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Is your relationship running on autopilot, devoid of the meaningful conversations that foster growth and intimacy? Relationships often suffer when we avoid crucial conversations that could foster deeper connections and understanding. The problem is not the lack of desire but rather the missing know-how to navigate these uncharted waters effectively. Imagine a world where curiosity, vulnerability, and intentionality are the cornerstones of your relationship, transforming mundane interactions into meaningful, intimate moments.

In this episode, we dive deep into the often-overlooked conversations that can create positive change in relationships. Learn about practical exercises designed to enhance intimacy, tools to build curiosity and engagement, and the importance of creating rituals within daily routines. From mindfulness exercises to reframing thoughts and leveraging curiosity, this discussion illuminates the pathway to a more connected and fulfilling relationship. The goal is to provide you with actionable insights and strategies that can immediately impact how you relate to your partner, helping to turn those awkward silences into moments of genuine connection.

Zach Brittle is a Licensed Mental Health Counselor, Certified Gottman Therapist, and Certified Relational Life Therapist. He is also the author of The Relationship Alphabet and the Marriage Therapy Journal.

Laura Heck is a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, Certified Gottman Therapist, and Sex Therapist in private practice working exclusively with couples to manage conflict and deepen intimacy and pleasure.

Zach and Laura are the co-hosts of the podcast Marriage Therapy Radio where they bring wit and wisdom while tackling the most common complaints every relationship experiences.

In this episode

6:15 How this dynamic duo brings humor and expertise to relationship advice.

12:04 How actively engaging in the process leads to real relationship growth.

21:02 How curiosity can transform relationships and deepen connection.

26:47 Exercises for cultivating vulnerability and emotional intimacy in relationships.

32:38 Building lasting connection through rituals and intentional practices in relationships.

45:37 Aligning values with intentional practices for a more fulfilling relationship.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Take time to journal or meditate on how societal gender norms have shaped your behaviors and expectations in relationships.
• Identify activities or practices that reconnect you with both your feminine and masculine energies.
• Spend time in nature, establishing rituals like grounding exercises or mindful walks to rediscover innate wisdom and balance.
• Explore Jungian principles or depth psychology concepts to deepen your understanding of the soul's role in relationships.
• Develop skills to hold space for your partner's emotions, acknowledging their fears and pain points without attempting to fix them immediately.
• Set up a daily or weekly routine that includes both productivity-oriented (masculine) and relaxation/nurturing (feminine) activities.
• Make conscious choices about your relational behaviors, aiming for authentic interactions rather than defaulting to gender-conditioned responses.

Mentioned

Reconnect: A Marriage Counseling Workbook (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Atomic Habits (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Smart Couples Finish Rich (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

ERP 420: The Importance of “Turning Towards” in Relationship — An Interview with Laura Heck

ERP 396: How to Recognize Unhelpful & Misguided Relationship Advice — An Interview with Zach Brittle

ERP 216: What to Know about Loneliness and Relationship

ERP 110: How To Manage Two Majorly Conflicting Needs In Relationship

Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication

Connect with Zach Brittle & Laura Heck

Websites: marriagetherapyradio.com

Facebook: facebook.com/marriagetherapyradio

X: twitter.com/forbetter_us

Instagram: instagram.com/marriagetherapyradio

Podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/marriage-therapy-radio/id1295458667

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About Today's Show

 Laura and Zach, thank you for being here. It's always fun to chat with you. You both have been on the show individually, and here we are together as a group having a joint conversation. I know you just published and are publishing a book upcoming, super excited to talk about that. 

Just would love to check in with you both around anything you want people to know, maybe about you, where you're coming from, or in this particular moment, just as we're going to be talking about communication and the relational skill-building workbook that you both just did.

Well, maybe we should mention, we've been on individually, and now we're on together. We're business partners. We're not life partners. I mean, we've been together for a long time.

We're married, but not to each other. That's what we like to say. 

Exactly. So we have our podcast together, and we are colleagues, and I think that we're good puzzle pieces that fit together professionally. So I just want to put that out there. 

Yes, it's helpful. Because people might assume, and it's common when two people are working together.

We are friends and colleagues. We've been friends, I don't know what, 10 to 12 years. We've been doing our podcast, which is called Marriage Therapy Radio together for seven years. 

Almost eight. 

It's almost seven. 

2017. 

Yeah, that's almost seven. I like to teach Laura math every now and again. 

That's right. One of us does the books; the other does not.

