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Every one of us struggles with something that impacts our relationships. We were raised to believe that whatever we struggle with—be it self-worth, emotions, or body image—is a flaw.

Despite the fact that we are heavily influenced by our society, we are taught that we are all unique individuals who have the power to make our own decisions.

In this episode, Dr. Jennifer Gunsaullus discusses how to recognize our thoughts, beliefs, and emotions as well as how to practice being mindful of them. She urges everyone to venture a little further outside of their comfort zones and develop their mental and emotional fortitude so they can begin to make decisions they never had before.

Jennifer Gunsaullus, PhD, is a sociologist, international intimacy speaker, and relationship and communication coach, and the author of From Madness to Mindfulness: Reinventing Sex for Women. Dr. Jenn has presented two TEDx Talks, co-hosts the podcast Sex Talk with Clint & the Doc, and she has collaborated on projects with Planned Parenthood, the Global YPO Spouse/Partner Network, Erica Lust films, and Dr. Ruth’s Sex for Dummies book.

In this Episode

5:50 How Dr. Jen became interested in sexuality and mindfulness.

7:49 Why is mindful intimacy so crucial? 

20:43 Obstacles to profound intimacy and how mindfulness overcomes them.

47:48 A practical step you can take to begin engaging in mindful intimacy.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Be patient, understanding, and gentle with yourself. Know that you are worthy of love.
• Take a moment to consciously reflect on the self-deprecating thoughts, feelings of discomfort, and embarrassment you are harboring.
• Recognize and experience the feelings, beliefs, and thoughts you have been avoiding for a long time. Stay present with them, even for five seconds to build mental and emotional resilience.
• Expand your comfort zone a little bit, but do it carefully.

Mentioned

From Madness to Mindfulness: Reinventing Sex for Women (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Sex Talk with Clint & the Doc Podcast

American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counsellors and Therapists (AASECT)

Sex, Consent, & Gender – A Personal Story about Consent Violation – Sex & the Price of Masculinity

Female sexual shame hurts us all | Jennifer Gunsaullus | TEDx Phoenixville

Relationship Map To Happy, Lasting Love

Connect with Dr. Jennifer Gunsaullus

Website: drjennsden.com

Facebook: facebook.com/jennifer.gunsaullus

Twitter: twitter.com/drjennsden

YouTube: youtube.com/user/drjennsden

Instagram: instagram.com/drjennsden

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About Today's Show

Jennifer, thank you so much for joining us here today.

Yeah, my pleasure. I'm excited to jump in

Me too. I can tell just already how much zest and spank you have. It's refreshing. Especially when we talk about topics where people have experienced a lot of difficulty with whether or not it's messages they've received along the way, and so sometimes this can be serious in nature, and it doesn't have to be. So, I like that you bring lightness. And before we dive into our topic, and we're going to be talking about mindful intimacy, I want to just have an opportunity to get to know you a little bit better. What got you interested in really targeting this specific topic?

Yeah. I mean, so sex in general, I got into that field or started studying that and speaking about it back when I was, this was 28, 29 years ago when I was an undergrad back in Pennsylvania. I live in San Diego now. But back at Lehigh University. My roommate was a sexual health peer educator. You go around to the dorms in the residence halls. You do safer sex talks, condom demonstrations and negotiation, stuff like that. She was just having a lot of fun with the group. They taught you public speaking skills. She had to stand in front of a room. 

And that's actually, between the topic being like, “Well, it'd be fun to talk about sex.” and to build a stand in front of a room and talk about a really uncomfortable topic but learn skills while you're at it. I figured, “Well, that will certainly help me with my future even just giving presentations in my college classes.” I didn't expect to be so then interested in the topic and kind of what makes people tick around sex and our socialization around it and our gender socialization and what we learn is “normal” about sex and what's not and how people make decisions or a lot of lack of decisions that are made. 

There's just so much complexity around it. So, I just became really fascinated about that. And then moved forward and got my Ph.D. in Sociology and just was more involved with sexual health. My dissertation had to do with HIV prevention programs. Then, I got involved with the Vagina Monologues, which is around activism and acting and directing that. So yeah, many different components of sexuality, sex, sexual health, gender socialization, and speaking out around it, and trying to reduce shame and give people voice and empowerment. It's been an interesting path ever since then.

No kidding. I am in this moment, really appreciating your background in sociology because a lot of psychologists will really speak on topics as it relates to relationships and sexuality and personal growth. I think there is such a social context to what we experienced and how we're shaped. Would you like to speak about that for people? 

