ERP 398: How To Experience Both Freedom & Connection In Relationship — An Interview With Dr. Don St John

By Posted in - Podcast November 14th, 2023 0 Comments

In a society that highly values individual achievements and personal pursuits, the dynamics of maintaining emotional closeness within relationships undergo a subtle but significant transformation. Emphasizing autonomy, self-expression, and personal goal pursuit, societal norms shape how individuals navigate connections.

In this episode, we explore the nuanced dynamics of emotional intimacy within the context of contemporary societal norms that often prioritize individual pursuits. The discussion delves into the delicate interplay between autonomy and togetherness, shedding light on the challenges individuals face in maintaining meaningful connections while pursuing personal goals. The impact of trauma on relationships is unpacked, highlighting the complexities of healing in the realm of emotional closeness. 

Join us as we navigate the fine line between independence and the inherent desire for emotional proximity, unraveling the secrets to fostering meaningful connections in a culture that champions individuality.

Dr. St John is a psychotherapist, somatic fluid movement and meditation educator, and author of “Healing the Wounds of Childhood and Culture: An Adventure of a Lifetime”. He overcame severe childhood trauma and has engaged in the healing process both personally and professionally for 60 years.

In this Episode

5:09 From brokenness to healing: Dr. Don St John’s personal and professional journey.

11:30 The coherence model: Balancing freedom and cohesion in intimate relationships.

14:56 The importance of embracing both closeness and independence in a relationship.

27:09 Navigating change, personal growth, and cultural shifts.

32:47 Shifting from individual identity to cooperative connection.

50:06 Additional resources and information.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

  • Engage in practices like yoga or other body-focused activities to reconnect with the body and enhance emotional intimacy.
  • Challenge societal norms by emphasizing the value of meaningful connections alongside personal goals.
  • Approach challenging discussions as opportunities for growth, recognizing that avoiding them can lead to suffering in relationships.
  • Honor commitments and promises, as trust is a foundational element in fostering emotional intimacy.
  • Choose the discomfort of engaging in difficult conversations over the suffering that comes from avoidance.
  • Understand the effects of both big and small traumas on relationships, and engage in practices that restore aliveness and connection.
  • Strive for harmony between pursuing individual aspirations and nurturing connections, acknowledging the need for both in a fulfilling life.


Healing the Wounds of Childhood and Culture: An Adventure of a Lifetime (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People: 30th Anniversary Edition (The Covey Habits Series) (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Relationship Map To Happy, Lasting Love

ERP 348: Access Intraconnection for Well-Being — An Interview with Dr. Daniel Siegel

Connect with Dr. Don St John





Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins






Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 


Email: [email protected]

About Today’s Show

Don, thank you for joining us today.

It is my pleasure. I’m very much looking forward to this conversation, Jessica.

I really appreciate people who have done a level of their own personal work, as well as have crafted their skills through education, experience, and training, to be able to assist people. I know our topic around emotional intimacy is something in relationship that is such a core component of intimate partnership. 

Before we turn towards our topic, what would you like to share with people who maybe don’t know you, and what got you interested in supporting people in relationship? 

Yeah. I entered adulthood at 18, without having the vaguest idea what I wanted to do with my life. I had to give up my dream to be a professional prize fighter, because I just didn’t quite have it in me to do what that would have taken. So I didn’t know, I went into the Air Force. One morning, I woke up in the backseat of my car in very, very bad shape, out drinking all night, and I realized I needed help. So I went to the Yellow Pages, found a psychiatrist, walked in and said: “Fix me, I’m a mess.” I had broken up from my high school sweetheart. By the way, I noticed this, years later in my professional career. 

“It’s not uncommon for someone who has a terrible childhood, somewhere around 16 or so, finds a relationship that feels like salvation, and then it goes south. That’s when the symptoms emerge; they just erupt. Because that’s when it all hits, the pain, the loneliness, the sense of being lost and alone.”

It was pretty rough in those years of my life: 18, 19, 20. So my psychiatrist at the time, again, in retrospect, was pretty awful. If I had watched him now with the knowledge I have now, I’d say, run! To add a little spice to that image, he was arrested and tried for the murder of his lover, even though he was married. I’m not going to tell you what city, because that would identify him. But in that city, he was very popular. We’d wait two or three hours in his waiting room to see him. So there was this magnum maniacal complex. But he said one thing, one thing that changed my life forever. He said, Don, get a PhD. I said, you’ve got to be kidding. I hadn’t gone to high school. I started to take college courses in the Air Force. But I didn’t have a solid high school education. So I said, well, if he thinks I can do it, he went to Harvard and Johns Hopkins. So a few years later, I was in a clinical PhD program at the University of Kansas. So that one sentence changed my life. 

