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Are you feeling disconnected in your relationship, particularly in the realm of sexual desire? Many couples struggle with mismatches in sexual needs and desire levels, leading to feelings of frustration, guilt, and even rejection. This disconnection can strain relationships, making intimacy seem like an elusive goal instead of a fulfilling part of life. But what if there were ways to bridge that gap and reignite the flame, regardless of societal pressures and personal insecurities?

In this episode, we delve deep into the complexities of sexual desire within relationships. We explore the psychological, physiological, and emotional factors contributing to low desire and how cultural expectations shape our intimate lives. We offer practical advice on communicating about sexual mismatches, utilizing mindfulness to enhance connection and the importance of understanding different desire patterns. Whether you're dealing with the impacts of medication, past trauma, or shifting dynamics over time, this conversation provides insights and tools to create a more passionate and connected relationship.

Jennifer Gunsaullus, Ph.D. is a Sexologist, Sociologist, Relationship Coach, Author, and International Speaker. A radical force for self-expression, Dr. Jenn has spent the last 20+ years tearing down social stigmas and shame around sexual expression. A celebrated author, Dr. Jenn is the writer of From Madness to Mindfulness: Reinventing Sex for Women, a self-help guide designed to liberate women and help them reclaim passion and pleasure both in and out of the bedroom.

In this episode

05:59 Exploring the complexities of low sexual desire.

14:11 Mismatched desires: Cultivating intention and understanding.

21:12 Mindfulness and sexual desire: Enhancing presence in intimacy.

24:17 Navigating body image concerns and their impact on desire.

27:21 Challenging outdated sexual norms for greater fulfillment.

31:23 The power of flexibility and creativity in sexual experiences.

35:48 Sustaining Long-term relationships through adaptation.

37:38 Using erotic stories and technology to enhance arousal.

41:44 Embracing new erotic concepts and understanding desires.

46:16 Prioritizing communication and vulnerability in relationships.

51:06 The crucial role of mindfulness and dialogue in sexual health.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Take time to understand whether your sexual desire is spontaneous or responsive, and discuss this with your partner to manage expectations.
• Incorporate mindfulness techniques into your routine, such as tuning into your sensations and feelings during sexual encounters, to enhance intimacy and connection.
• Create a safe space for discussing sexual desires and mismatches with your partner, advocating for mutual understanding and respect without judgment.
• Consider scheduling intimacy using methods like the “stoplight” or “0 to 5 scale” to communicate interest levels and align expectations.
• Be open to exploring new sexual interests or activities, such as BDSM or tantra, to reignite passion and connection within your relationship.
• Engage with audio erotic content or apps to help shift into a mental space conducive to physical arousal and personal enjoyment.
• Use journaling to privately explore and confront uncomfortable topics regarding your sexuality, enabling more productive discussions with your partner later.
• For women, aligning sexual activities with natural hormonal cycles, particularly around ovulation, can enhance sexual desire and connection.

Mentioned

15 Best Audio Erotica Apps and Spicy Stories for Pleasure (link)

From Madness to Mindfulness: Reinventing Sex for Women (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Podcast – Sex Talk with Clint & the Doc (podcast)

Female sexual shame hurts us all | Jennifer Gunsaullus | TEDxPhoenixville (*YouTube link) (video)

Evolve in Love (program)

ERP 334: How to Practice Mindful Intimacy — An Interview With Dr. Jennifer Gunsaullus

ERP 362: Understanding & Increasing Sexual Desire — An Interview with Dr. Lori Brotto

ERP 444: A Major Block To Sexual Desire and Sexual Intimacy In Long-Term Relationship — An Interview With Irene Fehr

ERP 287: How To Engage In The Art Of Giving And Receiving: Using The Wheel Of Consent – An Interview With Dr. Betty Martin

ERP 314: How To Work Through The Complexities Of Sexual Desire In Relationship — An Interview Martha Kauppi

ERP 211: How To Get Rid of Shame to Increase Pleasure In The Bedroom – an Interview with Ian Ferguson

Connect with Dr. Jenn Gunsaullus

Websites: drjennsden.com

Facebook: facebook.com/jennifer.gunsaullus

X: x.com/DrJennsDen

YouTube: youtube.com/user/drjennsden

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjennsden

Pinterest: pinterest.com/drjennsden

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About this episode

Jen, thank you for being here with us. Yay!