Well, it's funny. When I first started going to AASECT conferences, which is the American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counsellors, and Therapists. That's kind of one of the main organizing bodies around sexuality topics in the United States with professionals. I started going, gosh, I don't know. Oh, boy, 18 years ago. I'm trying to think of the first time I went. 

I remember sitting in some workshops and keynotes and all, and people are talking about this sort of cutting-edge ideas. And I was like, “Oh, that's not cutting edge. That's called sociology.” I was like, “That's what we do.” And I was like, “Oh, interesting. These are very separate fields.” And that's not being informed. 

And for me, obviously, I was indoctrinated into that way of viewing the world. I mean, from birth, we are being shaped by the cultural, religious, and gendered racial expectations and beliefs of others. And that informs what we learn is right and wrong, how we learn to view ourselves, what we like about ourselves, what we don't, how we interpret our bodies, how we interpret sexual situations, relationships, emotions, all of those things. They can't “not” mix with our genetic personalities in the context of our childhoods, so we are not sexual beings outside of the context of the society and culture and families we were raised in.

No kidding. And even as you're describing this, I know it's not a novel idea, but that a lot of times, when it's the context in which we've been raised, we don't question it. So, a lot of times–.

We don't know. That is what's “normal” to us and natural.

We don't question. It's kind of unconscious, if you will, that we just don't have a lot of awareness around that. From your vantage point, how much of the work is really illuminating helping people think about these influences and how they shape us?

Yeah. And give me like a context that you're asking that question in.

Well, I guess what I'm experiencing as you're describing all the different layers of how we begin to know ourselves and we can remove ourselves from the social context. And a lot of that, if we don't question it, isn't necessarily on top of mind or even fully conscious. And so, when someone like you is naming the influences and helping bring attention and awareness and identifying that sometimes just that awareness can be incredibly helpful. I guess I'm curious, how much do you think that that is? 

Yeah, absolutely. Because I think because we're so weird about sex in our society, and we're so much a product of our society yet, we are taught to believe that we're all individuals and that we come up with our own thoughts on things, which I think there are bits of that. But, right, we can't separate ourselves out from that. And all of us pretty much struggle with something, whether it is self-esteem, or insecurities, or our emotions, or our body and our body images, or erections, or orgasm, or something. 

And often we think, or we've been trained to think that that's our individual flaw or that we're broken, or there's something wrong with us in some way instead. When somebody helps you reflect, it would be like, “Well, so how did your beliefs about all of these topics? How are they shaped?” And your experiences are shaped by your family, your religion, the town you grew up in, your sex education or lack of it, your early experiences, all of these things that we don't have any control over.

And I would say media too. 

Oh, yes. Massive media, yes. Yes, of course. I mean, right. But I'm going like old-school stuff. But yes, today, particularly, the massive impact of social media, TikTok. Honestly, our brains are just being shaped by the little ding on our phones and reacting to that. It's sort of endless, the impact that it all has on us. Advertisements, all of it. They very much shape our reality, even if we don't think they are. They can't not because they're teaching us what's right and wrong, what's liked, what's not like, what's valuable, what's not valuable. And therefore, we can't help but then understand ourselves and those around us through that lens. 

For sure. 

So, yeah. But yeah, when somebody's like, “Wow, of all these factors, what do you remember learning about these growing up? What were your first experiences with any of these aspects around sex and bodies and relationships?” And then for folks to be like, “Oh, I totally learned that from that person in this situation. I just made up that story for myself. But like, I thought that was true.” 

I say it in that way of making up the story because then we can realize we are like, “Oh, we've inherited stories from society and others, and then we make them our own. And then we think that's true, and not realize, we've got other choices. Once we realize that, when we've got a product of that, we can start to realize, “Oh, what do I want to rewrite this?” Nothing else. Let me try on a new story and see how those changes what's possible for me.

No kidding. And Jennifer, I can just say, as I sit here with you now, just my own development. I grew up in a pretty progressive family where sex wasn't necessarily super hidden or shamed or all those taboos and negativity. And still, it is so interesting to me, growing up in the United States around, how the images of sexuality can be very exploited. 

And then the dialogue can be very private and intimate and almost hidden, that when you talk about what's normal and perhaps what is over-sexualized, and we might identify or kind of consider ourselves with and then we don't have a lot of other educational or even dialogue that you're describing to really find myself and find my voice that it can be a really easy place to judge, right. 

And this is what you're saying around where we get what's right, what's wrong or what's attractive and not attractive. It's so not binary. Right? There's so much spectrum of beauty and expression. And yet, we don't have access to that usually on a larger scale or just more like in the dialogue and the narrative around it.