Jessica, it took me a long time. Because I consider myself relationally retarded. I was not someone you’d want to be in a relationship with. Even though I had a nice guy veneer, underneath there was a whole lot of fragmentation and dissociation. It was rough. Couple of marriages, divorces, three to be exact. Now I’ve been with the same woman, we started our 40th year. 

Aww, congratulations! 

Yeah. It’s been creatively monogamous. It’s been intimate. We’re both in our 80s, and it’s still lively. I mean, it’s really cool. After all that I had gone through in the past, it feels so good, and I’ve learned a few things along the way. I did a lot of studying, a lot of workshops, and a lot of trainings. I’m happy to share. 

Yeah. So this has been quite a journey for you personally, and also spawned you in your professional development. And what you’re describing is having a deficiency in this emotional intimacy arena or on the continuum, and really getting to a level of competency and even mastery as you train and help others to develop these skills. So I appreciate what you’re describing, thank you for sharing. Love that you have your personal relationship that you do your practice together with your significant other, and such a beautiful model and example as you’ve been on your journey. So it’s beautiful. 

Well, where would you like to start on the topic of emotional intimacy? I know you have a model. Do you want to describe that model? Or where would you start here?

Yeah, that’d be a good place to start, and we can go from there, and there are a lot of take-homes. But the model is interesting. I read a couple of books by a biochemist who made the following statement. She said that the water is coherence, and she defined coherence as a condition in which individual freedom, individual autonomy, and global cohesion were both optimized. Hmm, thought I. When I look at the structure of the human body, in terms of joints and integration, that model applies. You’d love to have every joint optimally free to do what it’s designed to do, and be coordinated. Global cohesion.

And this applies to intimate relationships.

It applies exactly to intimate relationships, to have a sense of personal freedom and closeness, both. It’s not a static state. It’s a dance, it’s a fluid state. Sometimes it leans heavily into one side and sometimes to the other, and ideally, both are embraced. That’s the model to feel free. Now, what does that entail? How does one get there?

Well, I just want to say, in my exposure to a lot of different theories and models, I’m a big fan of the late Dr. David Schnarch, and also really a fan of the EFT and Susan Johnson and her team and what they’ve developed in the Emotionally Focused Therapy. These models or frameworks don’t always talk to each other well, but yet they very much are the essence of what we’re describing in this intimacy and autonomy or closeness and separateness. 

So tell us more about how this works for you. Because it’s not always clear. A lot of times we gravitate, I think a lot of cultural messages really emphasize the almost symbiotic merging of closeness and in sync, that togetherness. Yet, we don’t always know what that independent freedom looks like in a safe, secure relationship. So talk to us a little bit more here.

Okay, great. I have to say, this is so exciting for me. I love this topic. David Schnarch is the king of differentiation.

Right. So tell people what that differentiation is, for people who don’t know.

Well, it’s I do my thing, I be with me, I hold on to myself, and let’s meet from the place of I. Susan Johnson leans into the closeness, Hold Me Tight is one of her books. I trained in that methodology, and it’s beautiful. For me, both are important, and it takes a stretching, and I believe it’s at the human heart that that stretching has to anchor, to embrace, lean in to closeness, and define yourself without hesitation, assert yourself. Hold on to yourself, David Schnarch writes. 


“You can’t do it from the head, it has to come from the heart. I think we live in a culture that doesn’t understand that. It’s such a head-oriented culture. It’s rational, consumption, achievement. It’s not about connection, belonging, closeness.”

So I think that’s something to meditate on, it’s something to discuss with your partner, what does that mean to embrace both?

Yes, agreed, agreed. I would love to hear from you what this stretching can look like, as an example. Because I will say, I had done my dissertation on conscious intimate relationship at the time. I think I was a few years out of that program, and I was in practice. I remember, I had cited the EFT (Emotionally Focused Therapy) in my dissertation. But I hadn’t trained in the model, and I remember learning more about the model. I was also very inclined towards David Schnarch’s work. So I was like, how do these fit together? I remember learning about the model and I was like, oh! In the model of EFT, when there’s the deepening into the core part of what someone’s feeling, and that being able to build awareness and understanding for that person to get some stability, and then send it over with the vulnerability. I’m like, that’s differentiation. Taking that emotional risk to first get in touch with how one is feeling, to be able to hold space for that within themselves, and then to reveal that to their partner. I don’t know if you would agree, but I felt very much that that was a piece of differentiation in that EFT model. What do you think? 

