ERP 385: How To Uplevel Value In Relationship — An Interview With Glenn Sandifer

By Posted in - Podcast August 15th, 2023 0 Comments

In today’s complex dating landscape, finding real connections and lasting partnerships has become a tough puzzle to crack. This challenge is particularly pronounced in the context of high-value individuals seeking meaningful relationships while managing their careers and personal growth.

In this episode, Glenn Sandifer and Dr. Jessica Higgins delve into the complexities of this issue, shedding light on actionable strategies that individuals can implement to overcome hurdles and achieve their relationship goals. The conversation emphasizes the importance of self-awareness, the significance of aligning with like-minded individuals, and the value of having mentors and role models to guide one’s journey.

By exploring the depths of these topics, this enlightening conversation offers a roadmap for those striving to create fulfilling relationships and unlock their full potential within the context of modern dating dynamics.

Glenn, a strategist and executive leader with over 20 years of experience, developed The Middle Ground to help professionals understand the roadblocks that often conflict with professional success. He believes that understanding the reasons behind relationship breakdowns is crucial for success in dating and overcoming restarts. Glenn is a Christian, husband, father, HBCU Alumnus, Omega Man, and Viking, residing in Nashville, Tennessee with his wife Takeena and two children.

In this Episode

5:59 From personal experience to professional insight: The journey that inspired the book.

11:42 Categorizing and understanding six types of men and women

16:30 The middle ground paradigm: Departing from extremes for lasting and fulfilling relationships.

21:12 Transforming toxic mindsets: Embracing cooperation, service, and duty in relationships.

26:37 Three phases of development: Building discipline, skill, and leadership.

34:15 The importance of modern women choosing partners who align with their values and goals.

39:42 The dynamics of high-value relationships: Symbiotic connection between high-value men and women.

45:40 Cultivating a supportive network: Nurturing relationships with like-minded and mentors.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

  • Embrace the Long Game: Commit to a journey of personal development and growth, focusing on distinct life phases, from education and skill-building to achieving leadership roles.
  • If past trauma or unresolved issues affect your self-perception and decisions, consider therapy as a way to heal and build a healthier mindset.
  • Discover who you truly are, what you want, and what you qualify for before pursuing a meaningful relationship.
  • Assess potential partners based on their alignment with your goals, values, and relationship priorities, rather than settling or rushing into relationships.
  • Connect with like-minded individuals and mentors who can offer guidance, support, and a positive influence on your personal and relationship journey.
  • Recognize the difference between superficial traits and authentic character when assessing potential partners, and seek those who align with your long-term goals.
  • For men, avoid adopting the “city boy” persona and focus on being authentic, responsible, and dedicated to personal growth. For women, identify and avoid dating the wrong types of men.
  • Cultivate Leadership: Men should focus on becoming leaders rather than just figureheads, aiming to provide value to their communities, families, and partners.
  • Shift from a mindset of seeking numerous options to valuing deeper, more meaningful connections in your relationships.
  • Understand that character traits such as cooperation, support, and shared vision are crucial in successful relationships, and align with a partner who demonstrates these qualities.


The Middle Ground: How To Get Great Dating Outcomes in a Modern World Part 1 (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

The Middle Ground: How To Get Great Dating Outcomes in a Modern World Part 2 (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

The Plumber Joke:

Relationship Map To Happy, Lasting Love

Connect with Glenn Sandifer






Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins






Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 


Email: [email protected]

About Today’s Show

Glenn Sandifer, thank you for being here with us today.

Thank you, Jessica. Thank you to your audience for their time. 

Yeah. Congratulations on your book and what you’ve provided, and being able to deliver a lot of your findings through research and your professional observation, and your high-level position and how you’ve been able to support so, so many people. You said thousands, if I heard you correctly,

Correct, yes. A couple thousand.

Couple thousand, yes. Okay yeah, so you recently wrote a book, it sounds like there’s many parts, and the second part just went to release as we’re speaking. It’s titled Middle Ground, yeah?

Yes, The Middle Ground: How To Get Great Dating Outcomes in a Modern World.

Okay. Would you be willing to share a little bit more about the concept of even the name and the title, and what got you interested also in looking at providing this?

Yeah, so the why behind the book was really simple. I went through a really tough divorce in the early 2010s, late 2000s. From that, I wanted to do a lot of self-reflection, meaning what did I do wrong and what was my part in the breakdown of that relationship? So I spent two years in therapy. In those two years, I determined that a lot of the things that were challenges in our relationship were 100% within my control and were my fault. So I started to blog about relationships. This was the early stages of Facebook, the early stages where you had to get a WordPress website. I was just sending it out to friends, email lists, things like that. I allowed it to gain a little bit of traction. 

