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We've all been there—feeling misunderstood, hurt, or betrayed by those closest to us, which can lead to bottled-up resentment or explosive outbursts. But what if anger wasn't just a destructive force, but a powerful signal pointing us toward deeper healing and understanding? Let's dive into how embracing and channeling our anger can transform our relationships and emotional well-being.

In this episode, we explore how viewing emotional experiences as a spectrum can unlock the door to more genuine vulnerability and meaningful connections. Techniques from the attachment EFT framework will guide you in expressing your deepest feelings in constructive ways. We'll also delve into understanding anger as both a primary and secondary emotion, uncovering its roots in betrayal and rejection, and offering practical exercises to help you process and validate your emotions. By the end, you'll have tangible tools and insights to nurture healthier, more empathetic relationships, while fostering continuous personal growth.

Bronwyn Schweigerdt is a licensed psychotherapist, podcaster, and anger expert. She has a master's in counseling and another master's in nutrition.

In this episode

07:14 Understanding the spectrum of emotional experiences and their impact on relationships.

10:31 Understanding anger: Primary vs. secondary emotions.

12:49 The importance of recognizing and constructively expressing anger before it builds up to an outburst.

16:08 How to discern safe individuals from unsafe ones based on their response to feedback or emotional vulnerability.

21:48 How past betrayals and childhood experiences influence adult emotional responses.

30:42 Exploring the connections between anger, betrayal, and healing in adult relationships.

42:41 Distinguishing personal triggers from external behaviors.

45:04 Strategies for supporting a partner who is expressing anger but may not be using it as an opportunity for self-awareness or growth.

48:45 Exploring self-discovery: Insights from the podcast Angry at the Right Things.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Reflect on your emotions daily, especially anger, without judgment.
• Use attachment EFT techniques to share your vulnerabilities with a trusted person.
• Always acknowledge others' feelings to show empathy and support.
• Protect your emotional health by setting clear boundaries in your relationships.
• Address specific triggers and underlying emotions when expressing anger.
• Recognize and explore personal triggers for opportunities to heal.
• Reflect on emotional responses to understand underlying reasons like rejection or betrayal.
• Apply exercises to become your own attachment figure and address childhood issues.

Mentioned

Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication

Connect with Bronwyn Schweigerdt

Websites: angryattherightthings.podbean.com

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About this Episode

Bronwyn, thank you so much for joining us today. I am excited about our conversation.

You're welcome, Jessica. I am too.

Excellent. We're going to be talking about anger as it shows up in relationship, and I know there's many dimensions to this. Before we get into our topic, is there anything you want to share about where you're coming from, and anything you want listeners to know about you?

Yeah, so I'm a licensed psychotherapist. My expertise is on anger, and that is due to my own journey. Not only my own anger, but as a therapist, my own therapeutic journey. I didn't go looking to become a therapist, this is a second career for me. I have a first master's degree in nutrition, and I was very happy to work in that field. But I fell into a very severe depression myself and desperately needed a therapist, and desperately couldn't find a good one and tried multiple. This is back when it was mostly in-person, maybe 15 years ago or so. Every time, I would be sitting in the client's seat and I would think to myself: You know, Bronwyn, you're barely functioning right now, but I still think you would make a better therapist to you than this person.

So part of my journey out of that depressive episode, and I did have another one after that that was also very severe, but part of my healing process was going back to school and becoming a therapist and getting those 3,000 hours. But in retrospect, that depressive episode and the subsequent one, that were very severe, were actually symptoms. I see depression as a symptom of suppressed anger, or what we can call disassociated anger, with my clients that I see now. They'll say: Yeah, I kind of started feeling depressed Saturday, I don't know what's going on. I'll say, well, who betrayed you on Saturday? Oh well, yeah, my husband. Okay, well let's talk about that, because it sounds like you've got some anger that you're not associating with.