Part of our jam, too, is that we're very comfortable and familiar. We step on each other. We finish each other's sandwiches. We like to insult each other from time to time. We're like brother and sister, sometimes we try to figure out which one of us is the older one. Because again, we're good puzzle pieces, and we tend to shine at different moments. 

I think we figured out in the last three years, though, that Zach is definitely the older one, chronologically and emotionally. Well, you've done a lot of growing up in the last five years. You've surpassed me, and now I'm stalling out.

Well, when you turn 40, that's over the hill now. So it's all downhill from here. I love turning 40 and 50. 

Well, I think it's refreshing that not only are you both willing to be so open and transparent in your relating, and also just that you both complement each other. One of the things we were just chatting about before starting the recording is that you bring different skill sets, and that they're both so valuable and so, so helpful. 

I want to turn to that in a moment. Just on a quick side, my husband and I were watching the Olympics, and we were deep into the beach volleyball, because that's something that we play, the sport. And the announcers, my husband was like, that's just factually incorrect! I know that the other person knows it. But he's like, it's so strange, I think they're trained not to correct each other or not to say anything. So I think it's really great that you both can just be in the dialogue of challenging and teaching each other and growing together.

Well, it's easy with us. 

Yeah, we've built up a lot of, I don't want to call it scar tissue, but sort of resilience. Like, we don't take a lot of things personally. I mean, we are different—we have different points of view, we have different skills, and we do, we shine at different times. So I think we've carried each other from time to time a lot over the years. It's just like, every time I want to get offended, I just sort of breathe through that a little bit, and I just kind of don't.

He does get offended, though. He does, I will get the text messages.

No doubt, and I'll get snarky every once in a while. But it's the same thing, that ultimately, we trust the friendship, we trust the mission. I don't think we even have a stated mission. But we trust the relationship, so we just don't freak out about stuff too often.

I think we have a mission. I mean, we say this on the podcast that we are interested in entertaining people and giving them factual information, research-based, having really great conversations that make people go like: Oh, that's interesting, never thought about it that way! In a way that's very approachable. Because picking up a clinical book at a Barnes and Noble is probably not going to be super approachable for one out of two people in a partnership. One person might be that die-hard that's got their highlighter out, and they're sending text messages to their girlfriend of amazing quotes and whatever it might be. The other person, however we can get the information in their ears, that's what we're interested in. So hopefully it's relatable, hopefully it's information that's also entertaining, and sometime along the way, you learn something.

Absolutely. I mean, you're saying a lot of the relationship self-help books, probably 50% of people are just going to have a hard time getting engaged with it. So you're trying to increase, or decrease, depending on how we say that, but increase the likelihood that it's going to be approachable, and that it's going to be a little bit more relatable, so that it's easier to engage.

I have a little chip on my shoulder about some of this. 

For some people, that's going to be a podcast or therapy or this book that we just wrote. It's not going to work. But couples who lean into it and take it on together, they'll benefit from it. They'll yield results toward the thing that they want, which, in this particular case, is more skill and connection around conversation. I think you've got to find the thing that helps you work and do the work. That's kind of my bias about it.

Oh, you're both just such a beautiful example of what you're describing in your mission! Even as I'm reflecting on the interviews, Zach, one of the things that I very much appreciated is just your willingness to challenge framing, and how people think, how they verbalize, just even this idea. Just even in that reframe, the change agent isn't the book or the podcast or the therapy, it's the people. I just feel like that's so important and powerful, and really does bring focus to where the actual change is.

Well, we totally understand this in other places. Like, does cross fit work, does yoga work, does orange theory work, does training for a triathlon work? No, none of that works, unless you're in it and you lean into it. I got all kinds of memberships to gyms that I never went to, it didn't work.

Exactly. Then, Laura, you're just speaking into the research and the practices and the evidence-based resources that we can implement. You're being a master teacher for the Gottman Institute, and all the things that you bring in your perspective and your interview is so appreciated, just all the wisdom and ability to scaffold this for people to have it look actionable. Like, you told stories and you helped people look at, what does this actually look like when we live into it? And we do the work.

Yeah, exactly. I mean, it's one thing to read a book and theoretically think: Oh, it's a really lovely concept, and a reframe is interesting. So you were just saying reframe, this is the part of our complementary relationship is, Zach can tell an amazing story, and he can help take a complex subject or idea of a reframe. Then I look at that and I go, but how do you actually do that, how do you practice it? 

So here's one thing that I did with a client this week. You were just talking about reframe, and I was like, let's play this game. So I want both of you to think about something that your partner did in the last week that really frustrated you. I mean, got under your skin, frustrated you, pissed you off, whatever you're holding a little tension around. I want you to imagine what that is. Do you guys have it? 

