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Have you ever found yourself in the heat of an argument, only to later regret words spoken in anger? Or perhaps you have felt a simmering resentment beneath the surface, unable to express it constructively.

Anger can be like a storm, sudden and tumultuous. It’s a potent emotion that, when mismanaged, can wreak havoc on even the most loving relationships. Anger is often seen as the villain, but beneath it lies a complex tapestry of emotions that, when understood, can lead to healthier and more fulfilling relationships.

In this episode, we delve into strategies for managing anger and improving communication in relationships. You'll learn how to identify the warning signs of anger, take constructive time-outs, and engage in active listening to better understand your partner's perspective. Additionally, we explore the underlying emotions that often fuel anger and discuss how awareness and empathy can help break the cycle of conflict. By understanding and addressing these deeper feelings, you can foster a more harmonious and supportive relationship.

Alastair Duhs is an anger management expert. Over the last 30 years, he has taught over 15,000 men and women how to control their anger. He is the founder of The Complete Anger Management System, a transformative coaching program that helps people control their anger in as little as 30 days. Alastair is the host of the Anger Secrets podcast, where he shares insights and strategies for effective anger management.

In this episode

07:43 Understanding the root of anger in relationships.

11:39 Developing effective communication strategies.

13:44 Gender differences in expressing emotions.

16:55 Exploring different forms of abuse.

22:35 The impact of emotional immaturity and resentment.

27:43 Recognizing and addressing avoidance in conflicts.

33:34 Short-term strategies for managing anger.

38:51 Long-term strategies for managing anger.

40:18 The role of stress management in healthy relationships.

42:59 Seeking help and the challenges involved.

46:54 Witnessing change through group therapy sessions.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Pay attention to early indicators of anger, such as a raised voice or a fast heartbeat, and take action to manage these before they escalate.
• Engage fully with your partner by asking clarifying questions and reflecting back what you hear to ensure you understand their perspective.
• If an argument becomes unproductive, agree to take a brief break to cool down and revisit the conversation with a clearer mindset.
• Communicate feelings of hurt, disappointment, or betrayal to address the root causes of anger, rather than just the superficial symptoms.
• Incorporate basic stress-relief practices like deep breathing or progressive muscle relaxation to help manage emotional responses.
• Work on understanding your partner’s experiences and feelings by putting yourself in their shoes and acknowledging their emotions.
• Regularly check in with your partner to discuss any lingering feelings, preventing small issues from growing into significant resentment.
• If anger management continues to be challenging, consider joining an anger management program or seeking counseling to get guided support.

Mentioned

Breaking The Anger Cycle (free training) (link)

ERP 018: How to Deal With Feelings of Anger in Relationship

ERP 450: How to Develop a Healthy Relationship with the Emotion of Anger — An Interview with Bronwyn Schweigerdt

The 31-Day Kindness Challenge (free guide) (pdf)

Connect with Alastair Duhs

Websites: angersecrets.com

Podcast: angersecrets.com/podcast

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About this Episode

Alistair, thank you for joining us. I'm really excited to have a conversation with you.

Great! I'm very excited as well.

Yeah. There's been a few episodes where we've covered the topic of anger, and I would love to hear more about where you're coming from here. I do think this is something that's a particular focus of yours, so it's not just a subset, it's something that you really devote a lot of attention to.

Before we get started in the topic, what would you like people to know about you, where you're coming from, and also how you got interested in this topic, if you're willing to share?

Yeah, absolutely. It's a great question. So my name is Alistair Duhs. I've been an anger management and relationship counselor for about 30 years. So I feel like I've been doing this most of my life, if I'm honest. The way I got started was, I was about 21 or 22 years old, just graduated from university. I did a degree in quantum physics at the time, so I was doing a lot of maths and physics. I just felt like I wanted to know more about people. I wanted to interact more with people rather than numbers and formulas and things like that. So basically, I decided to train to be a counselor, which is what I did part-time. As part of that counseling training, I started running anger management groups for men and just found that these groups were amazing, that they had a really powerful impact on the men in the groups, that these men were making huge changes in their lives. So gradually, I just continued the counseling training, ran more and more men's groups. I guess anger management became my focus quite quickly after that.