Hey, it's my pleasure to be here again. Thank you.

Yes. You've been a previous guest, and we're honored to have you back. I'll link the previous episode on today's show notes. I just remember feeling both this sense of energy and enthusiasm from you, and your playfulness, and also just addressing and really offering people so much value around how to navigate areas that maybe people don't have as much information about or tend to be a little bit more taboo. So we're in for a treat.

Yay! Thank you.

Yes, and we're going to be talking about sexual desire. Before we get to that topic, what would you like people to know that are either meeting you just here now as we're on this episode, or just what's important to share around where you're coming from?

Yeah. My context is that I have a background in sociology. So my PhD is in sociology. I know a lot of folks in my field have a more psychological background in psychology specifically. So I do have a private practice doing relationship and intimacy coaching. Certainly there's overlap with counseling and therapy, but it is its own thing. At the core of my work is always teaching people skills, specifically around self-awareness and mindfulness and compassion—self-compassion and compassion for their partners—so that we can know ourselves better, we can understand our partners better, and we can be kind in the process even when we're dealing with our most vulnerable topics that feel embarrassing and shameful and scary to talk about. So I'm always teaching skills around mindfulness and compassion, and just how do we then stay present with that when we're feeling really uncomfortable in a conversation, or when we're avoiding a conversation and have been avoiding it for a long time, but it's really important for our wellbeing and happiness or for the sake of our relationship. So that's just some background perspectives that I'm always bringing in.

Yes. I'm such a fan of the interdisciplinary approach, there's so much value that overlapping industries or fields can have really quality conversations. So I'm grateful that you bring more diversity in the conversation as it relates to some of these topics.

Yeah, it's interesting. I had somebody that just hired me recently as a coach, and he had heard me on another podcast recently. I think what he ended up liking was my sociology approach, whether he realized that or not. Because part of it is, if it's in front of you, it all makes sense, let's just figure out how it makes sense. I certainly am not trained to put labels on people or to diagnose people, and I think he felt a lightness in that and a freedom in that. Because sometimes, it can unfortunately end up feeling judgmental, or that is limiting people by putting people in a box with a label. And while there's absolute benefits to that in seeking treatment and interventions, that's on my mind because I just got that feedback. I was like: Oh, you like that I'm a sociologist, yay! We're not well enough known out there, that makes me happy.

Oh my gosh, so true. I remember in undergrad, I had a significant amount of sociology classes, and I felt very drawn. Although, psychology obviously.

Yeah, it won out.

But they're so related, just being interested in people and really looking at the more collective and the group and the culture. When we talk about sexual desire or just sexuality, so much of understanding, as you're talking about with this more compassionate, mindful approach, is learning perhaps why I do what I do or what is going on for me. There is some unpacking that likely has quite a bit of cultural overlay or family overlay.

Absolutely. I've found in my work over the years that that is so empowering for most people to realize that. Because so often, particularly around sexual topics, we think it's us. As individuals, we are broken, we are wrong. There's something off with us, we're not “normal.” And when I can help provide the context and help people pull out the layers of what they learned growing up, and the first time they heard about sex, and whether it was talked about in their household or not, and did they have embarrassing or shaming experiences around masturbation, and what were their first sexual experiences like, and what did their religious leaders talk about, or what was common in the media when they were growing up and teenagers? All of that.

Even hooking up, it'd be great if hooking up was just this thing that two people (or more) showed up in an interaction, and it was completely organic, and everybody had an equal voice, and they were only doing what felt pleasurable and fun. But no, there's a whole hookup culture around it that we don't even realize—what we think the other person is expecting from us, what we think we're supposed to do, how we're supposed to act, what we're supposed to ask for or not, etc. So all of that comes from the cultural learnings and teachings around us that shape how we individually show up to each context. It has a massive impact on it.