Yeah. I think the big piece of what's missing, like in how you presented that there is that we will plaster sort of sexualized images or even sexual content. And so, it's this very, sort of visual, visceral, physical aspect of bodies and sex. And the main piece that's missing, though, is this real heart and this real vulnerability of what it is to be a body in 2022 in our society, and to be a sexual body and being and our needs and wants and desires and insecurities and fears and how vulnerable it is just to get naked with another human being and the sounds that our bodies make, and all of those things that are so vulnerable, like, so socially awkward. Much of our presentation of sex is so detached from that. Yeah, it's missing the heart and awkwardness of the true experience for all of us in one way or another.

Yes. And even as you say this right here, I can feel my heart responding to you. I can recognize even when I was talking about this contrast of over-sexualized or even exploited and objectified. If I can take that one step further, based on what you're saying, it's a part of the whole, but it's a part that's being exaggerated or exemplified and then hidden and then perhaps private, not really having a lot of access to the dialogue. It is so physical. It's so visceral and image. And I love that you're really inviting the multi-dimensions of humanity, a human being.

Yes! Which we all are. It's messy for all of us. 

Yeah. 

But that's scary. 

It is scary. It is scary. And it reminds me in your book, you were talking about the HIV preventative education and process, and it sounded like there was a piece of that where it wasn't so much about helping women say no. It was really helping them really look at their self-care or their self-worth.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So yeah. The introduction to my book, From Madness to Mindfulness: Reinventing Sex for Women. In the intro, I talk about why I am even writing this book and what my process was. So, what you're referring to is my dissertation research I did around New York State on HIV prevention programs targeting adult women because I had been doing sexual health education on college campuses, two different college campuses. 

I asked the educators that I interviewed around the state. Like, if you had five minutes to only emphasize one thing with an audience of women. I mean, this was like 20 years ago. I was doing this research in the early 2000s. What one thing would you emphasize or talk about? And from my training around sexuality with college students, it was like, you know, “Put a condom on. Protect yourself in some way. Don't exchange bodily fluids in a way that puts you at risk.” But the majority of these educators, and most of them were African Americans, Latina, Asian immigrants, and Native Americans. They said, love yourself, take care of yourself. Prioritize yourself. That's what they were telling these women this message. 

At first, I'm an academic. I was like, “How's that going to help them avoid the spread of HIV?” And I was like, “Oh, my gosh. Of course. Fundamentally, we don't think we are worthy of taking care of ourselves. If we don't love ourselves, and love ourselves in all of our messiness, and beauty and flaws and imperfections as we are as humans, and have that as a fundamental grounding for ourselves, like advocating for condom use, is really freaking hard. And asking for your needs at all is really freaking hard. And so, for so many of these women that these educators were talking to, nobody had ever told them that they were worthy of taking care of themselves or loving themselves. 

Or, worst, setting a boundary.

Yes! Yes! That there are boundaries. They're worth setting the boundaries. I mean, certainly, that's very complex depending on what settings they're in, but to know that even is possible and that as a starting point, like you are worthy. You're totally worthy of taking care of yourself. That's a really profound starting place, especially for many women in our society, and around their boundaries and self-care with their bodies and their sexual interactions with others. 

I mean, it's complicated. We want to be seen. We want to be liked. We want to be loved. Many of us were taught, “Don't rock the boat. Don't make someone else feel uncomfortable.” But boy, does that get complicated in the sexual realm without clear communication and without respect going both directions.

Exactly. And I was going to tie that in and that whether or not someone's feeling the performance or whatever it is when two individuals are coming together that there can be all of these pressures or desires to please or performance anxieties on either person. 

And that when you're talking about vulnerability and the awkwardness and the messiness and the stuff that like, maybe we don't really ever see that it's okay or nothing outside of us has ever said that's healthy, that's okay. Or that's normal. We're naked. Not only emotionally, but physically and all of it that we have two individuals, and when we can have and enter into that space with that care, that self-regard, that self-worth, that's a whole different way of relating, I imagine.

Yeah. Yes. It's a process. For many of us, it's a lifetime journey pulling back the layers, but just having that foundational starting point of knowing that you're worth fighting for, you're worth taking care of. Yeah, it's really powerful.

How does this fit? How might we start talking here about mindful intimacy?

Yeah. Yeah, it's a perfect starting point. My specialty area, my dissertation, and my book, and all are folks who are assigned female at birth. And so, we're raised as girls, and then as adults, identify as women. That's a host of messaging, in a deep way that's been taught to you from a really young age. And then, as adults, trying to be a sexually active, fulfilled, happy, expressed woman, like, that's complicated when you've been raised with all of those messages. 

