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Fewer and fewer people are opting to get married as time passes by. Is marriage outdated? According to Marcia Naomi Berger, absolutely not. However, marriage has changed.

In this episode, we’ll talk about how marriage has changed over the years and why so many marriages fail. We’ll discuss some myths and expectations around finding the right partner and we’ll delve deeper into understanding the benefits of being marriage-minded and some tips in creating this wonderful connection with you and your partner and so much more.

Marcia Naomi Berger, MSW, LCSW, leads dynamic marriage and communication workshops, is a popular speaker at conferences, a clinical social worker with a private psychotherapy practice, and has taught continuing education classes for therapists at the University of California Berkeley Extension, Alliant International University, and various professional associations. She's the author of Marriage Minded: An A to Z Dating Guide for Lasting Love and Marriage Meetings for Lasting Love: 30 Minutes a Week to the Relationship You've Always Wanted.

In this Episode 

7:08 The crying need for people to learn how to have good relationships skills and create good marriages.

8:05 How has marriage changed over the years.

11:02 What makes a good marriage?

13:55 Myths and expectations that get in the way of a good marriage

16:48 What men think about marriage and what keeps some women from finding the right person to marry.

18:52 The benefits of being marriage-minded.

20:50 Marcia's advice to those who have lost their passion in marriage.

26:11 Tips for keeping the fun alive when there are so many demands.

29:29 How can people recognize and overcome what’s getting in the way of a good marriage.

36:13 The Marriage Meeting framework.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Understand that conflicts are part of marriage.
• Do not expect your partner to be perfect like what you see in fairy tales.
• Grow an attitude of understanding and focusing more on what you are appreciating about your partners rather than picking up the flaws.
• Although you can certainly ask for what you want and maybe some things will change, do not expect a major personality change in your partner.
• Learn how to express yourself in ways that are respectful to both you and your partner.
• Deal with issues constructively.
• Prevent the issues from developing into major things.
• Schedule a weekly date with your partner. Go out and do things together. Recreate the times before you got married.
• Take time for yourself to relieve the stress and come back into your relationship a happy person.
• Eliminate activities that are not truly nurturing your relationship. Then, schedule a walk in the neighborhood or anything to bring you back to relaxation and in harmony with yourself and your partner.
• Keep learning and growing together.

Mentioned

Marriage Minded: An A to Z Dating Guide for Lasting Love (book) (*Amazon affiliate link)

Marriage Meetings for Lasting Love: 30 Minutes a Week to the Relationship You've Always Wanted (book) (*Amazon affiliate link)

Eight Dates: Essential Conversations for a Lifetime of Love (book) (*Amazon affiliate link)

ERP 252: How to Deal with Sexual Performance Anxieties – An Interview with Dr. Ian Kerner

Connect with Marcia Naomi Berger

Website marcianaomiberger.com

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LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

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Email: [email protected]

About Today's Show

Marcia, thank you so much for joining us today. 

Thank you so much for having me here, Dr. Jessica. 

Yes. And I love that you have been continuing to offer support in the way of couplehood and relationship for a long time. I remember mentioning your Marriage Meeting book years ago. And I know you have a book, Marriage-Minded, where you're really supporting people and understanding real key principles in having healthy, lasting marriages, and also how to maybe even choose the right partner or look at what is getting in the way if you're having a difficult time getting into that partnership that is lasting. And I'm interested before we get started on what got you interested in this particular topic and supporting people to be more marriage-minded? 

Well, look around, and we can see how there's a crying need for people to learn how to have good relationship skills and create good marriages because so many marriages these days are not working out well. People are lacking role models because their parents are divorced, or maybe they are frightened to marry because they've been married already and it didn't work out well for them. 

Well, it sounds like this is just a real need that you're seeing in really supporting people to feel encouraged and hopeful about creating a healthy marriage. With so many divorces, is marriage even outdated? Is it even relevant? What would you say to that? 

I would say that marriage is certainly relevant. It is not outdated. However, marriage has changed. So, the old kind of marriage, we might say, is for most people outdated, the kind where there are very strict roles where the husband was the provider, went out to work. The woman was the homemaker. And also, even rules have changed about whether people need to get married in order to live together and to have children together. The expectations of society have changed a lot. 

And also our culture has changed. Now, women can earn a good living on their own. They don't need to be married in order to support themselves in a nice middle-class lifestyle or more. And in terms of physical needs, they can do it without marriage. However, the way I see marriage has changed is that people are longing for something different now. They're longing for emotional and spiritual fulfillment in their marriage. 