Totally. Just on another aspect of the continuum, even in a couple, in a long-term monogamous relationship, that there's expectations or norms or scripts that even the couple has developed, that likely are informed by family, culture, media. Or even just this idea that because we're engaging sexually, that that then means I'm a yes to everything, or that I don't have an opportunity, to your point, to really tune into what feels good. It's this guilt, like: I don't want to let you down, or I need to please you. All the things that it activates relationally. There's so much here.

There's so much. There's so many assumptions that we bring to the table that we do not realize, that we just think are facts or just the way things are done. Two people bring them to a long-term relationship and often never have frank discussions around that or ongoing discussions around it. Then they start not matching up and don't know why, but they had different expectations. I mean, frankly, then life is complicated. It's endlessly complicated. But that's what it is to live a life, and we're rarely taught the skills how to communicate through those difficulties and those fears and insecurities, and mismatched desire levels, and shifts when you go through pregnancy or you're on a new medication, or you lose a job, or you're having financial issues. Or you're moving a lot, and then you don't have your community to support you. There's just so many factors, and these are what make life fun and interesting and rich as well. But couples need to be able to navigate those together, and we're just not taught how to do that and how to do that in an ongoing way.

No kidding! Even the dynamics of like, I am afraid to be honest, or hurt your feelings, or those types of things. So before we get started on our topic, I'm curious, as you speak about mindfulness and compassion, do you have go-to suggestions that somebody could implement, or what it looks like in practice when you're saying we want to have these conversations? How might you encourage somebody to be more mindful or be more compassionate? I'm sure there's tons of exercises. Just what's the mindset here?

My starting point would be for folks to grab a pen and paper and actually reflect on, say, particularly if you're in a long-term relationship, reflect on your last argument or disagreement with your partner. Or reflect on the last time that you emotionally retreated from a conversation, or just changed the subject, or downplayed something—anytime that a topic came up and you didn't stay in it in a responsible, mature way and talk through it. We all have a host of examples of those generally. Look at that, and then that's a great starting point because it's so current in your life. 

Then, do some writing on it and say, what was I thinking, what's the story I'm telling myself in this moment, what meaning does this have to me whatever this topic is, what were my emotions? Literally go look up a long list of emotions, find it online or an emotions wheel, and pull out what were the main emotions. As you're doing this, you will probably notice that you're feeling something inside. Go to that place. Then you're like: Oh my God, I'm feeling this in my gut, or my heart is pounding, or my solar plexus feels really tingly uncomfortable, or my throat actually feels constricted, or I feel warm all over. Although that could be a hot flash if you're 51 like me and in perimenopause. So it depends on your age as well. However, look at that.

So that's that somatic mindfulness, that big picture of like: what are your thoughts, what are your emotions, and then where does it live inside you, where are you feeling it inside you? Because often, those sensations are so uncomfortable, that's actually what's running in the show. We don't want to feel that discomfort, and we don't even realize it's there. Because when there's any inkling that something may feel shameful or you may feel guilty, we just shut it down. Whatever then you did in that moment to not be in that conversation, or to blame your partner, or to walk away, or to grab your phone, or to drink more wine, or to make a joke about it, or whatever it was, that's the pattern you've learned over time to not have to feel that and stay in that discomfort. So that's a very practical starting point then to look at like: Oh yeah, here's all the components of what was going there.

Then as you're writing this, you're going to be feeling it. Do some deep breathing, like inhales in your nose and then longer exhales out of your mouth, to help calm your nervous system. Then ask yourself, what do I want to do differently next time? How could I be more present? How could I be more responsible? So that would be, like I said, a very applied tactical approach that you could do with anything in your life right now that's being avoided or isn't being addressed in the most responsible way.