Yes, I didn't even need to close my eyes. 

It was right there. Now I want you to just think about two qualities about them that showed up in the process of whatever it was that they were doing that was frustrating you, that are really admirable and lovely and wonderful. This is something that I had to actively do this week. This is a common theme in my life with my husband golfing way, way too much, in my opinion. So he hosted a group of 12 men in Bend Oregon, which is this lovely resort community, and he was gone for five days, and I didn't see him. So that meant that I was 100% parent. I was on, and I didn't have the support that I normally do. So I could have dug myself so deep in resentment, frustration, irritation, all of that. 

So I took a pause and I was like, but what is it about my husband in this moment, these qualities that are showing up that I am not even aware of, that I'm not paying any attention to? It turns out he's this amazing, gracious, incredibly generous host for all of these men. As I began to think about that, I was like: Wow, you know what? I get my husband's companionship 365 days a year, and these 12 men are starving for connection and starving for that intimate conversation. So it just helped me, in that moment, to reframe how important it is that these men, who a lot of people don't know this, but White middle-aged men are the ones that are really, really vulnerable to suicide and to loneliness and disconnection. So I was like, wow, how cool that my husband is hosting this week for these men to come and just be in each other's space. It completely shifted the way that I experienced that moment. 

So that's where I'm like, okay, in theory, a reframe is really cool. But what do you actually do? So that's just a small exercise that I used in the last week to reframe my frustration and irritability. Yes, I'll still have a conversation with my husband and say: I didn't love that, here's what I would have loved instead. But it changed the way in which I interacted with him and the way in which my thought process was. So just an example of how our worlds collide and how we complement each other in our professional relationship.

Yes, I'll play. Even as you were starting to say, I was describing my husband and I, this is in the backdrop of two years—you both have known me as we've met throughout the last couple years—of us traveling, trying to find home. We've relocated, bought a house, and we're in a renovation. So one of my husband and I's difference and constant challenge, as we approach something, is I tend to be very engaged in the the effort and the details. My desire is like, what's the best outcome? What would I love, and what is that going to take? And I'm willing to put forward the effort. My husband is often looking at what's the best viable option, and looking at how to be efficient, how to be streamlined and conserving energy, where that's not even a factor in how I'm approaching something. 

So I was laying in bed a few nights ago, and I was feeling some criticism around, why isn't he more engaged, why isn't he taking initiative? Like, these contractors need certain information, and there's all this mental load of all the details that go into all the things that need to get done. I was like: Okay, I'm being kind of judgy. If he were to be doing the thing that I wanted, what would that allow me to feel? That's one of the questions I asked that helped me with the reframe. I was like, oh! I could relax more. I was like, okay, that's really, really helpful for me. 

To take it a step further, as you're inviting real appreciation in our partnership, I tend to have way too much stuff on my list to do. And when we partner and we're working together, I've learned so much from him around doing less—the ability to just prioritize sleep, to be able to do less and be in a little bit more flow. He can sometimes run in the spectrum, or the continuum, of being a little bit more wanting things to just happen. I'm more proactive and taking initiative. I think if you have a Venn diagram, that middle space is, they say flow. It's not total surrender, and it's not total activation. So I think that's where we operate best. But to just really appreciate his quality and what he's brought and what it continues to teach me, and really how he holds such a solid, grounded container that I can relax. Do I want him to activate more sometimes? Yes, and what that means for me. To your point, we could have conversation in that there's more around how we work together, but to hold more than just the criticism and the judgment. 

If I were doing therapy on you right now, I would invite a certain kind of curiosity about something you said a little bit at the top of your thing, which is, if he were doing the thing I wanted to do, what would that allow me to feel? That's your question. So the place I'd get curious is, well, could you allow yourself to feel that thing even if he doesn't do the thing that you want to do?

Precisely, and that was part of what I was recognizing, is like: Oh, I need to do some self-care. That's a good indicator, for sure. But I didn't speak to that. You're right, absolutely.

I do this with Laura a lot, like, where I'm like: Oh, she drives me crazy. Then I go, okay, so what am I going to do about that? I could get upset and I could get snarky, and I do from time to time. Or I could get interested and curious, where I could just sort of go: Oh, that's actually not the deal, she's not good at that, and so I need to be good. I do the same thing with my wife, where she drives me crazy and I'm like: Okay, I can either attribute that to her being a codependent, needy, Enneagram two. Or I can be like: Oh no, she's actually really good at that, I have something to learn here. I wonder how I can step up, and maybe I don't need her to change at all in order for me to choose to step up. That's been the empowering part for me.