I think it’s both. The essence of closeness is being able to share deeply how you feel, and not the defensive layers where people get stuck and where distress enters the relationship. It’s because they’re speaking at the level of defense rather than at the level of core or heart.

Okay. So can you give us an example of what this stretching in the heart, or when you ask people to reflect, contemplate, meditate on, what does a relationship look like that holds space for both autonomy and togetherness or connection? What does the stretching in the heart in this context look like?

It looks like a willingness to engage in difficult conversations, as a starting. Because when you engage in difficult conversations, you sweat. When you avoid difficult conversations, you suffer. 

Hmm, I like that. 

You’ve got a choice here. Either you’re going to sweat. Or for example, do you imagine, I’m 40 years with the same woman. Can you imagine that in those 40 years, no other attractions came into my consciousness? For me, it’s unimaginable. For some people, they can. So what do you do with that? What do you do? Do you hide it? Do you act out on it? Pretend it doesn’t exist? Or can you share it? Can you sweat? Believe me, I’ve sweat a lot over 40 years. But I also kept my commitments, which is another art of an intimate relationship and what builds trust, what builds trust. All your commitments. I’m going to meet you tomorrow at eight o’clock. You don’t show up at 8:30. If you do, you call first. Or these days, text. But you don’t just blithely show up at 8:30 and say, here I am. So wait a minute, you said you were going to be here at 8:00. Those little things, keeping our word, doing what we say we’re going to do, builds trust, acknowledging those difficult events as attractions.

Or anything else that feels contrary, unpopular, shameful, unlovable.

Exactly, exactly, exactly. Petty, all those things. You know what they are, they’re human. They’re human. If we identify with and express from our persona, it’s going to be shallow.

And not sustainable. We can’t live in this facade or veneer, as you’re describing.

Because it brings a loneliness, and researchers are discovering that loneliness is as much of a risk factor for chronic disease as is smoking. It’s hard to imagine, but it’s true. Just the way it affects our nervous system, our endocrine system, it’s not healthy.

No. And when we hide in relationship or avoid and suffer, it’s a suffering, the loneliness or the disconnect, or feeling as though the relationship doesn’t represent what you need or what you long for, or isn’t a reflection of you. It’s that sense of losing myself. I’m not existing in this relationship. Thus, how am I feeling known and seen and loved and connected? Because I’m kind of vacant or shallow about it.

Yeah, exactly. Jessica, that’s so painful. It’s so painful. 


“To be in a relationship and be lonely, I believe, is worse than being single and being lonely.”

Agreed. As we’re talking about the emotional intimacy, and in your model, really recognizing the importance of both the freedom, the individuation, the autonomy, as well as the connection and togetherness, one of the things you’re helping us understand is this is not always comfortable. It requires sweaty 10-minute conversations or longer. And that what’s on the other side, what we’re cultivating is a relationship where we get to feel alive, mobile, able to grow. We don’t have to be the same person. It’s like the relationship and what gets co-created allows for individual growth as well as relationship growth. Is that right, am I hearing this right?

Yeah. One other thing that I’d like to emphasize in there, and don’t want to leave it out, is that there’s more love, I mean felt love. When you’re with somebody and your heart is just like huh, and you’re just loving that person. In that moment, not as a concept. Yeah, of course I love my wife, blah, blah, blah. But how often do I feel it, and feel it when I’m with her? That’s awesome to feel with another human being. There’s a book, I can’t think of the author. Just reminding people, I’m 80 years old. But the title is Love 2.0.

I don’t know the author’s name.

She talks about love moments. She’s doing a whole lot of research, in the University of North Carolina, I believe. But she’s talking about love moments that can happen with strangers, or at any time that there’s that connection, that feeling of closeness. To have a lot of that in a marriage, in a long-term relationship, is a really cool thing.

