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Do you find it difficult to negotiate differing perspectives without sacrificing your own identity or creating deeper rifts? How do we balance our own needs with those of our partner? How do we stay connected even when conflict arises? Relationships can be a delicate balancing act, where the yearning for closeness and the need for autonomy often collide, leaving couples in a state of disconnection and frustration.

In this episode, we delve into this very dilemma, exploring the concept of becoming “relationship visionaries,” emphasizing the importance of prioritizing the relationship's higher intention over individual desires. Through compelling stories, visual models, and actionable advice, you'll learn how to take turns, communicate effectively, and make decisions that foster intimacy and connection. By embodying these principles, you can navigate conflicts with greater understanding and kindness, ensuring a resilient and deeply satisfying partnership.

Join us as we uncover the essence of successful relationships and offer tools to elevate your love life to new heights.

Jessica Myers-Adams is a licensed clinical social worker and certified relationship coach and is an author and speaker whose words resonate with authenticity. Her widely acclaimed book, “What To Do When You Do Give a F*ck,” has been hailed for its unabashed counsel on breathing life back into waning relationships. Through her coaching initiative, Couples Speak, Jessica has facilitated countless couples in healing fractured ties and revamping the love connection.

In this episode

8:29 The common struggle of balancing the desire for intimacy with the need for personal boundaries.

12:17 Mastering effective listening and embracing relationship vision.

24:21 Steps to negotiation, validation, and intimacy in relationships.

37:10 Cultivating curiosity and flexibility in relationship decision-making.

44:33 Explore resources and programs to enhance your relationship skills.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Ensure you fully listen to your partner's perspective without interrupting and reflect back on what you hear to show understanding.
• Take the responsibility to start important conversations, especially if you notice an issue, rather than waiting for your partner to bring it up.
• Express your thoughts and feelings using “I” statements to minimize blame and emphasize personal responsibility in conflicts.
• Create a visual representation of your relationship's highs and lows using a quadrant model to enhance awareness and understanding of your emotional states.
• Regularly review and discuss previous decisions with your partner to ensure both perspectives are still aligned and to make necessary adjustments.
• Agree on a higher intention or common goal for your relationship to guide decision-making and maintain focus during conflicts.
• Share the responsibility of being the visionary in the relationship by taking turns in decision-making and planning.
• Make a conscious effort to speak with love and listen with compassion, even during disagreements, to foster a supportive and nurturing environment.

Mentioned

What to Do When You Do Give a F*CK (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication

Connect with Jessica Myers-Adams

Websites: couplesspeak.com

Facebook: facebook.com/profile.php?id=100084765327582

Instagram: instagram.com/jessicarelationshipvisionary

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jessica-myers-adams-865136134

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About Today's Show

Jessica, thank you for joining us.

Hey, it's a pleasure. Jessica, I love two relationship experts talking—talking about how we help people, and getting into this stuff.

Yes. I appreciate, just even as we were talking before recording here, how this is something you came into and also have really walked and been through the fire, and that you are willing to share some of your own experiences. I do my best to be transparent and really acknowledge just my own journey, and still in the practice and still in the development of my own relational skills and cultivating relationship intimacy with my significant other. So I love when, yes, there's someone that's doing the work professionally, but also is very willing to be open and honest about just their own journey. So I appreciate that, thank you. 

Absolutely, I think we have to be transparent. I think the people that we work with, we may be further along on the path, but we've experienced the same things; we feel the same things. So I think being vulnerable and transparent, not seeking anything from them of course, but telling them: Hey, I've been there. I have, as I was telling you earlier, peeled out of the driveway. I've yelled. I've grown something. I have done those things. 

Yes, and just the humanity of it. I will say and join you in this, that the insecurities that I might feel or the terror that I might feel in taking an emotional risk that's new, or showing something that feels unlovable, all of the things. I just can acknowledge that it's some of the more profound work that I've done, and how it really does lead to the thing that I'm in service of, which I think we're going to be talking about today, which you regard as the North Star. Just having that vision and focus as people are orienting in relationship. 

But before we focus on that topic, what would you like people to know about you and where you're coming from here?