So what our anger wants to do is move us forward with assertiveness usually, or boundaries, or accountability. Not to become a monster and just rage, because we all think of that when we think of an angry person. So when we dissociate from that, they stagnate in our body. Our anger stagnates in our body, and we feel depressed, or a lot of people just feel anxious or a combination of the two. Some people have panic attacks. I like to call them anger attacks, because they're dissociated anger causing the panic. So that's where I come from in my expertise.

Oh my goodness, thank you so much for just sharing a little bit about your personal journey and what prompted your second career. If I'm hearing you, Bronwyn, it sounds as though you're really holding anger in this way that is a signpost, or it's a real positive indicator to create a lot of health and wellness for that experience. I think, not to genderize, but I often feel like, stereotypically, women struggle to acknowledge or come into contact with anger, and that it is internalized or not felt. So if I'm understanding you, you're really trying to invite more space for anger. Is that right? Am I hearing you?

Yeah, it's really healing our relationship with our anger. Because we all have anger. So I hate the term angry person, because I'm like: Well, that's like saying a breathing person. He's a breathing person. Like, okay, good to know. We all have anger, of course we do. We're all human. It's about our relationship with our anger. And to heal our relationship with anger, like you're insinuating, the first step is to say: admitting having anger doesn't make me a monster. It doesn't make me shameful. It's just anger, and it is like a barometer for myself of like, something is wrong. I like to say it's like a light on the dashboard of our emotional car saying: Check under the hood, something's off, and it needs repair. So if we can start to change how we see anger.

Anger doesn't equal blowing up and being violent, or verbally violent. It doesn't need to at all. In fact, the people who blow up usually are the people who are suppressing, suppressing, suppressing, until they get to the place where they're blowing up. So if we can just feel the anger in our body say: Ooh, I feel right here in my chest, I'm feeling angry. And do that attunement, self-attunement or self-validation, and say: You know what, you are entitled to feel that. It doesn't mean you're a bad person. It doesn't mean this other person is an all-bad person. It just means something right now between us is off, and needs to be restored or repaired in some way.

Okay, I just want to go back a moment, as you were describing that what you're really after is to support our relationship with anger. I'm so grateful. Because even as I framed the gender piece, I just think for any human that has learned anger is not okay to be expressed, that it could be internalized. Help me, that you were saying anger for some isn't the first visible emotion or the first visible or conscious felt sense. It could be depression. It could be panic or anxiety. Is that right?

Absolutely. So my style of therapy is attachment, and I really see that we learn very early, in childhood, our relationship to our anger. And many of us have learned to disassociate from our anger because we learned that. During the terrible twos, when we start to differentiate, which is an actual phase of differentiation that kids should be able to go through, we learned that we get the silent treatment. To a little child, that is a type of abandonment. They cannot tolerate that, and they will do anything to shut. They will learn: anger equals abandonment. Even mom just not talking, or a change of voice that sounds less loving, more clinical, or less face contact, less eye contact. That child will learn right away. That's an imprint that creates a template that says: anger equals abandonment. We can't afford that. We're dependent on this attachment figure. So let's suppress the anger, and be little codependent pleasers for mom.

I mean, I'm laughing because of the languaging. But it's absolutely a part of the shaping and our real lived experience around what we get a sense of, or how we're responded to or not responded to. So I have a couple other orienting questions. One of which is, for the individual that perhaps doesn't acknowledge the anger, ignores it, but then it accumulates, and then it reaches a certain threshold and then you have an outburst or a rage. You've been super crystal clear, we can be constructive, and we can be destructive. So you're really being clear that having an outburst and being destructive, allowing anger to be destructive, isn't what we're looking at here or what we're promoting. Is that right?

Yeah. So a healthy relationship with our anger means that we perceive it in real-time, we know it's valid, and we learn to move it in a way that produces health. So for example, and I talked about this on my podcast, a few months ago, my husband and I were going out of town just for one night. So we decided, before we left, the Saturday morning, let's clean the whole house before we go. That way, when we come back Sunday night, we can just kick it, we can come back late, whatever. So it's like, I'm very productive. It's the morning, I want to get going. He's like: Yeah, that sounds good. And I look over, and he's still on his computer reading the newspaper. So I just say to him: Steve, I'm starting to feel resentful, because you're still on your computer and you said you'd do this. He goes: Oh, okay. So he shut his computer, and he gets up.