Absolutely. Don, it’s almost as if what I’m hearing you describe is this conscious awareness about what is available to cultivate. That we don’t just take relationship for granted as though it’s a stagnant thing. As you’re talking about the commitments, even in the small ways of showing up that help contribute to trust. Trust is not a thing that is just inanimate. It’s alive and breathing, and it’s growing and developing, and we have an ability to nurture it and care for it, or neglect it.

Absolutely. I’m going to use a metaphor that might sound a little trite, overused. But it’s a garden. You wouldn’t think of starting a garden, throwing a bunch of seeds into the ground, and then forgetting about it and expecting it to flourish. You have to tend the soil, you have to pull the weeds you have to fertilize it, etc. It takes conscious intention. And I believe, equally important, a willingness to change, a willingness to be influenced.

Absolutely. So talk to us about this change, in that a lot of adults in modern living are very focused on career, on raising children, whatever the pursuits are. Even finding a partner can be like a challenge these days. Once one is in relationship, this awakeness, being awake to what they’re contributing towards and how important that is, and what gets in the way, being willing to change. Sometimes, as you said, we’ve experienced trauma, so perhaps we have certain armors or defenses or coping protective strategies. How do you invite people to look at the ways in which they participate, that are not serving the or getting in the way of their own freedom or connection in relationship?

Wow, that’s a big question. 


“I think people need to know what’s possible. Just know that there’s nothing quite like an intimate relationship, to bring color and vibrancy and joy and contentment to your life. No career success.”

There was an article recently in the New York Times, I believe by David Brooks, I’m not sure. But that made that very point, that it’s your relationships that are going to influence your experience more than your career, over the long haul. So that, and what’s possible in a relationship, that model of maximum closeness, real closeness, and freedom. Now it’s hard to contemplate, but it’s a beautiful model. So knowing that it’s possible, and knowing that there are resources available to help us, to understand, to implement practices. Go seek them. And to realize that a relationship is, in my opinion, the best venue for personal growth. 

I agree.

It’s really good. It’s really easy to go sit on the mountaintop alone and preach to the world. I have a young friend, he’s in his 20s. He gets on Instagram, and he’s preaching about how to do it. But he’s not in a relationship. In fact, in my early days, I’d give lectures on relationships, except when I was in one, I never did.

Too confronting.

Yeah, so that’s what I would say. Again, I think it’s cultural. We need to privilege relationships, throughout our educational system, our parenting.

I mean, one of the things that occurs to me is that if we’re in service of this possibility, and we’re intentional about how we’re participating in creating that, then that makes the endeavor motivating. But if we don’t have any idea of what’s possible, and it’s not reinforced in our community or in the things that we’re engaging in, it’s hard to get the value of it.

Yeah, exactly. How do we measure the well-being of the country? Gross National Product, how much money, how much production. We don’t talk about well-being, relationships. It’s just not part of the conversation. It’s entering a little bit more, I think, I hope. But generally speaking, we’re considered fringe having this kind of conversation.

Yeah. I mean, culturally, in the West, it’s a lot of individual pursuits. Kind of just culturally, we’re not as collective here in the West, in the United States. I think there is a lot of research that’s showing how much we need each other, and that this bondedness is part of our survival. What is it, John Bowlby’s original research and theory is cradle to grave. We don’t ever stop needing this bondedness. And we’re living an individual life, and thus we have our individual pursuits. But how they work together, we don’t always get a lot of example around how they work together.

Yeah, exactly. I’d say from conception to grave. Here’s one of the ways that I see this, Jessica. You’re familiar with Eric Erickson’s model of development. I think as a culture, we’re still stuck in that identity level, and haven’t gone to intimacy, as a culture. So that corresponds to what you just said about our individual pursuits, finding out who we are, and how do I fit into all this as an adult. 


“We’re still stuck in those earlier levels of development. So to get to intimacy, to feel good about ourselves and who we are as an adult, and then to recognize that the next level is intimacy.”

Would you be willing to share any of your ideas around what this could look like for a collective consciousness up-level in development, of having more intimacy rather than this identity? Because I mean, we could talk about all the ways in which it’s not that.

Yeah, that’s a really good question. I don’t know if I’ll be able to do it justice. But one thought that comes to mind is how we spend our money, as a country, for example.

I get that this is territory that’s probably difficult to talk about, because of all the different beliefs in politics and whatnot, and I want to be sensitive to that. I think one way potentially, I guess I’m wondering if what you’re describing developmentally as a culture, that the way in which we interact, what we focus on, what we prioritize, what we value, is both for individual growth and freedom, and also the health and well-being of our relationships. That means not just intimate relationship. That’s family relationships, all types of relationships; the way we relate to one another, and perhaps even nature and the world we live in. 