And then, they might say marriage is outdated, but that's not true at all. The truth is that marriage is, in some ways, even better because the emotional and spiritual fulfillment that comes with a good marriage is just so wonderful. 

Yes, and I can testify from my own experience that really doing the work, the relational skills, the cultivating of this type of partnership does take effort and intention, but the rewards are so, so great. And I just continue to be so, so grateful for what my relationship with my husband provides. 

It sounds like, Marcia, you're saying that it is still incredibly relevant that we need to have or really long to have this emotional connection and intimacy with another, and that's still such a reason to get married, and there are so many benefits, and that perhaps when we enter into partnership, it's almost the sense of it happens to us. And what you're really helping people recognize is there is a skill required in cultivating relationships and marriage. Is that right? 

That's definitely right. And people can learn how to do it. There are many mentors out there. I see my role as being one of those mentors for people. I know how much I have valued people who have been mentors to me and my journey toward creating a good marriage. 

And for people listening, I'm sure there are ideas around what a good marriage is, or even an ideal marriage. Can you help just name what we're talking about when we're talking about something that is a good marriage?

I think a good marriage involves a kind of balance and a recognition that we are two separate people. We each have our individual needs, wants, and desires. We want to help each other achieve those and also to recognize that while we retain our individuality, we also are very, very aware of how we are contributing to a relationship. 

So, it's almost like there are three partners. There's him or her and me, and then there's the relationship. It's not just what's good for him or what's good for me. It's what is good for our relationship to keep it thriving. 

And this isn't just a no-brainer. This takes some effort and intention. 

Right, we are investing our energy in a good direction. 

And one of the things about your Marriage-Minded book, I mean, is wealth. I mean, it's this encyclopedia, if you will, of practices, behaviors, attitudes, like things that really promote healthy relationships and marriage. 

Yes, and I love it when people refer to add to it as an encyclopedia because I was intending to be as thorough as possible because there are a lot of fine books out there about creating a good marriage. They tend to concentrate on one or two themes. I wanted to cover all bases. 

Yes, and I know part of your goal is supporting particularly women, but that this is what you're discussing is really gender-neutral. It's really universal that it's anyone who is interested in cultivating lasting relationships and marriage that they can utilize. And that the book was curated just to kind of name for people listening for women who are interested in choosing a partner, or looking at what's getting in the way of choosing a partner, or being able to cultivate a lasting relationship. 

Yeah, that's true. And I did write the book with women in mind because that's what I know being a woman and having gone through my own journey. However, just about everything in the book applies to men, too. Many people who are married also value the information in the book because we're still dealing with—Are our expectations for marriage realistic? If I'm married, and I think we're never supposed to have any conflict, well, it would be good to know that that's a myth. We're two different people. And we are going to have differences, and we can learn how to deal with them constructively and respectively, whether we're single, married, male, or female. 

What are you seeing that are some of these expectations or the things that get in the way? 

The first one I mentioned is we should never fight. When I say the word fight, I mean we should never have conflict. I'm not talking about a boxing match, but disagreement and the kind of feelings that it can stir up, learning that this is part of life, part of married life that two people are going to have differences. 

Other marriage myths are, I'll change him, or I'll change her later. And basically, I'll say what you see is what we get. Then, long-standing habits are not likely to change. Although we can certainly ask for what we want and maybe some things will change but don't expect a major personality change. 

Let's see. Other myths would be this person should be perfect. We can get past that one by wondering how perfect we are because we all have our strengths in our areas that we can grow in. 

Yeah, it sounds as though you're really helping people look at the humanity and the reality of this other human being really working with them rather than this experience that we're hopeful about. But again, it's almost this passive. It happens to us. Would you agree? 

Would I agree that people may think it's just supposed to happen without energy? Yeah, I mean, that's another good myth that everything should go fine. And we should find our mate and live happily ever after without investing any energy into the process. That's the fairy tale myth, which I do refer to in the book here and there, that the fairy tales create really poor expectations because if we haven't had role models and we think it's supposed to be like a fairy tale or else it's terrible, where it's really something in between, and it can certainly be a very, very nice the mass majority of the time, if we have realistic expectations, and we contribute what we have learned in order to keep the relationship good. And sometimes it will feel like a fairy tale, but not every day, not every minute. 