If I didn't do that, if I was not true to myself and my feelings in real-time, what I would've done is just said: You are not really angry, Bronwyn, you're not really resentful. You're fine, whatever. Then 10 minutes later, I might have blown up because he'd still be on the computer. That's not fair to him, and it's not fair to me. It's just unfair all around. It's a lose-lose. So if I can learn to be a grownup and use my words in real-time and say: I'm starting to feel resentful. That's exactly where I was. I was starting to feel resentful. So if I can learn to do that and be a safe person, then he can learn to not have to read between the lines. That's not fair to him either to expect him. If I started cleaning loudly, that's not fair to him to read between the lines.

Or have to endure an attack later, or the stymie, if you're on your trip now and have real issue.

Right. So it's a win-win when we can learn to use our words and not see anger as shameful or bad, but be honest in that moment. Now, my husband is a safe person. There are plenty of people who are not safe to say, I'm starting to feel resentment towards you right now, especially like a boss. Okay, we can't say that. But what do we do with an unsafe person? That's a different ballgame, I don't know if you want me to talk more about that.

Yeah, why not? I have a few more questions, but I'm going to hold them and listen and respond.

Okay. So actually, you can determine who's safe and who's not from their response. That's one way to know forever and never forget. So an unsafe person is someone you'd say, I'll give you an example, like my father. You know, dad, when you say that, it's really hurtful. Then he does like a DARVO. Are you familiar with DARVO? It stands for Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim & Offender. So a very common Hollywood trope would be, for a DARVO, he'd say: Well, I guess I'm just a horrible father. Now he's the victim, and I'm the offender suddenly. See how he did that. If it succeeds, that's an example of an unsafe person, because now they've become the victim. You were the original victim by trying to say: That's hurtful when you say that. But now they're the victim, and if they succeed in their DARVO attempt, now you're consoling or reassuring them, and they have successfully deflected and derailed the conversation away from what you were originally bringing up, which is that you were hurt. So that's a sign of an unsafe person, is how they respond.

So a safe person will say, for example, I'll give you an example of how I'll respond when my daughter who's 20 will tell me something she sees in me. It's not fun to hear, I'm not going to lie. But I'll say: You know, Edie, that's hard to hear, but I see where you're coming from. As much as I want to deny it right now, I know that you are experiencing that from me, so I'm going to think more about it and really reflect. Or I'll just apologize now, because I do see it.

We all fail each other. We all do. But if someone's not a safe person, they're not willing to be a human. They're going to defend, attack, and then reverse victim and offender status usually.

Yeah. Well, I'm appreciating your description of just us and our humanity, and that we're imperfect and we will hurt each other unintentionally. Then when you're talking about a consistent pattern of behavior, that to express vulnerability with that person likely isn't going to result to something constructive or creating more safety, and that it's probably wiser to recognize the limitation there and not pursue. Still set limits, but not try to engage in some type of understanding to really have repair or have real attunement there.

Because I tend to think of these things in more of a spectrum, not all or nothing, even if someone is a safe person. Because I can even feel like I do a lot around helping individuals express a little bit, from the attachment EFT framework of the deeper vulnerable thing. Like, I feel hurt, or I feel scared, or these type of things. Typically, that softens, and it's easier for the person on the receiving end to respond to.

But I appreciate your language too. Because I tend to steer away from claiming that was hurtful, because I could see somebody arguing with whether or not that statement was hurtful. But what you're really saying on the underneath is: I'm hurt, and I'm showing you, and this matters to me. Even as you respond to your daughter: It's hard to hear, I don't quite see it, let me reflect on it. You're really reframing it as: You're having an experience that I validate, but I can't quite respond to yet, or I can and I will. That there's just a real recognition of that experience. Is that right?