I paralleled that experience with me serving in various professional leadership roles, where every time I would have a conversation with someone regarding performance, relationships inevitably came to the front of the discussion. So I said: “All right, I’m not having a good outcome. Other people that I’m managing, leading, and serving are not having a great outcome. What are we missing?” So it led me to conduct research into where I started figuring out where were we from dating in the past, and where are we now, and where would we go? That led us to the theory that at the middle ground, you can get great dating outcomes; they’re 100% in your control. You have to know who you are, and what you want, and what you qualify for, and know with who you qualify for what they want from you. So that’s where I began my journey through the book, and through my conversations and research and just professional observations, saying that there are a lot of people who need this. I can’t call myself, I’m not a professional coach by any means. I’m an executive that has a great career. I said, why not write a book? So I put it together in a format that I believe is digestible to the audience in three parts. Part one and two, both are available, as you stated; they’ve been performing pretty well. But we just wanted to get the conversation going. 

As I launched the book, as I delved into the world where I was hearing the conversation, and I said: Okay, these people really need to have this book out. So we kind of put some gasoline on the efforts, and began really promoting the book, because we didn’t like the toxic messages that were out there. We believe that men and women can have a great relationship outcome by just the four principles that we talked about, but they have to be willing to do the work.

Well, and I hear that in your own journey and testament, not only is it a way to orient and get a lay of the land, so to speak, and have some type of a personal assessment. It sounds like a little bit even strategic, to be able to look at where you fit, I mean you just spelled it out so beautifully. It sounds a little bit logical in helping people have some real clear criteria. It also sounds very heartfelt, that you had a personal, real, reflectional therapy process that allowed you to come into deeper contact with your own way of relating and being, and that’s a full bodied experience.

Correct, yeah. For your audience, I’m a Christian, so I adapt myself to those beliefs of biblical teachings. I believe that a lot of that has formed my successes and my failures, as well as some of the lessons that I’ve learned. So everything that you said is a part of it. It’s about leading with empathy, having empathy for the other party. I say that, as we take a look at it from a strategic standpoint, as a business mind, I say that there are six types of men and six types of women. So in business, we have baby boomers where we market, versus Gen X, Gen Z. So I say that men are typically dating one of six type of women, and women are dating one of the six types of men. I think most men have been all six, at some point in their life; you’ve been one of the six. 

The six, for the audience, for men, are: boys, f-boys, they’re males, guys or dudes, they’re modern men or traditional men, and then they’re high-value men. And what I find is that as men mature and go through their own personal journey of learning, they go into all six of those phases. Women, on the other hand, typically do three, and those three mirror what we see from the men: girls, city girls, they’re gals or chicks, females, women modern or traditional, and then high-value women. 

So from a strategic standpoint, what we talk about is, you have to know where you are as a man before you can pick a woman. I say that only men can be married. So for every man out there that says I’m ready to get married and have a family and have kids, it’s like: Great, you better be a man! Because if you’re a man or below, you’re not ready for the responsibility that comes with that long-term relationship. If you’re a woman and you say you want to be married, I’m like: Great, you better be modern, you better be traditional, or you better be high-value. Because for both groups, you go through your own journey, and you have to learn the compatibility, the cooperation, the consistency, the duty, and the honor, in order to make the relationship work. 

I’m really appreciating what you’re describing. Because so often, I think there’s a cultural collective sense around relationships. Sometimes it’s about the relationship fulfilling, or finding the one. It’s almost like a little bit of a consumer. Not that somebody consciously sets out to consume relationship, but it’s almost like it happens to me. Then as people live, and they develop and they evolve, they recognize it’s so much a reflection of what I’m also contributing to. It sounds like there’s a real invitation to take ownership and really recognize your own journey and development, and that that is going to greatly dictate your success in relationship. That that’s a real honest look that you’re asking people to do.

Yeah. During the research for part one and two specifically, we stumbled into kind of the YouTube relationship space. Part of the reason there was a delay in both is, I was like, I don’t want to get caught up in that. Because I’m in a happy, healthy relationship. I don’t want anyone to think that I’m not and that I ascribe to some of these theories. But I always try to lead with the message that maybe people don’t know that. Because like what you said, there’s a consumerism aspect of the relationship, where it’s about the relationship serving me. 

Free An Affectionate Young Couple Holding Each Other Stock Photo

“Relationships are about service. So if you are going into a relationship with another person, you have to have the mindset for the best outcome, to know that you are there to serve; not to be served, not to be uplifted, not to be supported emotionally or physically or financially. But you are there to be of service to that other person. What are you adding to this individual’s life, and then what are they expecting from you?”

If you start from that scenario, I think it happened to people who were in the relationship space who would get out.

It’s not an easy journey.