Yeah. I think it starts with an interpretation of Darwin, because for so long, we’ve thought that it’s the survival of the fittest, and that competition is the fundamental principle of coexistence. I think we’re finding that cooperation is. I’m watching a television show now called Suits.

Okay, I’ve been hearing people talk about it. I have not seen it. 

The Duchess of Sussex, also known as Megan Markle, is one of the stars of the show. So that’s what took me there in the first place. But it’s about a law firm, and every other scene involves some kind of cutthroat manipulation, power-over.

Power, dominance.

Yeah. Every once in a while, there’s a heart-touching scene of cooperation. It’s in our media, the internet, in so many different places, the value on individual achievement. 

Do you remember Stephen Covey’s Seven Habits of Highly Effective People? Do you remember that book? 

Oh yes, of course.

Well, I know it’s published many years ago. However, there was an exercise in there I remember facilitating, I was running a team program at the time. I don’t think I’ll be able to do it exact justice. But you divide the group into two teams, and there’s this number, each person had a certain amount, and there was an equation. Essentially, the whole exercise was people are prone to being competitive if they kept and they took away. So you had an option to take away from the other team and give it to yourself, and the point was to get the most points. So it wasn’t the most points per team, it was the most points collectively. It was a game about looking at competitive tendencies and what can get created in a more cooperative way. Actually, the real reveal was that when we are in cooperation, it’s much more generative. That even though we think we’re sharing and we might have less, it actually can be generative, that it actually builds and is exponentially more than just what appears to be on the front-end. Do you remember that?

No, I don’t. But it’s a beautiful example. That’s a beautiful example of the power of cooperation. You’re familiar with Dan Siegel’s work?

Yes, yes.

Yeah. For him, the mind itself isn’t my mind. It’s MWe. It’s like, my mind is a function of my whole body, not just my brain, my whole body, and in this moment, my connection with you. That’s radically different. 

He was a guest on this show, and I was using language in an example, and he was correcting me that even as I was getting what he was describing, still might language was steeped in the separation of Me and We. It’s a new word that I’m not used to using, MWe. It’s trying to get it existing. But it’s a paradigm shift.

It is a paradigm shift. It’s like Einstein’s general relativity coming into physics, it’s a shift.

I think that when we talk about intimate relationship, we could probably all call up, if we contemplate or reflect on, a time where we may have been in power struggle, and it had felt as though there’s nowhere to turn here. It’s either you get what you want, or I get what I want. Then there’s a shift of some understanding or some recognition, that what we’re both seeking or what we’re both wanting is valuable. How might we be in service of one another? Is there a win-win? There’s a shift and something else emerges that wasn’t even visible prior to that shift, and then what gets created in that possibility is quite touching and profound and transformational. Do you have an example that might help people here? 

Oh, not off the top of my head. But I do know that in my own marriage, for example, we always aim toward maximizing the good for each of us. So to stay with something until it feels just right. For example, I got this idea in my head that I want to buy the seven-foot pillow. It cost $1,000, and it’s supposedly extremely comfortable, and I want to plop it in the center of our living room. My wife still hasn’t quite gotten the image. So I’m not going to right out buy it. But we’re going to look at it, talk about it, maybe we’ll get a four-foot pillow, maybe? So yeah, it’s not a zero-sum game. That’s a mentality that we need to let go up. Sports is great. It’s zero-sum: I win, you lose. But when we place that model on our relationships, we both lose.

Exactly. When someone’s hurt or it’s not working, it doesn’t work for anyone in the relational sense. That’s beautiful. I can just also appreciate what we’re describing sometimes takes a little bit more effort. I can say, in my relationship with my husband, whether or not we’re deciding, whatever the decision that we’re working on, sometimes those harder ones where we’re in conflict, or we want different things, or we’re in service of different aspects, it might take a lot longer for us to arrive. But neither one of us are pushing, where one person is not okay or not getting what they need, and we’ve settled into something that feels really good, and we can really rest in that. Sometimes it’s maybe not always feasible to take the time, and there are certain places where maybe each person has executive power to make decisions. But when there’s this role of being in service to one another and collective cooperation, it does take more time and effort. I don’t know, would you agree? 

I would agree. 

Yeah. Like you’re not getting the pillow, it’s taking a little longer. 

