ERP 402: Using Plant Medicine To Assist With Growth & Transformation — An Interview With Nicole & Megan Michelena

By Posted in - Podcast December 12th, 2023 0 Comments

Embarking on a journey of profound spiritual exploration, particularly through plant medicine, can be a transformative endeavor. However, with the promise of self-discovery comes the responsibility of navigating these realms with caution.

In this episode, we delve into the potential pitfalls of venturing into the depths of spiritual work, offering cautionary insights to those considering or already immersed in plant medicine journeys. A wealth of knowledge and experiences are brought to light, highlighting the risks linked to inexperienced facilitators and emphasizing the significance of traditional shamanic practices. Offering practical tips for a safer and more intentional approach, this episode aims to empower listeners on their spiritual quests, fostering a sense of awareness and responsibility in the pursuit of profound personal growth.

Megan and Nicole Michelena are Microdosing Institute-certified mental health experts specializing in psychedelic medicine. They are known as the @zenchronicity_sisters and are the co-founders of Zenchronicity, a plant medicine microdosing mentorship program that supports healing through psilocybin mushrooms. Megan is also a certified holistic nutritionist and health coach, and both are trauma-informed yoga teachers and experts in psychedelic medicine. They are also precious stone jewelry makers and crystal experts, and Megan is a gifted astrologer.

In this episode

6:07 Navigating the terrain of plant medicine: Insights and considerations with Dr. Jessica Higgins.

12:55 Journey to mastery: The zen chronicity sisters on plant medicine, healing, and self-discovery.

18:51 Nicole’s perspective on plant medicine and the inner journey to transformation.

29:29 Navigating microdosing and plant medicine with Zen Chronicity.

39:38 How psilocybin softens neuroplasticity and transforms consciousness.

43:40 Balancing energies: Navigating the dance of masculine and feminine in psychedelic healing.

55:52 Integrating plant medicine with traditional shamanic wisdom.

1:08:03 Practical tips for safe and transformative plant medicine experiences.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

  • Before engaging in plant medicine journeys, thoroughly research experienced and traditional facilitators to ensure a safe and authentic experience.
  • Before diving into plant medicine experiences, establish clear and intentional goals to guide the process and enhance its effectiveness.
  • Consider the benefits of microdosing for gradual and manageable entry into plant medicine work, promoting daily awareness and intentionality.
  • When opting for plant medicine, choose ceremonies with smaller groups and sufficient support to prioritize your safety and well-being.
  • Trust your intuition: Pay attention to your instincts and avoid participating in ceremonies or microdosing if you sense any discomfort or uncertainty.
  • Apply tools learned from plant medicine integration to validate feelings and enhance communication in your relationships, fostering understanding and growth.
  • Consider seeking mentorship from those who align with your values and aspirations, facilitating personal growth and supporting you on your spiritual journey.

“It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat.” ― Theodore Roosevelt

Mentioned

Zenchronicity Podcast (*Apple podcast link)

Plants of the Gods (*Apple podcast link)

Transaction Analysis by Eric Berne

Hamilton Morris (*Wikipedia article)

The Body Keeps the Score: Brain, Mind, and Body in the Healing of Trauma (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

ERP 305: The Surprising & Powerful Benefits of Learning to Tolerate Discomfort — An Interview with Dr. Anna Lembke (podcast episode)

ERP 346: Accessing Relatedness & the Priority of Connection — An Interview with Gabriel Kram (podcast episode)

Relationship Map To Happy, Lasting Love

Connect with Nicole & Megan Michelena

Websites: zenchronicity222.com

Instagram: instagram.com/zenchronicity_podcast | instagram.com/zenchronicity_sisters

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About Today’s Show

Nicole and Megan, thank you so much for being here with us today.

We’re so excited to be here, Dr. Jessica.

Yes, thank you. We’re excited. 

Yes. This is a topic that I would say, for many years, has been getting a lot of interest. So perhaps listeners have had their own experiences or just want to know a little bit more. I know we focus on relationship, but we’ll just make welcome kind of an overview as we orient around plant medicine. Then if we can talk more specifically about relationship and the work that you both do. Before we even turn towards our topic, how did you get interested in serving people and supporting healing through plant medicine?

It’s a great question, and we get this often. I think all things, especially service, start as being selfish, and then move into being selfless. So our purpose or our service, it started off being selfish. It was like, I don’t want to be like this anymore. Trauma, pain, suffering, I think so many people are starting to recognize that’s not a normal state, and that’s where we have been for most of our lives. We had a pretty traumatic childhood, and Nicole and I have both been on a path of trying to heal from that and not repeat the pattern. It’s been intentional in our field for probably the last 15 years. It’s like, okay, well, what do we do? We sit on a therapist couch and they tell us this and they tell us that, and we know what’s going on. But then like, how do you change? How do you change the patterning? How do you change the neuroplasticity? Because it’s kind of like a merry-go-round. You’re like: “Okay, well, I know I’m doing this, but I don’t know how to stop.” It just goes round and round. 

Then all of a sudden, here enters plant medicine. For me, the first plant medicine I ever did was Rapé, or Hapé as they say here in America. I had been a yoga teacher for 10 years at the time, and I thought I knew chakras, and I thought I knew energy. And when the shaman blew Rapé up my left nostril, I saw white light, and I was just like, whoa! Then it hit my heart chakra, and the energy stopped. I couldn’t breathe, and I literally said out loud, I’m going to die! My best friend that I was with was like: “You’re not going to die, breathe.” I was like, I can’t. The block was bouncing, and I could feel the energy. Then all of a sudden, the memory of my first love breaking my heart and a bunch of stuff started running through my mind. Then all of a sudden, there’s this big release of energy, and then it went down through the rest of my chakras. I remember opening my eyes, and I’m crying, and I’m finally able to breathe. It was like: “Oh my gosh, this is everything I’ve been looking for. What was that?” Then the shaman was like, we have to do the other side. I was like, “The f you do, I’m not doing that again!” Then he did the right side. The left side is death, for those who don’t know, and the right is rebirth. The right side was way better than the left. Then I promptly started throwing up, having a terrible time. Went home, or went back to my friend’s house, because I was in California. Woke up and said: “Oh my gosh, I’ve never felt better in my life. I feel like I just did 10 years of therapy or emotional blocks.” 

