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Navigating emotional turbulence in relationships often feels like weathering a storm without an umbrella. When emotions swell and reach a boiling point, they can cloud our judgment, leading to misunderstandings and disconnection with loved ones. But what if anger and emotional flooding could serve as gateways to deeper understanding and genuine connection rather than barriers?

In this episode, we delve into the roots and triggers of emotional flooding, offering essential tools and insights to help you manage overwhelming emotions. By exploring concepts like Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) and Internal Family Systems (IFS), we aim to help you identify the vulnerabilities beneath anger and develop healthy ways to process your emotions. Practical strategies for emotional regulation, curiosity, and effective communication are shared to foster healthier relational dynamics and navigate the complexities of intimacy and personal triggers.

Whether you're dealing with stressors from past experiences or facing present-day challenges in your relationships, this episode provides valuable guidance on building a more resilient and emotionally attuned partnership.

Gayane Aramyan, a Licensed Marriage and Family Therapist in Los Angeles, specializes in perinatal therapy, guiding women and couples through pregnancy, postpartum, and parenthood. She has additional training in Anger Management, EFT for Couples, Grief Processing, ACT, and IFS. Featured in Women's Health, CNBC, Forbes, The Los Angeles Times, and HuffPost, she empowers clients through life transitions and the challenges of parenthood.

In this episode

06:59 How Gayene Aramayan began her journey to helping couples understand each other’s evolving selves.

09:05 What is emotional flooding and how does it manifest in relationships?

14:51 How suppressing emotions in childhood lead to struggles with managing feelings in adulthood?

20:59 Strategies to help recognize emotional triggers and core feelings beyond anger.

25:31 How can couples handle strong emotions constructively?

30:51 How is our inner child impacting marriage?

38:57 Identifying and dissecting couples' emotional interaction cycles.

44:04 How does writing transform your thought process?

47:06 Awareness and preparation for perinatal depression and anxiety.

48:29 The importance of identifying your emotional hotspots?

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Take time to recognize personal triggers and physical symptoms of emotional flooding, such as a racing heart or feeling hot.
• Use mindfulness techniques like deep breathing, grounding exercises, and embodied presence to calm your nervous system.
• Write down your thoughts and emotions to engage your logical brain and gain deeper self-awareness.
• Agree on a strategy with your partner to temporarily withdraw and self-regulate during emotional flooding, making it clear the discussion will resume later.
• Cultivate curiosity and communication in your relationship by asking open-ended questions to understand emotions without personalizing behaviors.
• Work to constructively address these vulnerabilities by identifying the deeper emotions or unmet needs beneath anger.
• Use EFT to guide couples through recognizing and breaking negative interaction cycles.
• Prioritize Self-Care and Knowledge Pre-childbirth: For expecting parents, focus on mental health preparation and self-care tools to support emotional well-being during pregnancy and postpartum.

Mentioned

What is Internal Family Systems? (*IFS Institute website) (link)

What is EFT? (*ICEEFT website) (link)

ERP 423: How to Transcend Trauma (And the Effects Experience in Relationship) — An Interview with Dr. Frank Anderson

Identify The Cycle Guide

Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication

Connect with Gayane Aramyan

Websites: therapywithgayane.com

Instagram: instagram.com/therapywithgayane

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About this Episode

Gayane, thank you for being with us today.

Thank you so much for having me.

Yeah, I appreciate this topic. I think it's something many couples are experiencing, individuals are experiencing, around emotional flooding, and how that might be showing up in their dynamic.

Before we pivot to that topic, I also know you do a lot in other ways, and would love for you to share a little bit about yourself, and also how this became a topic of interest for you.

Sure. So I specialized in perinatal mental health and couples therapy. I have an almost 4-year-old boy that, when I had him during the pandemic, I was just so clueless on what motherhood and postpartum was all about. Even though I was a therapist, there was very little that we learned about this phase that is just so life-changing. Before that, I was really enjoying working with women in all parts of life, and I've always been passionate about couples therapy. I've been with my husband for about 15 years now. So although we've only been together, it's been different versions of ourselves with each part of life. So it's kind of like one marriage, but 10 different people in one marriage. It sounds strange, but that's kind of the concept I really resonate with. It's because we're just different versions of ourselves.

