear each other the way our house is built. You just can’t have a good conversation. Likewise, if one party feels contempt for the other, you’re not on the same level. So, that communication gets really difficult, in part because you’re now discounting what the other person is saying. 

And now you have to try to put that back together because the opposite of contempt is trust, and trust matters hugely. It’s where you give forgiveness. Someone screwed up, but if you don’t feel contempt for them, you say they’re human. I’m human. We make mistakes. If, on the other hand, they make a mistake, and you have a fair measure of contempt for the person, then you might make no allowances for it. You make the “always” or “never” comments. “You always do that.” “You never listened to me.” And the verdict gets rendered, and it’s kind of you’re the hanging judge verdict at that. 

How would the facial decoding and the work that you do assist people? Because it sounds like one way of looking at this would be the facial expressions is perhaps a signal as to what the person’s feeling. And as we just said a moment ago, sometimes that’s not entirely accurate. What we show on the outside isn’t always congruent with what’s happening on the inside. So, in the work that you’re doing, what are you hoping that people will be able to do differently or accomplish with this information?

I would say in relation to relationships, probably two things. First and foremost, one is to be more adaptive and more sensitive in the moment. If you go back to emotional intelligence, and I’ve been fortunate enough to interact with John Mayer, one of the three founders. He would argue that emotional intelligence gives you about a six percent advantage in trying to handle situations. Six percent might sound small, but I happen to be an avid tennis player. I know from the studies that John McEnroe, Roger Federer, or Serena Williams, anybody, tend to win about 53% of their matches when they’re number one in the world. Just 53%. So, a six percent advantage is really huge. And emotional intelligence really isn’t a chain that I perceive emotions, including my own. So facial coding is not so helpful there unless you’re in front of a mirror. 

Second, I understand what these emotions are about, what’s really important. And therefore, third, I can move on to managing the emotions. So, my number one thing is to hope that this as a tool, and the learnings can help someone in the moment of those conversations, those moments of truth that a marriage relationship might have that you can see what’s going on and pivot, react, respond, you know, certainly not just be the proverbial brick wall. But actually, you know, join in that conversation. 

I would at times also say that there’s a secondary thing, which is over time, we have patterns. We’re very habitual creatures, human beings. As the writer George Orwell said, by the age of 50, a man has the face he deserves. The same could be probably said of a woman. And what I mean by that is, we have muscle memory. We have certain emotive patterns that tend to happen for us over time. So, you know, this might be useful in detecting the front end of a relationship. Is this a relationship I want to nurture and deepen? Or do I get a sense that this person’s emotional patterns aren’t really a good fit for me? It could be much further into the relationship. 

I’ll give you one that I cited this person in Chicago earlier, but these kinds of situations always give you the chills. Someone who’s physically and emotionally abusive. They might make it up and give the sweet-talking words at some point. But is it possible that even in conveying those words, there’s still a lot of disgust, for instance, you know, kind of a poisonous reaction? You taste bad. You smell bad, metaphorically speaking. This relationship is bad for me. It’s poisonous. They’re angrier than they’re letting on, for instance. Those are really both visceral, strong emotions that are not very empathetic, typically. And maybe those signals just tell you’re hanging on to something you shouldn’t hang on to.

No kidding. And I think a lot of people get super confused in the dating realm and trying to reconcile content with maybe cues that they’re getting, and then maybe even this term of gaslighting. It’s whatever feels true, and it sounds like what you’re really advocating for is that facial expressions are a really trusted signal. And also, to be conscious of it. So perhaps that we can use it as super valuable information. 

And then, as you were talking just a moment ago, one of the things that were coming up for me was just being conscious of it. Because when we can start to be conscious of our emotional experience, that gives us that much more ability to start organizing it, dealing with it, regulating it, and relating to others in a more skillful way. 

And then just even also, if it’s more conscious, and there’s even language in the couple dynamic that that could be used as constructive information. I don’t know if this would even fall into that, but I know that there have been times where my husband will comment on something he’s seeing in me, and probably my facial expressions. I’m not even aware of it. 