That comes, honestly, from building and growing this muscle of curiosity, wherein one of the things I talk about with clients with regard to curiosity is, yes, it's definitely asking questions. How did your day go, or how's it going at the gym, or how did your conversation with your mom go? It's definitely that. But it's also making space for them to surprise you. I'm willing to be surprised by my partner, versus certain about them. Because when I'm certain about them, I put them in a hole and I and now I have to operate around that hole. But if I'm letting them surprise me, I go: Huh, I wonder what else is going on here? So many more possibilities open up, I guess is the point. 

Oh my goodness, yes. Speaking about my husband and his more grounded presence, he's much more somatic than I am. I can get into my head. Zach, there are times where he might talk a little slower.

Than you?

I know, I was just thinking that!

You're the gentlest person I know, you're the most thoughtful when talking.

Yeah, you're like very zen. 

Well, I'm happy to hear that. That's not what it feels like sometimes.

Oh no, what you're projecting is a zen quality. I was just thinking, we're going to come on, and it's like two toddlers that talk over each other, and there's nothing zen about Zach and myself. So this gentleman, we need to meet him now.

Oh my gosh, yes! It has to be an intentional thing that I'm focused on. Because if I'm asking him questions, or if I'm anticipating what he's going to say, and then I try to chime in, which I do do—which he doesn't love, but I do do. But when I can slow down and just wonder, even if there's silence, and even if he's not talking, sometimes a question will emerge in me that I would have never thought about or asked had I been trying to think and know or anticipate. It's more of this body empathy wondering, and if I can wonder and then what evolves from there. Or even just when I hold space and just stay curious and stay present. I don't even know that it needs to be words, I think curiosity can still be in a presencing. That something will come from that, that would have never come, and it's sometimes the most beautiful. I am always touched when I can access those moments with him, because it's just quite special. I think the curiosity is just accessing so much unknown territory, that when we're decided or know or certain about, it just doesn't give space for.

Yeah. I was working with clients, and I give them all sorts of exercises. I'm all about giving couples tools. Do this, try this, whatever it might be. Rather than just having a conversation during therapy, I want them to have experiences outside of therapy that can prolong that momentum. The pushback was: Laura, we already know everything about each other, we literally have been together for the last 25 years. I was sitting there, and I just watched the look on the female space. It's kind of like, what is it that curiosity is doing for the relationship, for the human being, for the person? I truly think that when we are curious, or we say, I don't know everything there is to know about you, or we say, I want to know more about you. It sends the message of, you are interesting to me! I adore you. I think you're fascinating. You're totally intoxicating and intriguing, and I want to know more. That's what curiosity really is sending the message of. 

Like, you're not interesting to me. I already know how this conversation is going to go. I know what you're going to order at the restaurant. I know exactly what you're going to do after we get into the car and your order of operations. But we're really hoping to infuse in relationships that new wonder and that curiosity that comes from it. 

Yeah, that comment. I can appreciate the familiarity and the history, and also the place in which the door gets shut on opportunity. So I'm curious, do you have what you would encourage listeners? Even as they're hearing us talk about curiosity and what can come from this, what might you encourage as an exercise or something to workshop? 

Oh, that's interesting. Well, we have so many to choose from, I don't even know how many exercises ended up in the book. Do you remember, Zach, is it like 45?

Yeah, just the structure of the book is this introduction around curiosity and how to have conversations and how to set those up for success, how to posture, how to set context. Then there's maybe 45 topics that run through, the easiest way to say it is, chronologically how the relationship unfolds. But in each one, there's a reflection, and then an exercise itself, and then a series of questions that you just can sit in and linger on. And what I love about it is, it's a good-looking book. You can flip it open, and you don't have to read in order, you just pick a page that you like. So if you're interested in talking about your parenting philosophy, if you're interested in talking about your plans for retirement, if you're interested in just reflecting and reminiscing on your first dates and how you got here, there's all kinds of ways that you can lean into that. 

I'll give Laura credit, I'm not an exercise guy. People come in and they want homework. I'm like, I don't know, homework doesn't work. But this is what I'll say. Are you going to do the homework? I'll give you homework, but are you going to do it? But just the creativity that that she brings to the table in terms of setting people up for success there. You used the word somatic a little bit earlier, I think Laura does a great job of putting people inside their bodies. So even if it's like, touch your knees together, or make eye contact for a prolonged period of time. So those are the ones that I always find most risky, but also most helpful.

