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Relationships are complex and often fraught with misunderstandings, conflicts, and a sense of disconnection. The journey to nurturing deep, meaningful connections can feel overwhelming, especially when traditional advice falls short. How can we cultivate intimacy and trust in our relationships? What if the answer lies not just in psychology but also in the intriguing world of quantum physics? Imagine approaching your relationships with the same awe, curiosity, and flexibility physicists use to understand the universe.

In this episode, we dive into the fascinating interplay between quantum physics and relational skills, offering fresh perspectives that challenge conventional thinking. The discussion explores the delicate art of deep listening, the transformative power of acceptance, and the importance of vulnerability. Learn about the stages of cultivating intimacy and the skills needed at each phase. We also touch on the importance of humility, adaptability, and approaching conflicts with a soft startup rather than with a harsh startup. By integrating these principles, you'll discover new ways to strengthen your connections and pave the path to more fulfilling and resilient relationships.

Dr. McMillan is a clinical community psychologist who has 40+ years of experience providing people with tools and insights they can use in their personal relationships, communities, and society at large to heal divisions and find ways to work together. He developed and authored the Sense of Community Theory, the most influential research on the psychological sense of community. Dr. McMillan is also the author of several highly-rated books, including Create Your Own Love Story.

In this episode

6:41 Defining the social glue: Understanding sense of community theory.

9:22 The four elements of a sense of community and their parallel in relationships.

16:35 How principles from quantum physics can inform relationship dynamics.

26:47 How observation influences reality in relationships.

35:52 The transformative power of emotions: From fear and anger to healing and growth.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Create a safe space for your partner to share openly by actively listening without interrupting or judging.
• Approach conflicts and discussions with a confessional attitude, allowing yourself to be open and honest about your feelings.
• When addressing conflicts, begin the conversation gently and lovingly to foster a more receptive and constructive dialogue.
• When experiencing or witnessing anger, try to identify and express underlying sadness to open up problem-solving pathways.
• Maintain a mindset of gratitude and curiosity toward your partner, which can help in understanding and appreciating your differences.
• Establish shared rituals that acknowledge and honor emotions within the relationship, promoting connection and understanding.
• Embrace change and remain open to new experiences and perspectives, reflecting the ever-changing nature of reality and relationships.

Mentioned

Create Your Own Love Story: The Art of Lasting Relationships (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Relationship Map To Happy, Lasting Love

Connect with Dr. David McMillan

Website: drdavidmcmillan.com

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About Today's Show

David, thank you for joining us today.

Glad to be here.

Yeah. As I was just telling people a little bit about you in the intro, and you were just saying your claim to fame is what you've contributed in the field of research around Sense of Community theory. I'm curious if you're willing to share a little bit about what that is, for people who don't know.

Well, it's a feeling, it's a spirit, it's a way of imagining yourself connected to the world. You either have it or you don't. It's a little bit amorphous. My challenge, when I began thinking about this, was: Seymour Sarason, a famous psychologist, said, it's like love. You can't define it, but you know what it is, and everybody knows and experiences it. I said: Oh, I'll define it. So I decided I would, and I did. So I have. It's the same as love, the social glue, the things that connects people. There are certain things that you need to have there, for it to be a robust connection. They're the same whatever you call it, love or Sense of Community. 

I lived in a small town. In my small town, within two blocks, there were 30 cousins and aunts and uncles. It was a great place to grow up. So I tried to describe what that was, what those elements were. I found four major elements, and they were replicated in the literature. Each element had six little sub-elements to it. I wrote an article. It's been referenced over maybe 10-15,000 times. It's something. That article has really done well. It's read 50,000 times a year by people interested in the idea. I'm real proud of that.

Wonderful. Is this a research journal article, or is this an article online? 

It's in the Journal of Community Psychology. It's an academic journal. I'm very well-known in circles of 100 people. 100 academics really know my theory. 