I think that really fueled my passion for helping couples, is because even though I know my husband and I've known him for 15 years, each stage of our life brings on a new set of issues that we're like: Okay, how do we navigate this? I sometimes share with my couples and I'll even say: Listen, this is a topic that I've had in my household. Even though I know the tools and I know how to break free from them when I'm emotionally charged up, none of it exists. So this is why it's very close to heart, close to home. I really want to help couples understand each other better. Because I feel like sometimes, as a couples therapist, as I sit on this couch over here, I'm like: Hold on, are you hearing what I'm hearing? Because you're seeing the same thing, but you're not understanding each other, so let's break the barrier. So that's where my passion comes from.

I love it, and I really appreciate the humanity that I'm hearing you describe and that you raise your hand. I raise my hand with you, that when I feel challenged or activated in my nervous system, I feel all the things that trigger me in the experience of flooding at times, or the activation reaction. It's difficult. It's difficult to negotiate. Yes, I trust the process and I've committed to it, because I've worked it. Like you said, I have tools around how to break free, so to speak. Yet, it still is painful. It still is scary. It's still hard.

Absolutely, yeah.

Well, so some people might be familiar with the term flooding. Do you feel like emotional flooding is different than flooding? Or where would you like to start about just defining emotional flooding for people?

So I think of emotional flooding, if you think of the metaphor, really just being in this place where all the feelings internally, it's just like you can't breathe, and maybe you're sensing physical sensations. Really, it happens when you're triggered. I really like to explain what happens in the brain when we are emotionally triggered. It's that the emotional part of the brain turns on, and the logical part of the brain turns off. If there are things that you haven't processed, this is where the emotional flooding happens. We get triggered, and then all these emotions that we haven't dealt with come to surface, and our logic is turned off. We just don't know how to act. We say things we might regret. We might do things we might regret. So part of understanding emotional flooding means knowing what your triggers are, which a lot of people actually don't know. They have no clue. Because oftentimes, when we are emotionally triggered, we think it's our partner, it's their fault. The finger is always pointing the other way instead of looking in the mirror.

So that's how I like to frame emotional flooding. Usually, it's whenever something hasn't been processed. And I like to think of triggers like open wounds. We all have different triggers. So what might trigger Partner A might not trigger Partner B, and that's just because of the lens they're viewing the situation with. That has factors of how they were raised, what beliefs they've been taught at home, what their teacher said in fifth grade, how their relationship was before this. So, so many different factors influence how we view the same situation from different perspectives.

Yes, and the layers here of lived experience from all these different aspects and domains. Even there's research that supports the epigenetics, that there's things that we get from generations, that live in us and affect our response and our nervous system. So it's a lot that we can interpret the same circumstance very differently. It's almost as if, to your point, you're in a mediating role because it's as if people are speaking different languages, and it's quite foreign to be able to see that your partner is having a completely different experience.

Absolutely.

When we talk about emotional flooding, I'm also hearing what you're describing about the brain science and what people might associate with the fight or flight or freeze. Is that something? Because you're right, I don't think most people are aware, unless they've done a level of self-study or have engaged in some type of personal growth or therapeutic support, that they will see or feel their heart racing, or feel their kicking into that reaction, whether or not it's wanting to back away or the shutdown, or whether or not it's amping up. Do you feel that flooding is all-encompassing anytime that trigger is happening? Or do you feel like it's a certain point that, as you're describing the analogy of flooding, like we have a hard time breathing, or I've had clients describe seeing red or just this tunnel vision. Do you feel like flooding is its own thing in the activation process, or is it all-encompassing?

I do think it is a certain point. Because if you have worked through the triggers, I like to think of the open wound metaphor, and if it's something you've processed, it's a scar. So you might notice it, you know it's there. You might even get sad about it and feel it, but it's not the same. Think of a paper cut, and every time something touches it and you get this reaction, that means it's not processed. 