Wonderful! Did you use curriculum that was given to you?

Yeah, this was in the old days, like early 1990s I think it was. But there was a set curriculum, so there was quite a long, I think, a 26-week program at that stage. So the guys in these groups would come into these programs and we'd deliver the curriculum. I guess over time, after running these groups many, many, many times, I feel like I had a good feeling for what worked for these men and what didn't work. So gradually, over time, I've developed my own approach based on that. But we were definitely using a set program back then.

Yes, and with experience and really having the opportunity to see what's really creating change, to be able to amend it and actually customize it and formulate your own curriculum, and it evolves. I think we're always growing and evolving. To that point, do you see women as well, in working with anger?

Yeah, absolutely. So I also work a lot with couples. Often, in couples, both people have some anger issues, maybe different for each person. But for me, the basic anger management tools are reasonably the same for both men and women. So the tools are pretty simple, the concepts behind them are pretty understandable, but they work for both genders.

All right, I want to dive into this topic. I can feel my curiosity already budding. Tell us, when you think about anger issues, how would you even define that? Because some people would really say any anger is uncomfortable. I mean, I am sure family has a component around culture, around how someone was raised, and then also so many components around how somebody relates their relationship with anger. I see anger as a human emotion, often a secondary emotion, that there's often something underneath that. Then also, how we deal with it can be constructive or destructive. Yet, it can be often really a rattling experience to be confronted with one's own anger or witnessing it in the other. So tell us, when you see anger issues, how do you define that?

Yeah, there's a lot in that statement, and understanding basic terms is actually really important. I guess, with people I work with, it's really important to have some understanding of what anger is. As you've said, I just define it as a human emotion. It's an emotion like happiness or sadness or fear or shame or powerlessness or any other feeling.

I guess problematic actions, especially in relationships, may end up in abusive violence to some degree. So distinguishing between the feeling and the action is really important when it comes to anger management issues.

Yes. So when you do draw this distinction or help people have a distinction, because I often think of this on a continuum, how would you help people make that distinction?

I have a test that I've used for many, many years. It's not always an exact test, but it gives people an idea, I think. So if I'm talking about abuse with people, it's important to understand there's a range of types of abuse, especially in relationships. Often, I'll talk about verbal abuse, emotional abuse, psychological abuse, sexual abuse, or physical abuse. So I might talk about these different types of abuse to people. But that doesn't really say if an action is abusive or not. In a relationship, for instance, if you're getting into an argument, you might be raising your voice, you might be using certain language that you might use when you're getting angry, or you might be taking certain actions. It's important to have some understanding if those actions are abusive or not. The test I use is very simple. I basically ask people three questions.

For me, an action is likely to be abusive if it hurts someone else, physically or emotionally. If it leads to hurt in your partner, emotional or physical hurt, it's likely to be abusive. If it causes them fear, same thing. If you're acting in a way that scares your partner. So if by raising your voice, you're scaring or intimidating your partner or using particular body language, it's likely to be abusive. Or if it serves to control your partner. If he or she is afraid to do what he or she would usually do in those circumstances, it's probably abuse. With clients, I'll go through that in some detail.

Well, thank you for just spelling that out really clearly. I can recognize that different people might experience fear or hurt respective to their own system, that what might feel scary or hurtful to one might not be to another. Do you find that this varies? Tell me more.

Yes, that's where it becomes interesting I guess. Because I might act in a certain way in one relationship, or I might act in that same way at work, and no one might feel scared or hurt by it. I might swear, for instance. I might swear at work, not that I do, but I might be in a work environment where swearing is common. I might come home and swear too, and my partner or children may be completely unaffected by it, or they might be scared or hurt by it. For me, it's not the action that determines if something is abusive or not, it's the effect on other people. This is where it's really important to have discussions in relationships about how do my actions affect my partner or potentially my children. So yeah, abuse is a very gray area, but for me, it is determined a lot by the impact on the other person. Not by what I do, but how it affects other people.

