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How do couples draw the line between business and romantic relationships?

Managing a business is a powerful force that can take over the family in so many ways and have a significant impact on the marriage. It's a lot to take in and simply unavoidable.

Unlike couples who are not negotiating business, it is critical to provide additional support to couples who are doing business and building a relationship under the same roof.  

In this episode, we'll talk about entrepreneur couples and what they're up against. Dr. Ellyn Bader shares some real-life examples as well as some tools to help navigate these challenges.

Dr. Ellyn Bader is a psychotherapist and one of the early founders of couples therapy, as well as a recognized thought leader and trailblazer in relationship therapy worldwide. 

Through her informal research and thousands of sessions, Ellyn co-created the Developmental Model, a revolutionary approach to couples therapy that is highly adaptable to the complex needs of two people growing, changing, and staying connected in a relationship.

In this Episode 

5:37 Ellyn talks about the first-hand experiences that inspired her to help couples negotiate business and couplehood.

8:09 How to manage couple-time that is off-limits for business talk.

13:14 Six skills for living, loving, and working together:

14:46 Commitment.

19:38 Appreciation.

25:17 Negotiation.

32:34 Decision Making.

44:06 Where to find more information on Ownership and Roles with authority.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Spend some time alone together to bond and connect where it's off-limits for business talk. 
• Keep in mind that your partner is an essential part of both your personal and professional life, so take a moment to thank and appreciate them.
• Life's challenges are unavoidable, so instead of pretending they don't exist, learn how to overcome them.
• Pause and think how committed each of you is to your marriage and business.
• Understand how to negotiate in such a way that it benefits both of you.
• Learn how to communicate effectively, how to stand up for what is important, and why it is important to your partner.
• Find tools and develop skills to support your negotiation.

Mentioned

Peter Pearson, Ph.D., Emeritus

The Daily Double 30-Day Challenge

The CANDOR Solution: The Entrepreneur’s Marriage Blueprint

Couples as a Team

The Developmental Model

Entrepreneurs Marriage Intensive

Connect with Dr. Ellyn Bader

The Couples Institute website

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About Today's Show

Ellyn, thank you for joining us today. 

You're welcome. Happy to be here. 

I have been a fan of you and your husband's work and the Couple's Institute since back in like 2007 or 2006. You guys do great work to support clinicians as well as supporting people in a relationship in navigating couplehood. So, it's a pleasure to have you on the show. I know we had your husband on the show a couple of years ago. I'll make sure to post that episode today in today's show notes. 

Today we're going to be talking about the entrepreneur couple and what they're up against. You have a blueprint to support that. But before we go into that blueprint, I would love if you could talk a little bit about what got you interested in supporting people with this topic.

That's an easy answer, Jessica. Very easy. So, first of all, I wish we had had us. My husband and I have been working together since 1984. We've been married. We've had kids, step kids, and also been in business together all of that time. And so, we have had to face a lot of challenges about what does it mean to be in a loving relationship and also have a business together. And we live and work in Silicon Valley. I don't have to tell you that there's a lot of couples who are in business together in Silicon Valley. Some of them are in high-pressure startup situations. Some are in other situations like restaurants and real estate and all that. It's just a topic that got to be increasingly interesting to me. 

Yes! And incredibly important to give extra support because the experience is different from a couple that's not negotiating entrepreneurship or business. 

Yeah, absolutely. Because you have all the challenges of just being a couple, and then you have the challenges of being in business together. And then, you also put COVID on top of it in the recent past, and you have couples who are often under the same roof doing business and relationships. So, it's a lot to navigate. 

Yes, it is. And I know I have couples that are negotiating business as well as couplehood. And also, I love when you talk about entrepreneurship. Even if one partner in the couple is in business or entrepreneurship, it sounds like you're also seeing their partner as still included even if they're not in the business. 

That is correct because, especially with entrepreneurial businesses, the business takes over the family in so many ways, and it impacts the partner in so many ways. The worst situation of all is when you have a very high-powered entrepreneur who pretends that it has no impact on their relationship and their family because it's impossible for it not to. 