After you throw up and all of that purging, really it’s not fun. But when you move energy like that. I had always been so against plant medicine. I had always thought like, the programming that they put on, it’s going to fry your brain, and you’re going to be whatever. The propaganda that was done in the 70s and throughout The Dare Project and everything. Then I was all in. Then it was like microdosing mushrooms, Ayahuasca, I just had found how to. Because the goal is to master yourself, and when you master self, you can deal with other people. Because you realize that the goal is to master yourself, and then everybody else, you realize that the whole game is a mirror, it’s a projection. That’s kind of the beginning of the plant medicine. 

Actually, one of our mentors, Dr. Patricia Allen, had come into our lives about 11 years before. But I didn’t understand what she was saying, because I wasn’t ready to receive it. Lo and behold, do a bunch of plant medicine, and then realized: “Oh yeah, this lady that’s 90 knows way more than I do.” Because it’s that arrogance, that breaking the ego, or at least self-awareness of the ego. Or the child/parent state as we talk about in transactional analysis, and stepping into that adult, stepping into the responsibility. That’s what plant medicine has given me, is the ability to be aware of my ego state, so that I may choose. It gave me choice to where I used to just be a chaotic ball of energy running around slamming into things, because that’s how my parents dealt with things. As transaction analysis talks about, we copy authority. I was either my parents, or in this victim state, which is child ego. All of a sudden, plant medicine dropped me into my adult state and said: Oh wow, I have choice in how I react to things. I don’t have choice about feelings, but I have the choice about the action that I take around my feelings. Instead of just projecting them onto everyone and everything, and destroying myself and everybody around me in the wake of it. So that’s kind of a synopsis of mine.

Nicole, I want to hear from you. I just want to also reflect, if I’m understanding, Megan. I mean, this is important. The point at which you had your first experience with the plant medicine, and the first one, you had done a level of your own personal work, and you also were a yoga instructor. So a lot of people talk about the importance of embodiment and feeling things experientially. Still, this gave you perspective on such a big scale. This is one of the things I did a lot of graduate training at a transpersonal psychology school, and there was a whole division of really looking at altered states of consciousness, and some of those professors having done some of that research in the earlier years. Part of the analogy that was described to us was, it’s almost as if these plant medicines can show you the top of the mountain, and it gives you that perspective, and it still requires a level of integration. One can still accomplish that perhaps understanding through climbing the mountain. But when you talk about culture and family and ego structure and how much is already in place. I’m seeing your face, and I want to hear you. Do you want to respond to that, and then we’ll turn to Nicole? Or would you want to hold that?

Yes, you can do all of this without plant medicine 100%. But I will say that it is essentially like taking an airplane versus driving across the country. 

Or walking. 

Well, yeah, walking is probably better. Falling. They say ignorance is bliss, but it’s really not. Because I didn’t know what I was doing wrong. I was like: Oh no, my parents have functioned this way, their parents functioned this way. I’m pretty functional. Look at me, I’m successful, I’ve done all these things. There’s nothing wrong.” But yet, where it was coming out was in my relationships. I was a wreck, because feelings. When I was logical, everything was great. It’s like, oh yeah. But childhood trauma repeats in your relationships, and I couldn’t figure it out for the longest time. But I was bulldozing in with masculine energy, and it was like everywhere. We’ll get into that later. 

It’s probably worth noting too, that as humans, we’re wired up with this natural tendency to seek comfort and to be in a protective place. So this is perhaps not working for us when we’re trying to expand and heal. Okay, I appreciate.

I couldn’t recommend it more. If you’re called in, you will know. Because my first calling was actually to Ayahuasca, in about 2015. Before, I had even thought about mushrooms. I read an article about it and I was like, I want to do this. So you know, and I say that to people all the time. 

Free A Couple Kissing Stock Photo

“Search your nervous system and search your heart before you take a step into any kind of plant medicine or anything. Because your soul knows, and it’s ready to do the work when it’s ready to do the work.”

That’s a big thing that we teach is teaching people how to listen to that inner voice that says I’m ready, or this is what I need. Because we know.

We do. Nicole, I’d love to hear from you about just where you’d like to start here in helping people get to know you, and what got you interested in serving people in this way?

Yeah, absolutely. So Megan is like the catalyst of this world. Astrologically, she’s double Aries. I’m a Cancer Virgo. I’m over here, like: “Oh my God, I don’t really like risk, and I love being comfortable.” But I think it was really, like Megan said, 15 years ago. I remember going to the sister group of Alcoholics Anonymous, what is it called? Al-Anon. I remember having a mentor, and it was just like she was giving me all this information, and I was like: “It’s everyone else’s fault, I’m fine.” She’s like, well, you have to make amends. I was like, why? They hurt me. As I took on this narrative in my head, because I was a narcissist, so I was stuck in child state, and I had a lot of trauma. 

I remember my first mentor being like, we can’t talk to people like that. I’m like, what do you mean I can’t talk to people like that? They’re being an asshole, I’m going to be a double asshole! I will never forget this time in earlier years of my career. She pulled me aside and she’s like, “You’re no longer allowed to work with clients. Your tone is off, the way you treat people is off, and your ego is running the show. Until you can figure it out, you’re going to sit in the back, and you’re going to self-reflect.” I mean, ideally, that’s what she did, she put me in a corner. I remember being so angry at her, because I was like, well, how dare you? But she was my mentor, and I respected her. Because I was like, maybe this lady might know something. But at the same time, I was fighting myself. I was constantly in a state of fighting. I was constantly flipping in between victimhood and just acting out, highly emotional, unstable mess. 

For a majority of my younger years, I had coped with using high amounts of marijuana, or I had sports. So I had outlets. But then when I became an adult, I didn’t have outlets anymore. I had to be sober. I had to do things. I had to function. So it kind of just snowballed into this massive reflection of self, because a mentor just said you need to check yourself. In that, it was like, what and how do I do this? It kind of opened the floodgates to realizing that there’s so much to the human brain and to the body that I could never. It worm-holed. Megan and I both have always had this insane fascination with the body and the mind and all this stuff. Having been big into yoga, because Megan went and studied with Bikram and was Bikram teacher and had gotten me into Bikram, I started really practicing a lot of yoga. And I was like, there’s something to this. Like, I have to face myself when I’m on a yoga mat. I know there’s no one else here. The teacher can tell me what to do, but I am I have to be. 