It’s not an easy journey, and to get on that journey, then you start to see some parallels to where we are from a societal standpoint. Chapter One of part one of the book, we talk about how we got here; we talk about the differences, in North America and America specifically for the audience, where there was a change in the family dynamic. It was an unintended consequence of policy decisions. In those policy decisions, we literally saw the breakdown of the family, and we have been fighting for us all to have family as the center of our communities. Businesses have shifted, individuals have shifted, governments have shifted, but we have still been trying to play catch-up to the decisions that were made. 

I talk about both of my grandfathers were veterans from World War II. They came back from World War II, they got married to one woman. They brought that woman back from their home states of Mississippi, both from Mississippi, and they brought both of them to the north. They had seven children. They lived on the same street, in the same neighborhood. And they have the outcome of a traditional lifestyle. They worked, they provided, they were respected in the community; they were known in the community. Their children all graduated high school, their children all had great lives and great families and successes. That is a pipe dream in the minds of most men today, because they don’t believe that that outcome is possible. Part of that is, the system isn’t designed for you to have that outcome now.

Right, the demands and what’s required to be able to provide. Not only from a financial standpoint, but just how often people, and myself included, move with the dream, but also what maybe some of the more flexible remote living provides. But also, I’m so grateful you’re saying what you’re saying, because I don’t think people are as cognizant of the downside of the disconnect in family. To just also tie back to what you just said about being of service, part of what I’m sensing from what you’re describing, it’s not so much serving the significant other. It’s serving purpose. It’s serving the connection and the health of that connection. Is that right? 

Yeah, serving the health of the connection would be a fair assessment. If we go back to what we did in part one, in Chapter One, the relationships were local. So we move from perfect example, my two parents on the same street. It was local. So it was who’s in your high school, then it went from high school to your college, then it went from college to your region, then it went from region to your state, state to nation, and nation to international. We are now in an international space where we see so many people, whether they’re the passport bros, whether they’re the passport gals, whether they’re remote working in Abu Dhabi, whether they’re doing whatever. That is the number one desire, and that’s okay. That number one to desire does not line up with a service mentality around a relationship, which leads to the outcomes that we’re seeing with those relationships. You know, if you have a local pool to source from, that’s what you know. But as you look and see where things have grown, the perception of choice versus the reality of having true choice has clouded the judgment of many. 

Free Photo Of Man Kissing Woman  Stock Photo

“Social media has put a lot of people in a false sense of opportunity, where they look over good men or good women that they’d run into every day, because the possibility may potentially be there only if. They come into these if/then statements that lead them to having poor outcomes dating-wise. That’s not what we want.”

We want everyone to have a happy, healthy relationship with one person, with marriage, children, and legacy as a long-term outcome.

Got you, and this brings back one of my initial questions about the name of the book. So often, when I use the term the middle way or middle ground, I’m looking at not trying to be at either end of the spectrum. Is that at all related to what you’re describing? Because it seems to fit right here, right now.

Yeah, the book had a different title. But the reason we changed it to The Middle Ground was simply this. We felt that in the space right now, discussing relationships, outside of counselors, it was my way. I need him to understand what I bring to the table. That I am the table, and if he gets on my program with me, we’ll have a happy life. I need her to submit. I need her to make herself more available and more cooperative. Then when she does that, it’ll be that. So there are two ends of the spectrum. While at the middle ground, what we believe is, let go of those toxic mentalities, let go of the selfishness, get into cooperation, get into service, get into duty, and then you’ll start to see: I really love this person, because this person has really invested in me emotionally. This person understands me, this person listens to me, this person cares about me. It goes past the superficial social media, going on trips, having the wedding day, having the vacations. It goes into the life that you live, the life that you create, and then the legacy on what your community and your local family, and people see. 

Because I mean, if we go with just what the data is, people are not choosing long-term relationships, they are not choosing marriage in general. Because we’re around, if you start looking at some communities, 65% to 70% of divorce rate. So well over half are ending, and then people are experiencing it; you experience it as a child, you experience it as a young adult, you experience it as an adult, and then you’re asked and expected to not repeat the pattern. Nowhere in business do we do that; nowhere in relationships should we do that. But we are doing it today, and I think it’s just continuing to lead us down the choices that the next generations continue to make.

I mean, I imagine we could go on and on about all of the contributing factors that lend to this distancing away from marriage and family in this way you’re describing. That it can feel for some, like, it’s just, A: I don’t believe in the result, to your point, and you’re helping educate people around the results that they can get. So instilling some hope and faith, I imagine. Then also, just how people are like, it’s so much work, and is it even worth it? So I think you’re carving a path and really helping people look at when we can adopt this mindset, it’s generative. It’s life-giving. It’s being able to have this positive cycle that when we show up, we’re of service, we’re contributing to the goodwill, the health, as we’ve talked about, of the bond, of the relationship. But also, the network. You’re talking about, it’s not just the couple. It’s the family, it’s the street, the neighborhood, it’s the community. There’s an interconnection in this way that is really vital for our wellbeing.