Yeah, thanks so much. Again, I think just to emphasize, I've been there. I've been in that relationship pit where you know you want to be with this person, and yet you can't seem to figure out the communication. You can't get them to see what you're seeing, and you certainly can't see what they're seeing. That's the most painful and lonely place, because it's your best friend, and you can't connect with them. So I really understand that, and I also now understand that there's a really clear roadmap. In fact, there's only two things that you have to do in order to be in a connected and loving relationship, I think. But it's very challenging. 

Here's what I would like to say to people, I guess is my experience, is that anytime we want to grow and change into something or improve ourselves, there's going to be another part of us that resists. So I think a lot of my work, personally and then professionally, is helping people with that inner battle. There's the part that aspires to be loving and kind, and then there's the Yes-But part. The part that says: You've hurt me, I'm digging in my heels. I'm going to be stubborn and I'm going to be uncooperative. So I think the real battle is the one within us.

Yes. Jessica, it seems like we have similar values, and just what we're up against in relationship in general. That it's very human to have both the pull, to feel close and intimate and bonded, as well as the pull of autonomy and separateness and individual pursuits. Sometimes that come closer and pull away is a tension point in relationship. So one of the things I'm hearing you describe is that while it might, in a conflict moment, feel like I want you to see me and love me, but I also feel very protective and want to have some walls and guards up. That that can feel like different motivations, like I want to be close, but I also want to feel protected. Also, sometimes we have just some conflict and play in relationship, around being close versus separate.

Absolutely, I love that. If we could only express exactly what you said to our partner in those moments. It takes so much awareness of ourselves, though, to be able to put into words what you just said there. Sometimes I think, I imagine that your clients may look to you to translate that for them to their partner. Because if we could all just say the things you said: Hey, I'm really wanting to be close to you, and I'm also really wanting to be… To say it in a way that is loving and kind. This idea of, I call it love consciousness, and that is the only thing that I think we need to have in order to be in these successful relationships. 

Because it's twofold, I said there's only two things you need to be able to do. I think it's, one: express yourself in a way that you love yourself. Meaning you're not critical or blaming, you're not finger-pointing. You're talking about yourself, and you're respectful, because that's how you want to be. Then the second part is that you have a love-conscious way of hearing the other person. You can hold on to “you love them,” and you don't have to like what they're saying and it can be different. When you say something, it doesn't mean I agree with it, or that I'm condoning it. It just means I'm allowing, because I care. So those two things: self-expression with love, and listening with love. 

I love the allowing. That is something I think many people get confronted with, that if I give allowance, I am somehow endorsing or agreeing.

I was sitting with a couple last week, and there's a tool we use, the effective listener. The wife was listening, and the husband stepped out of the office just for a minute. She said: Jessica, I'm having such a hard time listening. I said, that's okay, remember what we read right before. There was this little thing we read, and it said: Just because I listen doesn't mean I accept what they're saying is true. Just because I listen doesn't mean I condone it. It was these five things. She said: Okay, let me try again. He stepped back in, and we were able to just continue to practice that. It's a practice.

Oh my goodness, yes! Just echoing what you were describing around these tension points around wanting to feel heard and seen or expressed or be matter in the dynamic, and also the tension point between feeling wanting to be close and connected, but also feeling really protective. I feel sometimes when someone is listening and they're adamantly opposed to the description, it's almost like they're in court and they're like, I don't know if it's the bailiff or the court reporter, like, strike that from the record! Like, I have to correct it as it's being described, it's somehow that threatening or that difficult. So I think that's such a really important practice, as you're describing, to give more room and space. That it can exist, and different people's perspectives can also exist, that it doesn't necessarily mean one is right or wrong.

It's kind of like maybe if we eat the same food, you and I have the same meal, and you think that it's terrible and I think that it's amazing. We really need to be reminded of that, that that's the same exact thing in our relationship. That what I just said to my spouse felt nice and loving, and what they heard was very spicy. They can't even eat that, it's so horrible. We're looking at each other like: Whoa, it's delicious. No, you are awful. You just said that in such a mean way, and you were yelling at me. Well, I really don't think I was yelling, Jessica.

Yeah. So just to reiterate, you're saying the biggest success principle in your mind is just bringing awareness and bringing consciousness to relationship.

I love the word principle. 