Yes, I love that analogy of the open wound. It's a really good distinction for people to recognize. I've even heard people reference, I'm not sure I love the word hysteria, but they're referencing, when it seems like a bigger reaction, that there's likely history. I think hysteria with history, it's catchy. But it's what you're saying, that there's unprocessed, and that could be a signpost that perhaps there's some things going on and the body is communicating.

Yes. I always start with, when we're trying to figure out, I have training in anger management and I used to run anger management groups, and I was a facilitator for about five or eight years. It was so interesting—not to generalize, but that this is what the reality was—most of the people in the group were men, and some were court-mandated, so they did not want to be there. And by the third or fourth session, I would crack them open and I would get to them, and they would say: Wow, if only I knew this is what I felt, instead of immediately going to the aggression, I wouldn't have left my life. I wouldn't have done the thing I did. I wouldn't have done this or that. So, so many things would come to surface that they were just so unaware of. Try working with someone who does not want to be there, it just adds so much more layers of like: Okay, let's figure this out.

I think, again, not to generalize, but most men, but really, I think most of us were raised with the language of: Don't cry, get up, get through it, get over it, move on, move forward, don't feel what you feel. I think that's exactly why now we have adults who are being emotionally flooded, and they don't have the tools to know what to do with it. And now that I have a 4-year-old, listen, I don't get it right all the time. I would say most of the time I don't get it right. But there are moments where I say: It's okay, I get it. You worked so hard.

There's these Magna-Tiles that my son built, I don't know if you've heard of them. But I think it's such a cool metaphor of life. Because he built them, and then it falls apart and he gets so upset. Now he says things like, I worked so hard on trying to build that. So I take that as such an opportunity. Because I'm not really emotionally invested in that moment, it's his thing he's going through. So I'm better able to show up and say: Wow, you worked so hard on that. I believe you, I get it. It's so upsetting. Moments like that make me feel so empowered of like, maybe this generation will be a little different. Because no one did that for us. They did the best they could, absolutely no blame. And God knows what our kids are going to say about us in 30 years.

But just that, and I see that all the time with all my clients, we have adults now who just don't know what they feel. They're not aware of it. They have no clue that the anger they feel is actually a projection of something else going on deeper inside. So the first step of all of this is to identify what your triggers are. Because most of us don't even know that.

Yeah, no kidding. I appreciate that you're saying, collectively, there is change. Like, you as a parent and what you're really trying to support in emotional attunement and helping organize and identify, helping your son really feel seen and also supported in his emotional process and how to work through that. That there's real language and relationship around that. And that we haven't all had that, and that was not the norm that we look at in generations before.

You're really bringing a correlation here, that when we compartmentalize or we don't have the range in our human emotional experience, we cut off. We say it's not okay, it's not acceptable. Or even society, family, community tells us it's not okay to be afraid, it's not okay to be feeling shame, or these difficult emotions. That it all gets channeled into anger, as that's the form of expression. And/or what you're saying is, it accumulates. That when we don't have things that we've really given space to process, especially when we talk about any type of trauma or emotional injuries, that they layer and they accumulate. And that can be, the metaphor is, the straw that broke the camel's back. Is that right? Especially for the people, helping them recognize, perhaps there were 10 other things that you were feeling that correlated with this outburst or this rage.

Yes, absolutely. Usually, what's going on deep down inside is something vulnerable, like feeling alone, feeling sad. Almost those childlike feelings that nobody validated, they're now coming up in this adult. The reason why anger is so easy and it's like the go-to for people, it's because that's what the brain was designed to do. It's to react, to protect, to hunt, to keep us safe, to do all those things that the modern-day brain doesn't need to do. 

It's almost as if, if we give time and space and can identify there's something going on here, might I be able to give this some space to explore and understand the deeper layer? That we're having an ability to either reprocess or metabolize it, when we maybe didn't have it before. Is that right?