So it just kind of got deeper and deeper and deeper. I remember a client telling me about a book, The Body Keeps Score. I remember reading this book and just being like, holy shit! Like, oh my God, my body has a memory and I’m acting out of all of these memories over and over and over and over again. So I don’t know if there was ever really a tipping point of just change. It was just more or less like, I don’t want to be like this anymore. No knock on Western psychology by any means. But I remember going to the therapist’s office, and I had multiple therapists. Like, multiple, multiple, multiple. I remember having the same conversation over and over and over again, and everyone just validated my victimhood. When I look back on it, I was like: “Oh wow, is this because they get paid by my insurance company?” Like, what is it? They weren’t ever giving me tools. I was like, this isn’t working. I don’t know why it’s not working, but it’s not working. It was a very turbulent relationship, and a lot of self-reflection that got us to where we are now in COVID. But plant medicine was the breaking point. It came up in Megan’s field first with Rapé. Then I went to a very intense hot yoga teacher training for six weeks in Utah, and I had this body energetic shaman body worker. He was like, you’re so energetically blocked, you really should consider microdosing. I was like, what, mushrooms? Wait, what? I was like, I took those in college. He was like, you really should consider it, because energetically, things are so stuck in your body. Well, that makes sense. Having been an athlete, having read [Body Keeps The Score], fascia is like our second brain. Outside of our regular brain, we have fascia, we have our gut, and we have all these like other memory banks. And I had so much stuck in my in my body, there’s just so much.

From there, I didn’t microdose, I didn’t do yoga. Because I probably would have been an absolute train wreck. I probably would have cried every single day on the mat. But when I got back from that training, it kind of like opened up. Megan had sought out a microdosing mentor, I had sought out a microdosing mentor, and then it just snowballed, and it was like, oh my God! And we had collected all these tools from working with Dr. Pat and these other things, and we started implementing them, and they started working. And we started being like, this dates so far back even just into Taoism. I’ve always been fascinated with Taoism, but understanding energy and moving energy. But these plant medicines were able to show me who I was. Because I looked in the mirror and I had made a narrative based on what my parents had told me who I was, based on my childhood. I got the power back to look in the mirror and say: “No, I want to rewrite this. I don’t want this, ideally, system or program in my brain anymore. I want it to be removed and put something new in, because this is the healthier pattern.” In the bigger medicines, like we were talking about Ayahuasca, it’s so self-reflective. But you have to be open and ready for it. Because if not, it can be extremely overwhelming to the psyche. You have to go in and full surrender, or you suffer all night long. So I would say, it really just kind of fell into place, and I just listened to what was going on around me. At that point, I was mature enough to start listening. Because I do believe that things come into your field for a reason, and people come into your life for a reason. And when I started listening and paying attention, and not being a selfish brat that was like I know better, things just started opening. And then, here we are doing this.

How many years have you been in the practice, four?

Four years. It will be four years coming up in January.

Well, I want to just reflect, if I’m understanding this, you both have your individual story and journey. Yet, what I’m hearing that feels similar is you were both seeking and you were both interested, and you both were aware enough to recognize discontent and what you’re experiencing in your relationships and your life. Also, respectively, whether or not it was a subtle mirror or a really big fat mirror, and being able to say you need to take a seat. Like, there’s some feedback that you were getting that you turn towards. That even if it wasn’t what you wanted to hear it and feel good, that there was a turning towards that feedback and a willingness. And as you speak into the surrender and even the plant medicine, that there’s such an invitation that you both walked through and into.

Yeah, absolutely. I think we were actually just talking about this at breakfast. Plant medicine really helps you in the relationship with self. Then having a mentor, coach, transactional analysis, anything where you can talk it out, is learning how to have relationships with other people. Because so often, plant medicine shows us “us,” but it doesn’t show us “us” with others. But our relationship with ourselves reflects in others. Like Megan had said earlier, things play out in relationships because it’s internal trauma that has not been processed. So right now we’re seeing this massive bridge of this, like Western world needs this new age of plant medicine, and they actually can really work harmoniously together when both accept each other.

Well, and it was the desire for a life that didn’t revolve around suffering. 

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“Pain is a non-negotiable. In fact, how we interpret love or anything, we don’t know, or we don’t love somebody until we’re afraid to lose them. That’s the fear of pain. That’s the fear of suffering. So pain is a non-negotiable, and actually, we need it.”

It’s been constant work and constant growth, and these are things that I had to come to terms with. But the thing is, is I think it was just the desire of like, I know there’s more to life than this, and we have found that. Suffering is not a life sentence. In fact, it’s probably programmed into you of thinking that, oh, it’s normal to suffer. It’s not. As humans, I think that we’re evolving into this place that’s out of materialistic goals. In fact, the goal is to be whole, to feel wholeness, to love self, and to be able to have these interactions that are full of joy, and to face pain and to walk through it and to not avoid it, and not stay in your comfort zone. Because really, your comfort zone is the worst suffering imaginable. And we live in a society that doesn’t just demand no pain, but in fact, it demands pleasure to replace pain. This is where we get addiction. I don’t know anybody that’s not an addict, and I am one too. We had a father that was an alcoholic and a mother that was also raised in an alcoholic home, so she’s essentially a dry drunk. It’s an addictive patterning of the mind. And there’s more. There is really more to life than suffering. That’s just what I want people to know, is that when you stop fearing, when you stop thinking that I’ve got to get away from pain, I’ve got to get away from pain, and just turn around and face it and love yourself through it and step in, that’s where love and joy live. It’s in the stepping in. Because if you’re in the materialistic, hedonistic tendencies, you’re killing yourself. That’s why you get disease. That’s why people get sick, and it’s all connected to illness in the soul. That’s also why Nicole and I are practicing stoics, and we have spiritual teachers that practice that. Because stoicism grounds you into unconditional love. It’s actually the only way that you can love yourself and other people, is to be stoic. If you’re a hedonist, it seems like a lot more fun. But it’s addiction and it will kill you. That’s 95% of the population, which is just an insane statistic. 