Well, I'm super excited about what we're going to dive into as far as the skill sets. I also want to ask. I know that it can be something that people aim to do, but I think it is much harder to achieve, which is to carve out really specific time that the business or the logistics of the entrepreneur or venture is not intruding upon that couple time. What would you say about that? 

First of all, one of the questions that I almost always ask couples like this is what part of your house has not been taken over by business? Or business and children. Is there anywhere in your house that is for the two of you as a couple? And if not, then where and how do you carve something out for the two of you as a couple. I'll just give you one example because I have some friends who live down in Newport Beach, California. On several occasions, they said, “Our business has taken over our house. It just has. I mean, it's really everywhere. And so, we finally made a commitment that about once every four to six weeks, we were going and spending a weekend in the hotel that is right down the street. Literally, we can walk down there. We walk there, and we have an understanding with each other that when we're there, we are not doing business.” Part of it is because entrepreneurs are passionate about their work, and it's a very powerful, very compelling force in their lives. And it can be a very strong connector for a couple. It just doesn't need to be everything. 

You know, it's so funny, Ellyn, I wasn't even considering my husband and me in this camp, but as you're talking, I'm like, “Oh, yeah. For sure.” We both have our respective businesses. And while we don't work together, that is also another combination of this where two people have their respective businesses, and it's easy to want each other's feedback and get support, but it can infiltrate, as you're saying, and it's usually really positive. But if we're neglecting the couplehood, that's the bond of the intimacy. That's where it can get problematic. 

Right. Do you mind if I ask what your husband does or what his business is? 

He's actually had a couple of ventures, but right now, he has launched an app to support people in their grieving. It's called Grief Refuge. If you've heard of Calm, that's offering meditations for anxiety, sleep, and those types of things. So, imagine that for grief, and it's something similar. 

Very cool. I'm sure very consuming. 

Consuming, yes. Yes. Was that just out of curiosity? 

Yeah. I mean, I was like, you're copreneurs, but you're not in business together. But you're both in businesses that are emotionally compelling businesses. 

And we want to be involved, and I think it is part of sharing the development, right? Because if we weren't sharing, then we're experiencing all of these things that the others included in. And as you're talking, it's our passion, or, as my husband might refer, a legacy or something that just means so much in the sense of purpose. How do you not share that? But then, where are the limits? 

I'll speak from a therapist lens for a minute. I think when a therapist tends to see a couple that's having some struggles, they tend to think of it as what's the family of origin problem, or what's the attachment style? They don't stop and often think about, “Hey, just the life they've chosen to live brings with it inevitable challenges. And let's develop the skills to meet those challenges instead of pretending those challenges don't exist.” 

No kidding. Because there are extra demands with the entrepreneur venture and the business, and so, it's really not to be underestimated. 

Right, absolutely. 

Okay. And just to reiterate what you were just saying that having that time to bond and connect, where it's off-limits for business talk, so to speak, that you're really recommending that. And it is difficult to not let it consume your household or especially with COVID. If people are working from home. Or I know my husband's work, we're both working from home. I think that space, that physical space is really key. So, I like that example of leaving the environment to really get some separation to support that bonding and not that we don't bond between the four to six weeks if that's the timeframe of excursions to get a getaway. But that that space in that real separation can be helpful. 

Absolutely, absolutely. 

Okay. Well, let's dive into the six skills that you have for living, loving, and working together. 

What we've done is after working with couples for over 30 years, we've sort of collapsed it into couples who work together or have businesses that are impacting the relationship that there are six main skills that when couples can nail these things well, their foundation is going to be really basically positive and strong. 

We use the name Candor to represent each of the six skills. The C stands for commitment. A stands for appreciation and acknowledgment. N stands for negotiation skills. D for decision-making. O for ownership. And R is roles with authority. We can dive into any and all of those that you want to, but it's those six that I think make a big difference.

Some of these, again, on face value, might seem not necessarily no brainers but might seem like, of course, but again, it's one thing to have insight around it, but it's another thing to be in the practice of it. And you give really great examples and details for each of these. So, I'd love to go into a little bit more detail. Let's just start with commitment. Help people with what you're referring to here.