Yes. Because in doing so, let's say all I'm doing in the moment is saying: Edie, I hear how your experience of me is, and I want to think about that more. So what that is really saying, big picture, is: You matter to me, and your feelings matter. Even if I am not relating to your feelings, they still matter, because you matter. That, at the end of the day, is what we all need to do for each other, how we can all show up for each other. Maybe I do ponder it, and maybe I'm like, I still don't see it. But you know what, Edie, you matter. Even if I don't get it, I'm not going to say those things again, because I see how much it impacts you.

Yes, or even getting curious around: I've really reflected on this, and I'm still not quite sure I get it. Can I be curious? Would you be willing to share more? I'd like to see if I can understand more.

Sure. Because all of that says: You matter. So help me understand, I want to know you better. That all is what love entails.

Right, and the relationship around not only how we're being in relationship with our own anger, but in relationship, how we hold space and how we respond to others and their emotional world. 

Can I go back a minute?

Yeah.

Okay. So as you were talking about anger and how it presents itself, I hold both camps or schools of thought around anger being a secondary emotion, and also anger being a primary emotion. I know that anger can be incredibly motivating to bring awareness to: a boundary is being crossed, or there's an injustice or violation and we want to take action. I also know it can be a protective emotion when we feel hurt, scared, or sad or something. Would you be willing to speak to that at all?

Yeah, I do tend to see it as a secondary emotion. Because what I think is, mostly under the anger is betrayal. I mean the anger that impacts us the most, the anger that we disassociate from the most. We don't disassociate from the anger from the guy who cuts us off in the freeway. We feel the anger, because we've got nothing to lose with that relationship. But the people who are closest to us. The guy who cuts us off in the freeway isn't betraying us, we don't have expectations of him to live up to in our lives. We don't know him, he's a stranger. But the people closest to us, only they can betray us, because we have so much expectation on them to meet us where we're at.

So I'll go back to my depressive episode. So the first one that landed me as a therapist ultimately, we moved about an hour and a half away from where we live now. I didn't know anyone, and my husband just started working. I didn't have a job, actually I left my job, and my daughter was just school age at the time. So I was by myself all day, alone in this apartment, living somewhere that just felt like the dark side of the moon. Even though it was 90 miles away, it felt like a different planet to me. It was very lonely.

So one night, shortly after we moved, we had put our daughter down to sleep. It was just me and my husband, Steve. We were staying on the couch. I don't remember, this is, again, 15 years ago. I don't remember if I said, I think I did say something. But I remember feeling very vulnerable and looking at him, like I really wanted him to empathize for how lonely I felt. I don't remember if he said anything back, but I do remember the look on his face. He showed no empathy towards me.

Now we've talked about this since, and I do know the place he was coming from was how he was raised. Like, you just buck up, and he was really believing the old school belief that if I show her empathy, it's going to make her feel worse somehow, it's going to make her cry and feel sorry for herself, and things are just going to escalate. So if I withhold empathy, she's just going to power through it, and we can keep this thing on track. That is literally where he was coming from. He was not coming from a place of wanting to just withhold empathy from me, just for the sake of doing so. But in that moment when I needed him so much, I was so alone, and he was my attachment figure, it triggered Little Bronwyn whose mom withheld empathy from her and had the same look on her face throughout my life. It triggered me so much. That's when I went from just being lonely to the pit of depression.

During that time of depression, I actually was vomiting at random times, it was involuntary. Then also, I couldn't stop eating. I don't know how those two things happened to overlap, but they did. I couldn't stop eating, and I gained like 30 pounds in two months. It was crazy. I got plantar fasciitis because I gained so much weight so fast. It just became this hell nightmare for me. Looking back now, because my inner child was so triggered with the look on his face being an echo of what I had seen on my mom's face as my original attachment figure, I realized the reason for me feeling like I had a hole in my gut and not being able to stop eating day and night is because I did feel hollow inside. Because that's how I felt with my mom, hollow, like I've got nobody. That's why I couldn't stop eating. Then I also felt disgust, and disgust makes us vomit. So those two triggered feelings from my own childhood showed up in my adult life.