So I think people like what you’re doing Dr. Jess, and what we’re doing, is we’re trying to get people through our own journeys, to see there’s more in the suffering and the mental illness. If everything that we have been doing in the past worked, we wouldn’t be in the situation we’re in. It’s time to bring back. Psyche actually comes from, and you probably know this, but in case your listeners don’t, from the Goddess Psyche. So actually psychology is named after her. She was the goddess of mind, body, and soul, all three. They’re all connected, and you can’t have one without the other. She was Eros’s wife and she started out human. It’s so funny. When you look at mythology, how many lessons are in it. This has been the same for thousands of years. People have been talking about this. The path to joy, the path to enlightenment, it’s all been there. It’s just that people unfortunately make a lot of money off of people’s suffering, and we need to start realizing that and taking responsibility, and not turning to people that make money off of your suffering, to stay in the cycles. Because in my opinion, that’s what’s been happening. Because we have all the answers. It’s just that if you are self-sufficient, they’re not making money off of you. If your mind, body, and soul are healthy, and in working order, they’re not making money off of you. Because you’re enjoying love, and you have healthy relationships, and you have your health and things like that. This is nothing new, which is crazy. It’s nothing new. 

So as we were talking, before we started even to record, there was some discussion, and you were sharing about the importance of getting back into balance. As you’re talking about the world and our lives as we’ve known it up until now, particularly if we come from certain family systems and certain traumas and toxicities of dynamics, that that is what’s comfortable and familiar. Then you add in a lot of the messages that we might get from culture, through social media, through advertising, through various, that are responding and accessing human needs. But the path to that, you’re really questioning and trying to offer alternative to the path. That there is so much ability for us to become more whole become, more balanced, be able to really look at our tendency to avoid pain, seek pleasure, and really look at the essence of this. I know we’re going to get into that. So I appreciate you just really helping people hear that there’s an imbalance and we’re suffering, and when we’re habitually in this state, it’s reinforcing, and this disconnect. Even I’ve had guests on the show that have even argued, we’re largely living in disassociation in modern living. 

So before we go too far on that, because I do want to give us some space for plant medicine. I know you have a tremendous regard and respect for the lineage of plant medicine. Can you give us some orientation, for people who don’t have a lot of familiarity, just about the medicine and how you operate with microdosing with the differences, and then how you even work with people internationally?

Yeah. So we get this question quite often, like, what is a microdose? Am I going to be high? What’s going to happen? I’m scared. Which is a very valid thing. Because we’ve been programmed since mid-60s and 70s. A Nixon campaign did a great job; war on drugs was a huge thing. We all have seen the egg frying in the pan. Like, this is what your brain looks like, on drugs. It’s terrifying, especially as a child. We grew up in the 90s during [The Dare]. Like, don’t do drugs, bottom line. So they were demonized. They were scheduled as class one narcotics, all of this list of things. The research was actually the opposite. When we go and we do the research and we look at it, that a lot of it has been declassified, it is accessible on Google. It’s all the opposite. It’s the exact opposite, which is mind boggling. We could totally go down that, but we’re not going to. So microdosing is when you take anything that is a lower amount, under one gram. So most of the time we work between 200 and 400 milligrams, which is equivalent to a Tylenol. A Tylenol is 500 milligrams. For basic headache, you take one. It’s a lower dose than that. So when you take a small dose of psilocybin, we particularly work in psilocybin, it doesn’t create anything in the body outside of just a light sub-perceptual effect. 

So what is sub-perceptual effect? You are more aware of your surroundings; you’re more aware of your hands, you’re more aware of your thoughts. A lot of our clients will say, I just got rid of the mind chatter. I’m like, that’s actually great. That’s right where you’re supposed to be, that dosing is perfect for you. People can drive. You can work. You can listen to music. You can talk to your boss. You can show up to a meeting. You can have a podcast. Because it’s so minor. But what is happening in the brain is it’s softening what we call the neuroplasticity. So the neuroplasticity is, there’s thousands and millions of neural pathways in our entire body that are mainly found in the brain. By the time we’re 25, they’re 100% solidified in men; women are a little bit earlier than that. But over that early age to 25, we’re being programmed, where things are imprinting. We’re very similar to a computer hard drive. This is how it is, and every time you turn your computer on, it’s the same screen; you see your toolbar at the bottom, you’ve got your folders. That’s very similar to what your neuroplasticity is. Then when you introduce something like a microdose of psilocybin, you’re starting to move the files around; you’re starting to maybe make a new folder, or you’re starting to open a new web browser. Because it’s softening the neuroplasticity, but at the same time, creating new neural networks. So you’re creating new. 

Science actually has no idea how this works. We were at a conference, and they were talking about psilocybin. What is his name, Hamilton Morrison? He did a huge thing called Pharmacopoeia advice, and he was talking about this. He’s one of the leading chemists in the development of even synthetic, all mind-alternating chemicals. He’s probably one of the very few humans that has done an astronomical amount of psychedelics at this point on earth. He was giving a speech about how they actually don’t know how psilocybin works in the body, they just know it works. It’s something chemically, but they don’t know how to synthesize it, and they don’t know how, and they don’t know why. It’s actually really fascinating. Because if you look at mycelium, it looks very, very, very similar to a brain. The way the pathways are, the white sheath on our brain, all of that stuff. Then when we even zoom out even more, it looks like fascia in the body, which is that white sheath that covers all of our muscles. So somehow it’s communicating, and somehow it’s breaking it down into creating and allowing the brain to expand and grow. 

So when you’re working in small microdoses, you’re able to really become aware of things, which is why you’re able to look at yourself. It also works directly in the frontal lobe in the DMN, also known as the Default Mode Network. Ego lives in the DMN. So it calms the ego states. So you’re able to say: Oh wow, I’m reacting to this, some reason why I’m triggered. You’re able to step back and be like: Oh okay, I need to look and observe. That’s a beautiful thing about microdosing. I have found with Megan, working with clients, and even ourselves, it allows for this zooming out of situations in such a mild manner that it’s not overwhelming. But you’re able to, in the mind and in the nervous system, identify what’s going on, and work through it. 