Many times, people don't stop and separate. Okay. What is my commitment to my partner and my marriage? What is my commitment to my business? I do a lot of intensives today, intensives for couples who are in business together. So, I've seen some interesting examples. One of them is, it's very common for the couple to say to me something like, “Well, of course, we're committed to our marriage. We've been married already for 20 years. We plan to be together for the rest of our lives.” There's no question, and there's no conflict, really, in terms of their commitment to the marriage. Now, that's different from a couple who comes in considering divorce or something like that. 

For these entrepreneur intensives, I usually find a high level of commitment to the marriage. However, the issue of commitment to the business is fascinating. I'll give you one example of a couple I saw actually just before COVID. This is something they never talked about until they were sitting in my office. And when I asked about the commitment that they each have, he said, “I am working to sell the business. I want to retire. The most would be five years from now. I much prefer three. And so, I'm making a lot of decisions and moving to sell the business in about three years.” She said, “My commitment to this business is it is a family business. I plan to pass it on to our children. I don't want to sell it. In fact, I am doing everything I can to create more profit and be able to give it to our kids in really good shape.” They haven't ever really talked about it. They didn't realize how different their commitment was and what the commitment was. 

No kidding. 

Another example of this is there are a lot of couples, where one person has a very, very strong commitment to the business because they were the original founder of the business. And the other one may not have been working in the business at all. And then, they bring the other one in. And they can get into conflicts about, “Wait a minute. How come you're going off and doing something this weekend when the business really needs us to get this done?” And they haven't stopped to really understand what the commitment is that they each have. And so, I always like to take time to spell out with a couple, what is your commitment to your marriage and what is your commitment to your business? 

I can see the conflicts in the examples that you're referring to. Is there anything you'd like to say about how to support some resolution around that? Do you find that just even naming the end in mind or the real commitment and the intention around that, is that just a big part of shifting into something that is more collaborative in the sense of the commitment? 

Well, like the couple that I mentioned. One wants to sell it and retire, and the other one wants to pass it on. That is such a big conflict. It's going to influence so many decisions. So, when I was working with them, I said, “We're not even going to go a lot farther on these other five things, although there are elements of each of them included in figuring this out. But we really need to take some time to understand. Okay, how are you guys going to navigate this? Because maybe he's going to retire in three years, and you're going to take over the business. But then that's going to affect how you set things up over the next three years.” 

Totally. 

And so, taking the time for that and not rushing is so crucial. 

I can see it's like the foundation. And if we're not clear on that, then it just muddies all the water around the different skill sets that we're going to be talking about here. 

Right. And the kind of help that you might want to bring in and choices you make about investing. I mean, there are so many things that are contingent on where you're heading. 

So important to make explicit. It's amazing how our passion and our vision, and our ideas are easy to get moving and get into action and perhaps not really get this explicit and be on the same page. 

Right. 

Okay, great. A in candor stands for appreciation. Help us with what is involved with appreciation.

Sure. Let's talk about it in terms of home and work because when couples are first together, and they've had that wonderful, exhilarating, falling in love, they're very generous with each other about bringing gifts or saying, “You're wonderful.” There's a lot more physical connection. And then, as they spend more time together, they have more conflicts, they have more challenges. For many couples, positive recognition disappears. It's unique. People need that positive acknowledgment, appreciation, the recognition of what I bring and what I contribute to this marriage. So, it's needed at home.

The other thing is most entrepreneurs really understand in a way that some other people don't. They really understand the importance of recognizing their best customers. I mean, reward programs are an example. We have reward programs at Starbucks, and just about every store you buy things in anymore. Rewards and positive acknowledgment are built-in, and in many companies, that really, really best customers are treated very well. But they don't turn around and think about, “Well, my spouse is actually somebody I rely on a lot. They're really an integral part of both my business and my home life. So, how about if I wake up and start actually acknowledging and appreciating my spouse?” For some people, when you say that, it's a big aha moment. I mean, it sounds sort of silly what I'm talking about right now, but they don't realize how much they've let that disappear. Or even how hard it can be to start doing it when they haven't been doing it. 