Looking back, it makes complete sense. I see it with a lot of my clients, they all feel the same way. So what I needed to do, and what I do now with my clients is, I lead them in an integration exercise with their inner child. I just call that integration exercise. We need to be that attachment figure for ourselves. Really, Steve is a great husband, he still has a hard time showing empathy and attuning to me because he's still working on that. But I know he wants to, I know his heart is to get better at that. But I need to be that for me. That way, when other people can't show up for me when I'm vulnerable and when I'm in a place like that, I can do that for myself consistently, and I don't feel hollow in my gut anymore. That way, whatever a friend or a spouse can give me is a bonus.

If I'm hearing you, Bronwyn, this was not all conscious as it was happening.

No, not at all.

I'm also saddened to hear that some of your experiences in the therapeutic space perhaps didn't assist in being able to bring awareness to this.

No, that felt like another betrayal actually, because I'm seeking out a professional to be that mirror. Because a good therapist is a mirror, and they will give you a true reflection of yourself and help you connect the dots. I couldn't find that either. So it felt even more hollow.

Wow, where did you get your bearings? This is quite profound what it activated in you on a very deep level, and also just the current attachment. I'm with you on the attachment system, that in adulthood, we see our romantic committed partner, and the nervous system responds with survival, but also echoes or mimics the system we learned early on. You had both being activated at the same time without even orientation around what was going on. If you're willing to share, how did you find your bearings?

No, I mean, it was chaotic for a while. I would vomit involuntarily when I walked down the street. It was so humiliating. People would just stare at me. I'd do it when I drove my car on the freeway. I'm telling you, it was like a hellish night mare for a few months. When I decided to go back to school, to another graduate program and get a master's in counseling psychology, I felt like I had a purpose, and I really needed that. I kind of had a community, and I really liked a lot of my fellow students and professors. So that gave me like a nest, if you will, and a sense of purpose and meaning. So that was very therapeutic for me, actually.

So, Bronwyn, if I'm hearing you, you were feeling these symptoms as you enrolled in the program, and then you felt some holding in the program. Then through your training and development, were able to apply some of these principles to your own process?

You know, they give you the basic theories, and you can kind of choose which theory. But some of them did apply, like I would say the inner child theory. But I didn't go deep then, it kind of was just a holding place for me. It wasn't until I went through my second depressive episode.

Yeah, you were able to get stabilized. But perhaps the deeper work to look at this in a deeper way or deeper layers, it sounds like that really happened in the second episode.

Yeah, in retrospect, everything in retrospect. Humans, we learn in retrospect, and that's okay. Then having my own clients and seeing their own journeys. But yeah, that depression really is, just like anxiety, it's disassociated anger from betrayal. So I would say, underneath the anger is betrayal or feelings of abandonment, which I don't really see as different, or rejection.

Yes, I'm getting that from you. I've never heard this frame before so clearly, around the betrayal or the severing, or the perception of break of that bondedness or that attachment secure function. That whether or not one is feeling abandoned, or not feeling good enough, or feeling inadequate or alone, essentially you're distilling them to the betrayal or the experience of betrayal.

Betrayal, or rejection, which is a type of betrayal. But I'll tell you right now, I am writing my next podcast notes. Even in today, I have a hard time when it's silent with other people present. So I'm fine with silence on my own. Well, I'm not fine, but I can do it. But in the presence of other people, it feels like rejection to me, and I'm starting to realize where that's all coming from. Again, early childhood. I think all of our triggers are really rooted in some kind of rejection, which is the same. Again, it's overlapping with betrayal or abandonment. Those are all different facets of the same diamond, really. So just learning about ourselves, knowing our triggers, and then integrating with our inner children to heal that, and to heal our relationship with us.

If I might ask, did you feel more supported in your second experience with depression?

No.

Wow, what a journey for you to negotiate this and to really find! I mean, it seems like you really have a system that allowed you to really have clarity around what was getting brought up and activated, and to work with it differently to reparent, to really help show up for yourself in this way to have some attachment healing. Is that right?