Yeah. I would say, you said regenerative, what’s the word you used, and I actually like that. Because you get life out of serving others, versus being exhausted. Now, what we do here in this space from a relationship standpoint, and I’ve been on 100 podcasts in the last six months, everyone keeps telling me from an audience standpoint. You’re right, it’s way too much work. I would rather get a job, get a career, go get my house, go get my car, go get my 401k; travel, have an investment or a side business. I say you want to do all of that, but you don’t want to have a relationship. And whether it’s a partnership, using the language at the varying different levels and types of men and women, whether it’s partnership, whether it’s commitment, whether it’s that structure around that with someone. So you don’t want to share your life with someone. Why? Well, then we go into the reason codes, as I say, what people believe. Well, my parents didn’t work, I’ve never seen a good example. My friends are all unhappy. Every married person that I know is miserable. So why would I even try? I was engaged before. I lived with a guy, or I lived with a girl. I got cheated on. Or God forbid, from a trauma standpoint, someone was abused. All of these reason codes are louder than what we’re talking about here today, about the intimate individual one-on-one connection and all of the fruit that is born out of that investment. 

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“It’s hard work. It’s supposed to be hard work. Because you’re not supposed to be with everyone. You’re supposed to be with one person, and being with one person is hard.”

It’s confronting. To your point, often I’m using the analogy of it’s a mirror, relationship is a mirror. So what gets activated, what comes up is, if you will, a curriculum for developing, and that it can show us some of our blind spots, our insecurities, our old traumas, and things that we haven’t looked at. It can be some of the hardest work in my opinion, and in my experience too. It’s almost as if, Glenn, I don’t know if you’ve ever come across the archetypal hero’s journey. It’s almost as if you’re really wanting people to look at what can come. 

Hero’s journey, or a villain origin story, one of the two. I don’t know. Someone has to be Superman; someone has to be Lex Luthor. No, I mean, there has to be an evolution. You don’t want to be the same person 16 to 26, 26 to 36, 36 to 46, and 46 to 56. Speaking of the journey, what I tell the audience, this is what I tell men. So for 20 years, I have been encouraging and mentoring in different organizations, young men specifically. I say: “Hey, young man, here’s the best advice I can give you, since you all ask this question. If you have a young man in your life, or you are a young man yourself, 18 to 30, put your head down.” What does that mean? I don’t need you chasing women. I don’t need you chasing money. I don’t need you chasing the bank. I don’t need you chasing the streets. I need you committing yourself in three different phases. The first phase is 18 to 22. 18 and 22, it’s college, it’s military, first responders, police. It is job, and it could be trade. So when it’s in one of those areas for four years, for those five different groups. 

There’s a discipline. 

You’re going to submit yourself to someone, and you’re going to have to instill discipline in your life. Because the military won’t have it, first responders’ groups will not have it, your employer will not have it, the college will not have it, and the trades organizations will not have it. So you get from 18 to 22, you’re going to walk out with a degree, you’re going to walk out with a commendation, you’re going to walk out and be asked to re-up in the military, and then things start happening. 

22 to 27 is going to be the proving ground. Now you’re going to move from creating discipline, creating consistency, building a knowledge base, to becoming and developing a high-value skill. I want to talk about the trades. Right now we have a shortage, in every industry that is hands-on or labor-focused, of new employees. The place that does not have it is Uber. Everybody is an Uber driver; I don’t need any more Uber drivers in the market. I need electricians, I need HVAC, I need plumbing. Because the three that I just named, I pay them more money than I pay the guy who cuts my grass or Uber. Because those are high-value, in-demand skills. And if you’re willing to submit yourself to training and apprenticeship, you’re going to get value. I challenge the young man all the time, look online at the cost of going to a trade school, going to college, and then look at the hourly rate coming out of your first year of a trades program, for HVAC, electrician and plumbing, versus entry-level sales, entry-level market coordinator, entry-level business analyst. Not accountant, not financial guru, not any of that stuff, not YouTuber or influencer. What is that? So then between those ages of 22 to 27, you’re going to develop the high-value skill. You will have had about a decade of work. According to the book Outliers, that is where you become an expert. So don’t job-hop, don’t bed-hop, don’t street-hop, don’t chase it. Have fun, but have it responsibly. 

Then what I did not say was, go find someone and get married. Don’t do that, because you’re still in the developmental phase. Then from 27 to 33 is when you get your really first big appointment, where you move from managing just your own little world to a larger program or people. And when you have to do program or people, it forces you to grow up quickly. So you can be managing people for a six-month period and it feels like you’re managing them for six years. Because it’s no longer about just you and your little corner. I have to focus on this program for the larger organization or I have to focus on this group of people that I’ve been given charge over, in any of those five areas that I spoke about earlier. 