Yeah. I’d like to say a few words, if we have to time, about the effects of trauma on relationships. Because it’s a big one. Trauma is one of those words that can be ambiguous. Because there’s the trauma of, for example, being hit by a car, or being mugged and raped. So big, big events that change our lives in a single moment. And there’s the trauma of, for example, growing up in a family where emotionally, you’re simply neglected; you don’t have emotions, you just do what you’re supposed to do, etc. Or growing up in an environment where you’re constantly criticized, or where your parents are continuously fighting with each other and it’s an unsafe atmosphere. They have different kinds of effects, those two types of trauma, big T, little T. But they also have a common effect, and that is they shut down the vibrancy, aliveness, and relatability of the organism. To the degree that they do that, we relate from images. You’re familiar with object relationship therapy?

Talk to people who don’t know. Will you spell that out a little bit?

Well, it’s relating to images. My image of what a woman is supposed to be like, based on how I imagined my mother was, put onto you, my mate. So I’m not seeing you as you are, I’m seeing you as my image holds you to be. Trauma has that effect. Because the whole organism, my part of that field of MWe, to the degree that it’s shut down, isn’t available for connection. So when we look at healing, we have to look at the whole organism; we have to look at the whole body. It’s not just muscle and bones. I mean, that’s a whole other foundation. But it goes deep, to restore our aliveness.

So I asked earlier about trauma, and I think we didn’t get here. So I’m appreciating that you’re bringing this back. How would you say, when the organism has been compromised, isn’t that vital, isn’t optimal, when we look at emotional intimacy? Because as you said, in your story, and what often you’re saying is true in your experience, that when people have had trauma in their early upbringing, and then they get into 16, 17, 18 years old to have a romantic relationship, what gets evoked, and it can be quite intense. So as we’re talking about emotional intimacy and trauma, can you help what this can look like, to help with healing around trauma in an intimate relationship, or this emotional intimacy space?

Let’s begin with the idea that being in a relationship can be the most healing of all possibilities. To the degree that I can be sincere, real, present, that’s manifestations of healing. Now, most of us, to facilitate the growth of those qualities that I just mentioned, it would be very helpful to engage the body, to work to open the body. Because trauma, both huge and small, constricts, contracts, cuts off consciousness from parts of the body. And there are resources out there. I can start with yoga, for example, because it’s the one most people know about. But there are others, and to explain them, it’d be simpler to just buy my book, and I have chapters on these resources to reconnect with the body, with the organism. 


“You can’t separate the body and the soul and the spirit, they’re all part of the field of MWe. It’s all part of that same whole. So don’t just be a victim of the philosophical errors, over centuries and centuries and centuries, that have resulted in the psychology department and the physical-ed or physical therapy department being on different sides of the university campus.”

Right, that the mind and body are separate. So what you’re saying is, part of the engagement of the emotional intimacy is to the extent that one has the capacity, and part of developing more capacity is to engage the body and to bring more of the mind-body connection. 

Yes, ma’am. 

All right. And your book is a great tool. I know we’re winding down here, so this might be a really great way. What is the title of your book, and can you say a little bit more?

Yes, it’s titled Healing the Wounds of Childhood and Culture: An Adventure of a Lifetime. The reason I call it an adventure of a lifetime is, again, I’m 80 years old. In a couple of weeks, I’m going to be teaching a workshop on fluid movement meditation to a bunch of 40-year-olds. So that’s what I mean by an adventure of a lifetime. I still very much enjoy going to bed with my wife, I won’t get any more graphic.

Okay, well, thank you. I appreciate that. Yeah, the body and the fluidity and maintaining that mobility, and there’s so much that goes into this. So I’ll make sure to put the link on the show notes for today. Is there anything else you want to direct people towards, around what you offer or what you’re teaching?

No, you know, I’m semi-retired, so I’m not looking for more workshops. My private practice is part-time, but full. Just my book and my website, because we have some additional resources that we mention on the website, and that’s

Okay, wonderful. I’ll make sure to put that link as well on today’s show notes. Don, thank you for sharing here with us today about your model, about your philosophy, what you’ve seen in your experience and your journey, and what you teach and share in your book, and other resources and workshops and work in the world. So thank you. 

Thank you, I had a great time. I hope you did too.

Yes, I did.

Signing Off

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Dr. Jessica Higgins ~ Relationship and Transformational Coaching