Then there's these smaller pieces of it. Like, can I describe what I like? Can I describe what I think and feel? Can I do that without it being about the other person? That actually is sometimes challenging. 

I like to give examples, if this is helpful. I had a guy in my office last week, and I kept his note for the whole week. Because he was going to talk to his wife, and this is going to be inflammatory for some, but his wife was unfaithful, and they're working on it. It's an old affair, too. He was going to talk about how he has experienced some things, that was his goal. I said: Okay, can you start off with telling her what you want to talk about? He said, I'm going to talk about how you did this to me. And we stopped. He knows one of the principles, a smaller one, is to talk about himself. He said, I don't know how to do that. I said, well, let's think about it. I really encouraged him to think, I didn't give him the answer. I wish I had it in front of me, because I need the paper from last week. It said something like, I want to tell you about how I'm trying to make something okay within me that I struggle with. That's probably not exactly it, but I said I probably could hold on to that for weeks and show other clients. B and C were talking, and this is what happened and he said that, and that was such a good stretch for him to think about what it was for him. Then his wife could potentially hear better. 

I think one of the small principles is when we're saying what we think, what we feel, and what we believe, not only are we using I statements. I'm sure that everybody talks about that, I feel, and then if you actually give a feeling, that's good. But I think it goes even deeper. You laugh because people say, I feel like you don't understand me. No, that's not a feeling.

Sorry, you were in midstream there. 

No, we were on the same page. So can we talk about what we like, what we think, what we feel and believe? Can we do that with love? I think one of the things I'm really trying to embody is, we can really be loving and not like it, we can be loving and have strong boundaries. So I could say to my partner, and my partner is more avoidant than ever, so I would never get this, by the way. But if somebody was like me and getting riled up, I could say to me: Jessica, I love you, and I can't talk while we're in this kind of state. So I'm going to walk away. But if you want to talk, and we can do it calm, I'll be here. So having a boundary that's loving, but also says what I'm thinking and feeling.

Absolutely, that is not easy to strike for many. I also have a client who has really struggled in this, in his relationship and his marriage, and also has an avoidant significant other. The significant other is a firm believer that we're not friends when we're in conflict, like you are not my ally. He's like, I need to feel that there's some good will, even if we're having a disagreement. That's just something that hasn't been her experience at all. So it is tricky sometimes to really have that reassurance or have that acknowledgement of the connection, even in the midst of conflict, and that's not easy to do. But for the one that, I will say, has more anxious tendencies. My significant other definitely has more avoidant tendencies, and we really worked on it, but I know that to have some sense. 

Oh gosh, Jessica, this was years and years ago. I remember being in a conflict, and my felt sense was like, I have no idea if we're going to resolve this, if he wants to resolve this. I mean, it was a little irrational, because I know how committed we are. But in the felt sense of it, I just didn't have orientation that we want to work on this, even though we may not be able to forge ahead and continue to work on this in the moment. Because sometimes he would get a little quiet and shut down, and I was like, can you just remind me that you want to resolve this? That's all I needed to hear. He was like, of course, and I was like, okay. It could just settle.

Even if it's years ago and you've done more work, that's so great to have the vulnerability almost, to ask for what you're looking for. It's still okay that he can have a little bit of a boundary or need time to resolve things. But you're able to say: Hey, can I get something from you? I love that.

To help me tolerate the difficulty of being in this messiness or the separation or disconnection, for however long. Just being able to tolerate that was really helpful to just know that we were going to come back to it. I know this is a common recommendation, that if you're going to take a pause, to say: Okay, we'll revisit this, we will have a point in time. Or it's already decided, we'll come back in an hour.

I think that's really hard for a lot of couples to get to. I know I can speak for myself, that was very hard to get to, because it never feels like it's coming back. Often it's the person who wants to get away from the conflict that's going to initiate the unspoken timeout, and then the other person who is worked up and wanting to resolve, it feels like it's not going to end. So there is even a challenge if your partner would have not been able to give that to you, or would have even been in that place to say that. So that's really challenging. 

Well, there were years before that it looked very different. So I will say, many, many iterations. 