And it's like with most things, it's a practice, and that what we create is really a result of our investment often. 

Yes, I like the way you put that. It's so true. 

Well, and since the book is geared a lot towards women, I know that you also speak to certain myths about what may be a woman would say that's heterosexual about men, right? Is there anything you want to name about whether or not men are interested in marriage? Or are the older good men are taken or anything like that? I know that those are a couple of you speak to. 

Yeah, you're brought up two things that I'd like to respond to. One, are men just as interested in marriage as women? And the answer is, yes, they are. A recent survey conducted by Pew Research found that nearly equal numbers of men and women, 83% for men 84% for women, said that having a successful marriage was one of the most important things or very important in their lives. I think we hear more about wanting to get married from women than for men, but we know now that men yearn for it just as much as women. Just about as much. 

Okay. I love that. 

Yeah. And there was something else you mentioned, which I dealt with early in the book. And that is, what are the obstacles that women are finding might be getting in their way of finding a relationship partner and creating a good marriage. An example of one is there are no good men around. They're all taken. That's not true. I do believe there's somebody for everybody. Maybe not in your town. Maybe you're going to find somebody in a different town or a different country. This is so much easier now with online dating. And another one is I'm too fat. I'm too thin. All these things—they're not true. They're not true. Maybe one person won't like you because you're overweight, and somebody else might want a woman who has a little something on her bones. 

Yes. Yes. Okay. And I wonder if we want to just back up a moment. Is there anything else that you want to say about the importance of marriage or the benefits of marriage? Because I know that this is something that we long to have a sense of deep lasting connection. Is there anything else you want to say about marriage and being marriage-minded? 

Yeah. Well, there's been a lot of research on this, and it does show that married people are likely to be happier, live longer, and enjoy better health. They're more optimistic and generally functioning better in all the important ways. 

Another thing I want to say is that many people regard their spouse as their best friend. And those are the best marriages also confirmed by research to treat each other like your best friend. You are cherishing your relationship and helping each other, supporting each other towards your individual goals and your joint goals. 

And yes, this is that relating and the interdependence that you speak about that's healthy, that both people are their own person, but there's the shared space and how they're relating to one another that is so supportive and hopefully secure and safe, and, like really helping with growth. And that is so much of what the quality is of a best friend is, is that right? 

That's right, yeah. And besides the best friendship that these marriages have a more satisfying sex life. And you're feeling like you're with your soulmate, somebody who really gets you and understands you and isn't halfway out the door. Somebody who's sticking around because you've made that commitment to each other. 

Great. So, you're identifying just a sense of like, chemistry, if you will, or the sense of passion, as well as sex and friendship that is deeply fulfilling. And again, that's not every day that you're feeling that but that there's this cultivation and the priority of it. Do you find that people get stuck with this where they tend to lean towards more of this friendship, shared experiences, and bonding and maybe not have as much chemistry or as much sex or, you know, they're heavier in one area or another? 

Right. I see what you're saying. I'm seeing that with some couples. It's not unusual at all when a couple comes in for therapy with me, and they did have the chemistry and the passion when they first got married, and then the years go by, and it does turn into more platonic. And the reason that they're coming in is they want that passion back. How did they lose it? Often, I think they lose it because they don't know how to handle things when the times get rough. And maybe somebody gets annoyed with somebody for something, but they don't say anything. And then it takes time. And then the grudges build up. And then, as they say, the most important sex organ is between the ears. It's the brain. And so if we're not feeling good about the other person, because we have built up resentments, then the sex life goes away. 

It's interrelated. 

Yes, definitely. 

And what do you recommend for people that might be experiencing that? 

Well, to learn how to deal with the differences in a respectful way, clear up misunderstandings. My first book is called Marriage Meetings For Lasting Love, 30 Minutes a Week to the Relationship You've Always Wanted. That teaches couples how to have a weekly meeting so that the communication stays good and both people continue to feel appreciated and have fun times together and coordinate the teamwork in a way that works for both of them and dealing with issues constructively. So, that's preventive. It prevents the issues from developing into major things that distance each other. 

I recommend that for people when they have lost their passion. Sometimes they will want to start having the weekly meeting. And they still need some help, though, because they have these entrenched patterns, sometimes repeating what they grew up with and witnessed in their parents and found a deal with conflict, and that doesn't work too well for them in terms of having a satisfying a romantic and sex life. So, it's not just the meeting. It's really learning how to be who you are—expressing yourselves in ways that are respectful to both you and your partner so that you can gain an understanding and more empathy for each other—Trust. 