And so, if he brings it up to my attention, luckily, I’m grateful we have a safe enough relationship that I don’t feel that is offensive, or I don’t feel I take issue with that. And it’s more of an inquiry around, “Well, okay, there’s truth to what you’re saying. I trust you.” And like you said, Trust is such a huge component. And then, it brings an opportunity for reflection so that I can connect with my emotions and then be able to talk about that with him. 

And, you know, it does bring to mind even the polyvagal and Steven Porges’ work in the polyvagal theory around just how our nervous system responds to threats. We’re always co-regulating in relationships. So we’re picking up on the facial expressions, the tone of voice, and also even breathing rate. And so, when we recognize something’s off in couplehood, we’re going to notice. Right? And so, this is happening at all times. And if we’re not conscious of it, we can just be reacting. And perhaps what you’re saying is the facial expressions can be a really good source of information to be conscious of to then evolve or up-level this emotional intelligence.

Oh, yes. I very much agree. I’ll match you on the personal front a little bit. So my wife, for instance, has what I call a signature expression. It’s actually two muscle movements that signal emotions that don’t often go together. I saw it on the very first date. It is a very frequent expression of hers now that I know her so much better and know the family history and upbringing and parenting style that she experienced. It makes a lot of sense to me. It certainly helps create empathy. But it’s important for me to keep that in mind in the conversations because based on how she was raised, there can be a fear for her sometimes that she’s not going to get what she thinks is a legitimate emotional need addressed. And so, my goal is to help reduce the stress and say that I am here to listen and to respond and do try to be emotionally literate so we can approach this more calmly. My hope is that that is good for our conversations and good for her.

Wow, I so appreciate that that’s something you’ve recognized in your wife from perhaps even day one. And that as you’ve gotten to know her, you’re also learning how to show up for her and how to care for her and this attentiveness or this responsiveness emotionally that that’s a signal. The content almost doesn’t matter, right? It’s just this responsiveness and ability to turn towards her that these facial cues signal you to, is that right? 

It is right, and there’s actually one other element to it. I have never told anyone what the expression is. I think it was the third day we were playing mixed doubles. We went out with the other couple afterward. Knowing my profession, they asked me very poignantly what I saw on her face. I stayed rather generic and did not divulge this expression. She told me later that was the moment she realized she would commit to the relationship because she could trust me that I would keep something that she wanted private, private. I’ve always done so despite the fact that I’ve been asked on more than one occasion what that expression is.

That’s beautiful. Thank you for sharing that. 

Sure. 

Okay. So, when you mentioned contempt, I’m assuming that’s one of the most concerning emotions. I know John Gottman in the Gottman Institute really talks about that’s the most dangerous sign of the well-being of the relationship. What would you recommend people do if there’s contempt being identified through the facial expressions? I mean, one thought that I’m having is like, that could be an opportunity to then really work with what’s going on, and kind of unpack it and bring it to light. Help me with what you would recommend.

It’s very difficult because it’s something that people very often will arrive at as a judgment over time, so it starts to get baked in. People often don’t like to change their minds once they’ve arrived at a verdict. I would probably first go back to a wonderful comment from the poet, Emily Dickinson, who said, “Tell the truth but tell it to slant, lest everyone go blind.” 

And I say that because I’m not sure you can tackle it directly. I would love just to be efficient and say, you know, I’m seeing a lot of contempt on your face toward me. I don’t think it’s really warranted, but obviously, you do, and why is that the case? And, you know, please defend yourself. That would be the wonderful quick, direct route there, but I’m not sure that’s what would work, so it becomes tricky. I guess to lower the stakes for the other party, so it doesn’t seem like it’s an all-out war they’re validating and arriving at. I’d probably try to choose one instance, probably show some patience, and wait for an instance where it showed up. And maybe tackle that one moment, particularly that one moment is one you think there’s actually a misunderstanding verbally between the parties. And once they know that, it would have caused to go away, that the smirk would go away so that it’s a moment where the verdicts, so to speak, can be overturned readily without a lot of anguish and tussle over it. So, I think I’d play for the small poker stakes first rather than go for the whole hand, the whole pot of money, just because it is such a difficult emotion.