Okay, so we're talking about awareness and consciousness and kindness in the midst of conflict, and how to also be in a place of talking and sharing. Or even just acknowledging for self, what is it that I'm thinking here, where's my mind going, what are the stories I'm telling, what is it that I'm feeling? What's the felt sense—body, sensations, emotions? What are my, is it beliefs you were saying? 

Thoughts, feelings, beliefs, desires, all of those things. I think to bring it back to the focus, and I love that word too because it brings us back, you said the North Star in the beginning. 

So it is actually eliminating, temporarily, what I want, what I desire, feel, think, believe, and what my partner thinks, feels and believes, first to make a decision about that. 

One of my mentors, he interviewed a NASCAR racing driver. This guy was unstoppable. He shared this in a talk years ago, and it stuck in my mind. He said to this professional NASCAR driver, how are you so successful? He said, well, there's one tip that I have. He said, when you're in the midst of all of these cars diverging, trying to get to the lead, people wreck. He said, the reason I don't wreck my car is because I have a focal point. I'm looking out ahead, and when I look out ahead, my hands will automatically take the car where it needs to go. He eliminates, and then there's the people that would crash behind him. I love that image. So a relationship visionary is looking ahead. 

So if you think, we hear, typically, business visionaries. They're a person who, there's a current crisis, and they're thinking: Okay, how do we solve this crisis? They're creative in their approach, so they're not getting bogged down into what's already not working. They know what doesn't work, and they're trying new things. To progress in our relationship, as we were talking about both of our experiences in our relationships, we're trying to get to that next better version. So we're looking ahead with our steering wheel, and we're trying to take it to the next level. So a relationship visionary is really focused on the importance of the relationship, that is the primary. So then it means we decide from there that we're going to take turns to listen to each other. 

One of the things that I like to even practice, and it's very challenging for me, is to take turns to say, what do you think about that? So it would be, Jessica, what do you think about this situation? As I'm listening, I'm not telling you my thoughts on it. I'm not saying: Yes, that's good, that's bad. I'm just like, tell me more. So you say this and this and that. Then I ask, is there anything else you want to tell me? Can I now tell you what I think and feel about that topic? We've taken turns, and maybe that's step two, then. 

So step one is we've decided it's going to be what's best for us both. Step two is each taking turns, and then we can start to negotiate. So maybe mine is a 9.9, and yours is a 9.9 out of 10. Well, we're really in a log jam then, because what are we going to do? We'll get back to let's ask more questions. If you don't get that thing, what would happen for you, what would it be like? You tell me, and then I tell you. Now we have 9.91 and 9.90, and we can choose. Here's the even cool thing about that, I think there's beauty in this, is when you are explicit about those things, when you talk them out. 

Even if it's sadness for me, and my partner would be okay with me being sad. Now I'm not going to stomp around. I've made the decision; I've chosen to do that. So it's different.

So it sounds as though this is really actionable, that when you're referencing the relationship or the North Star, this isn't just a global. Or maybe it's both. It's the global, but then when there's a decision to be made, where there perhaps is differences of opinion, that that's revisited. That, as you mentioned in the analogy of a business crisis, that we have a thing that's a bit of a difference or a conflict here. Step one is, okay, we are in service of us and our goal here, and to really name. That is what you're saying, to be very explicit when there's a challenge.

I love that. I think of it as step one is in place. We could revisit, I think, as a reminder. I love that, I've not really thought about that. But the foundation, that when you're building something, I guess you should check the foundation before you put another level on. So maybe we do need to revisit, like, is the foundation proper?

Yes, I think it's great. I have a dear friend, if I can just say, and she's a genius at this, that whenever there's something we're planning together, she's like: Okay, let's talk about what we would love, and we really want to support each other, to have a good time. Really, to reinforce and to reiterate and just to put the focus on. If it's a vacation that's getting planned, or whatever the decision is, if it's the messiness of the kitchen, we both want to have an environment where we feel supported and feel what the intention is, and that supports us both. Is that helpful?

Yeah, I love revisiting that for each individual thing. I think this really could be that you do step one, two, and three every time. I love that. But I think of it more as a process. Like for another part of my life, if there's a place where I made a decision to do something, once I've made that decision, then I take action. So I think of step one as already a decision made. But I love going back and just checking out the foundation of that, like: Hey partner, we're going to talk about this. Especially if I'm going to lead. 