So when you’re first starting off, it can be very overwhelming. That’s why we mentor people. Because a lot of times people aren’t even in tune with their nervous system enough to be able to be like: “Oh my God, I’m feeling like this.” I’ll never forget, one of our clients, she started microdosing. She texts me and she was like, oh my God, my hands! I was like, yeah. She’s like, “I never realized how important they are, how my craft is all about my hands, and I have so much gratitude towards my hands.” Because they’re upended, we don’t pay a lot of attention. But it was just that recognition of being in the present moment. It takes you out of this past and future, and it really drops you into that moment. So a lot of people will talk about, oh, my anxiety went away. Yeah, you’re no longer in your past or in your future. You’re right here right now. Anxiety can’t live in the present moment, because that’s not how it works.

To have choice. To what you were saying, Megan, it gives more range to or experience, that we’re not habitually living in this current state and thinking the same thoughts, and the repetition of that. That there’s a little bit more access, and we can have some directives and choice. Do you also work with intention?

Yes, it’s huge. Intention is everything. Well, I believe in having a mentor your whole life. It’s not just in plant medicine. In general, finding those people that you admire and that you want to be more like, and having a mentor to constantly better yourself and be more. I just believe in that in general. I will never not have a mentor in my life. Because I need a spiritual mentor, and I need somebody that calls me on my BS, and also keeps me in alignment of where my soul is and where it wants to go. But having a mentor, especially in plant medicine, of holding an intention high, holding your highest self for you, and being like, no, this is where you’re going. Because the thing is, these things are nothing to mess with. I have a very, very, very, very, very high respect for them. I have seen things that have changed my life in a second, and I have so much respect and so much admiration for what they’re capable of doing. I think we’ve lost a general discipline and respect for things, as humans have lost now 60% of the population doesn’t believe in a God. I don’t care what that God is. It’s just a God of your understanding. There’s spiritual illness if you don’t believe that there’s something more than you, it creates a lot of spiritual illness. 

But having that intention is communicating with the Divine, it’s communicating with the universe. Even if it’s just the Cosmos that you believe is more than you, that’s fine. But that intention is communicating. Like, the universe is working for me, not to me, and that I have the ability to form who I am and put things out into the world and have it come back. Because that’s love. So we do work in a ton of intention-framing and having the tools, so that when you’re in that moment of wanting to react, you have tools to take action. Because we live in a society, like you said, that’s very dissociative, and they just react. They react, react, react, and then they regret it later, and then you get shame, guilt, addiction, etc. Because it all goes together. But if you have that moment, and this is what we love about psychedelics, especially microdosing, where it’s like, boom! Something happens, and you’re like, feelings, or choice. It’s that grounding moment. Because that’s what I didn’t have, and most of our clients didn’t have.

As a parent that’s helping to guide and regulate.

Yeah. I always tell people, I’m like your surrogate mother. I’m the mother you didn’t have but always wanted, but I’m going to be the biggest pain in the ass you’ve ever met. Because I’m going to hold you accountable. I know what your soul is capable of. I know what you came here to do. The funny thing is, is that all humans want to be of service; they want to help. We all have the same goals. But your trauma is your strength. What you have been through is in direct relation to what your purpose is. So we help people transmute that. People say, victim to victor. That’s exactly what it is. It’s like the man in the arena, the Roosevelt quote. It’s so important that you realized that you came into this life, and maybe a ton of stuff happened to you. But that’s the thing. We call it street cred. It’s like when you get to help the people that you came here to help, you become, excuse my language, but I love this word, unfuckable with. Because you can say, uh-unh, no, no, no. Step in, enough! I’m not letting you be a victim to your life. I mean, I don’t know how many times my mentor has just laid it out for me, and I cry, and I’m like, oh my gosh! But guess what, I step in more every time. Because I cannot BS her, I can’t. That’s what we all need is somebody to hold our souls accountable and to a higher purpose. This is how we all are, and I think psychedelics have such a huge part in that. Because it gives you a shortcut. 

There aren’t that many shortcuts in life, and I think that’s what Nicole and I found. It was like, oh my gosh! But thank God, our understanding of God, that we have tools and framing, and people that were already there to help pave the way that can explain to me why I am the way I am. This goes into masculine and feminine energy. 

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“Most women nowadays are what are called alpha females, and they are the most androgynous beings there’s ever been. That’s because our masculine is wild.”

Like, I’m ambitious, I’m driven. I will take on anybody in any debate. That’s masculine energy. But yet, I also have this creative capacity and this feminine energy that is so polarizing. I remember I used to think, how come I can be this crazy biker chick that wants to ride a Harley? Then on the other hand, I’m like, Jackie O and so feminine, and just docile and want someone to cuddle with. There’s this polarity to women now. Dr. Pat Allen talks a lot about this. But I remember her saying alpha female, and I’m like, what is that? Isn’t everybody? It’s like, no. 20% of the population is, and you’re seeing more and more women stepping into owning their own companies or being entrepreneurs. These are alpha women, and I think it’s the rise of the divine feminine, and we came here to bring balance to that. That is not rejecting our feminine, because a lot of us have in order to be successful. You’re hearing a lot of people, at least on Instagram and stuff, some of our mentors talk about, it’s rigid masculine energy, and then it’s feminine flow, where you’re spending time in the bubble bath, where you’re meditating, where you get to be impulse. That hasn’t been a choice, I know it wasn’t for our mother and her mother. They were so in their masculine, and their bodies would break down, and they’d get cancer and all of these things. 