Well, it's a pleasure to hear you speak on it. For one listening that wants to read it, do they need to go to their public library? How would one be able to read this? 

Oh, they can just go to my website. It's on my website.

Okay, I'll make sure to find that link, so it's on today's show notes for people to easily access. Do you want to name? I know there's the sub-topics or categories under each four. Do you want to name the four, would that be helpful?

Yeah, I can name the four elements, sure. Membership is the first idea, which really is spirit or the sense of belonging. That's the first element. Then the second element has to do with power or influence. Whereas the first element has to do with spirituality of an ephemeral thing, the second is really the religion, basically, in the culture, in your community. The second element is the government—how power is allocated. Always, there's a way that power is allocated. The third has to do with what I call reinforcement or integration of needs, which is another word for social trades. Everybody is trading in relationships, and that's the economy. Every relationship, every community has an economy. Then the fourth has to do with art. I call it shared connection in time and space. It's really the history, the story of a community, how it's told and how it's symbolized, and what its traditions are and rituals. Every couple, every relationship, has those too, and how the story is told is very important.

Thank you. You were saying this could be applied to love as well, the four elements. It sounds as though I could do my best guess at it, but I would love to have you if you want to translate that for us. 

Well, you know you have to belong to say that there's love there. You have to feel like there's a seat at the table, that you're welcome. The boundaries need to be in place to say this is where you belong. There needs to be a place for secrets and privacy and intimacy to grow and incubate. That's what the boundaries are for. 

Then the second element I would call trust, which is about how influence is shared or not—whether or not the energy flows easily, or whether fear is involved and you clutch up and then there's no flow of energy anymore. Trust is essential to the building of the wealth of emotional capital that you have between each other. The more you trust, the bigger it is, and the more you cannot trust, the smaller it is. So that's the government or the power. Then you have to trade. I mean, it's a business. 

That's the real exciting part, the part I like best.

The fourth one is the story. It's the story. Every relationship has a story, and how you tell the story says a lot about the health and quality of a relationship. So if you tell a humiliating story about your partner, it's not going to be so good, and it's not going to go well, and it's going to be hard for that relationship to last. But if you honor, tell a story that honors your relationship and honors each other, and you build symbols and collect things that say: This is who we are, and this represents us, that becomes really special.

Great, wow! There's just so much in what you're saying. I imagine we could focus the whole episode on this, I bet we could. Well, it's interesting, I just interviewed a person, and she's in London, and she was talking about how often in fear, we constrict. When you're talking about the number two for love, that when we do want to control or have things a particular way, that we can really restrict the flow of abundance, or flow of energy, or the wealth that can get generated through what can be expressed if we're in more of, she would use the word acceptance or allowing space. But I can see how that's really symbolic of, as you're describing any power, that if it's really controlling or authoritarian or dogmatic, that doesn't usually allow people to be creative or generate new ideas and flourish. So I can see how.

Well, that's why economies in democracy do well, because there's freedom and we have a system that we trust, or we once had a system we trust. So the more we have trust in our nation, in our society, the more wealth we build. The more fear we have, the more we have a depression, which shuts down. Think about how wealth expanded. What is a dollar bill? It's a piece of paper. Really, it's about trust. We believe something about this piece of paper, and it's in our belief and our trust that you're going to believe that too that makes that piece of paper valuable. But it's really just a piece of paper. 

Yes, and it sounds like there's perhaps overlap of these four elements. Because as you're speaking of trust, what I also was hearing you speak to is the third element, that if we're in a place of what can I contribute, do I allow my partner's perspective, or what they have to offer to be influenced by them in the exchange and the interaction. That there's a good will or there's a regard, that there's trust that gets built from that.

Yeah, that's right! When you give somebody something and they value it, and you begin to be able to depend on it, that reinforces that second element. And the trust reinforces the economic, the third element. So they're all related. The story you tell builds more trust and creates a stronger boundary and a bond.