Thank you, and this can be applied specifically to the topic of sexual intimacy or sexual health.

Absolutely. Those are just really hard, if you haven't done this before, in the moment, to address. It can really easily go awry, because we are so, so vulnerable in those moments. I know, for me, I've worked for years to practice what I preach, and overall I would say I'm quite good at it. But if I am particularly vulnerable in a sexual situation or around a sexual topic, I become very blunt and in your face and here's what's going on. I was like: Yeah, look at me, I'm not letting fear or embarrassment or shame get in the way. I'm communicating through this. It is not the nicest thing to hear on the receiving end, as I've learned. I was like, oh yeah. So I will pat myself on the back that I did talk, because that's huge.

Then I go, and the next evolution of this needs to have some softness. That's the compassion piece. That's the kindness towards myself, but kindness towards my partner and how I'm delivering it. Because I'm not necessarily being mean in my presentation, but I am very blunt and actually rather detached from my heart. I've realized, I was like: Oh, it feels so uncomfortable to be present that I can get it out of my mouth and say it, but I don't want to feel anything. So I had to pull back the layers of that and be like: Umm, no, if you want to do it effectively, and actually have your words be meaningful and bring me closer together with my partner to work through our issue, versus creating more problems, I need to feel it. I need to be uncomfortable and breathe through it and stay present with it, or tap out. Sometimes I do that, I'd be like: Well, okay, hold on, I need a minute. This is really uncomfortable, and I think I'm going to say something not so nice, so I'm going to step away. But let me just do a little self-soothing and self-care, and I'll be back in five minutes.

Thank you for that example. Because I do think, even in practice, we can muscle our way or whatever the tendency or activation is.

Yeah, it's like muscling my way through it. I'm like a bull in a china shop. But these topics, if they're sensitive to me, they're going to be sensitive to my partner as well, and I need that softness. Brene Brown says, strong back, soft front, and then wild heart. I was like, yes, that combination!

For sure. I mean, look, the courage, the bravery to take that risk and to be in service and notice. Also, when I'm hearing you say it gets me into that place of detachment, that my real goal, as you said, is to work with my person or who I'm relating to, and be able to work through it in relationship and in contact. That is hard to do when it's so, so vulnerable. I raise my hand with you that I live this, I practice it, and yet when I'm triggered, it is quite difficult.

The timing is right too, right? The time is not always right for our partners to bring up these conversations. But when we're both in agreement that let's try to have this hard conversation and let's try to be the best versions of ourselves and kind to each other, it absolutely is a form of intimacy. Because it is so raw and vulnerable and real, and you're talking about scary things that you don't talk to anyone else about, or insecurities and such. That is a beautiful form of intimacy. 

Hey, no, I can feel it too, just in myself, just how beautiful and real the experience around what that creates or co-create. I'm also simmering with a question around sexual desires, we're going to get into this topic, but also just sexuality in its bigger scope. When you talk about our human ability to distract or avoid, do you think that the sexual sphere is almost easier to ignore or be distracted about or punt or delay? Because it's this private sector, and perhaps we're not having frank conversations, so it's almost sometimes uncharted territory or it's unknown. Talk to me a little bit about that.

Yeah, absolutely. Because it is still so private and still taboo in many ways. It's not like if you're having an issue with one of your kids or parenting styles, that's going to be in your face every day. Or if you're having a household issue or with a car or school or anything, it's just going to be more in your face. Versus, sex is relegated to your private place, and maybe you end up having a pattern where you go to beds at different times or something, and then you just avoid it and you push it to the side. I've known a number of—both in my personal life with partners, and also couples that I've worked with—that the only time these issues and these topics do get brought up is when they're drinking, because the inhibitions are down. If it's just that perfect spot or the right amount of alcohol, it absolutely can work.

Because we still have our faculties.