Because they weren’t allowed to be in their feminine. So now, I think also with psychedelics, especially Ayahuasca, she’s feminine, or the grandmother. If anybody’s ever done Ayahuasca, she’s very bossy. That voice, I don’t know if everybody’s heard it, but every time I do Ayahuasca, it’s like, she’s your loving grandmother. But man, is she like, unconditional love, but she’s so bossy. I also take that as the divine feminine, because it is the unconditional love of the feminine. We’re great with framing what actually we do is androgynous semantic realignment with an emphasis in transactional analysis. So Eric Bern, and then we believe that everybody is androgynous. It goes back to Carl Jung’s theory of the Anima and the Animus. That humans, when we integrate both, that we’re able to move through both, fluid. 3D is masculine, the ethereal is feminine, and you have to learn that flow state, and then the boundaries of being 3D in order to be successful in abundance flows when our energies are balanced. The country culture, you name it, the earth pretty much is out of balance in the masculine and feminine. So that’s the androgynous realignment that we do. We teach people what masculine and feminine energy are, and then how to flow in and out of them so that they may live more fulfilled lives. 

Men don’t know love until they meet a woman. Actually, men are naturally hedonistic, and feminine are the ethereal. We’re oxygen. They’re bricks. We make life fun. That’s what this world has lost is that divine feminine and that flow state, and that’s what we’re really starting to see come back in psychedelics. Or at least that’s been a lot of my healing was just coming back into my feminine. I didn’t realize why I had so many problems on the right side of my body. It’s like, oh yeah, because I’m constantly in my masculine, my shoulders and everything. But the beauty of that and the understanding of even being both masculine and feminine, that we have both energies and that we can move through them fluidly and effortlessly. When we understand I’m out of balance. Oh okay, I’m working 10-hour days, I’m way too far in my masculine. I’ve got to go get a massage, or go sit and get a pedicure, go take care of myself, take care of my nervous system. Because that’s where women, they get super anxiety, and their shoulders go like this, and it is rigid masculine. It’s like, oh my gosh, I can just breathe. And we wonder why our heart chakras are messed up, and why so many women are getting breast cancer. It’s all heart chakra stuff. 

Well, and I think it is important to mention that this is a lot of Carl Jung’s theory of believing that the feminine has a masculine soul and the masculine has a feminine soul, because it’s the yin and yang. It’s the Taoist Carl Jung’s belief in many different tribes, updating very far back, of how women right now, our souls have come forward to protect us, and it’s a cultural pandemic. Because women don’t feel safe anymore, and there’s a lot of things that can be contributed to that. But energetically, we’re seeing the mass of women that are like: Hey, I need to relax into my feminine and breathe a little bit, and not have to have this masculine soul just forging forward with a samurai sword, just annihilating everything in front of me. I think even right now, we’re talking, there’s a lot of feminism that are shifting into loving the masculine again, because it swung so far. Like, screw the patriarchy, blah, blah, blah. It’s coming back of saying: Hey, we have to unify, we have to stand together, we have to figure this out. Because it’s not working, and it’s really toxic, and we have to unify. We have to stand by each other like a king and a queen did in many ancient empires and in Egypt and all these things, and say like: “Hey, I need you, and you need me.”

I think the Anima and Animus is what Carl Jung talked about, and like you said, it goes back to Taoism. But it’s realizing, if you harbor hate, that’s something you hate about yourself, and you’re projecting it onto society. Like, why is this the way that it is? Just to clarify, that masculine and feminine energy, we’re all androgynous. 

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“You can be a feminine core or masculine core, and it doesn’t matter what you were born as. I believe that everybody is born divinely perfect and for the mission that you’re on, that you can be whatever energy you wish or that you feel most drawn to.”

Like I said, we both own a company, but we’re both feminine cores. Like, in my relationship, I want to be the feminine. At work, I want to take on the world. But again, it’s that choice. But it’s also knowing, when I step into my relationship, that I can take the gloves off and go into my neurosis and surrender into the feminine, and leave my Animus, leave your balls in the closet.

Well, and the way that they work together, there’s a relationship here that you’re describing. That they can be in support of one another, they can have a place in which they are maybe the lead in certain domains. So there’s a real regard and respect for the value of both energies. So as we look at people who are listening and maybe learning about plant medicine, it sounds as though someone might be able to recognize how they’re feeling, suffering individually. They also might be able to recognize in their relationship. Similarly, there’s so much more potential, there’s so much love and the quality of which we feel we have potential for together, and yet we keep running into these same problematic cycles and dynamics. Yes, there’s a lot that can be learned about attachment style, and what moves we have and how we do that. Then also, you’re saying there’s an assist with the plant medicine that can open us up to really have so much more access and reveal to what’s available. Do you guide people if people don’t have a clear intention? Do you help them integrate in their experience? Can you say a little bit more here?

So we do, we guide people with intention. A lot of people don’t know what they want or they need, or any of the things. So we do, we really work deep in intention. It’s also connecting with like, intention is vibrational. It’s energy. So our thoughts and feelings carry energetic frequencies. So being able to really help people to even get in tune enough energetically to say, this is what I want to work on. Because most of us are running around in pure chaos, and we can’t sit long enough to even actually be like, “Oh, I want this.” It’s always a distraction. 

So I’m guiding that, especially when we’re working in microdosing, we give our clients opportunity. Like, you can set an intention. We send a mass intention, a macro, and then we send micros, smaller ones every day. If they choose to do so, we see the most success with people that work in intention. 

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“An intention is very different than goal-setting. Intentions are everyday. People shift and change on a daily basis, and it doesn’t lock them into something permanent. It just brings awareness.”

So it guides the frequency also with the fungi. The plant medicines all have energetic frequency, like Megan had mentioned. Like, Ayahuasca is the godmother or the grandmother. She carries a very high feminine vibration. She works on the right side of the body. She works in the feminine wounds. Peyote, and what’s the other one I’m thinking of that’s masculine? Iboga, which one is it? I don’t remember. But the peyote is the sister to Ayahuasca, which is masculine. It works in the masculine side of the body, the left side; the father wounds, things like that. So really being aware of energetically where are you, what are you working on? Most people come to us like, I don’t have trauma. That’s my favorite. I don’t have trauma. I’m like: Oh, that’s cool. Being alive and being a human, you have trauma. That’s just life. So really understanding what is clear, what is it, what do you want? And going after that and wanting to lean into it and heal is definitely a big part of what we do. 