And is there anything you want to say about anger? You talked about the underlying motivations and what you might say around this as it relates to relationships.

As I said earlier, every emotion has an upside and a downside. Obviously, anger that’s out of control or habitual will make you not feel safe physically, psychologically. It can create a lot of trauma for you. That’s all a very legitimate response to being subjected to anger. Do I think there’s an upside to anger? Yeah, in a couple of different ways. 

One is I said that someone wants to make progress. They have a goal. They have something they want to get to. So, knowing what the goals are, what the motivations are for your partner, that’s a valuable way to get an insight into them. Because our emotions turn on when something matters to us. And so, if the anger turns on, frequently over something where maybe there’s a different procedure as to how you want to get something done. 

For instance, when my wife and I go on vacation, if I say eight o’clock, I mean, I kind of want to leave right at eight o’clock. And sometimes it’s her, on the other hand, who wants to do that, but we both learned to give allowances and say, who’s dying from this? What’s wrong with 08:05? If you want to use the bathroom one last time, if you got something you want to bring along and it’s in the fridge, you know, let’s not get perturbed at the other party.

 The other aspect of this, though, I think, is really profound for relationships beyond just those kinds of more tactical moments is your belief system because there’s really no backing up from it. It’s who you are. It’s what you believe in. You’ve arrived at it over time. It’s the constellation of heroes in your life and why they’re heroes to you. So, your belief system is kind of your North Star. If that belief system is being challenged, that’s another way of getting at, not in this case, motivations, but yeah, what is that value system? 

In my wife’s case, I know that she’s a very good person. If she uses the word fair or unfair in a conversation, if she brings that term into the conversation, then it’s going to be a deeper, more profound conversation. I need to settle in because there’s something that makes it feel like it’s not equal, or she’s being taken for granted, or assumptions are being made. And maybe they’re not being made, but I haven’t communicated myself well, or maybe they are being made, and I’m at fault, and I need to apologize given the opportunity. But yes, who they are, what are their goals, what are their beliefs? I think that’s really one of the two ways in which anger can work as a wonderful radar system for understanding the person you’re in a relationship with.

I know that this is an example of reference, and I’ve used it before, but what you’re speaking to reminds me of the scene in Braveheart with Mel Gibson. They’re on the top of the mountain, and they’re about to go into battle. They’re really fighting for freedom. This conviction around this value that matters so much and we’re willing to fight for, and obviously, anger is really closely related to that fight. And so, when you’re saying if we are seeing a fight in our significant other, likely there’s something there that really matters and is super significant, and perhaps can we slow it down to really understand that?

And honor that belief of theirs because if you are serious about being in a relationship with a person, and that’s their value system, hopefully, you’re congruent for that because it’s not going to change them most likely.

I’m curious what you would say because I know that there are different professionals who speak about anger differently, meaning that some people will believe anger is a secondary emotion or can be a secondary emotion. I don’t know. Have you heard that?

I’m a little stunned that anyone would think it’s a secondary emotion. You can use different terms for it. Some people might say outrage or indignation, or annoyance or irritation. But if I look at almost any chart of so-called core common, basic emotions, I can’t think of a case where I’ve seen anger, not in that constellation. 

Contempt, I would agree, is actually a secondary emotion. If you look at Plutchik’s Color Wheel of Emotions, that’s not one of the primary emotions that are colored in that wheel. I have my own slight take on where contempt fits in what I can show sometimes, but no. If you got them, I’m happy to listen to the argument as to why it’s not a central emotion. I admit to being very surprised.