Nice, wonderful. Well, one of the topics we had for today's conversation is looking at what quantum physics has to do with relationship. I'm so curious what you are thinking here, or what you have to say. 

Well, Margaret Mead and Gregory Bateson came together around the notion that there are natural laws in the universe. For them, one of those laws was homeostasis, and they built family therapy around that idea of homeostasis and balance and stuff. Well, family therapy lost its cache or excitement. It was once the big thing in the field, but now it's not so much, because that law just wasn't working completely. But I think they were right. I think there are some natural laws that we can find in science that apply to humans. 

So I came up with 10 or 12, adding to homeostasis, and with that, that then gives you, as a therapist, the right to have something to offer a client, other than just an ear. You can take these natural laws. So two of them come from quantum physics. One is the law of relativity, which tells us that it depends on your perspective. So if you want to be in a relationship and you want to be right, well I don't think that's going to work. So you need to bring humility to a relationship, and tolerance and openness. Then there's the law of probabilities, which is, nothing is ever true all the time—every rule has an exception. So once more, that reinforces humility, which says certainty is not possible. If you want certainty, you can't be human. It can't be in life. It doesn't happen, we can't know. Nobody can tell the future. 

There's what's called the cybernetic feedback loop, which really means that all living creatures have the ability to take lemons and make lemonade. We're all looking for what can we do with reality now? So that openness is part of the natural existence of the universe. It's just a natural law. If we want to be with somebody to partner with them, and build something together beyond ourselves, we have to respect the other person, and not take ourselves so seriously and not be right, and avoid certainty, and be sure that you don't think you know. Because when you think you know, that's the end. What do you want anybody else for? You don't need anybody, you know. So humility is essential, and that comes out of those two quantum physics laws.

Thank you. One of the things that I'm really getting from what you're describing is that if we can approach life and relationship with this humility and with a sense of possibility, then we are more open and in a creative place. Versus it has to be a particular way, and that we've already decided that we're right, or it's certain. You're saying that isn't true in the realm of all possibilities, and we're going to really set us up for not being in the flow of living and evolving. We're going to be just really working super hard to keep things in a static place, which is going against the laws of nature, if I'm hearing you.

The universe is expanding. I'm sorry, it's not going to be the way it was just a minute ago. It's always going to be changing, and we've got to always be dancing with reality that is, not what we want. Another quantum physics law is the law of approach, which is, if you're splitting an atom and you come at the atom straight down, perpendicular 90 degrees, it's going to have a different blast than if you come at it at any other angle. So if you come at it at a more gradual angle, it's going to have a different effect. So the outcome has everything to do with the approach. So the form, the way you speak, your tone of voice, your ability to bring your openness and your willingness to listen to them, all of that is part of your approach. How a person feels welcome is all part of your approach. That matters, and that's a law of quantum physics. You can see it at the Super Collider where they split atoms.

Yes, and that echoes some of the research that comes out of the Gottman Institute's research around soft startup versus harsh startup, and that when we can approach someone when there's conflict or we have a challenge or an issue, that startup is very important for how constructive that conversation will be.

Yeah, I use the term confessional communication. So what that is, is when you approach somebody that you would really like to change, like, I'd really like my wife to not be late. I really would like that. That would be really important, because if you're trained to be a therapist, all we've got to do is be on time. That's it, show up on time. That's all you've got to do. But that's really important. So that's become important to me, but it's not so much to her. She sort of likes Carl, and she'd be happy with a late entrance. That works for her. So this is a conflict. 