Yeah. Again, the second one was very, very severe. Not as symptomatic physically, but it went on for a long time. I really felt like I lost myself for a while. But when I came out of that, it was like I started seeing everything. Like, oh! I was depressed because, it started with a supervisor, where I was an intern, wanting me to have my first client be a couple. So I'm like: I can't do that, this is going to be my first client ever. He is like: Yeah, you're going to do that. And what I should have done, instead of disassociating from my anger, which I didn't feel entitled to feel angry and say: Well, you know what, Dave, if you want me to do that, then this is not the right placement for me, because I'm not going to do that, because I don't feel comfortable with that.

But I didn't do that. I wasn't assertive. With him, even though he wasn't that much older than me, I was trying to win his approval, and I was projecting my daddy issues onto him and trying to make him think I'm amazing. So I didn't allow myself to be served and say: You know what, maybe this isn't a good fit for me then. If I had done that, I would not have fallen into the depressive episode that I did, because it just spiraled. Because I did see the couple, and I did a horrible job. I knew I was doing a horrible job, because I didn't know what I was doing, and I didn't feel entitled to it.

And you didn't want to do it, and you didn't feel comfortable doing it.

So I betrayed myself. When we don't allow ourselves to be moved by the anger into a healthy, productive way by saying: You know what, I'm going to have a boundary, this isn't going to work. Then we betray ourselves. So I betrayed myself by staying at that placement, and then I betray myself by seeing this couple, doing a horrible job. I was just in a spiral of self-betrayal, and that just takes you down, down, down.

Wow, I appreciate you just articulating how damaging this can be and what it can activate. Because as I was talking about, stereotypically, female internalizing anger, disassociating from anger. I also know, stereotypically, and I know this isn't true and I don't want to genderize it specifically, because I think people all across the board can experience this. But for the one that is a little more, stereotypically, I've had guests on the show talk about the men's experience of the narrow window of masculine permission for emotion is angry or horny. And often, like you said, what's underneath the anger is a lot more, whether or not it's a betrayal or hurt or sad or grieving or something.

So what I'm hearing you describe, in the way that you're helping us here today, is that there's so much to be learned about anger and what is happening underneath, and the betrayal or whatever the experience is, that that is the focus. If one is used to being angry and maybe not getting in touch with what's underneath, or not necessarily relating to their anger, they're just blowing off steam in different ways. Is that right?

Yeah, that is really a sign of health when we can go under the anger and say, I'm actually angry. So for example, I'll give you another example. So when my daughter was still living at home, because I have a hard time with the silence, and I don't know if you can relate to this, but I know other people can. I will find myself, just by default, asking people a lot of questions. I realized this, that's actually a way for me to feel more comfortable so I don't have to endure the silence that feels like rejection to me, because of my own early childhood. So I started asking her all these questions one day over lunch period. She didn't want to answer them. So then, we got in a fight. Anyway, when I calmed down, I came upstairs, and later I was reflecting back, why did I get so angry about her not answering my questions? I started connecting all these dots. Oh my God, I'm really triggered by silence. That was actually the day that I realized I'm triggered by silence.

So I was like, that's my trigger. That's not Edie's problem. That's a me problem, and I need to learn to be okay with silence in her presence. If she wants to be silent, that's not a her problem. That's a me problem that I am activated by that silence, and I need to be responsible for that. I told her that, and I wrote her a letter and I said: I'm so sorry, that's a me problem. I'm alone responsible for my trigger, and I'm sorry I've put that on you. That was actually part of healing our own relationship, was me admitting that issue and being more reflective and owning that.

Wow, I'm really moved, as you describe your ability and your choice to pause, to really have inquiry around what's getting activated, and what that can show and teach and what's there. It sounds like this has been a huge part of your process and also healing, and also your way that you help others in their healing. Am I hearing that right?

Yeah. So I'm writing notes for my next podcast, like I said, and a lot of therapists unfortunately just teach you to manage triggers. But to me, triggers are, like Freud said, dreams are the road to the unconscious or whatever. Triggers are the roadmap to our early childhood, our inner child experiences. I tell my clients, let's see triggers as an opportunity to heal our relationship with our inner child. So for me, it's like Little Bronwyn is telling me when it's silent with other people around. She's saying: This was really hurtful to me really early on, and I'm trying to communicate that to you. I want you, Adult Bronwyn, to hear me and hear my experience, and to validate it and to understand, so we can heal.