Integration-wise, with bigger plant medicines, we are there to support. We absolutely give guidance. But we never try to be invasive in regards to telling someone what it was. We’re more there to listen. Because especially with Ayahuasca, and other plant medicines, we can actually never know, because we’re not in their minds. We don’t know. We’re here to listen and help guide and decipher where needed, like pinpointing. “Okay, that’s a feminine wound, let’s look at that. Dig deeper.” But we’re not here to say: “Oh, this is X, Y, and Z.” Because we’re not there; we’re not that person. We’re just guides.

Well, and we do integration even with microdoses. That’s what our coaching really is, is like: Okay, what’s happened, what’s going on, what’s been your experience, what questions do you have? Then it’s like, how do I deal with this differently? That’s the tools. A good example of that is when you get in a fight with somebody, because inevitably, that’s what happens in life. It’s like, somebody is saying something or your partner is doing something, and the first thing you do is stroke the brain. Because norepinephrine is a thing in the brain. and most of us manipulate chemistry and each other’s brains instead of manipulating the broca. So we teach people how to communicate, because that’s the most powerful thing on the planet is communication, because that’s what a relationship is. 

So for example, if Nicole or somebody says something to me that I don’t like, you have every right to feel and say, do that. That’s fine. So that’s a stroke. It’s saying, you have a right to feel, because they do. You can’t do anything about a feeling, except for medicate yourself, take drugs, become an addict, kill yourself, or kill the person. That’s literally all you can do, sadly. What you can do is physically take a step back, validate that they’re having a feeling so that they’re not going into shame or guilt or fear. You have every right. Then it’s saying, the next step would be a stand. “But I don’t feel good when you do that.” Then the next is writing a contract. “Would you please not come at me like that?” So how are we going to work on this? Then you go into negotiation. Because really, what we find in society over and over again, is people use shame and guilt to manipulate, or they use fear to intimidate. That’s how people communicate, and that’s why we wonder why people are so jacked up. Negotiating is saying: “Hey, you have a right, but this is how I feel. How do we work on this together? How do I help us feel better?” Or if you’re talking to a man, how do I help us do better? Because men like to do things; women like to feel things. So it’s coming up with tools like that, that help your communication, help your relationship. So you’re validating somebody’s feelings, you’re validating what somebody is thinking. But then you’re also saying, this is where I stand, and how do we do this together? Because that’s how you are functional. You teach how to negotiate, and this is transactional analysis. Instead of fear, guilt, intimidation, it is negotiation. That’s what the goal is. 

So really, integration is learning tools on how do I function differently? How do I change the patterning? How do I hold space so that somebody isn’t shrinking, and they’re able to be themselves? But that we come together as whole beings and find unity, not codependency. Because fear, guilt, intimidation, are all codependent, and you’re going to have issues. So a lot of integration is coming back and saying: “Okay, so this and this and this is going on. How do I function differently in my life?” Because what we’ve seen with ourselves and with other people is like, stuff is coming up. You know, you can have the worst thing ever happened to you, but your biggest problem is it’s always in relationships. What do I do in my relationship? “Oh my gosh, my mom was murdered as a child. But my husband is doing this.” 

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“It’s like, people are obsessed with relationships, because they’re repeating the traumatic pattern. So what we need to do is heal the relationship. Then, weirdly enough, somehow, that pattern in the past or the pain in the past starts to dissipate, because you’re validating feelings.”

That’s what we don’t make space for in this world is people’s feelings. That’s why the feminine is starting to have a resurgence, because that is our feelings. It’s our nervous system, and you have every right to have feelings. That’s actually where most of the trauma happens is that people aren’t allowed to have feelings. That’s why the suicide rate is 50% more than it was even three years ago, because people aren’t allowed to have feelings. It’s also my opinion on mental health, is it’s all back to feelings. 

Well, and I think plant medicine allows people to drop into their body and get out of their mind. So often, we spend so much time in our heads all day every day. It takes a lot. A lot of times, people, individuals, when they start with plant medicine, the first two weeks is just so many feelings. Because it’s the first time in a long time they’ve been in their body, and actually had the space and been given permission to feel.

Yeah. There’s so much here, I realize, that we would probably be here for a week and really not even do it full justice. I really have regard for not only, it sounds like we were talking before we started to record, and just to mention that when you work internationally with the bigger plant medicines, you’re working with shamans and really honoring the lineage of that plant medicine, and also the healing tradition in the shamans, and really supporting the experience. But that you’re not facilitating the actual plant medicine internationally. Do you want to comment on that?

We work in our microdosing mentorships here. But any big plant medicine, like Ayahuasca, Kambo, Bufo, Ibogaine, Iboga, all of that is done in South America or Mexico, with traditional shamans. We don’t work with anyone stateside with that, just because we believe in the traditions. It’s also respect to a medicine, where it’s come from. So we work in traditional base.

We have shamans that do the ceremonies. We’re just a go-between, because we can bring people to them. But we don’t run any of the big plant medicine ceremonies, just because it’s not in our lineage. I know people do it, and that’s to their prerogative. But after what I have seen in plant medicine ceremonies, I think, in my opinion, it’s unsafe. You are messing in people’s psychology, spiritual stuff that I think people can get in very, very serious situations, and they don’t understand what they’re messing with. So we believe in traditional shamans being there, and we’ve been grateful every time that they have been. Because what people are working through sometimes on a spiritual level, when the shamans can see it and help them do that, I don’t have the capacity to do that, nor do I want to. That’s not my calling. 

Yeah. The big part about us and what we believe in is, there’s a lot of things happening right now in the plant medicine world, where shamans are actually being taken severely advantage of. That’s one big part of Megan and I’s promise to working with traditional shamans, is actually, the money goes to the shamans. We take care of our shamans, because they have studied. I mean, one of the shamans has been serving since he was eight. He comes from a fourth generation of Colombian shamanism. Literally, it’s in his DNA at this point. A lot of these places don’t pay their shamans, they don’t take care of their shamans, and that’s a big part of, unfortunately, the dark side of plant medicine, this capitalistic idea of making money on healing. If you are going to go sit in these, please do your research, because it’s so important. A lot of shamans don’t work for a lot, and they come from very poor tribes; they’re not taken care of, and they’re taken advantage of. That’s one thing is we really strive to take care of them, because they are also a big part of the healing journey. Without it, I wouldn’t be facilitating, and Megan wouldn’t be facilitating. So it’s gratitude on that behalf of recognizing the lineage and paying respects to it.