Oh my gosh, risky is such a good way to put it, very vulnerable. So this is definitely in the book, for sure. Because what we do in our practice, what I do in my practice, I've just built these exercises into the book as well. But when partners are having conversations with each other, they're more vulnerable. Just asking each other questions that go beyond shop talk. 

I had this couple this week, and they said, we've been going through some of these open-ended questions that you've given us, Laura. It's kind of incredible, we haven't had conversations that weren't need-based. Like, let's talk about the kids, let's talk about the car, let's talk about grocery shopping. They said we haven't had those conversations in a really long time. I said, cool, I want to see what that looks like. So I proposed a couple of open-ended questions. They sat not looking at each other, their bodies completely turned away. I was like: Ooh, let's do something difficult, let's be vulnerable with our bodies. The vulnerability that comes from actually turning your body postures toward one another. It's really interesting, because it just takes someone encouraging both people to do the same thing. It's like, who's going to jump first, who's going to turn their body, who's going to raise their gaze, look me in the eye? 

Once I have couples do that together, you can see that there's such a yearning that's met. It's like, they want that eye contact. But it's just unless a book is going to say, now turn your bodies toward each other, hold one another's gaze for 30 seconds. It's very difficult, because one person doesn't want to take that first step. But when they do it together, there's a level of safety. So watching this couple have a conversation, but raising the ante when it came to the vulnerability of eye contact and physically moving their bodies closer toward one another, and talking about something that wasn't shop talk, I bet they had sex that night. I bet we really just opened up that intimacy.

Absolutely! It is a bit of a change of gear, change of focus, from the logistics or the practicality or the business of life, and it is a bit more protective. And when we do take those emotional risks to turn to each other and show the emotion, that's how we build intimacy and connection, is through this real visible cues of emotion, and being able to send those signals very clearly. So in this place of curiosity and sharing, and to be seen, to be held, both in context, and also body language and somatically. It's quite connecting. It just reminds me, it was a session with a couple, and they've been together for 18 years, and two children and all the things that keep them busy. We had done this looking at each other's eyes for just, I think I set the timer for two minutes.

Even 10 seconds is a long time.

There was no talking, but afterwards debriefing. He was like, it took me back to our wedding day, just seeing you and seeing your eyes and just that connection. I was just like, wow! I mean, not everybody is going to feel that in just two minutes. But it can, for some, just access a really good space that's hard to turn towards. Because I think, to your point, when we're a little armored up, it's hard to reach if the other person is not available. It feels like rejection; they're not responding to the bed. It just can feel like: Oh, I'd rather not do that. 

Okay, so you mentioned armored up, which is kind of cool. Because one of the things that we've done is, you sort of progressively move through these topics chronologically, where early on in our relationship, what are some of the fundamental friction points that couples might experience, or conversations that they need to have, or tasks that they need to accomplish? 

But we move them through like: Okay, so now we're going to start you off with a simple exercise, and then we're going to move you through some deeper conversation, and then we're going to create a lasting ritual for you to take this momentum into your daily life. It is a process. You can't just jump straight into eye-gazing. It's scary.

No kidding! The ritual, Zach, I'm wondering if you want to speak to that. Because there's a bit of, to your point, being able to access this that can feel doable. If it's too much, it can feel like ah! As we progress in the progression, people can have a really beautiful experience, but then it lives in its one moment, and to make it a ritual is really bringing it into living. 

Yeah. I don't want to keep harping on this point, but this idea that couples work. I mean, I always say, nothing changes if nothing changes, and people live their lives in space and time. So I'll go through and I'll be like: Hey, you want things to change? I've done this hundreds of times with couples. I'll go tell me about your day, tell me about Wednesday. They'll be like, what do you mean? I go, just talk to me about Wednesday. I'm like, do you wake up in the same bed? They're like, yeah, or sometimes it's no. I'll say, do you wake up at the same time? No. Well, who gets up first? I'll literally have them walk me through their entire day. Like, when do they leave for work, who does what? How do they pick up the kids? Do they have dinner around the table? What happens at the table? What happens after dinner? Do you go to bed at the same time? No, okay, but whatever. I go, so this thing that you want to change, when will that happen, when will you do that? Will you get up at the same time? I mean, even if you don't go to bed at the same time, will you go to the bed at the same time? Pull out your little reconnect workbook that Zach and Laura told you to buy, ask a couple questions. 