I can feel the importance of this. So often, partners might be in a defensive state, and if you're talking about the safety of the relating and the bond, it's really about how we're caring for each other and the climate of that relationship. It's not about right or wrong. We could survey a million people and try to get evidence to defend why what we're doing is okay, when really, there's variation here.

Absolutely. Also, people's histories make a big difference. If my partner has been raised in a home where there's been a lot of anger or violence, he or she, or she, in my case, she may not be particularly impacted by me raising my voice because she has experienced this a lot, or she may be extremely impacted by it for the same reason. So it's the same message I'm giving people.

Thank you. Alistair, it occurs to me that often the association with anger is the external expression of anger, but there's also the ways in which it's more internalized or how it might be passive-aggressive anger. Do you want to speak about that? Because I remember interviewing someone, for different reasons, but he was using the term emotional immaturity interchangeably with emotional abuse. That basically, when someone is denying or dismissing or deflecting or just distancing, that can be a form of abuse. That's not necessarily the outwardly, like slamming or yelling or throwing things, but it can be a lack of engagement or a neglect that can also feel abusive, and people can be a little stymie and angry in that way too.

I guess the example that comes to my mind is, if I'm using silent treatments in my relationship, for instance, or if I'm deliberately disconnecting from my partner because I know that she will feel bad about that and maybe try to repair the relationship, or maybe that it'll cause her even more worry or fear because she might not know how I might react after that. Again, that's emotional abuse for me. So if I'm just being quiet and there's no impact on my partner or she's not scared or controlled by it, I think that's kind of fine. But a lot of people will use those more subtle emotional abuse of tactics to get an outcome they want. So it falls into the realm of trying to control your partner.

Yeah. I will say, there's a large amount of people that are not even conscious of this. They're more avoiding conflict and don't know how to feel confident engaging. So thus it's not even intending to control or hurt, but it's just like: Ah, I don't know what to do, so thus I don't engage. How do you see resentment in the continuum of anger? Because I often see resentment can be very related to maybe unresolved anger. But tell me what you think.

I guess, for me, resentment sounds like it's a longer term emotion. So it's something which is building up over time. I guess it's after an argument that resentment might start to come out. If there is that background level of resentment, it's really important to be aware of that. So that if you are getting into an argument later on, you don't just explode partially because of that resentment. I guess that's what I'd think about resentment. You need to be aware of anything to change it. Being aware of that resentment is important.

Yeah. Well, related to my comment that I mentioned around maybe even avoiding conflict on the outside could look avoidant or neglectful, but really, it's out of fear. One of the things I've really appreciated about anger management is the recognition of honoring emotion. That perhaps it's the tendency to ignore one's feelings, and then this idea of accumulation and it reaches a certain threshold and then there's an outburst. But talk to us a little bit about what people typically conceive about anger management, and do you think what I just stated is a part of anger management? Help us from your management.

I guess what it made me think about was, if we're talking about anger management in relationships, we're usually talking about arguments. So the anger often comes out in arguments. So a couple will be arguing ,one or both people are likely to be getting more and more angry, and then there might be an event at the end of that. So some sort of verbal outburst, or sometimes physical action. That's of course extremely problematic. Behind that anger, a bit like you've mentioned, there will be the other feelings, like resentment or hurt or disappointment from previous times in the relationship.

So what I say to a lot of clients, and I think this helps, is that anger never helps, and what I mean by that is excessive anger. Acting out of anger, at least in relationships, pretty much never gets a good outcome. You might get what you want short-term, if you're in the argument by having an outburst and walking out. But it's not a good long-term strategy. While anger is an emotion, and people are allowed to feel angry, I would encourage people, you have to be aware of that anger to change it, like I've said before. But there will be other feelings, like you've mentioned, underneath that anger too. So learning to communicate those other feelings is actually much more effective, I think, to create a better relationship. Being aware that anger is a feeling, but it's not often helpful, I think that again is helpful for many people to think about.

Do you have an example? I mean, I can think of many, but this might be helpful to give people a context.