One of the things that my husband and I did was we developed a thing called the Daily Double, which is basically challenging a couple to give each other two positive ways of recognizing each other for a minimum of 15 days in a row. We usually try to go for 30. And so, that can be like one on the home front and one on the business front. We actually have on our website like a 30-day challenge where people can actually go in. They can get a calendar. They can mark it off. They can get suggestions. But it is interesting to people to see how hard it can be for them to get 15 days in a row. 

No kidding. And I just want to emphasize how important this is. I love that you have a way for people to engage with that in a really playful, fun, specific way. I just want to say that it's so human for us to want to turn to our significant other if we're experiencing hardship or difficulty and want to get their validation, their empathy, their support. And so, it can often sound like a complaint or venting or passing out issues. When things are challenging, it's again, like I said, that superhuman, and we have that propensity to have that negative bias of just tracking the things that need to be fixed. And so, this is so critical. I love that you're helping gamify it so it can be part of the practice because some of these things might not seem necessary. But if we start ignoring them, we can see the real damage that can be done in just kind of taking these things for granted. 

Also, I had a really interesting experience with one particular client. She's a very high-level executive in a major company. I was actually seeing her individually. I didn't see the couple. But I challenged her to do the daily double with her partner. Her first reaction to doing it was, “Well, I'm just going to resent it because I'm going to be the only one doing it.” I challenged her anyway. I said, “How about if you just do it? Let's start out with two weeks and see what happens and what you learned from doing it.” And actually, she ended up doing it for 30 days. And what she said to me toward the end of it was, “I'm kind of blown away because I'm the one who's doing these things. I'm feeling much more love and much more empathy toward my partner than I ever imagined I would feel by starting to do these things.” So, she expected resentment, and she ended up quite the opposite of resentful. 

That it's cultivating the appreciation even if you're the one giving it. 

Yeah. 

So true because if it's genuine and you're really having integrity around the practice, you are tracking for genuine appreciation, which then supports focusing on it and cultivating it internally. 

Yes, absolutely. 

Okay. And then, negotiation is the next one. Is that right? 

Yeah, N is the next one. And probably, in some ways, this is the hardest of all six skills because negotiation is not really a one-time event. It's an ongoing process. And so, developing the skills to be a good negotiator with your partner is something that's going to serve you well. 

Most of us did not grow up in equal relationships. We grew up in hierarchies with teachers, bosses, with parents. And so, we don't have inherently the skill set to hang on to something that's important to us and simultaneously be able to hear what's important to our partners. And so, what happens over and over and over again is that I see couples making pretty much one of two mistakes when they're negotiating, or maybe three, but like, the first one is people just don't prepare for the negotiation. 

I'll give you an example. I mean, my husband and I have an ongoing issue with clutter because I like things neat. He doesn't care. He doesn't see it. He just doesn't see. He can live in a ton of clutter and not even see it. So, we've had to like work this out over time. As I said, it's an ongoing process. It's something we've negotiated in different ways over different periods of time. And so, the first thing is when you know you're going to take on, let's say, a repetitive issue. You want to do some preparation before you sit down for it so that you know what's important to me in this discussion. A good way to start sometimes is just to say something like, “We seem to disagree about…” 

Pete and I would say we seem to disagree about the amount of clutter that it's okay to have in the kitchen, in the family room, in the living room. It doesn't start with you're a slob. It starts with, “We seem to disagree about this.” So, you want to do some preparation. And then, the sort of the two mistakes that happen after that is one person may just push really hard for what they want at the expense of the other. They can sometimes operate from the position that there's only one winner or only one person is going to get what they want. They don't know how to stay in the tension until they figure out a solution that works for both people. And so, if you have one person who operates from that kind of demanding, pushing, I'm going to make sure I get what I want, the negotiation is not going to end up well. 

The other pretty common typical mistake is the person who collapses easily. They give up too quickly. What usually happens if somebody gives up too quickly is they end up depleted, or they end up resentful. The negotiation is not really a successful negotiation. 