So now if you’ve decided to stay in the trades, you’re now a lead; you now may be running your own trucks, you now may be an operation specialist, you have that 10 years’ experience. So in 33, I say: Men, pick your head up, and start looking at around the market. Where are the women doing? Who are the women? What type of woman do you want? You are now a man. You can be traditional or modern, on your way to high-value, who says: I am looking for a woman to come and to be my wife and raise my kids, traditional. Or I am looking for someone who can be a partner on this journey with me, modern. 

Now, to the ladies, does that sound like a better man to go on a date with than the men that you’re going on the date with right now? Just swiping left, swiping right all day. You’re going into Facebook groups, and you’re not getting the outcome that you want. That’s because the men aren’t prepared. So now when you come before this more prepared group of man, now at 33, ladies, whether you’re 24 to 38, you’re not going to act the same way you act. You’re going to be like: Oh okay, he has a plan. He asked me a real question. Okay, he’s not just trying to hook up. He’s developed discipline over the last 30 years, he’s not just trying to hook up. If he just wanted to do that, he would take you out on a date, and he can afford the date; he doesn’t have credit card debt run out, he doesn’t have student loans running on it, he doesn’t live with his mom, he has his own place. 

So then 33 to 36, he makes a buying decision: I am choosing this type of woman. Because I know who I am, I know what I want, and I know what I qualify for. I know who I am; I am a modern man. I know what I want; I want a modern woman. Do I qualify for a modern woman? Finances are good. Career is good. I have a high-value skill behind me, it’s good. I have my own place and my own money. I don’t have kids anywhere. I don’t have any diseases. I have what I call The Discipline, so there is not any concern there, and I am driven towards a goal. 

Free Man Hugging Another Man from Behind Stock Photo

“I tell the young men, at 36, you have to start planning what you want your life at 56 to look like 10 years prior. So you have a 30-year window to plan 56 and on. It sounds like a long time, but it’s not a long time.”

Especially when you make the wrong decision, where you waste time doing boyish things, the boys, when you take time being an f-boy, bed hopping and getting conquest, when you’re a guy who just is kind of there, or when you’re a male who can’t positively and affirmatively assert himself in the world, extract value from the market, and do it in a respectful manner. 

So I think that the journey is going to be a longer journey, but people have to play the long game. These conversations help get people sparking on it. But the other good news is, if you’re already past those dates that I’ve just spoken about, it’s never too late. You can make a pivot, and in a six-month period, change your trajectory, and in 12 months, everyone will reflect and see the change.

Absolutely. I think what you’re describing is really helpful for people to contemplate, given that you’re really emphasizing the long game. So often, we’re looking at the immediacy and what is most readily available. As you mentioned, even comparing to others or even all the options that are available, we can get kind of lost. One of the things, even just to clarify, when you say a buying decision, the way I’m hearing that, some people might be like, what? You’re talking about a person.

Do it, get triggered. 

But what I want to say though, is how I’m framing that is that it’s a significant decision. When we really look at the power of making a decision, what’s at stake, what we’re coming to the table with, the currency which we’re bringing, and also again, the significance, if I’m hearing you, that’s what you’re describing. Right?

Yeah, buying decision. I like the trigger of it. Oh my God, you think I’m being bought? No, I didn’t say you were being bought. But it’s a decision; we make buying decisions all the time.

Yes, we do. I love that you’re owning it.

You are accurate in your statement, to help the audience and anyone who’s listening to this. No, we’re not buying a person. We’re saying that the man is making a buying decision and a woman is agreeing to that decision, because this is something different than what she’s seeing in the market.

She might also be making a buying decision, if we’re talking about the modern.

Yes, so let’s talk about our favorite, the modern woman. Now, modern women, you know what I need you guys to stop doing. I need you to stop with the city boy, your favorite. You know what the city boy is, Jessica. I know you do, and your audience does. City boy has the charisma, he has the confidence, and he has the conversation. He has the three C’s and it’s just like: Oh, I just love being around him. What we say is, he’s swagged out, he’s in shape, he makes enough money, and he’s available when you need him to be available. He doesn’t have The Discipline, but he lays it down on you. So you try to make a buying decision on the city boy or the f-boy, and the city boy or the f-boy is not qualified to be with a modern woman. 

Or modern women, what you do is you get with the male. Looks like a man, talks like a man, sounds like a man, walks like a man, behaves like a man, and perceives like a man. But he’s not a man. He can’t do what I said earlier, which is positively and affirmatively go to the market; he can’t evaluate the market, extract value by providing a service to the market, and then building long-term relationships. Because males live on your couch, they drive your car. They don’t want to watch the kid, if you have a kid with him. They are always busy, and they’re always a meeting away, because males are not men. They have the chromosomes, but they are not men. And what we say is that for our modern women, as a warning, the city boy, f-boy, and the male are the ones that are being dated, and then all of the men are these two groups. So this is where we have modern women in the States saying: Well, I’m a woman who does this, but I’m tired of all the men being so wishy-washy and unfaithful and they cheat, or they just are not being men and they’re not stepping up. Yeah, that’s a male that you have, or that’s a city boy. 