Yes, that you're able to use these triggers as entry points to be able to do this healing work, to do the opportunity. To look at these experiences where we have felt injury, we have felt trauma or wound, and to be able to show up for those parts that are sending signals. If we can turn towards that, there's such an opportunity to show up for those parts in really powerful ways.

Yeah. Because that's when I can say: Okay, Little Bronwyn, when your mom was silent in your presence all the time, it did feel like rejection. And guess what, it actually was. And you know what, Little Bronwyn? I need you to know, that was not a you problem. That was a her problem, and you can feel angry at that. So when you're around other people and it's silent, sometimes it's rejection, sometimes they're just silent. But if it is rejection, you can know that it's a them problem too.

Yeah. I wonder through this, if there's an ability or an aspect of holding the hand of the young one. Like, I've got you, I hear you, I see you. This wasn't responded to, or this wasn't attended to in the past. So that ability to validate, as you said, and really have it be seen and important, and then also supporting to get the need met.

Yeah, exactly. So once we can start to be that attachment figure for ourselves, self-attune and validate those feelings. But also, with our adult knowledge, that wasn't a you problem, and that was wrong, and we can feel anger now. You're not shameful. You're not unlovable. You're not unwanted. That was a Mom problem. She didn't see you as lovable and wanted. But that's on her. And you know what, Little Bronwyn? I want you, and I love you, and I approve of you.

Yes, and I've got you, I'm with you. I have two questions. I'm looking at our time and I'm like, wow, time is flying by. I wanted to ask you two things. One is, you talked about learning to have a relationship with your anger in a constructive way. Are we talking about it or is there anything else? Because it sounds like you're encouraging the anger to be seen and be held, and you're also asking: Can we go deeper than that? Can we look at where is there a betrayal? Is there anything you wanted to speak to that we haven't spoken about or you haven't mentioned, as it relates to constructively, having a better, healthier relationship with anger?

Yeah. So sometimes, our partner is going to do things that are objectively infuriating. Sometimes we're going to have our own triggers, that we're reading between the lines. So when it's silent, I read between the lines that I am not feeling loved in that moment. So that's a me problem. Sometimes, Steve is really being, objectively, a douchebag. How do you know? Well, the goal is to live in reality. So the goal is to be able to heal our relationship with ourselves and our anger. We're never going to get it perfect. But to come more and more to a place of like: Oh actually, no, this is me, and maybe this is a me and you combo right now, and maybe this is all you. Just to live in that human place where we're living in reality, in the present, and we're healing our relationship with our inner child, so we can live in reality in the present and not bring the past into the present, unaware.

Yeah, thank you for speaking into that. My experience with this is that when I'm super charged, super reactive, that's a pretty good indication that I'm rattled, something is coming up for me, and I'm feeling a trigger and it has significance for me personally. It's a me problem. Then there are other times that I'm like: Hmm, I do not like that, and I don't have to deal with it. I'm just going to walk away, and that's kind of a you problem. So it feels qualitatively very, very different. Not to say that when I'm assigning that as a you problem, I don't have a part in that. But the rattle and the activation is very different.

Yeah, that's a good point. I agree with that.

Okay. My other question has to do with, on the receiving end, being in relationship and witnessing, or what looks like, on the outside, anger in the significant other. They don't appear to be using it as an opportunity, or to bring more awareness or consciousness to that anger and what's getting triggered there. What would you suggest and help people or support people with negotiating that?

Yeah. So if you think your partner is being triggered, in other words?

Like, your partner is angry, and they don't appear to be using it in a constructive way, to understand what's going on for them, and you're contending with their anger.