Here's one thing that I think is really important to help with people trying to improve their relationship, is sometimes you do have to be the leader. If you're the person who wants something different, then it's your problem. It's your problem to solve. I might even say, besides being a relationship visionary, I did a recording on this recently and have a YouTube video, and I was sharing these three, three major focuses of a relationship. I said at the middle of it though, it should've been the number one tip. So here's my number one tip for your episode here, because I think, in fact, this is even maybe more important than the relationship visionary.

I love that you have the 9.99 and this is 1.1. You have such nuances, and it's really helpful. Thank you, sorry. 

No, I want to build it up, because I want people to really pay attention that this is the most important thing, I think for me in my life. 

I can give lots of examples. I have one from yesterday, as a matter of fact. But owning the problem means, to give a simple example, if I'm very particular about where the mustard needs to go on the refrigerator door—I'm not, but if I were—that's my problem, and I need to own that. Instead of telling my partner they didn't do it correctly, or your kitchen example, what I would say is, I have a problem with having to have the mustard in this certain place. I'm not saying it's a wrong problem, it's just my problem. People have great problems, like I have a problem of needing things to be organized before I can do work. Sums up, that's great. It's their problem, not mine. I'm much more busy with other things. 

So going back to the number one thing that I want to come across is that whatever the issue is, if you can figure out what it is for you that's the problem. So I may have a problem, and have had a problem with intimacy in my relationship, my spouse is fine with the level of intimacy and feels like everything's okay. So then I'm having a problem with intimacy, and then I have to own it and figure out what is it that I can do about it? Sometimes, unfortunately, there's nothing. 

Is that making sense?

It makes a lot of sense. One of the things I'm thinking, as you're describing this, is that with the North Star, and perhaps the intention is that both of our experiences really matter, and that we want to make welcome when either one of us is having a concern or a problem. So it's revisited, it's known, it's agreed upon. And even still, it might be, for one, difficult to raise their hand and say: Hey, I have a thing. The vulnerability and the ownership that that requires that you're speaking to so, so clearly. Because it seems as though, and often, tendency for people is to survey, build the evidence, all the reasons and rational explanations of why they feel the way they feel and why it's important, almost in the effort to persuade or convince their person that this is legitimate. That's a lot of effort, and what gets caught up in that is sometimes the criticism defensiveness loop, or it really can take people on an exit ramp and really go back and forth around the reality of: Well, no, that's not right, I did take out the trash, or I did put the mustard back, or whatever the things are. When really, it's like, I have a thing. To your point earlier, when we can own that and be in a much more place of reveal around what I'm thinking, feeling, and believing about this, it's much more compelling for the person to respond on the receiving end to be interested to turn towards. Is that right?

Yeah, I think here's what else I'm thinking about. Because there's a careful line that we have to just be aware of. We can step over lines and we can do anything we want, there's always consequences, good and bad. I think what to be really mindful of is, if I have a problem, so I said there's only two things we have to do really effectively. One is to know myself and to know I have a problem, to figure out what's making me uncomfortable. I'm uncomfortable because I like a lot more conversation than my spouse does. Maybe that's an example, it's one we hear a lot. So I have the problem of needing more conversation, or wanting it I should say, because I don't like the word need so much. But then the other piece to be really mindful of is the second part, the curiosity of what my partner is experiencing. 

So I'll try to explain it, even though I don't have a whiteboard in front of me. If you think of a y-axis, there would be the other person, and then if you draw an x-axis, it would be me or self. These two axis, and I'm going to fill in four quadrants. So you may have to close your eyes to think about this. But on the bottom line, there's the self. So maybe it goes from a zero to 10 scale. How well do I know what I think, feel, or believe, or any of those things? On the bottom-right-hand side, there's this box of feeling forgotten. That's like the mustard on the door shelf. I'm very clear about that, and I feel forgotten when my partner doesn't do it. The problem is, if I'm in that bottom quadrant, that means I have a very low level of other awareness. Like, what does my partner think, feel, believe, value about the same problem? In the box on the top-left. So if you, again, close your eyes and imagine these four boxes, the one on the top-left is the person who is only aware of making everybody else happy, and they sacrifice themselves sometimes. That person can lose themselves. So they may put mustard in the door, and they don't want to. It's so challenging and hard for them to do, maybe that's an extreme. I want it to be extreme I guess, so it makes the point. And I'll just give a voice to the bottom-left-hand, which would just be, I'm not in check with myself or the other person. It's sort of a disconnect. 