I'll think of almost an opposite example, which I think makes the same point. I was seeing a man a couple of days ago, and I've seen him a few times, and he's a very insightful, compassionate man. He's very attuned to his partner most of the time. But he has had an anger issue. He has struggled with expressing his anger for quite some time. He's got a lot of things going on in his life, including a lot of chronic pain, which doesn't help him deal with anger much. But he said to me that he was getting into this argument with his wife, and he just started to think, and this is really simple, but he became a bit more aware of his anger and he just started to think this is going sideways. That was his words he used, which is the same as: this isn't going to help. By recognizing the argument wasn't heading in a useful direction, he actually stopped saying what he was saying. I think he took a short timeout, which is a pretty common strategy, and then he came back, and his wife and him had this much more deeper conversation about what was going on for them both. It didn't escalate, and he ended up with a much more understanding of her perspective on the issue, and also why it was important to her. So that's extremely simple.

Very powerful. When I'm listening to you, I'm also recognizing that based on whether or not it's family, previous experiences, some people have a very difficult time approaching a concern in a more calm, regulated manner. It's almost as if I'm going to do my very best to preserve, not rock the boat, but then it gets so big or it gets so compelling that I can't not express the anger. But then it's like, when things are a little calmer, it's almost terrifying to approach. Do you find that? Because it seems as though many people struggle to feel safe bringing up an issue, even if there has been a lot of conflict.

Yeah. I guess my main thought, and again, I don't know how this sounds really, but communication in relationships is vital. To have a healthy process and practice of being able to communicate deeper issues effectively is really important to have a successful long-term relationship. But like you've mentioned, it's not easy. If stuff is building up, it's not easy to talk about this with your partner, particularly if there has been a history of arguments in your relationship. What I do with that, and I don't what you'd do with that, I'd be interested as well. But I think it's really important to have a regular practice of communication. I don't think it's possible to talk about the complex deep issues unless you're talking about things regularly with your partner. So to practice the communication skills, things like active listening, the more you practice, the better couples get at it. If couples are quite connected, if they're talking about small issues regularly, they're much more likely to be able to talk about the big issues. But you need to be able to talk about the small stuff before you talk about the big stuff.

Absolutely, it gives people the experience to work with. It's hard to go, on a scale from 1 to 10, a 9, when there's no experience that it's going to go well or that it's okay to bring something up. Now, in your years and years of working with people through anger management programs, was this part of the curriculum, is bringing up or raising a concern and advocating?

Yeah, absolutely. Because I think a lot of people think in similar ways to what you've just described. They sort of think, well, how do I communicate about stuff if I can't get angry? But you can't communicate about things effectively if you are getting angry. Managing the anger in the relationship is vital. So having those anger management skills, which are not too difficult to learn, but also those communication skills, is absolutely vital. So you can't just sit on your issues forever, you have to be able to talk about them.

Did you find that your participants were willing to take that emotional risk?

I guess there's a mix of answers to that. I mean, I've worked more with men than women, and I think men struggle more than women in terms of articulating emotions, and also being compassionate to the other person and empathetic. Part of a good conversation is trying to understand where your partner is coming from. If you just want to get your point of view across, it's not going to lead to a very good conversation. Because if your partner has a different point of view, then you've got a problem. For me, the first step in communication is learning to listen well. Teaching men and women I work with some really simple but effective listening skills, such as asking questions. I've definitely worked with men, and I don't know why it's men more than women, but men who really struggle to ask any questions to their partners. I'm not sure whether it's a skill deficit or just a lack of curiosity. But once these men start to learn to ask questions like, how did that make you feel, what happened next, some really basic active listening questions, it can really change the conversation. So yeah, all those communication skills are important.

I have a deep regard for men's development, and I actually work with quite a few men. I have probably equal in my practice, beyond working with just couples. I remember coming across some neuropsychology that really stated: men and women have the same capacity for empathy, it's just the verbalizing that's the difference. It makes sense evolutionarily and then culturally. I think there's a lot of studies that will show parents perhaps still talk to their daughters a little bit more about emotions than, if we're going to make this binary gender, men, or boys and girls, or men and women. But I think often there's just a little more playing time, a little bit more experience, and then the bonding. Physicality is usually a lot more of the bonding, stereotypically, with men. With women, it's a lot more of interacting and relational skills.