This is so important. I know it's something that maybe people have heard before. But again, in practice, this can be very nuanced. I like even the description of holding and being able to tolerate some of that tension because it isn't always apparent. And sometimes, we need to understand what it means to each person and have that dialogue so we can start to generate more creativity around how does this serve you? How would it be helpful to you? How would it be helpful to me? Because I know that feeling of walking away and feeling like I just got what I want, but I don't think it is going to be a win for my partner, and that doesn't feel good. If it's not a win for both. It's really not a win for the relationship. 

I mean, early in our marriage, we had a decision that took us close to a year to make. We did five-day couples' intensive workshops. We run a bunch of them. And then, we had very different ideas about how we wanted to continue them, including where we were going to do them, how many people would come, what was the structure going to be like. And both of us felt very strongly about it. So, it took a long time and a lot of discussions. 

Looking back, it seems kind of ridiculous and funny at the time. But because these workshops were so intense, we'd work with couples for eight hours a day, and then we'd have therapists who came and observed, and we'd work with them at night. So, it was basically about an 11-hour workday for four or five days in a row. I really wanted to do them at the beach, because I could get out in the sun, the water. It was rejuvenating for me. Pete was saying things like, “It's just too expensive. We've done a bunch at the beach. I don't want to go to the beach. I want to go to the mountains.” He was hanging on to the mountains. I was hanging on to the beach. 

And then, one day, I said, “Well, what about Lake Tahoe?” Which now seems totally obvious, but it was beach and mountains. We ended up a few years running workshops at a particular place in Lake Tahoe. So, sometimes you don't see something that's right in front of you when part of what's going on is actually developing a skill set for knowing how to talk, knowing how to hold on to what's important, not collapsing, asking your partner why it matters to them. And in the long run, too, we ended up with a different model for doing the workshops, which actually turned out to be a really great model, but we couldn't see it at the beginning. 

Yes! I know we could probably spend the rest of the episode just on this. I can just echo in my own experience. Some of the decisions my husband and I have made, it's taken us years and the layers and the understanding that if we stay with it and the kind of deepening and the understanding we get, we wouldn't have gotten to the decision that we got to had we not given it time for that process. And it is difficult to sustain some of that tension for sure. 

Yeah, absolutely. 

Okay. I would love to talk about the next one, decision-making, because I know when I remember listening to your presentation, I was like, “Ah, this is so helpful. It makes perfect sense.” And again, some of this might be really just making some of these things super explicit. But let's talk about decision-making and the three types that you refer to.

This is one of the skills that couples, in general, seem to be able to take a piece of and operationalize really quickly. It can make a really big difference. This is one of my favorites, and I do love to talk about it. Basically, we've said decision-making could be broken down into three types of decisions. And once both people understand the three types of decisions, then you can even decide before you start having a conflictual conversation. Or even if it's not conflictual but you can decide what kind of decision-making you're going to use. It short circuits a lot of stuff. 

One type of decision is a unilateral decision. When you have a unilateral decision, it means that one partner can make the decision. That person is the one who's going to carry it out. When unilateral decisions are agreed upon, it reduces an enormous amount of conflict and gets things done a whole lot more quickly. However, if one partner makes a unilateral decision and it hasn't been agreed on, then things can be really bad. I mean, the most extreme example, of course, is a couple decides to be monogamous in their marriage, and then one partner has an affair, unilaterally deciding to have an affair. Well, that kind of unilateral decision wreaks havoc in a marriage because of the fact that they had agreed together to be monogamous, and then all of a sudden, one person decides to break that agreement. 

I've seen things. I mean, one of the ones that stood out to me was a couple where she came home one day and found a Ferrari in the driveway. He bought a Ferrari without saying a word to her. And needless to say, she was pretty upset about it. But there are all kinds of unilateral decisions that can work really, really well. In fact, if you talk about some sexual stereotypes, in fact, there are many families where let's say, it's more common for it to be the female partner. She may be making decisions all the time about kids' activities, about playdates, about even nannies sometimes, or whatever. There can be a lot of decisions that get made just to keep the flow of the family life together that are made unilaterally. 