There's so much involved, which is why I love that you offer this more comprehensive look at these relational principles and practices because even as you're talking, I can recognize with my husband, we really are intentional, and we really prioritize our relationship. And yet, there are times where we recognize, “Oh, we haven't been doing the marriage meeting.” And that just came up recently where personality-wise, between the two of us, I tend to be more vocal if something's bothering me. I will tend to initiate a conversation and try to resolve it, where my husband, I think it relates to how he was brought up. There are probably a lot of factors that contribute to his more contained approach. And sometimes that means where he won't even realize that he's not enjoying something or he has a concern or an issue, and it's a little bit more challenging for him to vocalize just because that's not his primary. He's a little bit more kinesthetic in his learning and nonverbal. 

There's a lot of wisdom in what he brings. I'm just a little bit more verbal between the two of us, and I know, gender. There's this type around women tend to be a little bit more verbal. Anyway. But it dawned on me, Marcia, that I was like, “Oh, if we had something scheduled, like your marriage meeting, that that could be a neutral space where he doesn't have to confront or initiate or try to broach something that could feel arduous for him, and that it's a safe space, and that it's just there consistently whether or not we utilize it, or have a lot to say, but that it's there. 

And prior to even giving this example, I was just saying there are so many moving parts. This is why I love this topic, and I'm so passionate about relationships. There are so many practices that continue to keep us in. I want to say engaged, right, in the work because it's like, there are so many aspects. It's hard to get bored. 

Right. Yeah. Engaged is a good word. Yeah. There's just so much we can do to keep the relationship good. Or to restore it. Yeah. You know, often with help, with help from people like us. 

Exactly. Is there anything you want to say? I came across something in Psychology Today. And they were talking about how often couples or partners in a relationship when they look at who they're going to want to spend time with. Like, the question was asked, “Who do you want to spend time with?” And most of the people in relationships choose friends or someone else other than their partner or even their kids. And when they dove in a little bit more, it was, so much of partnership is domestic, or it relates to work, right? Like, spending time with my partners, usually, we're doing some type of chore or were parenting, or we're doing something. And is there anything you want to say about how to keep the play or the exciting or the fun alive when there are so many demands? 

Oh, well, the first thing that comes to mind is to make sure you have a weekly date with your partner. A lot of people have heard about having a weekly date. What a good idea it is. Again, in my practice, working with couples, I find that they may not remember the last time that they had a date. So going out and doing things together, recreate the times be what it was like before you were married, where you're able to just hang out together. You're not talking about chores or difficulties. You're daydreaming out loud with each other and enjoying being in that space together, wherever you are. 

Yeah. We get it, and we understand it. But are we actually practicing that? 

Right. Right. And again, the weekly meeting helps remember. “Well, what are we going to do for our date this week? Or next week? How about planning a vacation? Let's try something new, something different, bring excitement in. And also, you know, you mentioned talking so much about chores and parenting. That can get to feel burdensome. 

Yes, it's easy for the pace of life to kind of begin to overrun us if we're not careful and to really be intentional about that self-care and relational care and really create space because, I mean, look at when we're working. And then we have exercise, and we're maybe cooking a healthy meal, or cleaning. There's limited time in the day. So, to really have time for rest and relaxation, or this connecting time it can. 

And sorry, I just want to add how many people are contending with social media or TV shows or other distractions or habits that can be occupying time, and that takes away from connection? 

Yeah, it's almost like you would want to curate your time and eliminate the kinds of activities that are not truly nurturing and maybe wasting time. And then schedule a walk in the neighborhood or anything that's gonna bring you back to relaxation and harmony with yourself and your partner. 

And Marcia, as we're talking, you said it's easy to know it intellectually. But it's another thing to actually practice it. When you are working with people and looking at what they're actually doing and helping them identify, oh, like we're not playing together, or we're not really taking time to really nurture our bond. What do you do to help people overcome or recognize what's getting in the way? Is there anything you want to say around that? 

That's is an interesting question. It does come up all the time. As a therapist, sometimes other therapists too, we give them “homework” or exercises to practice during the week. Sometimes they do. Sometimes they don't. I think a lot of it is that changing routines, changing habits is quite a challenge. And if your habit is to not plan and weekly date, then you may forget, even though you say you're going to do it. So, becoming conscious of what you really want and how to do it. 