Well, okay, so I actually have at times really oriented towards this philosophy. And what I have seen is, and I’ll just use one simple example. It’s grossly stereotyping gender. But sometimes men will access emotion of anger as that’s the more appropriate emotion where sometimes they’re scared, or if you’re driving, and you’re flipping somebody off because they cut you off. Oftentimes, what’s underneath that is “I’m scared. You almost hit me.” Right? And so, instead of feeling the fear, it’s the anger in response to try to protect.

Oh, no, I would totally agree with that. There’s a lot of ironies involving emotions and men. One of them is that men don’t think they’re emotional. And then you watch them watching a sports event, and you go, “Yeah, right.” 

Another one is that men supposedly don’t feel fear. Of course, they do. They’re human beings. Again, I’m a tennis player. Boris Becker, the famous German tennis player, once said, “I don’t remember any points I won at Wimbledon. I only remember the fear of losing.” 

And yes, very often, I do think particularly for guys, like me, for women as well. Anger becomes, in some ways, a bit of a mask. I’ll even go to the example you just gave because I agree that they can be afraid that actually, they’re going to get hit by the other driver. But maybe even they feel like they’re wondering about their self-esteem that, you know, I’m not the kind of person who someone would feel like they could trample on or show disrespect for, that I don’t seem strong enough, valid enough, whatever the case may be. So, that could be an underlying fear. 

I mean, again, I think emotions are multifaceted. They interact with one another. The idea that we just plop one down, and that’s our emotion in this moment or for this duration or whatever that’s ridiculously simplistic.

Well, and it’s helpful for categorization and research, and you know, to be able to simplify and in real life, they seem much more complicated. Okay. 

Yeah, yeah, agreed. 

Okay. So, as it relates to the wow reaction, do you want to speak about what’s happening here and how this can even be helpful in a relationship?

Some of these things are so basic it’s almost laughable. Some of the ways you show disgust, for instance, is your nose wrinkles. Well, you know, something smells bad. We were probably oriented from way back on the savanna with our ancestors that if you approached the watering hole and it, it stunk, that wasn’t a good idea to drink that water. So, a wrinkled nose is almost a way of saving yourself. 

I think it’s very similar to surprise if you think about it. A couple of really reliable signals for surprise is your eyes go wide. Also, your eyebrows might lift because you’re, in effect, increasing your field of vision. As human beings, we don’t necessarily welcome surprises. In a business setting, I can’t tell you how many times I will say before a meeting, “No surprises, please.” Because surprise means you have to make an adjustment, you have to exert energy. Maybe an opportunity has arisen. But maybe also a problem, a challenge, a difficulty has arisen. 

Human beings work out like housecats. We don’t like to waste energy if we don’t have to. The brain is, as you would well know, 3% of our body mass. It consumes 20% of our calories. So, we’d like to lessen that metabolic offload of calories and think less, react less, move less. Surprise is telling us no. In fact, you need to have wide-open eyes because I got to pay attention to what just changed in my landscape. 

If you’re in a relationship for long enough, you would think there won’t be a lot of surprises. You think you’ve probably heard most of your spouse’s anecdotal stories. Maybe more than once over dinner, you know, those kinds of things. But a surprise is a moment to orient and pay attention. It is very definitely a moment to play detective.

And also just seeing with new eyes, right? The beginner’s mind, so to speak. Our partner is growing and evolving every day. And so, while it might be efficient and natural and human of us to assume that we know that perhaps we want to continue to cultivate some of that wow, or that surprise, and just being in a state of curiosity still.

Sure. Well, I would say a surprise in a while we’re different because their wow should be happiness entering the equation. Surprise and fear show very similarly on the face. Because I think again, the adaptive rigor of adjusting to the surprise, we might wonder whether we’re up to it. So, it’s not surprising to me that surprise and fear shown similarly on the face. 