Because people go, I don't know if therapy is working. I'm like, this is one hour out of 168 in a week, that you have to figure out how to use. So when people want to experience change, let's say they want to go and they want to buy a book, I'm like, you have to decide that you're going to do it on Thursdays at six, and that you protect that time, or that you're going to do it before you go to bed. I know very few couples who go to bed at the same time, because one of them is a night owl or whatever. I'm like, again, you can go to the bed at the same time, and you can carve out 10 minutes that ends with you tucking her in and kissing her on the forehead, ask her a couple questions, and then go play your video games, or do your job, or watch your show. 

Meaning, like: Oh, we didn't do that. So what is regular enough? Is it once a week? Is it once a day? I don't prescribe, not until I understand people's lives, how their time works out. But I'm not going to tell people to do it once a day or once a week, or whatever. You have to do it in a way that feels like change to you. So you could do it in the car. You'd be like: Oh, every day we drive to soccer practice and we sit there for an hour on our phones. I'm like, why don't you sit there for an hour with your little Zach and Laura book? 

Yeah, just pick one moment to intervene. The thing with agreeing to a ritual is, I always need some kind of a trigger, something that is going to make you go: Oh, that's right, this is what we're supposed to do. It could be brushing your teeth. Like, when you brush your teeth, you're going to give your partner a little smack on the butt, or just initiate physical touch. Or when you go to soccer practice, this is when we walk around the soccer field and we talk about what's going on with our families? It's like, what are the things that are going to remind you that you're intervening to do something different? 

The book has all sorts of ways to give you ideas of different rituals that you can do. One ritual that was really lovely, I started meeting with a couple, they had a previous therapist, and I said, what was it about your previous therapist that you remember that worked for you? They said, we met with him for three years, and to be perfectly honest, I don't think we really remember much. I was like, man, that's a bummer! But they said, but there's this one thing that we learned from him, and we do it every day, and it's been a game-changer. I was like: Oh, that's cool, that's a ritual. 

It was the only thing over three years of therapy that stuck. And what they do is they put on a song, and they do what's called swaying, and they just put their bodies together, and they wrap their arms around each other. It's not a dance, but the whole point is to sync their breathing and to feel the connection. They're literally going heart to heart, hip to hip, shoulder to shoulder, and they're just allowing their bodies to connect. So when the song is over, they're done. But what they eventually end up doing is just swaying together. They said, that's been the biggest game-changer, and it's something that we do every single day, and that's the only thing that I can tell you has been lasting change in three years of therapy. I was like, cool! So there's something about the rituals that we can grab on to. Why are you smiling, Zach? 

Well, different strokes for different folks. I always have people who want to come do deep trauma work and understand their family of origin and work on their patterns and themes. Maybe you just hold on to each other and sway in your kitchen, so you're all fixed.

Yeah. I was just thinking when you said you have a couple come in and you're like, tell me about your Wednesday, and they tell you from beginning to end their Wednesday. And you're like: Okay, well, that's all the time we have today. Thanks for coming.

I was thinking the same thing. Like, that could take a while.

It takes a while. But you know what, when's the last time you actually thought about your day? Like, you really went through and you thought about: why do I do what I do, what does it mean, what does it represent? I mean, we say all the time, people want to tell you what their priorities are, and they go: Oh, my priorities are, I don't know, feeding the homeless. I go, tell me about your day, show me your calendar. If feeding the homeless isn't on there, you can't claim it as a priority. I mean, again, not talking about the day itself. But you talked about two minutes, people having eye contact for two minutes. I haven't done anything on purpose for two minutes that was just for me, just for my relationship. It's like, people don't think about their time, they just are moving through their time. I gotta do this and that. 

Jessica's husband, he's very intentional. He slows down, he can think about his day. 

Yeah, I'm going to get off this call, I'm going straight to the car dealership, and then I'm going straight to the dentist. How much better would it be if I sat and said: Hey, let me think about those cool things that I learned from Jessica and from Laura this morning? I need to reflect on that, write some of that down and see if I can take some of that to Rebecca. I mean, all of that would take me two minutes. I don't know, it takes a while, and I don't mind. But people are like, huh!

In fact, even just some of your languaging here today, there's been a few things, I'm like: Oh, wow! I mean, you say it and it has a little bit of a pause, but I'm like, I could just marinate it on that for a minute. Like, it's not a ritual unless you miss it. The quality of that being something we do every day, and it's a game-changer. We sway, we hold each other, we are connected in our bodies and we're seeking.