Yes, exactly, and it's not going to end up with a blowup. But it's like a real fine line. But I think that's also interesting to look at. Are there topics that you only bring up when you've maybe smoked some pot or had some drinks? That's something to look at. You were asking about the mindfulness piece and tips. That would be another thing to look at like: Oh, is there a topic that only comes up in this context? Because that's probably some truth in you, some need maybe that's not being met, but something that's really important, but you're afraid to bring it up or you don't know how to bring it up. Then when your inhibitions are lowered and you're not feeling that social emotional angst as much, it's numbed through those drugs and alcohol, then you bring it up. That's something to look at. Again, I would say do some journaling. Because when we do the journaling, we feel it, we're in it. You're feeling it, but you're alone and you're safe, and then you can build some comfort with that discomfort, so then you can have those conversations in a more, hopefully, productive and sober way.

Yes. I'm almost getting a sense, Jen, that sexual health or vitality or wellbeing is so closely connected to one's overall wellbeing. So if one is in modern life and all of the demands, and perhaps maybe not even surviving, but really not necessarily in the most optimal zone where they're feeling really balanced and they're attending to different parts of themselves, I imagine many people will sacrifice some of themselves at times to show up for the children or show up for work or show up for whatever the urgent demand is, and the self-care is less. Also, I would wonder if sexuality gets deprioritized.

It absolutely can. I feel like we all have different set points of our desire levels.

Yes, talk to us.

That's not something you can tell at the beginning of a relationship when the neurochemical cocktail that is wired overall in us as humans and all animals, so that we procreate, and that feels amazing. So that is not a good gauge of what it's going to be like in the long-term when you feel safe and secure, and the sexual activity becomes rather rote and predictable, and you're just not getting those neurochemicals of excitement and newness and mystery and anxiety, but the good anxiety, of the beginning.

So it is really common for many folks—and in particular, it does seem to be women overall more so, but I've seen men as well struggling with this—that they have much lower desire than their partner, especially their male partner, in long-term relationships. Then you throw in work and house, and more housework still tends to fall on women. Then if they have kids, more childcare tends to fall on them, regardless of how much they're making and how much they're working outside the home. So that's something, as a sociologist, following those statistics for 30 years. Then pregnancy and childbirth and raising kids and breastfeeding, and just the endless demands on women's bodies, mentally and emotionally, as well as physically. So that's super common. You put all of those factors on top of it.

Then on top of it that, maybe you're just not feeling natural desire. It's just that there's other things that are way more important, and you're not feeling much of an oomph of desire, of that physiological yearning. It's super common to end up in a place like that. So especially for folks like that, they're like: Wait, I'm already taking care of a million other things, and I'm exhausted. And you want me to do something else for you that my body doesn't want to do?

I'm over-touched or I'm overstimulated, and you're wanting me to get more into stimulation and touch.

Exactly, and my body is not asking for that type of stimulation. What my body is asking for is sleep, or what my body is asking for is a foot massage, or what my brain is asking for is some detachment where I don't need to make decisions and I don't need to be present and I don't need to do more. I don't have the bandwidth to do more. I will say, I've worked with couples over the years who both in a long-term relationship have lower desire. They come to me, and then after pulling back the layers, I was like: Wait, do you guys want sex, or are you here because you think you should be having sex?

That's a great question.

They're like, well, we thought it was normal and we should be, because that's what you do. But I was like, well, how much do you like it, how much do you miss it? Then I look at factors like, is somebody on a medication, or is there something physiological, or is there some past trauma? Or do they actually really want it, but they're afraid to put more pressure or weight on their partner? So we pull back all those factors. But I have seen couples that are truly great couples, very respectful, communicative, great parents, households like best friends, and both of them have low desire, and neither of them miss it. There's nothing wrong with that. That is absolutely fine. It's just, mostly, it's a mismatched desire. One person absolutely misses it, and the other person doesn't at all, or maybe they do a little bit. That's where then we play, where can we find some middle ground? How do we cultivate something that generally just seems to naturally be there, that feeling of desire, and what happens when it's not naturally there, and then how can we intentionally cultivate it?