If you had a modern man, he wouldn’t be having this discussion with me about stepping up. Because modern men don’t have a problem, they’ve already stepped up; they’ve stepped up, and they’re already living in their truth, and they’re walking the way of a man. You would definitely never be talking about it in traditional men, because traditional men do not believe in 50-50 or partnerships. And you wouldn’t ever talk about it in high-value men, because high-value is focused on purpose, and the high-value woman helps deliver him to the purpose and support his purpose. Because it supports the entire family and the long-term legacy. So yeah, modern women, get you a modern man, there are plenty of them out there.

I’m hearing you really speak to this idea that, not just giving a man a benefit of the doubt or a person in whatever stage they’re at, in hopes that they can create. That you’re saying, really look honestly, and that there’s an assessment, as you clearly stated. Is someone actually at the level? Are they ready, to your point?

That’s why I say, that’s why you have to first know who you are. If you’re a modern woman and you’re not getting the relationship outcome, the second question I’m going to ask is, do you know what you want? Well, yeah, I want a high-value man. Okay, do you qualify for a high-value man? Well, what do you mean? A high-value man is going to have his purpose 100%, you’re going to be second or third. Are you okay with that? No, then you need a modern man. Well, I want traditional a little bit. So you don’t want to work and you want to take care of the home and you want to take care of the children. No, I want to have my job, then you’re back to being modern. Stay away from traditional men who speak in traditional tones and with traditional language, and stay away from high-value men. You’re not going to slow him down to come with you, to partner; he doesn’t need you to partner. 

So you need to find someone who’s 50-50, who understands that you’re a doctor, you’re a lawyer, you’re a partner at your firm, at your accounting firm, you have your own business, you have several businesses, you’ve got real estate; a modern man is okay with that, he’s comfortable with that, he welcomes it. It’s not going to fall on him, and he’s willing to do 50-50. So stop with the males and stop with the city boys. And when you stop with the males or the city boys in a six-month period, you’re like: Wooh, I got some peace in my life, and I’m now able to really truly evaluate the market. I can look at him and be like, in three conversations, city. Three conversations, he’s a male, he’s not real, okay. But where do you live? Oh, I’m between houses right now. Well, where are you standing? Oh, right now, my mother. Male, stop. You can do it respectfully. “Well, that’s really good for you. It sounds like you’re really all about family, that’s really good. So I’d like for us to get together and go out sometime, you can Uber. Oh okay, let me look at my schedule.” Do not look at your schedule. You’re a modern woman, you have no time to be with that.

So in your framework, just to be clear, I’m curious if a high-value woman is absolutely supportive of a high-value man’s purpose, and that that is going to be the meaning and the significance and what he’s focusing on and prioritizing? Not to say he’s not going to show up and be of service to the family and the relationship. Now, in your framework, is a high-value woman also having purpose? Maybe it is her family, or maybe it is another source of making a difference or being of value and service?

No. So when we look at high-value, there’s a lot of conversation in the space, relationship specifically, around high-value. A lot of men classify themselves as high-value, and they’re not. It’s less than 7% of any marketplace at any given time. 100 men in the room, only seven of them could be high-value. Guess what? All the other men can point and see who the high-value men are, without even really saying a word. Because that’s how men align in hierarchical structures when you walk into a room together. So that’s really easy to see. But for high-value women, it’s not. A high-value woman, it’s all character-driven. 

A lot of times in this space, what they say is a high-value woman doesn’t work. No, that’s a traditional woman. High-value women work. Most high-value women, as I talk about in part one of the book, and continue in part two, they do have careers; they have their education, they have an advanced degree. They just don’t lead with it. It’s not a defining character trait for them, that I’m a strong, independent woman, and I don’t need a man. She is like, I have a degree, I have a career. Yes, I went and I graduated from Brown, I went to Yale, I went to Harvard. I’m an attorney, I’m a doctor, my medical trade, I do family law. It’s all still the same thing. But when she assigns and decides to be, because high-value women decide who they’re going to be with, that’s a high-value man. They don’t settle for anyone else, it’s a high-value man. They say: All right, let’s get together and let’s talk about where we’re going over the next 30 years. If I am going to be your wife and be with you, here are the things that I expect from you. I need you going to the next level, here, here, here, here, and here. 