Yeah, and the level of curiosity. I mean, let's take these swaying people, if they miss it on a Thursday, so on Thursday, they just don't do it, they miss it. They miss it. But now they go, well, what's going on? Now they have a piece of data to go, what's going on? Is somebody sick? Do they have COVID? Is somebody angry? Did Alexa not know how to play the music that day? What is the factor? This is where curiosity comes in is to go, this marker I've put in my life to help me understand that I'm moving my life forward in the way that I want, it's been removed. What do I need to learn about that? Because it doesn't always mean something. It could just be you're out of town. Oh, we missed it today, because you were in Georgia at a conference. That doesn't mean your relationships in trouble, but it does help you mark time and make meaning. So I think if people don't have those in their lives, they're just moving through time.

That's the thing I'm getting to Zach, because as you're talking about, nothing changes. I forgot how you said it.

Nothing changes if nothing changes.

Yes, that it's so important to just pause on that. That we can be in the habits and the repetition, and by human nature, we tend to automize and default to conserve energies, so there's that tendency. Yet, if we're not bringing awareness and being intentional. This is something, I think you're also inviting, Laura. It reminds me of the book Atomic Habits, and how as you talked about having something that's a reminder, or something that brings awareness, stacking. Also just the cues of like: Oh yeah, I was going to do that thing, or I'm going to smack you on the butt. And also that you can't say you want to do service work if that's who you are. I think in that book, he was talking about, I forgot the name. Do you remember the name? 

Was it James Clear? 

Yes, and he's talking about, are you the type of person you're becoming? I think when we're talking about relationship and really cultivating more intimacy, more knowing, more connection, that takes a level of engagement of: I am being the person that does this. That might require me to change my habits or be more intentional about certain ways that I move through time and space in life. 

What would an engaged spouse do here?

If that was the title, if that was what you wanted to embody. Because we have this level, the very first pages of the book are talking about your intentions. What is your purpose? What is your intentions? Kind of setting the tone and the accountability piece. 

But I remember, I read a book, and it was something about like, you are an Iron Man. I'm doing this whole training situation. It's like, are you the type of person that just is a weekend warrior that goes out and trains, or are you an Iron Man? If you embody that, what does that mean? It means that when you're out for happy hour with your girlfriends, you order a non-alcoholic beverage because you're an Iron Man, and you have to get up early in the morning, you have to go run. So all of the choices that you make are embodied in that vision of what you're trying to create.

That's the first part of the book, is like, what is it that you're wanting to be? Do you want to be an engaged spouse that is pursuing your relationship with desire, intensity, all of these things? That's kind of what I'm curious about for people, is like, are you married, or are you something more? I always tell people when I introduce my husband, I say: This is my lover, or this is my boyfriend. I just am trying to send the message to them that I'm engaged with him in a different way. I am not in simply a contract that I signed 15 years ago, but I am pursuing my husband daily in a different way, and that means that I am his lover. I love introducing, because people just cock their head sideways and they're like: Huh, we're going to find you later and talk to you, you're interesting. What's all that?

I introduce Rebecca as my ex-girlfriend. She hates it.

Oh, I love it! Zach, this points to something you were saying around having purpose too, and when you talk about the intention and the vision, I can feel inside myself when I'm in alignment with what matters most to me. Because I think they say, I think it's David Rico or Bach, I can't remember, he wrote this book, Smart Couples Finish Rich. I read it years ago. But he's got this chapter two that he's talking about values. In all his workshops, he's like, people will rattle off all the things they want to do, this trip, or I want to acquire this. Then when I ask them about their top five values, it's kind of like crickets, that people aren't always super aware of their most meaningful values. He's like, people typically don't change their values over the course of their life that much, and they're usually very convicted around them. So when we look at relationship and this being a top value, I can feel inside myself, when I'm living into with purpose and intention and participating in caring for my person, and loving him and doing my best to show up for the quality of that relationship, I can feel fulfilled that I am in service of a value that means a tremendous amount to me.

Well said!

I mean, again, I do values exercises with my couples too, where I march them through and I can make them choose. Because we all have values. I'll be like, what are yours? They're like, well, maybe they're unexamined. But the thing about when I do this exercise with couples, I make them go through a list of about maybe 60 values, and they only get to keep four. But 56 of them aren't bad. When they've gotten rid of 56 values, those aren't bad things. They're just not the things that you can focus on. So you get down to three or four, and now we go: Okay, cool. I love that those are your values. Back it up. Prove it. Next time you come in here, you're going to be able to defend these values to me? 

I had a couple do this exercise one time, and they were in the process of moving. They moved into a house that had four columns on the front, and when they got down to their four values, they painted the four values on the front of their house. They immediately became accountable to everyone who walked up into their house. So maybe one of them was gratitude, and they're like, what is this all about, why do you have gratitude on the front? They're like, that's one of our four values. They go, how do you do that? Oh, well, every night we sit down and we make a list of things that we're grateful for that happen to the day, or we have some expression. I'm like: Okay, now you got it. I don't know that we put something like that in the book. 