This maybe is the thing that listeners could want a copy of, I'll give a reference to this that maybe I'll put on my site. The place we're looking for in the top-right-hand corner would be that both of those two very, very important things are met. One, I know what I think, and I also know what my partner thinks, and we've solved it. The box on that top-right-hand side is intimacy, connection, and resolving of things. So why I had to draw that out all in your mind is because if we state we have a problem, I said I wrote about this in my book, so we talked about this earlier that I try to be transparent. I would go on these vacations that were wonderful with my spouse, but we would be driving for hours, and I would be getting upset because why aren't we having conversation? I have a problem with needing conversation, my spouse is happily listening to music and fine. So what I had to eventually understand about that other axis is, my spouse isn't thinking anything, doesn't have anything to say. I'm the one who has the problem. So the way we resolve that eventually was I own the problem, and then I say: Hey, can we talk? Then my spouse says, what do you want to talk about? How about that, how upsetting is that for a person like me? Very. Well, it's my problem, so I have to think of the conversation topic too. So I think that it's not balance even, it's just having both things be present. 

Well, this is really helpful. I am sure people would appreciate the visual, so I'll make sure to link that. As you're laying this out, that there are ways to uncover with the curiosity or even the questions. As you were describing of step one, having this North Star, this vision, and then being able to understand that we might have a different experience around this, or it might mean different things to us, or we might have different attachments to the thing we're voting for. Sometimes we get stuck there. So if we can really look at, okay, that's not going to necessarily give us a good decision-making avenue here. So if we can slow down, maybe I don't even know why it means so much to me. If I were to get what I wanted, what that would mean to me. Or if I didn't get it, what it would mean, and vice versa. Understanding that maybe I'm assuming, just because you're seemingly happy with the music on and not talking. But maybe you do have things you want to talk about that you haven't broached. So it's kind of understanding so we can really get into that place of knowing other, knowing self, vice versa, and hopefully having that dialog that you were describing, of both the kindness to be able to speak from a real ownership and vulnerable place, and also to be really allowing the other to have the space and to be taking turns there. Is that right?

Yeah, I think that you're explaining it really well. One thing that I think, for me, that was and can be dangerous for people is like, now I have this roadmap. Well, if you have ever gone on a road trip, sometimes there's a bridge that's out, sometimes there is a detour. So what I need to keep in mind often is, I can get into: Well, this is how it should be. I have clients, and I've had people come back and say, they're not doing it right. They are doing it right. Maybe it is the person who's saying and they're not doing it right who isn't getting it. There's a detour, meaning we have to check in with the axis that says other, like what is going on. That doesn't always mean talking about it. Because if you have a partner who doesn't want to talk, sometimes we have to respect that. Like, I'm not hungry right now, it's the same thing. We don't get upset when our partner doesn't want to eat, unless it's like they haven't eaten and they're going to die. 

Well, yeah. I'm just feeling here that some of my real helpful learning moments have been in relationship where I would have done something entirely different, and depending on the dynamic, I slowed down enough or we were in conflict enough that I couldn't get the thing I was wanting, whatever it was. That I had an opportunity to really contemplate, get curious, understand what's the value of the way that my significant other is approaching this. I was like: Oh, I would have never done it like that, or I would have never gotten to that place, had I not had someone pushing back or holding space for their approach. There's so much learning. I think the thing I'm feeling here too is that we're not in relationship to be with ourselves, that would be kind of same-same. So as we were speaking about the two people and their individual selves, the diversity there, that it typically is a healthier system when both people can be expressed, and there can be an opportunity to have the welcoming safety to be able to tolerate those differences, to then be able to unpack. I think people shortchange this, they want to get to the relief of the decision and compromise or give over or whatever it is to get to that result, when there's so much to be learned in the process.

Yes, I'm not a person who's goes to the church and says amen. But I would say, amen to that. 