And so, that basis of taking care of ourselves, prioritizing ourselves, and knowing that we're worthy is a really important starting point. And so, what I teach women is, first of all, like that sociological piece of like, mindfully reflecting, like, Okay, what truths are you carrying with you about yourself? And where did you learn them? And so, for me, that's sort of an applied mindfulness activity because you're sitting with, “Okay, what discomfort are you carrying? What shame are you carrying? What embarrassment are you carrying? What negative messages about yourself, you know, attuning to that, because you feel it inside you often like in our chest, and in our solar plexus, and down in our belly, or we can feel even a constriction in our throat. Like, it just doesn't feel good. 

We avoid those topics, but then that keeps us stuck in place. It forms a barrier to the type of deep intimacy most of us really want. So, starting with what did you learn? Where did you learn that? Where's that still living inside of you? That piece of where it lives inside of you, that, to me, is incredibly profound, like what I was just saying because shame and embarrassment feel awful. Shame, in particular, makes us want to put our heads in the sand and avoid a topic. 

And so, learning how to build comfort with discomfort, that physical discomfort when you pause, and really sit with something that feels shameful to you about your body, or an experience you've had or a belief you have about yourself, or something you've done. We avoid that, or we numb it. We lash out at somebody. We retreat into ourselves. We grab our phones and scroll through social media. We smoke pot or weed and take a drink, something to not have to feel that. 

That's what I'm teaching women in my book and in my work overall. I teach people how to actually identify the thoughts, the beliefs, the emotions, where they feel them inside them, and then learn to stay present with them. Even if it's just five seconds initially, that is five seconds of you staying present with something that you have been avoiding for a really long time. And over time, when you can sit with it a little longer, you're like, “Okay, this feels awful, but I'm not going to die.” 

You breathe into it. And then you create space that you didn't have before. And in that space, then you can start making new choices for yourself of something that's a healthier way to react, something that is communicative in a vulnerable way that you've never done before. I mean, so many different directions, we can go with it. But basically, you have a choice where you didn't have a choice before. And to me, that is the epitome of empowerment.

No kidding. And you're talking about the barrier, that it's almost as if we're under this false illusion, that if we're numbing or we're not turning towards or blocking it, that our significant other or that somehow, we're doing a good job of keeping it out of the dynamic. And that's actually not the case at all. Any time I'll raise my hand right here and say, ” I expose my vulnerability, and I reveal the parts that don't feel lovable or feel shameful or feel terrified to share.” That's exactly the place that cultivates the deeper levels of intimacy that I don't think I would have access to if I hadn't taken that risk.

Beautifully stated. Yes. And it's a risk. It's definitely a risk. Do it with people we trust. We need to start with ourselves and looking at it, and so like journaling on these topics, all the stuff I was talking about like grabbing a piece of paper. I do think pen and paper are better than typing it into technology. And getting clear on that, is that something you want to share with a partner. That's a way to do it responsibly. They are like, “Hey, I just wrote this thing out. I'm going to read it to you, and then I'm going to walk away for five minutes because I'm not even going to be able to look at you. It's going to feel awful.” And then say, please, just be kind to me because this is really hard.

I can feel the weep inside me of what a risk that is to like that. The thing that we've told is not okay. The thing that we have avoided and numbed, and you're saying, just even five seconds, five minutes to have greater awareness and contact to not turn away. And did then show that to someone?

I know. Yeah. But given them that context to be like, “Hey, so I'm doing this thing here. I'm trying something new. This is really, really hard. Can you just be quiet and listen? Because this isn't about you, this is definitely about me and my shit. I know this is getting in the way of our relationship.” I think that's helpful because often, right, you have a partner, and they're like, “Oh, shit. What am I supposed to do here?” And then give them a job. Your job is if you could just be quiet and listen. And then we don't even have to talk about it right now. Like, I just need to say this. Like, I know, I could feel it in my heart as I'm saying it. It's like this scared, weepy, vulnerable feeling in my chest right now. You were just talking about doing that. Yeah.

What's beautiful and we have working with us and in our favor is the natural empathy. Right? I think what was happening to me as I was listening to you was that “Oh!” I felt like I wanted to lean in. And I was responding. 

I started feeling that too. And then I was like, “Oh, I can feel it all.” That was beautiful.

Yes. And that's likely what will happen when someone or whoever. We just met. 

Yeah. Yep. 

And it was someone who loves you. 

Yeah, yes. 

And you're not blaming. You're not attacking. You're not making the other person wrong or bad. You're saying here's me.

Yeah. You're good.

There are no bigger gifts than that. 