So I'm really touched that the men that you've worked with really are willing to engage and are able to see. It's like an addendum to their current way of being or skillset. Often, it feels as though when their partner is presenting them with a concern, it's like: Oh, they want my help, and I want to fix her, I want to offer a solution. Or they're not paying attention to the way I feel, or I just feel slighted. Like, well, what about me? I'm human, I have feelings too. But it's maybe not as visible, thus how do I raise my hand that I feel vulnerable or I have insecurities too? It can be a challenge to negotiate all of this, for sure.

Yeah, it's part of the relationship dance. If relationships were easy, neither of us would probably have jobs. Practicing these skills is really important. Especially men, I think we generally aren't socialized to pay attention to our feelings as much as women are. Often, we're told to be tough and be strong and harden up and all that kind of stuff. Fully agree with you that men do have these feelings. The feelings are there, but in terms of accessing them and also being, like I said before, empathic towards our partner, that's crucial. To understand that if our partner raises an issue, it's not necessarily a criticism of us, it's more reflection of how she's feeling. To better engage on that level is important.

Oh my gosh, I don't know if you've had this experience, there's been times in session where I am asking them to slow down. It's like, can you tell me what you see in your partner? It's very much there, perhaps it's like stating the obvious. Like, I see you're hurting, and I care. It's like, often, I need to say that, or that's useful to say? I'm like, yes, precisely. To slow down and just make a little bit more explicit what is going on, if you're my person. I care you're that hurting, I hurt that you hurt, and I want to help. But that's not always verbalized, even though it's there.

Yeah, absolutely. It's an exercise I've been doing in the anger management groups I run for a long, long time. It's really interesting, because there's this idea that men don't have feelings, or if they have feelings, it's anger. But there's an exercise, we do a bit of preamble to this. But basically, we asked men in the groups to think of a time they felt powerless or afraid. It can be a difficult memory for them to access, so we put some safety boundaries around the exercise. But then we asked them to describe how they felt in that situation, apart from powerless and afraid. We always get a huge range of feelings. So men describe feeling small, they describe feeling embarrassed, ashamed, powerless, angry, depressed, a whole range of feelings. So it really tells me that the feelings are there, but it's just that gap between the head and the heart to some degree. Helping men access the other feelings apart from anger.

Or that it's even cared about or that there's value in it. I think probably, historically, it hasn't been highly emphasized or nurtured.

Yeah, absolutely.

Well, I know you distill and have, as you might say, three secrets to anger management. What would you like us to know here, as far as where you're offering?

Maybe should I just run through the secrets quickly? So again, I think these are fairly simple and straightforward, but I'm hoping they're useful. For me, I always say the first secret is that anger doesn't help. So we've talked about that a bit. Particularly in relationships, getting angry, expressing anger is not a great relationship strategy, and most people seem to understand that.

The second secret is that, for me, the key to anger management is awareness. I mentioned this briefly, but you can't change anything you're not aware of. So if you're in an argument and you're starting to get heated, you're starting to feel frustrated or tense or annoyed or stressed or potentially angry, and of course you might be arguing with your partner at the same time, you can't change how you are responding unless you are aware that you are feeling angry. So there's some pretty simple tools to help people get that awareness, and like anything else, it takes practice to use these tools. But if you are able to recognize you're getting angry, the sooner you recognize that, the easier it is to make different choices about how you're responding. For me, secret two is awareness.

Secret three is that just you create your anger. A lot of people think that other people make them angry, so it might be something their partner says, or if they're on the roads, it might be how another driver is driving, for instance. They will think that it's actually that person's actions that are making them angry. 

So therefore, if you can change your thoughts in these situations.

Maybe just a really quick example. But if my partner is upset at me, and maybe she's criticizing me for something that I haven't done, if I think she's being unreasonable and unfair, I might get angry in response. But if I think she's feeling hurt or upset, or maybe there's some truth in what she's saying, I'm likely to respond in a much more calm way. It's not my partner's actions that are making me angry, it's my thinking about her actions.