Yes, absolutely. I think a helpful tip is also, as you're working through, to not get emotionally flooded, is understanding your triggers, identifying what you actually feel deep down. If it was anger, okay, that's valid. Absolutely. But what's underneath the anger? What's a need that wasn't met maybe? Because usually that's what's happening if we're getting emotionally flooded, there's also some of that unmet needs. The other part of this is, how do we communicate that? That's another tool we don't have.

Oh my goodness, I know! I so agree with you. Well, I appreciate, I can sense too, and your language maybe is here or not, but the training in the Emotional Focused Therapy (EFT). Also, I'm a big fan of the Internal Family Systems (IFS). I had Frank Anderson on the show not too long ago, and I was geeking out because he does such a great job teaching.

All that to say, what is your opinion, when you're helping guide people, to notice the trigger, identify the trigger, and start to begin to identify some of those core emotions or primary attachment needs? Oftentimes, that anger is really what's visible and what they're most aware of. There are schools of thought, I think even Susan Johnson labels anger as a primary emotion, and I know anger can be an alert to when we feel an injustice or a violation. And also, it's deemed as a secondary emotion by a lot of people. I do appreciate the vulnerability that lies underneath the anger, and I'm often querying that as well—both in myself and my own personal life and process, as well as my clients. So what would you say here, just for people listening? It sounds as if you want them to see the anger, notice the anger, and also see if there's more.

Yes, there is, definitely. I'm so glad you brought that up, because there is a difference of schools of thought on that, for sure. Working with anger management clients, I just saw a result of like, there is something there underneath anger. 

Especially when it comes to couples, when I do this kind of processing with couples, like: Okay, I get it, you were really triggered by that, you were really upset. What was happening underneath? What are you really trying to say? Almost always, it's: Well, I've been really missing my partner, or I felt really disconnected and this is just the only way I know how to get his attention. So it's almost always, I don't want to say always. I've definitely had some clients try to argue that with: Well, no, I'm just angry. I'm like: Okay, you're just angry. So sometimes yes, of course it can be just anger. But I have often seen that when you really sit with that anger, it's almost like data. It's trying to tell you something. You're angry because of something else.

Yes, I agree. Sometimes it takes a little settling in and giving some space around the anger. So even if it's like, we had an agreement and you didn't follow through, I am angry and frustrated that I want be able to rely on you, I want to be able to trust you. Then deep underneath that is like, do you care about me, or are you with me? To your point, often we can distill it down to these very fundamental things. For me, it's often like, are we still connected? Or fear of abandonment, are we still good? Or am I okay? Am I good enough? Am I loved? That type of thing.

Okay. So as we're talking and you're helping people, and you're speaking about the couple dynamic, there's a process that you're describing, which is: begin to notice the trigger, be able to identify the emotion and what's happening underneath, which is all super key. I think having support to be able to do that is very, very helpful, to have space held, to be able to just query that. And you're saying we could do that individually and in couplehood. I just want to reference the story you had shared about with your son and his frustration. You were saying: I wasn't emotionally invested, so it was easier to hold space for him and see him and just be with him. I think, I don't know if you would agree, but I think that also is true in intimate relationship, in a marriage or a couple, where we could perhaps notice our partner is having strong feelings, and perhaps it's not directed at us.

But we always think it is.

Well, we do think it is. But there are occasions where they've had a hard day, and they're like: Oh, I can do this, I can hold space. But it gets really entangled when it does feel personal, which I would say the majority of the time is. But to just distinguish, like: Oh, I can hold space if you're upset with your mother or your boss or your employees, or whatever it is. Would you agree?

Absolutely, I'm so glad you mentioned that. I often relate the things I do with my child, with the parent and child relationship in couples. Because I think our own inner children are just showing up in our marriage, we're trying to recreate familiar patterns. All of that is so present. So, often with the parent and child dynamic, it also becomes very personal many times. And if you step back and look at it, it's the silliest. Because it's a 4-year-old. He doesn't have an agenda against you. He's not doing things on purpose. His prefrontal cortex is not developed. Logically, we know that. But when you're in it, and it's morning and you're trying to get out the door, and they're just stalling their way out the door. You're like, you are doing this on purpose, you have something! So we take it so personally.