So if I approach her and say: Damn it, you're late, and you're wrong and I'm right! I've tried that approach, by the way, and it didn't work, and nothing happened any differently. So I could try a different approach, which is a confessional approach, which is, I look at this problem and I see I have a part of this problem. It's my impatience, it's my rigidity, it's my demand that I have what I want when I want it. That's just my intolerance, that's me. So I come to her and confess: Marietta, this is my fault, my problem, not a problem for you, you're fine with this. I get it that it's me being uptight about this. But I am uptight about this. So when we go someplace and we're late, I'm driving too fast. You're mad at me for driving too fast. I'm mad at you for being late. We get there, and the whole evening is spoiled. So it really would help if you could help me out here. Because I know it's my fault, I know it's my problem. But I can't seem to shake it, and I need some help. Well, she's likely to be a little more sympathetic to that, understanding that I'm nuts and me claiming I'm nuts, and she'd be right, I am nuts. Maybe she'll help me out with that and be compassionate. That's going to work a whole lot better than if I demand I'm right and she's wrong

Yes, and it allows her to see why it matters to you, why there's tenderness or fear or vulnerability around it, and that's what she cares about. She doesn't really care about whose strategy or whose approach is right. That can get people into endless debates that don't result in anything.

If I lead with my vulnerability instead of my righteousness, that might work better.

No kidding! Well, David, as we were talking and approaching the conversation around quantum physics and what that has to do with relationship, I remember this was probably 2004, I had been exposed to something quantum physics related. I cannot recall what it was. I can tell you what the essence of it was, and I'm sure you're familiar. But something had to do with the study or the experiment about it being observed.

That's the law of relativity. The question is, is it a wave? Is energy a wave, or is it a particle? If you set up the experiment to see if you can find a wave, you'll find a wave. If you set up the experiment to look for a particle, you'll find a particle. It depends on how you set up the experiment, the position from which you observe. So if you observe this from this point of view, you're going to see one thing than if you observe it from another point of view. So everything is relative, that's how the law of relativity came.

Okay, thank you for explaining that. I think I had thought at that moment, or when I was coming across what I was hearing or seeing, that just the act of it being observed changed. But it sounds like the place of which it's observed, or how the experiment was set up, changes.

There is an idea. This is the cat in the box idea, and there is a whole big theory about this, that observation changes reality. The science behind this is not tight, so there's a lot of controversy about this. I'm an ecological psychologist, as addition to a clinical psychologist and a community psychologist. As an ecological psychologist, sometimes you follow people around and see what they're doing in their day, to see how their life settings interact with their behavior. So there was this argument about this very thing, that when you set yourself up to observe somebody, that changes their behavior. Well, ecological psychologists observe that that's true for about 30 minutes. But after you become part of the scene, sitting there with your camera, or with your notepad, or whatever it is you got, becomes part of the scene and you disappear, and it doesn't seem that you're making much of an impact, and that it appears that they're maintaining what they are, because you've become the wall. So that debate is still ongoing. 

Well, as I was thinking about preparing for this interview, and I was just knowing reference of what I was just saying, I was like: Oh, that's interesting. As we're talking, the law of relativity makes a lot of sense relationally, that if we are approaching a listening stance with an idea or a frame on it, that we're going to hear and be looking for, or how we're listening might be different, or how we might hear it might be different. Versus if we have a different perspective, and we're listening from that other perspective where we have a total curious, open-minded, like: I have no idea what you're going to say, and I'm just listening, and I'm going to be super receptive. I could see how that will impact the exchange for the person speaking.

What you're describing now is called confirmation bias. You bring an idea to the table looking for it, you're going to find data among all the things you're seeing that confirm what you already thought. That's an aspect of the law of relativity. But in the law of relativity, in the physics version, the objective data that falls as data on a screen and creates data points and numbers, those prove that there's a particle there, when that's what you set up the experiment to look for. It does prove that. It really does, there's no question about it that data shows that's a particle. It's not in the person, it's shows up on the screen in the data, and you count the numbers, and it shows up, it becomes a wave. So what is matter, what is energy? Is it a particle? Or is it wave? Or is it both and? Really, it's both and. It's always both, and it can be. It gives you so many different ways to go with something, which is the point of queer theory, which is that anytime you're stuck in a binary and either/or, you are confined. When really, identity and range of being is so much more complex than that, and we don't have to be confined by just two categories. It's both and.