Yes, yes. And again, like, some people aren't worthy. Brené Brown talks about that. When we're going to share our shames and our vulnerabilities, we need to choose who we're going to share them with. And that's a shitty thing for some folks. So, to realize, like, wow, if I say this with my partner, they're probably going to use it against me. And that suck. And that is like, “I get why you don't want to share that.” And that's something to reflect on. Can you and your partner work on improving your relationship or talking to somebody about something, going through a workbook together, something so that you can build that safety? 

Yes. Thank you for saying that. 

If you're going to choose to stay in this relationship or if you don't feel like you have a choice, oh, at least something to help build greater safety and then greater intimacy. 

So, there's a good reason why perhaps one is protecting themselves and not revealing these parts because it is safer. And if it isn't safe, then perhaps that isn't the best move or step at that moment. And maybe the best move is cultivating safety. Because look, the thing that also was coming up for me was coming into contact with one's experience. Trauma might be there, too, right? That's very likely that many of us have experienced some form of trauma as it relates to sexuality. And so, having that safety is paramount. Do you want to speak to that at all?

Well, yeah, in the mindfulness aspect. Because mindfulness is incredibly beneficial, and if you're learning to sit with the discomfort of some particularly deep trauma that you actually have not been in therapy or counseling around before, that actually could be detrimental for you, right? Because people end up having breakdowns, people end up falling off the wagon, all sorts of stuff if they don't have a support network or a professional working with them in it. 

I'm a big advocate of folks pushing themselves out of their comfort zone. It's that sweet spot right outside the comfort zone of discomfort. Like we get too far out of that. And that's when we further traumatize ourselves, or we traumatize others, or we can really make some poor decisions that are not good for ourselves. That's a fine line that's different for everybody. So, I will say, but yeah, push yourself, but you got to be mindful. And then notice, okay, am I truly just making excuses because this is really hard, or is this really hard and actually unsafe? 

At this point, I have about 18 years since I first started studying mindfulness. And those types of things wouldn't have made sense to me 18 years ago, but now they do because I can feel those distinctions in my emotions and where my boundaries are. I have a really hard project that I'm working on, a writing project, and it hurts my brain, and it's emotionally uncomfortable and all. I was like, “It's eight o'clock at night.” I said, “I had this deadline for myself.” And I was like, “But Stranger Things is on, and I really want to watch that.” I'll watch that myself. 

And I was like, “Well, where are you in your menstrual cycle? How well have you been sleeping? Should you give yourself a night off to something like that?” Or “No, you just don't want to do the hard thing.” And I need to make myself do the hard thing. And that's, again, a lifelong kind of journey for me to understand those nuances in myself because our emotions come and go all the time. 

I like to talk about waves in the ocean. If we always make our decisions at the whim of how we feel at any one moment, our emotions are just out of our control. Relate it to sleep and our menstrual cycle and, how much we ate, how recently we ate, what we ate, how well hydrated we are. Somebody's hurt our feelings recently. What social media do we look at? What's happening in the world? What's happening? It's endless. When we make decisions based on that, I think in the long run, we're not that happy because we're just at the whim of shit from the moment. 

Reacting. 

Reacting, exactly. Thank you. That's reacting instead of this big picture of looking at choice. And be like, “Wait, well, but what am I committed to for myself, for my big picture well-being, and for my advancement and who I want to be or getting a better job or advancing my career, and those much bigger picture commitments that I've chosen for myself, but from moment to moment, don't feel fun.” I think that distinction of right this is being at choice versus just being reactive. We can learn to discern those differences in us.

Well, and it sounds as though there's a level of being awake to the purpose, the vision, or the goal. And also, the tendency that lives in us as humans to avoid pain. Even with the level of development that you're speaking about in the practice as you can still feel the pull. That would be fine, and that's not so fun. 

It's not fun, and that's uncomfortable.

Yeah. Right. And we're going to feel that pull. And so, to have awake awareness is huge. That gives you the almost meta-thinking or the meta-awareness, to not just be reactive or compulsive, if you will to make the bigger choice in service of the thing in the long-term goal of what you're trying to accomplish. 

Yes! And that is how we build mental and emotional resilience. Which then we are as life piles on heavier and heavier things, that time that we just don't have any control over. I've known for me that I can handle them better. And I trust myself to handle it better because I've made those distinctions. I've learned how to sit with discomfort, mental and emotional discomfort, which then ups the game. Because resilience doesn't come from like stuffing shit down in a box and avoiding it until it rears its ugly head at times. It comes from really being with something and gaining skills and knowledge and myself in that. And then I build, I think, a tolerance to the discomfort that comes from strength, not from avoidance and from fear.