Now in adult relationships, same concept happens. We take those little comments, we take that glare, we take that action, as something personal. And most of the time, actually when you take a step back and you look at it, it's not personal. Maybe it's a trigger from the past. Maybe it's something about past family dynamic being recreated in marriage. Maybe it's a hard day at work. Your partner comes home and they're upset, and you immediately go: What did I do, why are you mad? You're not happy to see me. Why didn't you say hi to me? So it becomes so personal. 

Instead, if we were to approach that with curiosity and would say: How was your day? I notice you seem a little off, what's happening? Just that distinction, I think, would save a lot of relationships from going into the cycle of personalizing everything that happens. Listen, I'm human, it happens to me too. But I think the more aware of it you become, and the more you practice that kind of cognitive reprocessing of what's happening and pausing, you're able to get to a place where not every single time you're going to say, that's against me.

It's so quick and habitual. If we can suspend a little bit of that automatic tendency, there's a lot more here to gain, and a lot more opportunity for connection.

Absolutely, yes.

It reminds me, I was sharing on an interview not so long ago, it was probably several months ago though. It was in the winter, and my husband had a cold or some type of under the weather. We were at the dining room table and I was sharing something with him, and he was turned away. Like, I was talking to him, and he was turned away. I'm like, is he not interested? Of course, my thoughts away were like: Is he upset with me? Is he not enjoying what I'm talking about? And it's continuing for many, many, many minutes, and I queried it. I had the judgements and the perceptions. But then I queried it, and he was like: Oh, I just don't want to breathe on you. So really, he was being thoughtful of me and considerate, but I also was perceiving it as all the questions around the negative.

Like, partner comes in upset face, the brain is like typing up or writing up a whole narrative of why they're upset, before you even have a chance to say: Hey, what's going on? The brain says, be upset with him, be mad.

The protection: armor up and defend and be ready, or take issue with the mood and the attitude that's coming in. So help us here, if we can tie this back with emotional flooding. You help a lot with helping people identify when it's happening, how it manifests, and we're talking about these exchanges where we can perceive and interpret a lot of negative cues or negative meaning. You're saying if we can have awareness around the triggers, identify the emotion, the underlying need or feeling. Can you help us with what this is? Is it just simply pausing and suspending that narrative and that judgment? How do people recognize emotional flooding?

I think after you identify the physical symptoms that happen—maybe it's your heart racing, maybe you feel hot, maybe you get red. Once you know the physical symptoms, it's easier to identify: Okay, my body is going into that place. I often help couples create some sort of an exit strategy. But it's talked about beforehand, so both people know what's happening. The person who gets emotionally flooded, the second they notice those physical symptoms, can say: Hey, I am getting really triggered, I'm feeling my body go to that place. I'm going to take a walk for five minutes, and I'm going to come back, and let's discuss this further. So the person is exiting to regulate themselves, they're gathering their thoughts together, hopefully turning some of that logical part of the brain on, and they're giving a time in which they'll come back. So letting the other person know, I'm not just abandoning you and running away from this, I will get back to you.

Five minutes actually, I don't know why I said five minutes, that's very little. I think most of us need a lot more time than that. But be reasonable. It could look like a night to sleep on it and get up in the morning and feel maybe a little bit different. But I would say a night is the most it should take. It shouldn't take three days to do this. Because if you really sit with the information and the data that your body is giving you, often what happens is you realize some of that information of: Oh, this isn't about my partner at all, this is because I'm stressed about money. Or this is because what my partner did actually reminded me of what I felt like as a kid. So suddenly you realize there's nothing they can do, and this is all of your stuff showing up.