Thank you. I mean, the first point is really helpful. I'm sure you've come across this, where in a disagreement, that there can be the temperature check around, am I trying to be right here or righteous or something like that? Or am I actually looking towards a deeper understanding? I remember, and sometimes still, I may have to ask myself that question. Less now than when I was younger. It was so useful, because so often, I was like: Oh, I am wanting to be right, or I am feeling this charge, whatever the charge is, and the righteousness around it. I mean, so closely, just the anger and the need to be right. Would you agree?

100%, I'd agree. I think it's very hard to argue without trying to be right. Not only that, when you're arguing, you're trying to prove you're right. It's one thing to think you're right, it's another thing to try to prove you're right. But that's how arguments go, that both people are trying to prove they're right. Usually things escalate when that is going on. So I guess my main question to people is, is that useful? Is that trying to be right useful or not? Most of the times not. So what would be a more useful approach? I think it's exactly what you've said, it's to try to understand your partner. De-escalate the situation. You might take a short break, or maybe you won't. But try to de-escalate the situation, and then maybe come back and talk about really what's going on for you both. I think that's always more useful.

I mean, really what we're also up against is the nervous system and that reaction, the sympathetic nervous system response of fight or flight. So often, to your second point, we might be reacting and angry and not even know why, and that often doesn't lead to anything productive, to your first point.

Yeah, absolutely. So awareness of that is how it starts. So awareness of if we're getting into that fight-flight response, or we're getting adrenalized, or we're trying to prove ourselves too much, just awareness of that happening. Then obviously, you need to change it, but that takes a bit of time and practice. Fundamentally, you may also need to look at what's going on underneath the surface for yourself? Like, how important is being right to you, why is that important? Maybe you've grown up in a house where you've had to argue your point of view all the time, or something like that. And what are other ways to respond? So thinking about all those questions. But like anything else, changing habits or changing patterns does take time and practice, but it is worth the energy. So it will lead to a much better relationship than one with anger and arguments and stuff like that.

And a discipline. It's almost a commitment to: I'm going to relate to my anger differently, I'm going to have some discipline and not just react. While it might feel like a relief valve in the moment to let out the hot air, so to speak, but to your point about it not being productive. I will say, on the receiving end, if I see anger demonstrated visibly clearly and intensely, I will feel the rattle of that, and if it's not named or if it's not owned, I'm likely going to be in question around: what did I do, what's happening? Trying to get my bearings, and it doesn't feel very grounded or safe or regulated.

Yeah, and that's where the walking eggshells concept comes from. So over time, if that happens regularly, or even sporadically in a relationship, the person on the receiving end of that anger will become extremely self-conscious and scared and not really knowing what's going on. The same with children. Children who witness or are exposed to this level of anger, it really affects them too. 

I guess if someone has an anger issue, for me, the message is that it is absolutely worth seeking help. Also, I don't think it's as hard as people think to change. So reaching out is often the hardest step.

For someone who's listening, that perhaps their partner does engage in a lot of display of anger and isn't willing to acknowledge their anger and/or get support. I mean, a client comes to mind, and the child was saying: Daddy has got big feelings. Like, he's able to identify, and he's trying to do his best, but he's still not in a place where he is seeking help. Then if we compound this with any type of substance abuse or substance use of alcohol or various, it makes that even more complicated. So what would one do if they're up against a partner that's not maybe building that awareness or that practice?

Yeah, that's a super hard question, I think. Because I think a lot of people are in that situation. Again, I don't know how this sounds, but in my experience, maybe men are a bit more reluctant to get help than women are. Men see it as a sign of weakness or something like that. But if your partner has an issue with anger, or particularly abuse, I guess that's what we're talking about, it is important to get some help with that. I mean, you can't change other people, you can just change yourself.

I guess my first suggestion would be to reach out to someone who has some skill in helping people in these areas. Maybe a local counselor, a local maybe domestic violence agency. Because it's not straightforward to leave a relationship, as I'm sure you know, where there is abuse, and it's not easy to make other people change. So if a person's partner isn't wanting help, there's not much you can do. So I think just getting advice is probably the first step. I mean, you can maybe have conversations. But if your partner is not reacting well to it, there's limited options. But get help and support.