A wow means you brought happiness in. And so, now you’re really in the land of delight, for instance. In a relationship, yes, you brought me a gift. Even though we’ve been dating for a long time, you surprised me with a gift. You’re going to change your routine. I know you love to do this or that on this day at this time, but I have an idea that we could do something, and you’re surprising me by dropping your routine and going with the flow to go with what I want. Those are all really nice conducive things, obviously, for a relationship. 

Yeah. And it ties back to what you were saying earlier, just that flow and being able to have this mutual exchange of happiness and what gets created in the bond.

Yeah, we all need emotional glue. I mean, life got its stresses, and the same is true for relationships, obviously.

Well, I know you had a point between fear and sadness and how one of those emotions can be more fatal when it comes to communicating well. Is there anything you would like to say around that?

Well, fear tends to make us want to freeze. Maybe we’ll fight, but we’ll freeze almost for sure. And we may then decide we’re going to take flight and try to escape the situation. From what I’ve just described, none of those options, fight, freeze, or flight is very conducive to communication. We don’t tend to take any information well in a fearful state. I can think of, for instance, coaching or giving advice to an NBA team. And their star player showed about twice as much fear as is what is normative. And it really played out because he was the star of the team, but the practice sessions were almost worthless. This person showed fear, even in practice. It wasn’t just game day. He did not tend to assimilate well the information being imparted by the head coach, assistant coaches, are even teammates. And so, they go through the drills, and the team wasn’t getting any better in the drills that the player individually could play well, but you know, basketball happens to be a team sport, just like relationships are. That wasn’t that person’s forte.

Well, this is so analogous to couples who spend hours and hours and hours on talking and perhaps don’t resolve anything because they’re in that triggered activated state and aren’t really regulated or thinking with their prefrontal cortex. So, I guess I’m hoping that you might be able to help people. I mean, fear is such a basic emotion, and we feel like we’d be able to recognize it, and yet, people can mask it sometimes. I know the facial expressions aren’t as easily masked. How do you help people identify, with facial expressions, what fear might look like?

Well, there’s a lot of overlap with surprise. But you know you’re in that territory already. And then the most reliable sign that it’s just pure fear is the mouth will pull wide in kind of an egad expression. For instance, in my book, Famous Faces Decoded, someone that caught me by surprise for showing fear was Natalie Portman. I mean, after all, given her starring movie roles, her education at Harvard, why in the world would Natalie Portman be so given to fear? 

When I started reading Rolling Stone interviews and other places about her, it sort of potentially clicked into place. Her parents were pretty demanding. She was the only child in the room often, but the conversation was held at a very adult level. They had high expectations for her. My guests, if I had to testify in court, would be that there’s a sense of what she just feels like she can never match up to their hopes and expectations for her, no matter how good she is. So, it becomes a self-esteem issue. 

I think that we can probably have some recognition that we’re fearful. We may not really realize the depth of it and the persistence of it. We may not realize when it deepens at certain moments, certain comments that might trigger it, certain situations for us. Over time, I would hope there’s some, at least deep awareness of fear, but you know, you don’t always know. I mean, again, guys sometimes think that they don’t feel any fear, which is kind of inadvertently humorous.

And what would you recommend if fear is seen in the face and a dynamic between a couple?

Well, if you feel threatened. I guess to sort of speak, talk them off the ledge, you need to try to create some psychological safety for them. I think that’s the most important thing to get to signal that you’re not going to rush the conversation. You’re not going to ignore or overpower them. You’re going to take part in it. And whatever time that takes, whatever resources that takes, because I think fear is pretty analogous to survival. I mean, it’s that basic. It’s that important. So, you can’t rush fear. I think sometimes it makes us uncomfortable, and so we just want to get past it. I don’t think in a relationship, you can do that.

No. And what you said about safety and being an ally, that’s so critical to help calm the nervous system and get back to regulation and feel safe to then communicate. 

Yeah. 

Yeah. All right, Dan. Well, I know we’re closing in on our time together. Is there anything you want to say that we haven’t really touched on about facial decoding and what you would like people to know today?