We could probably do a different show about how do we get our partner to be curious about us? Because that is something that that I'm very familiar with. How do you get your partner to ask questions? I mean, I could give a quick one, but I think that the journey is of learning more about each other keeps it from being stale. What do you think about this today? 

Yes. Well, I know we have just a few more minutes here. Would you like to say more about how people can get clear on their North Star, or how to be in service of their vision as a couple? I can recognize there's so many values that people might have. How do you make this more concrete for people?

Yeah, well, I would say, because I've heard you talk, I think, about the mission statement. I actually would say that this visionary concept isn't necessarily about a specific issue, this is more of a decision that in your relationship, that your purpose is making the relationship the highest of value. That I'm going to do my best to make sure that my priority isn't me or isn't my partner. Because I've been in both ways. I've been like, my partner needs space and then. But then I'm not there, I'm not getting what I'm looking for. So the real first decision is, do you want to create a North Star, a focal point that is about that? Because then everything else can be decided from that, and then we can go through those steps. I love it, I'm going to add this to it. Jessica, this is brilliant. I'm going to go back and check the foundation and say to my spouse: Hey, remember, or at least I'm going to because I can only control myself, I'm going to make sure that in this conversation I do my best, and maybe I can even model it. I'm going to do my best to make sure I listen to you and hear what you have to say. Hey, after you're done, is it okay, would you be willing to listen? Here's the other piece, maybe ask me questions. Can you ask me one or two questions when we're done? That's one way to get curiosity from a spouse, to give them that request. So again, the first step, the goal of being a visionary. The second is to take turns. The third then is to make that negotiation or decision.

Yes, which the decision is in service of that higher intention.

Yes. I may not get what I set out to get, that might be tough.

Yes. Well, I realize I wanted people to know a little bit about you, and we just dove right in. Is there anything you want to say about you and how you got so passionate about helping people in relationship?

Yeah, well, they say that your mess becomes your message. So I think that's the piece, and we talked before this interview about it. I wrote the book, [What to Do When You Do Give a F*ck]. Because I gave too many fucks about the wrong thing, and not the foundation, the visionary. So when I made the decision to become a relationship visionary, my relationship started to change. So in a nutshell, that's my story. I'm really obsessed with figuring out, well, maybe how do we enjoy the journey is probably where I aspire to be, but where I really want to get to is the pinnacle. So I have to be mindful. So I think the takeaway is, do you want to become a relationship visionary? I'm on a mission to create a bunch of relationship visionaries.

Beautiful! Well, how do people get in touch with what you're sharing and teaching and offering?

So I see a limited number of couples in-person and virtually, and then I have a larger program for individuals who want to improve their relationship and learn the principles we're talking about. That's Couples Speak. I'll put that freebie of the quadrants on there, so they can pop on and get that at Couples Speak. My book is available there. If you get the book, you can get some freebies and stuff. But I have free resources, and they can probably find me there, link to social media and all of those things.

Excellent. So Couples Speak, and there you can find the quadrant that you were just referring to, also a link to that website on today's show notes, and you're saying social media is there. Then, how to engage in a program if people want to develop more of these relationship skills. Is that right? 

Yeah, Couples Speak has the links to social media and all of those things, of course we can give them those handles.

Yes, I'll make sure to put that on the show notes today. 

Like I said, I'm obsessed with figuring out how to improve relationships and how to encourage this idea of relationship visionaries. So I have a lot of free resources too, and they can get those at various places. But the website is probably a good place to start. 

Wonderful! Well, I'll make sure to put all that on today's show notes. Thank you so much for everything you've shared and the wealth of knowledge. I like how you're really making this in a form that people can practice, like it's a step process, or it's a quadrant, or it's a measurement. I think being able to quantify really helps people orient a little bit.

Well, thank you for helping me to realize that maybe we need to revisit that decision when we're going through that process, I love that. I think one of the things people really do get from you, and I love it, is the embodiment. There's a lot to the intellect. Great, you can understand these. But the way to change is to put it into your feet and put it into your body. I love that you talk about that, that the way through is going through it, actually doing it. So we could talk about all these great things, but you have to put them into practice and put them into your feet.

Yes, wonderful. 

Thank you so much!

Yeah, it's been an honor and a privilege. Thank you. 

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