Yeah. In your work, were you ever facilitating groups where members were court-mandated in the states, particularly California, if the police are called on any domestic dispute, even if no one wants to press charges? I have to check the current law, but I remember that it was mandated that somebody was going to be required.

Yeah, that happens a lot. I guess, in the groups I've been running for a long time, about half the people are in that categories. Some of those people, even though they're mandated, understand they have an issue, and it almost comes back to understanding that anger doesn't work. They may feel somewhat justified in responding with anger, but they know the effects of that anger and they're open to change. For the people who absolutely aren't, probably the most powerful thing is to be in a group environment. Because in that group environment, you will get other men who are saying actually: I didn't think I had an issue, but now that I'm making these changes, my relationship is improving. It's really hard to listen to that and not be influenced by it. Sometimes hearing other people change is a good way to motivate change in that first person.

Thank you for saying that. I think that's incredibly important and powerful to be in a group environment, especially when we talk about such a social evolutionary component, and to see a modeling of very healthy, strong men or men that are doing their work and interpersonally growing, that there's safety in that.

Yeah, I've got one quick story on that if it's useful. It really stuck in my mind. It was a long time ago, but it was a man who was mandated to do a 20-week group, and I was running the group, and he came into the group and he said: I've been told to be here. I don't want to be here. I'm not going to say anything, I'm just going to listen. But I really don't want to be here. We had the group session, and a lot of guys shared about the changes they were making and how things were improving for them. At the end of that first session, he said: Oh, maybe I should be here. He engaged well after that. I mean, also, it's important not to feel judged. So we didn't judge him, we didn't say anything negative. But he could see the benefit of addressing his anger issues. It was pretty obvious.

Wow, that's a quick 180. I thought you were going to say several sessions later.

No, it was one session. Sometimes the most resistant people make the fastest changes, actually, by the way, too.

Yeah. So you're still running these groups?

I do.

I applaud you and acknowledge that, that oftentimes, as someone evolves in their career and you have a private practice and you teach on these concepts and be able to support people, that you're still very much in the work of holding the space for people in a group setting.

It's really powerful work.

Wonderful. Well, I want to come back to the third secret around thoughts. I recently interviewed someone, and she was speaking about anger as it's usually an expression of having the experience of been betrayed. I thought it was interesting, and I could really see where she was coming from. Also, it kind of hits up that idea that there's an underneath threat or pain or trigger. But she was directly tying it to anger and betrayal. So when you talk about thoughts, I absolutely agree with you that our perception is such a huge influencer of what we're going to be experiencing. I don't know that that's really that disputable. You're also saying there's legitimate feelings if there's been an injury or a betrayal, that we would feel. Can you talk a little bit about how those two fit of the thinking?

Oh, the thinking and the anger, or the betrayal and the anger?

Well, a real experience of injury and hurt, and maybe even harm or trauma, and then also the thinking and how that also plays into anger?

Yeah, I'm trying to just think of a relationship context. So I guess, in the arguments in the couples I see, I would say perhaps the arguments are more about being right. They may both have a perspective on a situation, it may be a recent event that's happened, and they have different perspectives, so they're arguing about it. I guess always underneath the surface, in those situations, is a history of feelings that have been building up generally, and betrayal might be one of those feelings. They also might be hurt or let down, or there's a history to that argument. So I would definitely encourage and agree that it's useful to look at that history. So not just talk about that event, but talk about the feelings underneath the surface that are leading to that response. I think betrayal is part of it, but I think there's other reasons people feel angry as well.

Yeah. I think I got her definition of betrayal, but maybe it's just a bit broader than I typically use. So when it comes to guiding people in the discipline of controlling their anger, I love your second point, or even just the first, because it feels like a little bit of like, we're not going to do this. Second is, let's build some awareness and slow down. Like, what's really happening here, and can we identify? I mean, that's also the neuroscience: when we name an emotion, we can tame it and reduce the intensity of it, and then really work with our narrative around it or storytelling or what we make it mean. There might be an injury and a hurt, but what we make it mean can be maybe more problematic. So how do you help people control? You talked earlier about taking a pause, coming back in a calmer place. Is there anything else you do to help people work with their anger and control their anger?