Well, I would love if you can help people or help me translate to what this looks like in an interaction of law of relativity, or just some of this quantum physics in relational exchange. Because the other thing I remember coming across, this was so long ago, but it was someone who, I think she was an author, and she was describing, if I imagine a dyad, I have two people talking—one is the speaker, and one is the listener. That if the listener is listening deeply, isn't listening to speak, is just listening and holding that presence, the person that's speaking perhaps will go way deeper, say things they hadn't intended to say, and there will be this space of sharing that wouldn't have been shared if that person wasn't holding that space and listening so openly and deeply, that likely that wouldn't have occurred. I don't know if that made sense.

Well, you're describing the stance of a therapist, as you know well. That's what you bring to the table, is you bring an empty space that they fill up, and you don't mess with it. You let them fill you up, and you learn from what they teach you, what they mean to say and what they're feeling, and then you give it back to them. When they hear their own words and their own emotions coming back to them, it's such a gift to us, whoever does that for us, whoever listens with that kind of curiosity and capacity to tell us we're not crazy. Oh, we're not crazy! Wow, because I think I am. I've always thought I was, and I'm not sure really. So I hear this person telling me that I'm making sense, and that they're helping me make sense of myself, that's such a gift. That's such a great gift. 

Yes, that's rare, and it's hard for anybody to do that. Because we all have our own agendas and they get in the way, and confirmation bias exists, and to listen to somebody without that bias and without an agenda, and just to be curious and open and still, and then give them back themselves in beautiful metaphors, which say, I think I get it. Is this what it is? Is this what it's like for you? Is this picture I'm drawing was you talking? Does this make sense? They go: Oh my God, it makes so much sense, I hadn't thought of that. You took their words and you gave them a little bit of a spin, and now they're going to take your words and that spin, and then they're going to go deeper. Then they're going to discover a layer that they didn't know existed before, because you gave them this little spin that acted like the drill, that opened them up a little more and a little more and a little more. It's magical.

Yes, and I agree here. Just the acceptance that that provides, you mentioned acceptance earlier, not trying to change, or that there's many dimensions or complexities to one's experience, and to feel that being held and being reflected back and acknowledged. It's quite special and quite healing at times.

Oh, it is very healing. 

Okay. Is there anything else you wanted to say about quantum physics and what we might learn, and how we might be able to keep that in mind as we approach our interactions in intimate relationship?

The main point of quantum physics is humility, is not being certain and remaining curious always. Curiosity is such a wonderful, wonderful asset for relationships. Knowing is killing. When you know, things are dead. 

Wow, that seems so potent, how you just described. Being certain is killing and ending, and curiosity is life-giving and allows for more to occur.

Thank you, yeah.

Yeah, I feel like I could just marinate on that for a little bit. So thank you for that. That's really beautiful. Now, I know the other thing you possibly wanted to talk about with us here today is the emotion. I don't know if it's emotion rituals, and how anger. I can recognize that, as we're saying, when one might feel fear, the tendency to want to control or to have things organized, maybe even certain. The unknown can be scary at times, because there's a whole range of possibilities. I mean, my loved one, it's possible—like, knock on wood, like nothing tragic would happen to him—but it's not guaranteed that I will be alive tomorrow or he'll be alive tomorrow. That's scary to think about.

That's true. 

But because you are concerned that your mate will be alive tomorrow, the fact when you see him, oh, I'm so grateful. He's here. He's here, we're together, oh yes! That piece, our vulnerable emotions, which we reject so much, are really are our most valuable emotions. Fear is one that I never tolerated in myself. Sadness is weak, and I never let that happen either. So I wrote a book about emotion rituals, that's the title of the book. I wrote it because my wife, who was a retired judge, she was a judge at the time, and she was trying to find a batterer program that worked. Because most batterer program didn't, and they still don't. They're pretty bad programs. 