Oh my goodness. There's two things that you're saying that I find to be very helpful, which is to have this almost agreement or discussion ahead of time so that there's a real understanding. It's almost as if, whatever that language is that's communicated in the moment around: I am feeling triggered, I'm going to do the thing we talked about doing. It's almost as if, if we're using the language that you've been describing around flooding and what that represents, it's almost as if I've lost my bearings. Or something is interfering here that I recognize is taking me out of connection with you, and I am feeling the interference or the distraction of that, and I would like to calibrate so that I can connect with you and actually be more present. I mean, that's kind of what we're saying.

Yeah, absolutely. Look, some of the physical stuff that happens, again, relating it to children, but I don't know when this hitting starts, of kids doing this with their hands, maybe one-and-a-half, where they test you to see what they can do with their hands. I remember the first time my son almost smacked me on my face, I was like: Whoa, where is this coming from? Even now, as much as I'm trying to teach him about how to emotionally regulate, his innate (in him internally) reaction is, when he's frustrated, if I'm too close to him, he might push me away. It's like a physical thing. I've always found that so fascinating because he's never seen that, especially before he started school. It's not like he's seeing other kids do that. It's something internally that, as you said, genetically with our DNA, it's been passed down. So we have to retrain our kids. And imagine, we're already way too deep into this ourselves, we have to retrain our brain to not do that when we get triggered.

Yeah, so we almost really need more collective support around how to navigate this, and that we can benefit from a lot more systems in place to support this. Look, I would say even adults, when we're stressed and things are really tense, or resources are scarce or something, we all have the propensity to be aggressive and competitive. So really, this lives in us. It is these tendencies.

So the other thing I wanted to comment about, as far as the exit strategy, that what you're describing isn't an invitation to ruminate or to go into a downward spiral. You're saying, as you said a little bit ago, if we can have a little bit of meta-cognition, thinking about our thinking, or have some other part—this is maybe where the IFS comes in, Internal Family System—a wiser part, a more grounded part.

The self.

Yeah, the self, or the prefrontal cortex, the logical thinking. That can we look at this? Can we query: Okay, so what might be happening here? I had a strong reaction, and not to get stuck into the narrative and dig deeper into the narrative.

Don't text your friend that's going to say: Oh yeah, you should be mad. Because that's not helpful.

Right, what a jerk.

Do you find that there's a learning curve to this? Because as we just said, we maybe didn't grow up with this structure, this support, it's not maybe modeled in friendships or family. Yeah. That if we're trying to implement a new way of showing up for this flooding or the triggers, both with ourselves and our immediate family and our children, what does this look like as far as getting on the path of learning here? I know sometimes it's like one step forward, two step forward, one step back, those type of things. But do you find that people have to get a couple of repetitions and feel some relief and a different experience, to then feel a little bit more motivated to practice this? Tell me how you see this with your clients.

It's like learning a new road you've never taken to go home. It's going to take time. Not using a map, not using Waze, being just lost. Trusting maybe an instinct, maybe a map you've seen once and not having it in front of you. That's what it feels like. But eventually, you're going to find this new road to home and learn that. So I think a lot of it is learned behavior, so we have to unlearn it. I always say, have some grace for yourself. It's been decades that you've known to take this one road or one path, and now you're unlearning all of that and now learning this completely new road.

I love that analogy. Not only are we coming home, but we are unfamiliar. It is totally new territory, and what that feels like in the body, rather than being able to do it automatically without even thinking. Like, I got home and I wasn't even aware that I was driving, hopefully we're not doing that too much.

Yeah, but a lot of that happens, disassociating because it's so habitual. So doing something new takes practice, and you're going to mess up. I always say, I think this generation of thinkers has it really difficult. Because we were raised one way, but now we're trying to change us and our children. So we're in a very difficult spot to be in.

Totally. Part of my question around culture, with making room to process and making space for a different way of being with emotions or the emotional flooding, is that perhaps we can speak into it in couplehood or in family. But this is tricky territory, because it could also look like weaponizing or blaming, like: Oh, you're flooded, you need to do something. Kind of that blame. So what does this look like in practice as you help people develop more pattern or dynamic for this?