And by seeing a couple counselor, or therapist, or your individual therapist, you'll have somebody you're accountable to, and that does make it more likely that whatever you need to do to enhance your relationship is more likely to happen if they're going to report back to me, and tell me how their week went and what they did or how they handled the conflict and what skills they put into practice. I have noticed that some people will have a weekly marriage meeting or intention outside of the session with me. I'm away on vacation, or they're away, and they forget to have the meeting. So it shows me how important accountability is for people. 

Oh, my goodness, I'm so grateful you mentioned that because accountability is something that can keep us aligned with our values. Because if we look at the moment or the flow, and especially when I mentioned devices, how easy it can be to watch a show and just feel super cozy and comfy and want to do that. And yet, perhaps lovemaking or having a deeper conversation would be so much more rewarding long term. 

I had a guest. I think it was Ian Kerner. He really works around sex issues and couples. He was saying one of the things that he finds is that initiation, that what happens before they have sex or make love, like that's where they tend to have the most problems is how it's initiated. And he was calling them sex scripts. Like, if you were to write it out, what happens, right? What's the script of how that typically happens? 

It occurs to me that if we're not accountable, that we want to have a rich sexual intimacy or sex life, or we want that to be a healthy part of our relationship, but we're not accountable to prioritizing that, and sometimes it feels effortful to get into that mode if you're in a different mode. Can you speak to that at all? 

Sure. Spontaneous sex can be wonderful. But as you say, people may forget to have it or to initiate it. Many couples have a designated time, like every Sunday morning or Thursday night, or whatever. That's going to be a time that we are going to have sexual intimacy. And that's a way to make it much more likely that it's going to happen. It doesn't have to happen, but you get in the frame of mind of looking forward to it and wanting to initiate it. Respond to it, or initiate it. So that is something that I do recommend for people that want to make sure that it happens and it doesn't rule out spontaneous sex, but it also makes it an expectation for a certain time. 

Yes, because I think that accountability and like you're saying if we can be intentional and have a time that's allocated, we can start to look forward to it. It becomes a part of our life, and it's more accessible. I know that sometimes even insecurities come up when we talk about initiating sex. I remember in the Gottmans, they had a book that's titled Eight Dates. And then I think in there they cited like, 70% of people don't verbalize or don't initiate sex. They actually just look at their partner to see. Do I see signs that they're maybe open to it or interested? 

So, it's like all this nonverbal tracking, rather than like, “Oh, this is important to us, and we're gonna make sure we do this, and we're in it together.” Especially as you're saying, if you have a support person in the way of a therapist, a marriage counselor, that really helps with the visibility and accountability. Is there anything else for couples or people listening that adds some accountability? Oftentimes, that's not a sexy word, right? That people don't necessarily feel a lot of joy around being accountable yet what it provides is so powerful. Is there anything you want to speak to where couples might be able to have more accountability without maybe a support person? Is there any way to access that? 

Well, I think that the weekly marriage meeting that I recommend in my first book, Marriage Meetings for Lasting Love, is a wonderful way to encourage accountability. Because after the appreciation part of the meeting, where each of you says what you valued in the other person during the last week, then they talk about chores. And there can be a lot of conflict about somebody says, I'm going to do this chore, we're going to call this person, this repair person, or whatever it is, and then it doesn't happen, and then the grudge start building. But in the marriage meeting, this is time to report. Renegotiate if, for some reason, the time didn't happen. 

The Marriage Meeting is a great way to have accountability, including accountability to make sure that you have your weekly date. And to make sure that you bring up at least one issue, maybe two, that you want to clear up a misunderstanding about or get more information about where each of you stands on something. So I think, again, for accountability, a weekly marriage meeting is great. And that's something they do themselves without a therapist, although some people like to come in and learn how to do it with a therapist, and they're on their own once they know-how. 

Yes, I'll make sure to put the link to that book on today's show notes as well. And so, it sounds like there's a framework that you're offering with the marriage meeting. And it sounds like there's a first component which is giving gratitude and appreciation. And the second is to clean house a little and maybe clear one or two things that are maybe not working great. Am I hearing this? 

Yeah, well, the part where there may be things that don't feel like they're working well, that was in the last part of the meeting. I call it problems and challenges. Some people like to call it issues or concerns. But the first three parts of the meeting should go pretty quickly. That's more like the business part of the meeting. And then, when things get emotional, that goes into the last part of the meeting, the fourth part. 