This language is very attractive to modern women. Why? Because modern women are the ones who move into high-value the quickest. Especially when they align themselves with the high-value men, they put down the modern 50-50 ideology. Like, I’m done with this. I’m tired anyway, I’m exhausted. Be here now, I’m in my soft air. Because modern women, as we define in The Middle Ground, have decided: Listen, I need to find one of these 7% high-value men. Because I’m exhausted, I’m 33, and I’m tired. I want one relationship with one man, I don’t want to play the game any day. What is he looking for? 

High-value men look for characteristics in their women that are bottom-up. They look for cooperation. They look for support. They look for feminine attributes of softness, and beauty, natural beauty. And they also look at driven towards the goal of family as the outcome. Meaning, she works, she’s a doctor, she has a degree. But ultimately, when it’s time to be home with the kids, if that’s what they decide, she’s going to commit to it 100%. Then when the kids are older, these are the women that go back to work. 

As we interviewed individuals for the high-value, we didn’t just look at social media, I actually talked to some people that we would identify and evaluate as high-value. All of the men have unequivocally said, “My success is 100% based on my decision to be with my woman who was high-value. I would have never had the ability to drive at the level that I drove in my business, drove from our organization, without her support. She committed to the family; she committed to our home life. She still worked, but she didn’t run after promotions, because the promotions didn’t serve the family.” 

So with that type of mindset, it goes back to what we said earlier, which is a service mindset. Because he’s not out here, as people in the space are saying, out here exercising options or being disrespectful. He is out there driving towards the purpose, because his family needs it, his community needs it. His loved ones are all depending on him, and he needs it as well, to be successful, to continue to go and drive things forward. It’s kind of like the symbiotic relationship where it’s a dance that just keeps going and going and going. Most people are never able to get there, but it’s possible.

It sounds as though you’re really referencing some of the polarity between the masculine and the feminine, and how that is supportive. It is this flow that allows for greater growth and development when there’s that match and that pairing in the way that they work together. I do believe both men and women have masculine and feminine. The way that you’re talking about a high-value man, typically, there is a level of wanting to make a difference and having a purpose. There are some things that are unique for people who identify as male and the way that you’re laying this out in the journey. So that’s super helpful. So is there anything you want to say? I know you talk about main lessons, was there a second that you wanted to speak to?

I mean, the second main lesson is, and this is probably updated, if you’re someone who is saying: Okay, yes, 100% it would be in my control, but I’ve been hurt. You need to get into therapy. You need to find a licensed professional who focuses on that area of hurt, to help you through, whether it’s divorce, whether it’s trauma, whether it’s childhood issues, whatever it is. There are people who have dedicated their life to helping people who have come from your situation. Doing that work for a six-month period changes your mindset, doing it for a 12-month period changes the market’s perception of you, and doing it for a two-year period leads you to heal and restoration. 

Free Couple Reclining Under The Tree Stock Photo

“I will always say, therapy, therapy, therapy. Get therapy. If you don’t believe that it’s in your control, go get the tools to make it within your control.”

I’ve never heard that before. I really like that, that there’s a process in which it’ll start to change, and the impact of that change, and engaging in that level of work. Wonderful. I wonder too, if you would be willing to share a little bit about what you’re seeing, for people that have taken some of these principles and started to implement them? Like, what are you seeing?

Yeah. So we’ll talk to the men specifically, we’re starting to see men get into the flow of where they’re actually able to lead. We have a lot of figureheads, but we don’t have a lot of leaders anywhere. So men specifically, to the men that are listening in the audience, or if you have a man, is your man a leader? If he’s not a leader, ask him what do you think that he would need to become that leader. But we have seen just through the work related to The Middle Ground, through the book and through our research, where people who have subscribed themselves to the policies go from making $30,000 a year to $130,000, $130,000 to $260,000, $260,000 to half a million. We’ve seen people become first-generation millionaires off of their decisions, as they put their head down on that hero’s journey, as you called it. And we’ve seen women who have put down the ideology around the city boy or f-boy, the ideology around males and trying to make it work, and now getting into their authentic self and then choosing the right type of man to be with, so that they can have a long-term relationship outcome. 

On both books, I have quotes from two different women who are really good friends and allowed us to have it, who both said that the principles that Glenn gave, from this book, really changed my trajectory. Both are engaged and in happy, healthy relationships. Both are looking at the next thirty years with rose-colored glasses, really a bright eye. They’re just out there really empowering other women to be okay with making the same decisions, and as they talk to those other women, it’s just creating this kind of a snowball effect of other individuals; we have new families that will be developed, we have new communities that will be developed and invested in. Because everyone is now pulling in the same direction and looking for the right qualities in those men, in order to get to that next level, that relationship outcome.

I imagine it’s really inspiring, as I’m hearing you speak to both genders in the heterosexual relationship with the man, and being able to support the leadership and how many benefits come from that. And also, for the women, that it is okay to really say no thank you. To your point, not check your schedule, and to believe that it is possible to have this type of trajectory in relationship, and also to feel worthy of, and also to believe, again, that it’s possible. I think that that is really important. Because I think earlier, you were saying, so often people get stuck settling, because they’re afraid of not having a better option.