Well, the framework I use for couples, Emotionally Focused Therapy, it's that there's this infinity loop. There is no one person, one identified patient per se. There is two people who are creating this loop. So when I act this way, then you act this way, then I say this, and then you do this. It's really a loop, and part of the work we do is identifying that negative cycle they're stuck in. What happens when I get emotionally flooded? Oh, you shut down. And when you shut down, what do you feel, and then what do you do? I mean, it's just so fascinating to dissect the cycle and have them become aware of it. Then the next session they'll come in and they'll say, we noticed we were going into the cycle, so we put a brake and we thought about it for a few minutes, and we came back and we tried to handle it differently. That's where the real beauty happens, for sure.

Okay. So in some ways, using the EFT principles, you're saying with that roadmap, and as we're referencing, I'll make sure that's on today's show notes for people to reference. When you're helping people identify their tendencies, likely that is the signpost. So I get critical, or I get intellectual and I want to ask questions, and I get very attorney-like. Or I start to get quiet, I start to back away, I start to shut down. So these are perhaps ways in which someone can recognize: Oh, I might be feeling things that I wasn't aware of because I'm doing these things that are my tendencies, or my system knows. Then as we look at the couple dynamic, like: Oh, my moves, what I tend to do, are in service of me feeling more protection, but also sometimes a protest. I'm seeking something, like you said, I have an underlying need, and it speaks a different language and lands with my partner in a different way.

So being able to unpack that, so the couple together can identify. So to answer your response to my question, as a couple, we can look at: Oh, we're doing the thing, or we're in that cycle. So it's not like: Oh, you're flooded, you should take an exit. It's more of like: Oh, we're off-track here, I think we're doing what we tend to do that gets us into disconnection. Is that right?

Yes, you nailed it.

Yeah, it's huge. Perhaps, one of the things I think you help people do is be able to see this coming down the road. It's not just like: Oh, we've reached a threshold and now we can call it. There's signs of this early, or there's different stages at which someone can call this. Can you say a little bit more about that, as far as being off-track or in that emotionally flooded (state)? They might be able to see signs of emotional flooding starting to happen, maybe before it reaches that boiling point or that point of like: Ah okay, we're doing the thing, it's alive and well, and it's right here.

Yes. I think curiosity, again, instead of personalizing. It's about getting curious and asking your partner: I noticed that maybe you have been more shut down, or I'm noticing that you've been a little more disconnected, or I'm noticing that you're on edge a little bit. What's going on? Instead of what usually happens, partner gets emotionally flooded, then the other partner gets shutdown or withdraws, and then they create this cycle. So I think just catching that and getting curious about it is a good step.

Yes. I think the way we're describing this is that the invitation or the opportunity is that one partner or an individual can be curious about their own state. Ooh, I notice I'm a little tight, or I notice I'm getting defensive, or I notice I'm feeling frustrated. There can be wonderment about what might be going on individually. Then also, if you recognize your partner on the outside looks frustrated or looks upset—to your point, they come home and they look unhappy—that we can be curious about that. We can have perceptions and meaning-making about it, but it's likely going to be wrong, to your point.

Okay. As one can start to notice and identify, one of the things you're saying is curiosity. And also, you described the exit plan or the exit strategy, if that's being able to implement with a lot of care and kindness so that it gives the opportunity to come back with a fresh start. One of the things you mentioned is emotional regulation and being able to utilize some of that. Would you like to say some of your best tips or recommendations around that?

To take it further and deeper, I would really encourage clients to write down some of this, whether it's in your phone you're typing up, if that's more successful, or a notebook you get to write in. When you write something or when you type it up, and your brain has the opportunity to see it, it has a different way of processing that information than all of it being up here in your mind. That's another trick to get that logical part of the brain to start as well. So to turn the logical part of the brain on, writing does that. So I think that's a really great tip.

Of course, breathing and becoming really grounded, that's a helpful tip. If you're outside, noticing the trees around you, the sounds, the sensations, anything to get you from your mind into just the present moment. Then to take that further, then turning that logical part of the brain on by writing or really sitting with the information and getting curious.