Absolutely. 

So, that's the first type. The second type is an equilateral decision. When you have an equilateral decision, it means essentially that both partners are going to decide, and nothing's going to get implemented until both people agree. Equilateral decisions usually take more time to decide. There's often more opportunity for conflict initially. But if the couple stays and hangs in there and makes an equilateral decision, you get a lot of buy-in to the decision. Like, there's usually no resentment that comes afterward. There's no lingering conflict. It's solid. It's a good decision. It's very solid. 

I had one couple that I worked with, where they were in a really difficult conflict about where they were going to live. She really wanted to go live in the country. He really, really wanted to live in a major city wanted to go somewhere like New York or Boston. She was ready to move into the Sierras somewhere. It was a tense, tense, tense decision until they did finally work it out. So, I found myself saying to them many times. I don't know what the outcome is going to be. I don't know what the two of you are going to end up deciding. But I do know that if you hang in there and keep really getting underneath to know what's important to each of you, then the decision will be a better decision. And in fact, they ended up selling. I lived, like I said, in Silicon Valley, Palo Alto area. They ended up selling their house in Palo Alto for a significant amount of money. They moved to a small condo in San Francisco and bought a place up in the woods up in like, I think it was Sonoma or Sebastopol or Healdsburg, somewhere like that. They were happy with that. I can acknowledge both of them and acknowledge some of the kind of retirement they wanted to have. But they couldn't see that at the beginning. 

So key. Right. If we rush or get a pit in a power struggle and we're fighting for one way, we might miss what will come from this collaborative staying with it. It opens up new doors when we stay with that question. We stay with it long enough. 

Right. Totally. So, the third type of decision is probably one of my very favorites, which is what we call the 51%/49% decision. And a 51%/49% decision goes like this: It's decided upfront that one partner has 51% of the say. So basically, that means that that partner is going to be the one who makes the final decision. Now, these work best when both people know that the partner who has 51% is going to take into account what the other person wants. It doesn't mean they're going to do it, but they're going to listen, or they're going to ask, they're going to find out, and they're going to make decisions based on a capacity to consider both partners. These decisions reduce conflict a lot. They take less time than equilateral decisions. They're rooted in some significant trust that has been built up over time and that they just expedite so much when couples can use them. 

There are so many times now that Pete and I will just say to each other before we start, let's say, having a business meeting. Here's a good example because it happened just a couple of days ago. We're creating a particular new website for a new business idea that we're doing. And before we started to talk about it, I said, “I'll tell you what. You can have 51% on all the content pages. Like I know, it's important to you how things are worded and how they're languaged. And so, I'm okay if you want 51%.” He said, “I would love it, because then when I come to you for ideas or to check something out, I'm not feeling like I have to defend my position. So, I would love that 51%.” And I said, “And there were things about how the site is going to work technically. And also, it involves putting some other therapists on the site. And I said, a lot of these people are trainees with me, and I want 51% of the say on who's on the site.” And he said, “No problem.” And so, you can see that was a quick discussion before we even had the meeting about the site. 

And so, when you can agree upfront what form you're going to use of these three types, it's very, very freeing to do that. You know, like in the running of our business, we use all three types of decisions. There are areas of the business where we do everything equilaterally. There are things where they're 51%/49%. And there are things that are unilateral. 

I wonder, even as we're listening, I can say, as I'm listening, I can recognize areas that were already doing this. It's just we're maybe not as cognizant of it. So, it can be a really helpful and real skill and a tool to be explicit in the example you just referenced. 

An area that's a really great one for 51%/49% is when a couple is doing, let's say, remodeling or building or something. I mean, remodeling is a really good one because people often have strong feelings about how their new space is going to look. And usually, one partner is doing more work on a project like this. It's very debilitating if the person who's doing a lot of the work can always be vetoed by the other person. And so, if they can set it up upfront, where they have that 51%, then they really do solicit each other's input a lot. 

I mean, I had a couple again not too long ago who actually bought a new house. They ended up in my office deciding that she was going to have 51% on the inside, and he was going to have 51% on the outside. 