Yeah, thank you. There are so many profound benefits to what you're describing. And I realized a moment ago that I jumped to the choice of sharing with a significant other or partner. And that is an additional part around how we might communicate with our person. And yet everything that's happening internally is still a choice. And we're talking about the safety of potentially sharing something very vulnerable with a significant other. And I also am aware that, in my experience, it's still being witnessed and felt even if I don't say anything. I wonder if we'd go back to sex. Yeah. Like, there's this part of me of like, who was I fooling to think that oh, I made that not okay. And I didn't vocalize it, but it was still present.

Yes, that's so good, right? Even if you've stuffed it down in a little box, and you think we're good, right? There's stuff in here. I remembered years ago. A client used this analogy with me. Like, all the shit that we like to pretend isn't in our lives that we're fine with. It's like we're driving in a car, and they're just in the backseat. We're like, “I can't see him. Everything's good. Nobody can see me.” But then, for some reason, you have to slam the brakes on, and they come in, they just splattered all over the front windshield, and you're like, “Oh, right, that's all there. And now I've got quite a mess to clean up.” 

Right. Or the person that comes in your passenger seat is like, “What's all this? I saw this in the back.” And you're like, “What are you talking about?”

Go back there. We're fine. And then, they get covered in your shit. And you're like, “Wow. Sorry. I really hurt you in this process. I didn't even realize how much was back there.” Yeah, it's still impacting, right? If you shame around something that you're carrying. 

The numbness. 

Numbness, something. Right? Avoidance, fear, shitty beliefs about yourself, stories that you're telling yourself. That impacts how you show up for another human being. And then it impacts how they show up for you. 

Totally. 

And because we can't help but feed off of each other. Yeah, I'm trying to think of a specific example. But I know there's been times where like, something's come up, and I'm sharing it like with a partner, like, yeah, I just like I kind of had this realization about something. He goes, “Yeah, I was kind of wondering about that.” 

Exactly.

I was like, really? And he goes, “Oh, yeah, no, like, on our second date, this topic came up, and you just shut it down.” So I was like, “Okay. I guess we're not talking about that.” “Oh, shut the hell up.” And he goes, “Yeah, Nope, just made me kind of walk on eggshells.” I was like, “What?” I was like, “Oh, my God. I totally didn't realize that.” And then, he totally picked up on it but was like, “Clearly, we can't talk about this.” And then, it impacted him and his ability to be intimate with me and his ability to show up for me because I had put a wall up unwittingly. So I was like, “Yeah, that was… yeah.” 

Eye-opening. 

Profound. Yeah. And to be like, yeah, all this stuff. It's there. And if we have partners, ideally, who care about us and are attuned to us, like they're picking up on something. They don't know.

What it is, yeah. 

But they know, you know, something is maybe blocking you from fully showing up. 

Well, I can even just bring another example. It's not super specific because I'm just not wanting to reveal all the things. In a sexual space, if I've been tight in my body around something, and my husband has felt it or he's responded in a certain way, right? Which is totally this what you're describing like it's felt. Even if I'm not in a position where I'm even awake to it or aware of it, it's impacting, and it's alive in the interaction versus perhaps when I am a little bit more embodied or feel more space in that particular area. I'm not even thinking of a particular body part. I'm just like. How he might respond, it's like a welcoming cue, right? When you think about someone who's relaxed and open and more spacious, or even is able to be present themselves, right? It's like, okay, I see you. Just kind of wanting to engage, but if it's tight, it's the no-go. It's like writing warning signs a little bit.

Yeah, yeah, it is. Which is lovely, right? Because we do want our partners to be very attuned to that type of stuff. But then also ideally, we can then be like, “Oh, wait. What is that for me?” Can I be responsible for it because, frankly, it is most likely in the big picture getting in the way of your fulfillment, your happiness, your depth of connection, your longevity with somebody and this depth of intimacy of really being seen and known and acknowledged and accepted for who you are and all your human beauty and messiness that we all profoundly want as humans, and it's probably interfering with that in some way? 

So, being very gentle with yourself and being like, “Oh, what is going on here?” And maybe inviting your partner into a conversation. Again, if the safety and trust are there to be like, “Hey, what do you see from your side around this?” Oh, I was just going to say some of these take a long time. It's a lot of pulling back layers and really being kind and compassionate and gentle to yourselves and doing it in small amounts and being like, “Oh, I'm about to lose my shit. Can we table this for next week? We'll get back to this, but like right now, I need a break from this.”

Well, let me just think. When there's more awareness, we have the capacity to have more of this gentleness that you're describing. The pacing and we know how to be sensitive. And that, again, cues a clear signal to one's partner that this would be helpful, and even conversely, I'll just say, again, if my significant others are willing to show me some of these parts. It's so refreshing and so hopeful because I could be feeling something that's like a no go or what's weird about like, not weird, but like, why is this tense? Why is this hard? And not understanding the why.