Okay. Are you open to sharing the other two parts?

Of course. Appreciation, chores or responsibilities is the second part. And the third part is planning for good times, the weekly date, whatever is going to nurture the relationship. Vacations, time, things you do alone that are fun for you and him or her. And then the last part is problems and challenges or issues or concerns. 

I love that. I love that there's the connecting and play that's woven in there as well as the appreciation. There's a good balance. 

Right. I think of it like a roller coaster and appreciate, then the chores. Oh, that's kind of lower energy. And then you have fun again, just planning the good times, and then you deal with the challenges, and then you're kind of gone down again. But then you're up at the end because you have come to a better understanding about things, and you're both feeling valued and loved from the appreciation and more connected because you're both taking the time to connect. 

One of the things that I believe about accountability is that once we put awareness and attention on something, we're more likely to see what is getting in the way, right? When I asked that question around what are the obstacles like I noticed in myself if I have accountability. I'm like, “Oh, I didn't do it.” Or what got in the way. Then I have so much more access to what's hard about that. Or, “Oh, I realize I'm not feeling great, or I'm upset about this thing.” And then there's an opportunity to clear that. 

I'm smiling because I think about how it's wonderful when people are able to do that kind of introspection that you're saying that you do. And not everybody does. “Well, I forgot. I just forgot.” It's great if we can get beyond “I forgot.” Well, maybe I didn't really want to do it. Or maybe I'm holding on to some kind of grudge, or you know, and then you can move on because I forgot it is not really helping you to move along and grow. 

I think that this is why accountability, which you keep recommending, is so powerful that it keeps us connected and more aware. And also, I'm wondering if it is also helping us stay in alignment with our values. 

I think what you're talking about, and I totally agree with, is to be accountable to yourself. Is this the kind of life I want to leave live? Am I being the kind of person that I want to be? Is that what we're being accountable to ourselves when we ask ourselves questions like that, either consciously or unconsciously. 

Yes, and there's a great example I feel like you pointed to a few times in your book where if someone is wanting marriage and relationship like long term, and that's their heart of hearts, and yet they're participating in a relationship that's casual or has been stated, there's no future. Really offering that for contemplation and introspection, right? Help me with this. And you've talked about sometimes people say they want marriage, but they actually don't, or they're ambivalent about it. And other times, people really do want it but their behaviors, for many reasons, aren't in alignment with that.

Right. So many people, including myself, for a long time, are or were ambivalent about getting married. A part of them wants to. A part of them is afraid. And then it's important that in order to get married, we have to get past that, and at least have more than half of us want to get married. Maybe like to go, you know, not, if 40% of you wants to get married, it's 60% of me is afraid that we're going to act out my internal conflict in a relationship by pull calls, and then push away, back and forth. That's what happens when people are still uncertain about how much they really deep down inside want to get married and how the term they are to overcome whatever is getting in their way. 

And do you think that it's helpful for people to have a certain level of self-awareness or done a level of personal growth or work before entering into a relationship? Or would you say it doesn't matter? 

Oh, it probably depends on the person. I mean, if somebody grew up witnessing a good marriage in their parents and kind of learned how to do it and how to get that balance that people have a certain maturity in order to be in a relationship where they honor their partner's needs, as well as their own and put the relationship first, well, then maybe they already have that in place, and they don't need to “work on themselves” or have a lot of therapy before they get married. 

On the other hand, the people that are noticing that they're not getting what they want in life, especially in terms of their relationship, would require introspection and personal growth in order to get past whatever is getting in their way. 

Right. And this is that alignment, where if we're saying, and we're really truly believing that this is of high value, yet, we're not participating or creating or cultivating that in our life, there's a dissonance there. 

Right. That's right. Yeah. Somebody asked me what's the ideal age to get married. And I said there's no one age. It really depends on at what time people have achieved that level of maturity, where they can create a mutually satisfying, fulfilling relationship.

 I also wonder, when you talked earlier, a moment ago, about historically what marriage has represented or the reasons for it and how that's changed from a society level or historical level, and you're really promoting this equality. I'm wondering if you want to speak to how that strengthens the experience of marriage, or even as a larger, like, collectively, how the institution of marriage, if you will, how that has changed. We could probably spend a whole episode just on that, but I wondered if you wanted to speak to anything around that. 