There's this guy named Steven Stosny who had a one that worked, and it was fantastic. It was in DC. It was based on this one little idea, and that is that lectures, ideas do not change behavior or stop anger. That only thing that stops anger is another emotion. So when you have anger neuro-hormones racing through your body, the only thing that's going to stop those neuro-hormones is the neuro-hormones of another emotion coming in and diluting those neuro-hormones. The emotion that dilutes anger best is sadness. So you can't be sad and angry at the same time. 

So Stosny created this really neat little ritual in which you go below the anger, and always below the anger is hurt, sadness, threat and fear, always that's there, tears. Anger just covers that up and gives you certainty and control, and right and wrong, and binary thinking, either/or, friend/enemy. That's what anger does. That closes the brain to the mammalian brain, which is as big as your fist. It's the size of a dog's brain. Sadness opens the whole brain. So you've got your neocortex. Two-thirds more of the brain is present when you're sad, and it takes away your energy. You don't have much vitality, but your brain works. So when you go below the anger to sadness, the anger disappears, and you now can think, and you're now not stupid, and you're now not a five-year-old, and you can solve problems, and that works. Well, that's such a cool idea. 

So I took all the nine emotions that I count, and I showed what its resolve is. So each emotion has a different resolve. So shame, which is one of our best emotions, because without shame, we don't get better, without shame we don't love anybody. Love only means something if it means that when we hurt somebody we love, we feel bad about it. So shame is the essence of honor, that's what resolves shame, is the pride or the joy that comes when I have the courage to step up and say that was my fault. When I can do that and like myself, that makes shame into wisdom and learning and growth and transforms us. How cool is that? 

So every emotion has a problem, an asset and a liability, and we can get stuck in any of these emotions. Depression, for example, we can get stuck in depression, or sadness. 

The way out of depression is to find an emotion that has energy. There are two emotions that have energy. One is want or desire. If you just give your brain a little bit of the want chemical, it can be ice cream. Okay, I want ice cream. So then you begin to imagine that you can have ice cream. Then you go: Oh, I can't have ice cream because it will make me fat, I won't do that. So then you figure out a way that you can have the taste of ice cream and listen to your fear and have a plan so that you don't get too much ice cream. So you turn want on. 

Then the second thing you turn on is anger. Now, anger is a very dangerous emotion, I don't recommend taking it seriously. But think of somebody that you really, really, really, really don't like, and if you were in a cartoon, you would like to beat them up like a Dick Tracy cartoon, pluck their eyes out and do whatever it is. You go in that rage moment where you are playing, and you feel that energy coming, and then you put that want together with that temporary anger, and it becomes determination. Boom, you go out and you get what you want!

I'll show you.

Then you're out of depression. Every emotional knot has an outlet like that.

Thank you so much. When you began speaking, there are some people that really struggle, and for good reason, with this idea of replacing. If you had said gratitude for anger, I'm like, that's a big reach for many. It also runs the risk of bypassing, because there's a legitimate injustice or violation, or like you said, some type of injury. So to bypass that and just go to gratitude, that's not actually necessarily helping.

Or to go from anger to shame, that just is a circle. Because shame is so toxic, you'll just come back to blaming somebody and be angry again, to protect yourself from the toxicity of shame. So shame doesn't work either. 

When you spoke about the hurt or the sadness that accesses the deeper layer, and I agree with you, anger is a secondary emotion often. So for people to really look at and really be with that, that that might feel a hard thing to confront because of what might be there emotionally, and also what that asks of the brain, just energy-wise. And it's going to be so much more informative around what someone's experience is, or where the hurt is and what they need. I think that can be way more empowering to move forward a little bit more constructively, whether or not it's setting a limit or boundary, or how do I take care of myself, or what is it that I need? I also love, too, that you described anger can be fuel to really get us into action that can motivate us. That's how we're using it. 

You really understood that. That's exactly right, you said that well.

Because it's not so much to be destructive, but it's to recognize this matters. You said righteousness earlier, but there's a righteousness in occupying space or being in a place of discernment and willing to put energy towards that. So there's a little bit of a fight, but in a good way, channeling it in a good way for something that someone wants.