We can make it about ourselves then. They're not happy with me. What did I do? Is something wrong? I did gain five pounds. We can't not. Like it goes to all of our insecurities also. And then, the same thing may be happening to our partners. They're like, “Oh shit. Is it me?” 

Did I touch you wrong? Yeah. Jennifer, I'm just so aware as we're going back and forth here. This is significant. And what we're describing in the way of mindfulness and what it is. I recognize one of the things you're probably counteracting or having to counteract is people's notions or associations around what mindfulness is like, “Oh, I need to go do a little bit of affirmations and meditation. I've not been meditating, is it? Incredible, but just not what you're saying.

No. Well, I know it's funny because I remember this is maybe two years ago, or something. My real passion is travel and public speaking, which I've now been able to really start doing at an international level. A couple of years ago, there was a group, and I was like, “Well, my specialty here is mindful intimacy.” And they're like, “Yeah, mindfulness. Yeah, we've done that.” And I was like, “Yeah, no. I'm pretty sure you haven't. I'm pretty sure you haven't.” 

I mean, I love that mindfulness has become mainstream, but it's become a buzzword. And for some people, mindfulness just means focusing deeply on something. For other people, it means feeling good. And so, the focus is an important part of it. It is definitely not about feeling good, which you could probably tell by how jacked up. Mindfulness is really training ourselves to be with whatever is showing up in one moment inside of us and outside of us, and then not reacting to it and being kind to ourselves in the process. And, not adding judges to ourselves or judgment to others, and just this almost like sort of neutral observation, and then making choices from that place. 

I mean, everything I've been talking about. It feels so uncomfortable. We've trained ourselves not to be present because it feels icky. It's learning to override that and stay present with something. And right, the depth of what we've been talking about here, there's so many ways that it applies. The research shows, like, there was a Harvard research study a few years back that found, I believe it was in like diaries and prompts that they had on folks phones throughout the day, over a long time period, they wanted to see how often folks minds were just sort of wandering, and not present at least focused on some sort of task. They were just wandering. And they found that was about 47% of the time, and that the more folks minds were just sort of on automatic pilot and not being harnessed, people are less happy. That's what our brains do. 

And then, let alone, you attach it to our deepest insecurities, and aspects of worthiness and wanting to be seen and be in relationship with others, reenacting the patterns of our childhood and what we learned from our parents because we can't help because we're socialized into that. And all of those things that are just automatic in us learning to undo that stuff. And those patterns. It's uncomfortable. It's uncomfortable to see that stuff in ourselves. Yeah.

Well, I appreciate it too earlier. You were saying it's like a muscle, and I can definitely feel that inside myself that there are times where I feel like I'm not necessarily white knuckling it, but to be honest, I'm not entirely sure that I am confident that I got it. Like it's asking a lot of me to stay grounded, right, when it's triggering or all kinds of stuff. And it's like, okay, here we are, here I am. And I'm breathing, and it's being able to tolerate that. That allows me to grow that muscle, but I tried to tell people that my knees shake, my throat clenches, and my gut is a notch. I mean, I believe in the process a little more because I've worked it a lot. And the other thing what you're talking a bit about is just our automatic monkey brain or the repetitive thoughts that I think they say 90% of our thinking is the thoughts that we've previously had.

Had. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they're not new thoughts. Yeah.

They even put that with sex. And I'm like, how many times and I can even raise my hand, how easy this feels to just do what works rather than really being in the presencing. It's like with a partner. If you've had a history with them, it's like, yeah, we know what works, and we can get into that routine of it. But that's not necessarily super embodied or alive or mindful. Not to say it's bad, but it's what we're talking about.

Right. And there's a time and place for that. You're like, I'm tired. I don't want to connect. We know what works. It's not bad. I do want to throw in since we were sort of talking about brain stuff. I don't want anybody out there, sort of like beating themselves up around, but this is literally how our brains are wired towards efficiency. Whatever patterns we've learned along the way, some of them were just trained into us by our families and environments and society. 

That's just what's efficient in our brain, and everything we're talking about is doing the thing that's inefficient, which hurts and it's hard, and it's tiring, and our brains hurt, and our hearts hurt. Right? So, it is like training for a marathon or something. It's building muscle. You are retraining your brain and retraining your emotions. 

That's a great analogy.

It takes time. It takes energy. I sometimes use the analogy of like you're in a dense jungle, say down in South America and see you've got this like, five-foot-wide paved road through this jungle. Like those are our efficient neuro pathways. You're like, “No problem here.” Like, “I was good, totally unobstructed.” And I'm asking you to take a machete when you're practicing mindfulness in uncomfortable triggering shameful whatever topics and start, like bushwhacking with a machete. It takes effort. It's hard. 