Nice. I love it. That's so great. Yeah. It's similar with my husband and me as far as decorating. I will do all the legwork and the research because I'm that much more interested and invested. But I will bring him my favorites where he'll have buy-in, and we'll talk about it, and then I'll get a direction, so he's included on the front end. And then, based on all the criteria that maybe we've talked about, I'll come up with options, and then he'll give me input, but it definitely fits, I think, into this 51%/49%. It is extremely efficient. 

Very efficient. It makes you not feel resentful about doing all that legwork. 

Well, I'm much more attached. I'm honest. If there are things that I think that he would like, I would include that, but he tends not to care as much. So, it's like you said, the person that cares more probably doesn't have as much issue doing the work as long as there's a payoff or the reward is worth it. Right? If he was vetoing, and I just cut me off at the knees, that wouldn't feel great.

Right. That would not feel good at all. 

No. Okay, Ellyn. Well, I realized we haven't talked about ownership or rules with authority. Is there a way that people can get a little bit more about this? 

Sure. We have a handout on our website. That's called The Candor Solution. Jessica, I can give you a link. 

Absolutely perfect. And I will put it on the show notes. 

Yeah, because I would love people to take a look. We've got it all spelled out. There's stuff on ownership and roles with authority on there too. I think it gives people a really nice blueprint for thinking about a lot of these issues. 

Oh, the handout is so great. You give examples. You get some exercise. I think it's really clean and really concise and such a good guide. I will make sure to put that on today's show notes. Was there anything you want to say about this topic before we transition to how people can get in touch with what you and the Couple's Institute are doing? 

I think what I would say is that being able to work with your spouse, or being able to support each other's businesses like you and your husband, Jessica, you know, I call it Passionate Enterprise. It really is so, so meaningful for so many couples as long as you don't shoot yourself in the foot and undermine yourself and minimize the complexity of what you're doing. 

There's a video on the website, which, Jessica, you can post the link to that video also. My daughter and I actually interviewed lots of couples who work together. We really just tried to dig into what makes it good for you, what makes it hard for you. I think it's great to hear some of this in the couple's own words as well. 

No kidding. And that will be fascinating to reference. I know people would love to have that as a resource. And it sounds like what you're saying, Ellyn, is that there are skills, there are tools to support you in negotiating relationships and entrepreneurship if you're married and business is a part of it, and that it's really setting you up more for success. 

Yes. And I'm interested in setting people up for growth, for a challenge, and for success. 

Yes. Wonderful. Well, Ellyn, it sounds like you also, COVID aside, work with entrepreneurial couples. Is that right?

Oh, yeah. Yeah, lots of them. 

Can you tell people more about how they can get in touch with you and the work you're doing? 

I mean, the easiest way to get in touch with us is to go to CouplesInstitute.com and fill out a contact us form. That's the simplest, most straightforward way. There's a search box there. And if you type into that search box, Daily Double, for example, you'll get what I was talking about earlier. If you type in Candor Solution Blueprint, it'll take you to the blueprint page. If you type in couples as a team, you'll end up with the video. So, there are lots of different ways to get to the places that are specific for entrepreneurs. 

And like I said, I also, pre-COVID, was doing quite a few of these that's changed some in the last year and a half or so. But I was doing two-day intensives with entrepreneur couples coming in person and going through these six skill sets and really laying that strong foundation for each other.

Wonderful. Well, it sounds like you're still available to do that work. It's just the form of it might be shifting or has shifted. And so, if you are directing people to a Couple's Institute, they can also find out how to access retreats, your books, and all the other resources too. Is that right? 

Yeah. In fact, we're going to have a new website up soon, but it's all there on the old website, too. And you just have to use that search box. Jessica, I'll give you a few links too that you can post. 

Perfect. I know there are some therapists that listen to the show, too. I love that you have the training, and you have intensive or things that you do to support clinicians, so I want to point people to that as well. 

Well, Ellyn, thank you for joining us today. It's been such a privilege and an honor. Thank you. 

You're welcome. Thank you, Jessica.

Signing Off

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