Yeah, I would break it into a short-term approach to long-term approach, which is similar to what we've talked about. But in the short-term, you have to recognize you're getting angry. So I'll go through a number of common warning signs with people around getting angry. So really simple things like raising your voice, heart beating faster, body language changing, feeling hot, tone of voice changing. It's different for different people, and having negative thoughts. So being aware of those warning signs is important. I also use a scale just to calibrate it a little bit. So a scale from 1 to 10 of how tense or stressed someone's getting. If they're getting too tense or stressed, they'll become angry. So recognizing the level of anger before you get too high on that scale, de-escalating yourself by taking some sort of timeout, or changing the self-talk that's going on in your head. Instead of thinking negative thoughts about your partner, thinking: I need to take a few deep breaths, I need to just think about this, I need to think about the consequences if I keep going. That's sort of the short-term approach.

The long-term approach is more about changing those thoughts and beliefs that are leading to the anger. If someone criticizes me and I have a tendency to take it personally, changing those thoughts, like thinking: Well, actually maybe it's not about me, maybe it's about my partner and how she's feeling, or maybe I don't need to take this personally. Changing those thoughts takes a bit of time, but longer term, that'd be more effective. I may have a belief that I need to have the last word in arguments, which will lead to a lot of arguments. So changing that thought of belief will lead to a better outcome. So it's sort of a short-term approach and a long-term approach.

Thank you. For couples that are contending with a tremendous amount of stress, and it's almost as if it's compounded so, so much that maybe every attempt starts to go sideways, do you have any recommendations? Is it really just being in this practice, even if it means doing it over and over and over and over and over and over and over again until there's a little bit of space? Or what would you recommend?

Yeah, high levels of stress are problematic. So I think it's hard to have constructive conversations when you're feeling extremely stressed. So learning some basic techniques to reduce that stress, whatever they may be. But deep breathing, mindfulness, mindfulness exercises, changing how you think about situations. But I think we are able to manage stress to some degree with some practice. But also, again, build the small connections first. So don't try the most difficult conversation in your life when you're feeling quite disconnected from your partner. So build that connection, start with easy conversations, manage your own stress as much as possible, and get professional help. If both people are that stressed, maybe some counseling or coaching would probably be the most effective strategy.

Wonderful. Well, is there anything you want to say before we transition to how people can get in touch with your work more? Is there anything else you want to comment that we didn't get to?

No, I appreciate all the questions. I think for me, again, I don't know, I say this to a lot of people, but I see quite a lot of couples argue often in front of me, and I often think this is really pointless. From the outside, it's really obvious. Learning the skills to reduce these arguments is vital. If anger is an issue, especially if it leads to abuse or violence, it's absolutely vital for it to be addressed, and in my opinion, it doesn't take as long as people think. So it's a good problem not to ignore. It's a good problem to address.

Yes. Wonderful. Well, in your work in helping people address anger, what would you like to direct people towards how they can get in touch with you and what you're offering?

Well, I have a website, it's AngerSecrets.com. So there's a range of free resources on that website. So people can download quizzes, they can go through a free training, and they can also book a call with me if they want to discuss their situation with me personally. I also have a podcast which is called Anger Secrets. So if they want to get a few more tips and advice around how to control anger, they can just listen to my podcast. So those are the two main ways to get ahold of me.

Wonderful. You work with people internationally?

I do. I do a lot of online counseling and courses and stuff like that.

Lovely. I'll make sure to have the link to your website, as well as your podcast. May I ask, are you leading groups virtually?

Yeah. I run a coaching program that I call the Complete Anger Management System, which is an online course, and part of that is a group coaching program. So it's an online group coaching program, so people can access that if they want to.

Wonderful, great! I will put all of the links on today's show notes. Thank you so much for everything you're sharing and the work you're doing in the world, and supporting people in this way.

Oh, thank you for talking with me.

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