And as soon as you're not paying attention, or mindful, or you didn't sleep well, or your PMSing or you're pregnant, or your partner wasn't nice to you, or you didn't eat recently, you're back on that paved path, and they're like, “Son-of-a-bitch, how did I get back on here?” That is just what our brains do because they are trained for efficiency. So, it's no personal fault of your own. It's just how brains work. Once we know that, we could be like, “Okay, let me start bushwhacking again.”

Right. Because what's perhaps on the other side of that bushwhacking?

Yeah. Oh, that's good. Right. Like, why? What are you getting to? You're getting to this like, “I don't know. This beautiful oasis with a pool and like Piña Coladas and like beautiful people that love you and see you for who you are and have meaningful conversations.” I never thought about that part of that. Thank you. Because I'm just like, “Yeah, it's hard.” And you got to want to do it. That's what I could be too much of, like the buzzkill sociologist versus like, what are you working towards? That's good.

Well, it's both true. 

No, no, that was very helpful. I was like, right. I sometimes forget that.

But I'm having a blast with you. And I realize we're getting close to our time. I just want to ask, is there anything you want to invite people to potentially work with or practice as a first step or something? 

Yeah, I mean, I'm going to take this back to where we started talking about this sociological, like the context of your upbringing, and what you learned and what your beliefs are, especially as they're tied to maybe some heavier stories that you carry about yourself or heavier, more uncomfortable emotions. And like, just like set a timer, spend 20 minutes and just write, you know, what did I learn about sex growing up? What did I learn about bodies? What did I learn about gender? What did I learn about masturbation? What did I learn about my body? And look, where they did that? Do they feel positive? Do they feel negative? Do you want to hold on to some of these because they're good for you? 

Some of them you want to let go of. Just that as a starting point. And, you know, being nice to yourself in the process. And then maybe there's somebody you trust that you could share with, maybe you have a friend or maybe your partner or something that wants to do the same process for themselves. And then you both just sit quietly and listen to the other one as you read out loud what you wrote. And talk about, you're like, “Well, yeah, that felt uncomfortable.” And even see, if you feel that feel uncomfortable in your chest, in your throat, in your solar plexus, down in your belly. Did your muscles get tense? Was your heart beating? Do you feel warm? Oh, that's amazing bodily wisdom and feedback that we can learn to attune to and befriend as the valuable messages that it is. And then learn to build comfort with that. So yeah, that's my suggestion. 

I love that. 

Oh, and be nice too. Then, do something. Do something that feels that I'm going to say, not pouring a glass of wine. I'm going to say something that is really like then go for a walk together, then watch a fun show together. Then read a book that you've been wanting to do. Do something that's really self-nurturing for yourself because you've just asked yourself to override your protective systems for those 20 minutes and make sure something, but I'd like it to be something that's not a numbing specific thing, but something that just feels like you're taking care of yourself.

Thank you, Jennifer. I love that your practice invitation is both doing the thing that you've talked about here today, which is coming into contact even if it feels like a just overarching general. Let me kind of access and unpack some of these just overarching things that I've messages I've received. Or can I use some of my discomforts whether or not it's about a body part or a way I express myself sexually, either through voice or through body or movement or gesture, whatever it is, I feel awkward or tied around, can I use that as a signpost? 

I love your invitation to bring more contact to our awareness around our experience around sex and body. And also, I love that you keep underscoring the resourcing and the gentleness and the kindness and the fun to reward because it is so important to offer that compassion because we need that resource. We need that strength to do the hard thing.

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you.

How can people get in contact with you and what you're offering?

Yeah, my messaging resonates with folks. Please find me online. My main hub for everything is my Dr. Jenn's Den website, which is www.DrJennsDen.com. Honestly, if you just go to like Google and type in any version of Dr. Jenn's Den or In the Den with Dr. Jenn, you'll find my stuff. So, however you want to spell it. Yeah, that's my hub for everything. 

My two TEDx talks, consent violation, personal video that I shared, my book, and my podcast. Literally, years and years of blogs and articles and interviews, videos, and all sorts of stuff are on there. And then, all my social media links are from there. So, I hope folks will find me on Instagram and Twitter, Facebook, whatever. 

Well, it sounds like you're offering a plethora of ways.

There's a lot out there.

Thank you for sharing with us here today. Thank you for what you're doing in the world. And yeah, it's been a pleasure.

Likewise, your questions were lovely, and your presence was tangible. So thank you, I appreciate it.

Signing Off

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