Yeah. So I would start with: You know, Jessica, I hear how angry you are right now. And you know what, I get it. What I said, I can see how you took it the wrong way or whatever. I can see that. So I'd start with just validating, I'd name the feeling. I'm hearing that you're frustrated with me. I validate it, and that usually calms the brain. It calms the limbic brain. Let's say you're my partner, so I'm talking to you. Then let's say you're like: Yeah, I am really angry. I say: Okay, tell me more, tell me what makes you the most angry about what I just said or did. Help me understand. Maybe you're like, well. Then it comes down to, I'm looking for some kind of rejection or betrayal. That's what I'm always looking for.

So if I can hear you out now and I know what I'm looking for. Oh well, you thought I was flirting with that guy or whatever, I could see how. So now I can name that, and I can say: Well, yeah, I can see how that guy was really attractive, and I could see how that would be hard for you to see me being really friendly with him. So we just validate it, and then that gives the partner some self-awareness. Maybe he's able to talk about: Yeah, I do feel kind of threatened when there's guys that actually look just like me, like I did 20 years ago, and you're talking to them or whatever. So there's more insight there, and there's more of a conversation.

Okay, great. So you could be a support to really have curiosity around what's underneath the anger, the betrayal specifically, with some attention and focus.

Rejection and betrayal.

Yeah, rejection and betrayal. So, so helpful. I can recognize inside myself, that the rattle of my reaction, I grew up with some pretty big volatile expressions of anger. So my system doesn't always feel safe, and I've worked a lot on that, and to just have a frame around that. I do, but I haven't had this specific one around rejection and betrayal. I've just been like: Oh, you're having feelings, you're having big feelings. Can I learn about that? If I'm in a regulated enough place, I can be curious about what my partner is feeling. But having that specific focus of rejection and betrayal, that seems really helpful.

It's a helpful lens to have.

Yes. So is there anything else that you wanted to talk about? I know you mentioned shame, that's something you speak a lot about. That could probably be a whole other episode.

Yeah, but I do talk a lot about that in my podcast.

Okay, excellent. Well, talk a little bit about your podcast, and where people can find what you're speaking about and teaching.

Yeah, so I have 21 episodes now, they're all about an hour. They're me and my co-host, Katie, who is my best friend. She's not a therapist, so she kind of represents the listener more, and she is on the codependent spectrum, which most of the listeners are. Most people who seek out therapy are on the codependent spectrum. So a lot of my clients will be like, I love Katie. They'll tell me that. I do too. But anyway, we just talk about these things, like I said, shame, triggers, anger. Borderline personality disorder, there's lots of that, and that's really important. DARVO, like what we brought up before. So go deep into all that, unpack it. So the podcast is just for anyone who wants to hear more about these things. Really, the goal is to help people who are not going to be my client, to learn these principles that they can do for themselves. So I lead Katie in the integration exercise. A lot of these exercises, I'll lead her on, so the listener can do it for themselves. That's the goal.

Aha, there's an experiential piece.

Yeah, there is a lot of that. The goal is maybe to bypass therapy altogether if we don't feel like we're getting our needs met in therapy, which unfortunately, a lot of people don't. So I think that is absolutely possible. It's called Angry at the Right Things, that's the name of my podcast. It's found wherever you subscribe to your podcasts.

Angry at the Right Things, I really love that. I also imagine that it could be even helpful for therapists listening, or people in the helping profession, to be able to listen, to be able to recognize.

Yeah. So I have one client, she's an intern therapist, and she's like: I'm doing the integration exercises with my clients, I just want you to know, and they're going great. I'm like, that's awesome! I don't want to trademark it, I want everyone to do it for themselves. If you're in the healing arts at all, in the therapeutic world, use the integration exercises. That's what I do for me even now, and they really work, they're really powerful.

That's wonderful. So you have your podcast. Is there anything else you want to direct people towards? It sounds like you work with clients, if people are in California.

Yeah. I mean, I mainly just take insurance. I do have some private pay, so they can seek me out as well.

Okay, anything else you want to comment on that you want people to know about?

Wonderful! Thank you so much for everything you've shared with us here today.

You're welcome. Thank you, Jessica.

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