I love all of those recommendations. I can feel inside myself, just being able to stay with it, to not bypass it. That there's really important information, that there's a reason that I'm feeling so activated. And if I can connect with the deeper core, that that's going to give me some real ability to support that vulnerable part to get those needs met. So it doesn't have to be such an opened wound. I can actually start some healing process with that curiosity, it's so helpful.

Then, I also agree with the mindfulness and being embodied and breathing, just how that really gives a lot of signal to the nervous system, to be able to calm, to be more present, to feel more resourced. And then, I have found so much value, whether or not it's handwriting or typing, that not only am I getting my story out, which feels helpful, but it helps me get to some deeper places that I don't know that I would get to if I hadn't done it. Then the other thing I'll just comment on is, when we were speaking earlier about meta-cognition or having another part being able to see, there's a little bit more perspective or witness-taking. So it's almost like I'm getting it out of me, which is therapeutic, and then I can also see it from a different angle, which can be also very supportive and helpful. So thank you for those tips.

I know we're winding down, and you had mentioned that you do a lot of the perinatal therapy. Can you say a little bit more about what that is for people who are pregnant and are interested in just getting more support?

Yeah, of course. I think postpartum depression is something that a lot of people hear about, but it really doesn't just pertain to postpartum, meaning the period of after-birth. But it can happen when a mom is expecting and in her pregnancy, it can happen early on, in the middle of pregnancy, end of pregnancy. Feelings can show up, and not just feelings of depression, but also anxiety. So usually, I get the call six weeks postpartum. If they go to their OB-GYN and they get to share how they're feeling, usually I get the call then. 

But my passion is to get this conversation started before birth, because I think there's just so much there that until we learn about it, we might not know. Doesn't mean that we're going to have a successful postpartum, that's not guaranteed. But just having the tools and the information beforehand, knowing how your partner can show up for you, knowing what your self-care needs are, knowing how to ask for help. I mean, there's just so much that I'm really passionate about teaching expecting parents to know. So then once they're in it, they can hopefully remember some of this and implement it. And they're not scrambling to find a therapist, they can just reach out and say: Hey, I really need help. The thing we talked about, it's happening.

Yeah, no kidding. And what a beautiful time to go inward a little bit more and look at the areas, if there is recognition of: I tend to get a little bit more sensitive about this, or I have a hotspot about that. And to query, have that space held, that curiosity, to really understand more deeply those deeper places. So that there’s an opportunity to reprocess and perhaps metabolize that. But also, how to be with that in a different way, that they're now able to parent from a different place. Rather than, as you said, instead of reacting, being able to respond. So if I can know that this is a place inside me, I can hold that and be with that differently, and see it if it comes up when I'm parenting or I'm relating to my spouse or my significant other. That is going to be qualitatively different.

Yeah. The IFS work, I really love, when I work with moms—not just new moms, but moms in general. Because when you're parenting, a lot of your own inner child stuff comes up. It really does. So it's kind of like healing that inner child, so then you can parent differently.

Lovely. Well, I so appreciate just how real you are, and also how informed you are and how much training you have and experience to be able to guide people through these very difficult places to more healing and health. How do you suggest people reach out to you if they want to get more support with you?

Sure. So I see clients from my office in Sherman Oaks, California, as well as virtually across California. You can find me on my website, TherapyWithGayane.com, and my Instagram, @TherapyWithGayane. I actually have a resource right now that I just came out with, a workbook. It's something very short, something you can do, take the time to fill it out yourself. But it's for expecting moms, preparing for the postpartum period. Like I said, I'm just really passionate about starting that conversation early on.

Wonderful! Well, I will definitely be referring that. I’ll make sure to put that link. Is there a link?

Yeah.

Okay, I’ll put that on today’s show notes, and your Instagram, as well as your website, for people who are wanting to work with you. Thank you for your ability to share so much with us here today.

Thank you so much for having me.

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