I think we’ve gotten to pretty much all the emotions, except we haven’t much-discussed sadness. So, I don’t want to take a lot of time on it. But you know, sometimes I get a little annoyed because people undervalue sadness. We have the song Diddy, just be happy. We kind of put people down and say they’re a sad sack. I mean, I’ve separated this from depression, which is its own significant issue. But sadness is periodically felt in response to a situation. As opposed to mood or depression, it’s useful to us. I think, from an adaptive point of view.

To me, sadness can slow us down physically, even maybe mentally, for a bit. But isn’t it possible that’s nature’s way of saying you just experienced a downturn, a problem, a mistake, and don’t rush into the next problem? I think it could be. You could also show that you’re willing to ponder things in that slowness. And so, yes, if it’s given in to all the time, if you just go into a fetal curl, and you’re not responsive to others, obviously, that creates its own stresses. But you know, sadness is an approach emotion. It’s very different than happiness and anger, the hug-and-hit, in that it’s the longing to be hugged. So, it’s a very empathetic emotion. It’s an emotion that offers contemplation and pondering. I don’t like to see that emotion derided. I think it has real value and has to be honored in a relationship, just like any other emotion.

Thank you for naming that. I can just feel the importance of just that contemplative, reflective, and feeling and also just the cue of feeling supported and soothed and comforted in these moments and how that can also be really important for intimacy.

Yeah, no, absolutely. And that longing to be hugged is that chance for intimacy in part. I mean, you know, approach me. I am maybe not be approaching you, but I want to be approached. I’m in that realm. I mean, some psychologists wouldn’t consider it an approach emotion. I don’t think it’s the same as the other two. It’s not an active approach emotion, but it’s still a longing for bonding and for a union.

Well, this is such a wealth of knowledge and insight and things to think about. I know you have books that people can learn more about. What would you like to direct people towards if they want to get to know your work a little bit more? 

Sure. I think the most instrumental book, in this case, would be my book called Famous Faces Decoded that I alluded to a couple of times. Because I do have the celebrity stories, which kind of makes it easy learning and things you can relate to. But it really operates on two additional levels. One is to help propagate emotional intelligence. And it really goes through the emotions and what they mean. So, I’m trying to hit that middle level of the sequence where you perceive emotions, understand emotions, and then can manage emotions on the most intense level, but you know, it’s only 23 expressions. Perceiving emotions is the first step in that EQ process. And so, I deliver that as well. 

I think that’s really the appropriate book. It’s certainly on Amazon. It can be ordered off my website, which is my company’s website, the obligatory three W’s, then my company is called sensory logic dot com, as in your five senses. (www.SensoryLogic.com) So, anyone could find that in either of those two places. 

I also have a podcast called Dan Hill’s EQ Spotlight. It’s on the New Books Network, which is the world’s largest book review platform. It gets about 1,000,007 downloads a month, started by a Harvard Russian studies professor who left his tenure track position to find a new way to share learnings with people in the world. Wonderful person, by the way. And so, I have an author on every week. That’s another way to pick up insights and so forth.

Wow, that sounds powerful. I would love to have that link to that podcast, so I can put it on today’s show notes. And then, is there anything that you offer on the sensory logic website that you want to mention before we sign off?

Not necessarily. I mean, I have a lot of other books, some other content there. I have speeches if people want to go to those. So yeah, I tried to put a range of the ways in which I’ve applied facial coding and EQ. But I think for listeners, I think the Famous Faces Decoded, furthered by the podcast, really be kind of the one-two punch.

Perfect. Well, I’ll make sure to have those links on today’s show notes for your book, Famous Faces Decoded, as well as the podcast. And, Dan, thank you for sharing your valuable time with us here today.

Absolutely, Jessica. It was a good conversation. Thank you for your thoughtful questions. And thank you in turn for sharing details from your life and circumstances and your thinking on these matters.

Signing Off

If you have a topic you would like me to discuss, please contact me by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon, if you purchase the book from this link.