I think, in general, people do want, especially women, but I think men want this kind of relationship too because it makes both partners happier when the relationship is collaborative. It doesn't mean weighing and measuring how much he got, how much I got, but collaborative, meaning how can we together create a relationship? What's your idea? What's my idea for whatever it is that you're talking about? There has to be now room for both people because when there isn't, then the one who feels left out is not going to be happy. And that's going to contribute to a marriage that has some lacks in it about fulfillment for both people. If one person's unhappy, it's not going to be a good marriage. 

No kidding. It's hard to have a lasting happy relationship because the relationship is two people. And if one person is unhappy or resentful or unfulfilled, you can't have a “we” that's fulfilled. 

Yeah. And the converse is true, too. If you're both coming in feeling like I am happy, for lack of a better word, happy, fulfilled, satisfied, grateful to have this person in my life, both people feel that way. It's just bringing wonderful, terrific energy into the relationship. 

Yes, no kidding. When you talk about just the concept of marriage and helping people perhaps shift their paradigm, when there are two people engaged in this quality of relating, I think it promotes, as you've talked about, so many benefits not only for the individual and the couple but also the family. And then, I would even bargain just people who are exposed to this couple, right? More extended family, community, friends. That there's health there that makes a difference. 

Yes, I think you're talking about the ripple effect. It does ripple. It ripples to the world. I believe it, you know. One little action that we do that is positive. It spreads out all around. 

Is there anything else you want to say around this paradigm, being marriage-minded? Because in a lot of ways, this doesn't feel popular, right? That oh, again, that question of like, is this outdated? Or is this archaic? Or even the pressure to get married, or the accountability to get married is really societally not there or not as present. I just wonder if there's anything else you want to say around being marriage-minded? 

I think that everybody deep down inside yearns to be married. There's a lot of confusion out there, but just recognizing that yearning can go a long way toward learning how to make it happen, getting past the kind of negativity that, as you mentioned, there's a lot of doubts as marriage outdated, and it's not. However, the old expectations, I could say, are outdated. And the newer ones are kind of learning, learning as we go, how to make or create an emotionally and spiritually fulfilling marriage besides, of course, reaping the material benefits of a good marriage. And just knowing that you can do it, knowing that I have it in the book, Marriage-Minded: And A to Z Dating Guide for Lasting Love, it goes through the alphabet. One of the A is awesome to know that you are awesome, you have wonderful qualities, and you can use them to the advantage of yourself and your future marriage partner, or your current one, if you're already married, by gaining the skills and the positive kinds of attitudes that go with knowing that you are able to do this and to do it well. 

And it's almost I feel that there's a redefining of marriage, right? It's not maybe what people expect or have thought about, or what they've seen modeled to them, right? It's almost you're really promoting a new version. It's almost like I wish there were a new word that could encapsulate marriage but also evolve, like Marriage 2.0 being like that. 

Yes, I agree with you. It's almost like a frontier now for a lot of people to change from the old kind of expectations to the newer ones that may still be unconscious, but they're there, and we need to recognize how to fulfill them. 

Well, thank you for what you're doing to support this evolution and supporting people in their journeys. How would you recommend, of course, the book Marriage-Minded? I'll make sure to put that on today's show notes as well as Marriage Meetings, your other book. Is there anything else that you want to encourage people to access/turn towards? 

Well, I think the best thing to do is to keep learning and growing. If you read my book, which you can get just about anywhere, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, online. Ask your bookstore for it. If they don't have it, they should get it for you or even ask your library for it. Because I do feel this is just so important for people and for the world. 

I agree. So again, I'll have the links to those two books on today's show notes. Marcia, you also work with people offering couples counseling, as well as individual counseling. And that's in California. Is that right? 

That's right. Yeah, that's in San Rafael. I am available to do video sessions for people that live far away. There's a lot of video going on now because of COVID, but people are starting to come back into the office. That's good.

If people want to get my newsletter, they can go on my website and sign up for that for free. I write an article every month about marriage, relationships, and communication. That's MarriageMeetings.com. 

And then, you can find the information to sign up for your newsletter and get your articles and material that you publish, as well as contact information if they're interested in working with you directly. 

Well, thank you, Jessica. 

Well, thank you for sharing your valuable time and your wealth of knowledge with us here today. 

It's been my pleasure to be here. 

Signing Off

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