Yeah, I’m not going to try because it’s too hard, or I’ll just stick with this person and see where it goes. Both of those are just awful ways. If you look at your career that way, I can just tell people, you’re never going to be successful. So you don’t. You put your job on LinkedIn or Indeed, you’re networking, you’re talking to your friends about where you want to go, and anytime there’s a better opportunity, you make yourself available for it. So why not do the same thing when it comes to the relationship outcome? 

Wonderful. Well, you’ve given us so much here today. Is there anything that you wanted to mention that you haven’t about strategies, or you’ve talked a lot about where people get stuck? You’ve given us so, so much. Is there anything else you want to say before we turn towards how people can get your book and connect with social media? Is there anything? 

Yeah, we’ve talked a lot about those strategies. But I think the one thing that we want to say, outside of believing it’s possible, second, getting the therapy if you have experienced the true trauma, it’s to get aligned with a group of like-minded individuals. You can’t have the blind leading the blind; you can’t have the fearful leading the fearful. You have to get around people who kind of believe the same thing. Check your friend group. Ladies, if you’ve got 13 different besties, you have probably 12 too many. So you’ve got to figure out, with the outcome that I want, who are the people that are most exemplifying that, and go get close to them. They’re at your church, they’re at your school, they’re at the library, they’re at your local Target, you’d run into them. They have a wealth of knowledge to provide you, and they’re there for that specific reason. But men, if you haven’t had an example of true manhood, in the sense of what is not toxic, what is not inappropriate, find that. Find someone who is a man and who is living the way that you would like to live, and spend some time learning from them. That’s their purpose. And while they’re teaching, you start to put some things in place that are practical that you can manage. 

Free Two Men Laughing Stock Photo

“I say for men, that you can impact your life in three areas pretty quickly. It’s going to be your fitness, it’s going to be your finances, and it’s going to be your family.”

What’s your relationship with your mom and dad? What’s your relationship with your sister? How does your family see you? Your finance? What is the job that you have? Is it a high-value skill? Is it in-demand or is it not? Then fitness, how many times a week do you go to the gym and what are you ingesting? Those three things, over a 12-month period, will send men from guy to modern man to high-value, over the long-term, quicker than anything else that we could recommend.

Thank you for those extra tips. One of the things that I’m getting, and even as I reflect on our conversation, is just how we need each other, especially the high-value. People tend to want, especially in the high-value place, want to give back, want to help, be of service to others who are seeking, and want to grow and want to develop. So I do think it is this interconnection that we do need each other, and to be around like-minded people, as you said. I also just feel like there’s something that gets transmitted. I don’t know if it’s particularly for men, but I find there’s something special about being around high-value man, and what is exuded, as you said, around it’s very visible, and to be in contact and to have that experience in-person, and to your point about local. 

Wonderful. Well, Glenn, how do people get your book? Tell us a little bit more.

Yeah. So the book is available on Amazon, part one and part two. It’s available on Audible and Kindle, or paperback. We also have versions available on Apple Books and Google Play Books. If someone wants to get in touch with us, we are available at We’re on the core four social, I call them core four: Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, and YouTube, as The Middle Ground Book. There, you’ll see a lot of our content; we do daily posts, inspirational and tips for relationship. I have two shows that I host. I have a Middle Ground Live every Friday at 12 Pacific, and I have The Middle Ground Reacts, where it is my reaction video to everything my audience sends me that they see in the relationship space on the previous week. I just jump on a microphone and just really kind of have a dialogue with the audience about what we see under the guise of the principles of The Middle Ground, and what I feel, think, or believe that day. But we have guiding principles. I’d really appreciate people to go to the website, check it out, join our community, which is our email list, and then join us on social media. As we continue to grow this thing, we’ll start putting out more of the podcasts and more of the speaking engagements that we’ve been invited to.

Wonderful. Did you do the audio for the audiobook?

I did the audio and I do voices. 

Wow, good for you! 

I did the audio for the audiobook. I can tell you, writing the book was probably the hardest project, but most fulfilling project. Just in this time, Jessica, I thought writing the book was going to be the part that I enjoy most. It’s just having these conversations.

Well, you’re making a difference, and your help is sparking a lot of insight and guidance and hope for people. I imagine as this develops, I don’t know, it’d be easy for me to see that people would want to create groups or even have some place of workshop or support that they could engage in this more. So thank you for what you’re doing. Thank you for being here today, and we really appreciate it.

Thank you. I appreciate it, Jessica.

Signing Off

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Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication

Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication.

Stop the criticism loop, learn new ways to communicate
and strengthen the connection with your partner.


Dr. Jessica Higgins ~ Relationship and Transformational Coaching