Yeah, and I kind of mentioned this earlier. But just, this stuff is nothing to mess with. I don’t need to go into stories, but just be warned. Like, you’re doing some very, very deep spiritual work. This is going to sound funny. But if some white boy that has learned how to make Ayahuasca on the internet, and has only done it three times, you start drinking Ayahuasca with him and you get into some of the situations that I have seen people get into, you can cause more damage than you ever thought possible. What happened in your childhood and everything is going to be nothing compared to the things that you can see and the things that can go on. 

The thing about shamans is that they live between planes, and they can see what’s going on in your Ayahuasca, and they actually guide it. There’s a really good podcast called Medicine of the Gods, where he went down and worked with shamans, and how the shamans actually can see in your field what you need to work on, and help guide that. If you’re working with some human that doesn’t know how to live between planes, and understands the spirit world and understands what goes on in the spirit world, and understands that we’re souls having a human experience and that you’re going into the soul plane. 

Trust me, just take my word for it. Don’t do it. Go to a shaman, spend the extra money. There may be some white people in this world that have gone down and done the studying and done all of that. But just again, do your research. I wouldn’t personally do that. You might feel differently. But just again, if I can say anything, please, please, please, if you’re on the heavier doses, ask a lot of questions, and my thing would be a Colombian shaman. Because there’s also Brujas, I won’t get too far into that. But this is your soul’s healing. Spend the money. Spend the time. Make sure it feels right. Your nervous system knows so much. It’s like, “This feels right, I know this is what I’m supposed to do.” But if you get that ting of like, something’s off, don’t do it. Don’t do it.

Well, and also looking at, there’s a lot of places that on a weekend, they’ll sit 200 people in a ceremony, and one shaman with maybe four or five guardians. To me, that’s not enough support. It’s unethical, they’re making money. Everything costs money. But looking at things like that, if you’re in a situation where there’s a lot of other people suffering, you’re going to need support. Because at some point, when you’re working in these medicines, you’re going to need help. It could just be you need help to go to the bathroom. But you don’t want to perpetuate a potential trauma of abandonment or of loneliness, because of an experience where you’re working really deep in the soul and in the subconscious.

Well, again, there’s so much that you both have knowledge about, have information and ability to guide people. If it’s working directly with you, as you take a certain amount of people, number of people, in a very discerned way, intentional way, to do a ceremony internationally. Or if it’s to be microdosing and doing the coaching with you. How do people get in touch with you, if they want to learn more? Tell me. Tell us.

Yeah. So our website is Zenchronicity222.com. It has got everything on there about Megan and I, how to apply for our programme. Our podcast is on there. We have information about our retreats that we host. Really just kind of an overview of everything. Then we have Instagram on Zenchronicity_Sisters. That is where we do a lot of reels about content we work on, relationship things. We talk about a lot of things, mainly focusing on body chemistry, and then we talk about plant medicine as well, transactional analysis, things like that. So if you’re kind of like, I don’t really know, that’s a great place to start. Because we just do quick little reels that it’s like a snippet of a minute and a half, instead of a two-hour podcast. Because we both love to talk. 

Your podcasts are two hours? 

Sometimes. But then we have Zenchronicity_Podcast. So we bring people on to our podcast. We have individual podcasts. We talk about plant medicine. We talk about therapists. We have all sorts of different people that come on there, and then also ourselves. That one does have an Instagram page. It’s really that we update when we’re dropping podcasts. We drop a podcast once a week, whether it’s with a guest. Or it is the topic of our weekly newsletter. 

So those are kind of the best ways. If you do just have questions, you can chat with us on our website, or you can send us a DM on Instagram. We don’t use chat bots or AI chat bots on Instagram, so you will get one of us. We normally respond within 48 hours, give or take. Obviously, going into the holiday season, it might be a little more because we’re traveling. But those are the best ways to get ahold of us. Honestly, get curious, do your research. Because there’s a lot of information out there. But we do our best to give you guys the overview in our very chatty selves’ way.

Well, there’s a lot that you’re offering, and I’ll make sure to put the links on today’s show notes. Megan, is there anything you want to say about people who might be interested in learning more and what you want to encourage?

I would encourage everybody that if this piqued your interest, that on this path, just find support, no matter if it’s with us or with whoever. A really good side note is that find the people that you want to be like or that you admire. It’s like, even if we look at celebrities and everything, we like the people that act and look like us. That’s for a reason. That’s because they have codes or accomplishments that you are actually yourself looking towards. So start to pay attention to those people, and try to get in touch with them. Mentorship and all of that. You’re on the right path, and just follow your heart. Don’t be afraid to reach out to people. Because we really are all in this together. The more that we find community, and the more that people step in and stop living in fear, the faster that we all heal. I look forward to, probably being very old, but the world being a better place and a more wholehearted place. Because that’s what everybody deserves. It’s your birthright. So step in, fall in love with life. Because it really is, when you start to do this work, it’s just so much, I wouldn’t really say easier, but it’s a so much wholehearted way of living, and you feel alive. So if you identify with this, just reach out, even if it’s not to work with us. We’re actually going to be having an app that has communities of people that you can go on and chat with, and just be a part of the movement of wholeness.

Yeah. If you guys want more information, we have a microdosing 101 class available, you can buy it off of our Instagram. Also, alpha woman, if that kind of talked to you, we’re going to be launching our six-part series in January, in regards to what it is to be an alpha woman, how to communicate as an alpha woman, what is an alpha woman, and how to live in this world as an alpha?

How to find balance? Because that’s the hardest part.

Yes, authenticity, balance, wholeness. I really hear your message, and just also honoring the path, and you’re offering a specific path and really how powerful it is, and all the regard and the considerations. So I will make sure, again, to put all the links on today’s show notes. Thank you both so much for being here and sharing so much with us today.

Yeah, thank you so much for having us and being open to have this conversation. 

Yeah, thank you so much.

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