We did. 

Oh, good. So that's in the book. If you want to check it out, you can buy it now at Amazon.com. It's available wherever books are sold.

Well, I'm feeling really how lucky we all are that the two of you have partnered to bring your gifts and talents to provide such guidance and support to make this actionable. But also, not just in a formulaic way, that there's this curiosity, this different way of thinking that accesses new learning, new ways of connecting, and all that you're both speaking to. That you bring so much in your work, that it just has so much substance along with all the research, and the efficacy that you bring, both of you. 

Yeah, so you were mentioning your book. Is there anything you want to say before we pivot towards the book and a little bit more about how people can engage with you both?

Yeah, I don't know. Again, I think you said it. I mean, when we say it, this is how we say it, both for Marriage Therapy Radio and the book, which is called Reconnect. We have two goals. Goal number one is that people will engage and go: Huh, I've never thought about it like that before. We want their brain to do something that their brain has not done. The second one is, we want them to have practical, applicable ways to move the needle in their relationship. So if we're getting that done, then we feel good. Maybe that is our mission statement. But that's kind of what wakes us up in the morning, and we're glad to be able to have partnered in this way, in this project. Again, I got to do the things that I love, which is craft clever reflections, and Laura got to do the things that she loves, which is build exercises for engagement. I think in the end, we ended up with a really cool product or project for people to take on, if they're trying to move the needle in their relationship. 

Yeah. I just think about it as like, do anything different. When you said play out your Wednesday, just do anything different. Have a different experience. Rather than talking to your partner side by side, look them in the eye. Put your hand on their chest and feel them breathing in and out. Have a conversation about death that you have never had with your partner before. I mean, we dive into so many rich topics that couples have either danced around or they've never engaged, or they learned a long time ago that wasn't a topic that we talk about because it doesn't go well. So we don't just throw them in the deep end. We teach them how to regulate, how to have these vulnerable conversations in a safe way. But it really is about just shaking things up, and experience your partner in a way that moves you from certainty to curiosity. That's kind of the goal. 

Yes, amazing! I think even with all the love and commitment and devotion and effort, that so much of these conversations don't happen, or so many of these topics don't get addressed. And the support that you're offering, that it's not just: Oh, figure it out! That you're offering support around how to regulate the nervous system, and to have safe container and ground to be able to engage and think differently and do differently. Wonderful!

So do you want to say the name of the book and the name of your podcast again? I'll make sure to put the links on today's show. 

Yeah, it's available for pre-sale, so you can find the book. It will be officially launched on September 10th. The book is called Reconnect: A Marriage Counseling Workbook. It's guided conversations and exercises for a long-lasting relationship. So you can pre-order it now on Amazon, which is great, because you'll get a copy as soon as it's released. Our podcast, if you're interested in hearing, it's a weekly episode. It's called Marriage Therapy Radio, we have over 350 episodes. I mean, we have a lot to take. So if you're just looking to binge it, you can go back to number one from 2017 and follow our lives as they have evolved, which has been quite a journey for the two of us. 

2017 was almost seven years ago.

We caught that part. Thanks, Zach.

We started in October of 2017. We're creeping up. It's crazy to me!

It is, it's a lot to look back on. I think I started in the beginning of 2015, and it's just like, wow! It's such a journey. So the other thing that occurs to me about your book is, there often are therapists listening to the show. So this could even be a good assist, either to refer to clients or even just as a supportive tool.

One thing that's been really cool is, we did send it out to a bunch of therapists in advance, and they got to look at it. They're kind, they're our friends. But we got a lot of really positive feedback about how they will use it in their practices as homework, as things that they assign to couples. We got one guy in particular who's like, I already bought 10 of them because I'm going to hand them out to whatever. I mean, he doesn't have them in hand. But it is cool to have colleagues and peers appreciating the book on its own merits, which maybe they would tell us if they didn't like it. But it seems like it's gotten a really good feedback from not just couples, but also from professionals. So thanks for bringing that point up. 

Yeah, the enthusiasm, and that this is something we can all benefit from. Just even as I was reflecting, Zach, even one simple reframe or question, we can marinate on that. One question that prompts a different action or different way of relating can be a game-changer. Like, three years, and one simple thing that was a game-changer that stuck. 

Well, I'll make sure again to have all the links on today's show. Thank you so much for joining us, and for joining me in this conversation. 

Well, thanks for having us. It was fun to be back all together. Really appreciate it.

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