One of the emotions is disgust. I really don't like disgust, it's my least favorite. But it's the only place you're going to find morality. We should be disgusted at rape. We should be disgusted at cheating and lying and stealing. Those are appropriate places to be disgusted. That's right, that's where it needs to be. 

Thank you. So recognizing that we have the capacity, especially under certain circumstances, like stress, we tend to be aggressive and competitive and all the things. That we have all these tendencies within us as being human, and to really look at the behavior, and also calling into morality around the value and the character.

When you were talking about getting out of depression and turning anger into fuel and it becoming determination and some sort of righteousness, that little bit of disgust, anger at this thing, fighting this feeling right to do that, I don't like righteousness, but it does give you energy. It does give you energy and some confidence, it does do that.

Well, there's a clarity when we've really looked at and not just adopted a certain way of being, but we've really done a deeper dive around the behavior or the virtue of what we're wanting to embody. That we have that for good reason, then I think there's a little bit more clarity and congruency. I think righteousness has this tone of better than, as you were describing, and I don't love that either. So it's more of this clarity and this discernment and this conviction, maybe we will use conviction. Like, I will stand for this even when it's not convenient or it's hard. Or when this is happening, as you talked about ecological and the environment, that I will take action, I will say this isn't okay or something. 

I love all of this, this all really resonates. Even the shame.

You're saying it back to me so well, I feel heard.

Good, well, I genuinely am resonating. The honor that when we're feeling: Ah, that was a miss! Or feeling bad. As you're talking about human and belonging, that's critical to care for our people, our family, our community, and to really tap into the honor. Like, I want to honor you. When we can tap into that honor, then there's a little bit of—talk about the question mark—how do I honor, how do I repair, how is there restitution or reconciliation? That is the honor that can offer repair.

And you honored me by listening to me and telling me back what I'm saying. I feel honored by that exactly. This is good therapy, thank you.

Well, wonderful. I know we're winding down here, and you have your books. What would you like to encourage people who want to learn more from you? It sounds like you have your website or your article. I'll make sure to have the link to that. What do you want to encourage people to read or access?

Those laws I'm talking about, the natural laws, I'm writing a book about the natural laws. I'm going to use the rubric of alchemy as how I think we should approach people. Not as experts and not as somebody above anybody, but just another person who's messing with the various parts of life and trying to figure things out. Using these natural laws to see how they apply to my life and your life and everybody's life is not me being the expert on you. I don't like that role. I'd rather be the alchemist who's just like, if you need a wizard, I'll be a wizard. I'll make lead into gold, and we'll laugh, pretending that it really is gold. But the job, for somebody who is trying to be a resource to another person who's in pain, is to transfer that pain, that feces into fertilizer, to make pain into wisdom, and tragedy into sagacity. That's what you want to help people with.

Yes, it's transformative. It's a transformation. It's so interesting. I was going to use the word alchemy earlier, when we were talking about that deep listening, and we were talking about how special. I wanted to say it's like alchemy, but it's a science term that I was like, I don't know if that's actually accurate. So I'm glad.

It's a miracle. Alchemists should be meta communicators. People who help people label and understand themselves, and then rise above themselves to see themselves and go: Oh, that's me! Then they have a perspective they didn't have before. That's alchemy. All of a sudden, they're different. Wow, that's exciting!

And the Emotion Rituals allow people some guidance in this alchemy, wonderful. So you're writing that book, and you want people to stay tuned for that. How do people connect with you? How do people look for your work? Is that just being on your website? Do you have an email?

It's on my website now. I'm thinking about building a bot with all these ideas in the bot. But that's a ways away, that's down the road.

Maybe, maybe not. I don't know. That's interesting. Thank you. Thank you for all that you've shared with us. I can feel myself energized by all your teaching here. So thank you.

Thank you. Well, glad to do it.

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