So I always try to find an analogy for the higher desire person. Higher desire people, often, they can just be walking around in their day, and then they're like: Yeah, I could do that, okay, let's do it. Then the lower desire person is like, that's insane. There's 40 things on my priority list, how is there any part of you that feels that now? But it really is a physiology thing. It's a mix of hormones, and I think other set points and such, and frankly something we don't understand well. Because if we did, we'd have pills that actually worked for it. This isn't Viagra. Because that's for arousal, not for desire. 

Yes, so much that you're saying I could respond to. I love it! It's all so important and helpful. I want to respond or ask a question about this even notion that it's just supposed to happen. You talked about this relationship energy.

Yes, the spontaneous thing.

Yeah, this cocktail that's supporting, like: Oh, we're just supposed to go to bed and then now have extra time for our lovemaking or being sexual together. If one is in a partnership or however they're structuring things, that it just happens. Even when we talk about desire and arousal, I think on the continuum, I've understood that there's people that are a little bit more spontaneous, to your point, about being a little bit more high desire. Then there's others that are a little bit more responsive, or that it's just even noticing the arousal. Like, if one is looking at sexy photos, not porn. So self-example here, I'm in the process, I've been working on a new website, hence all the traveling. I was like, I need to have some more sensual that supports the sexual space, and I was looking at all these sensual photos.

Did you go Google sensual photos?

I started feeling a little sexual. It just wasn't even anything erotic. But I'm like, it's something that I'm responding to or that I'm giving attention or focus on. People, to your point, maybe aren't talking about it, aren't noticing their own arousal during the day, or even nurturing it or cultivating it. So while we might say, I'm not necessarily needing it or wanting it, but then am I paying attention to my own things that bring arousal?

That's a really great way. Lori Brotto, around mindfulness, she has been researching—for men and women, but especially women—sexual desire and sexual pain, for decades now. She's out of British Columbia. Her work is fantastic.

She's been on the show, so I'll link it today. She's awesome.

Yay, oh good! Her stuff is so good, and we get all of the research behind it. She was the first one out there doing it, tying mindfulness to sexuality and desire and such. I think Better Sex Through Mindfulness is her book, and one of the things she talks about in there is through the practice of mindfulness. So I gave a specific applied version of mindfulness. But mindfulness overall is studying what we're feeling inside of us and attuning to nuances. So as applied to a sexual situation, noticing if you're distracted with thoughts or emotions and acknowledging them, but then bringing yourself back to noticing your five senses, but really your six senses and more, of all the sensations inside you—what pressure and tingling that you're feeling.

Sometimes, if you're distracted or if you just want a sexual encounter to get over with, versus if you really attune to feelings in your genitals and in your abdomen, you'd be like: Oh, there's a little warmth there. Oh, there's a little tingling there. Oh, there's a little bit of pleasure, let's see if we can go back to that. It was fleeting, but maybe we could switch back to that. That level of nuanced awareness and paying attention and noticing. But then we could play on that. Anything we put our attention on tends to grow. So that is a really a powerful way of paying attention.

Another way I apply this too is… Now, if women are on the birth control pill, that stops ovulation, we can't apply it in that case. But for women that aren't on birth control and are naturally ovulating every month, premenopausal women, that is really helpful. Because often, we have one or two bursts of a little horniness throughout the month. So generally, it's around ovulation, because that's how we're literally wired and programmed as animals. Sometimes women get a little burst right before they get their period or at the start of their period, which is not most ideal, and you may be having cramps also. But study that for yourself, and then literally see. 

If you're in a partnership where your partner definitely would like more sex, and you would like to feel more passionate while you're having sex and not just going through the motions, pay attention to your natural cycles and literally look ahead. Use a tracking app if that helps, if you don't already, if you can track, and try to put a date night into the calendar. Try to put some downtime and some quality time with your partner around when you should be ovulating or when you should be having these bursts. Because it is so much more fun to have sex when you're actually wanting it. Now, for many folks, once they get started, and if their partner knows how to turn them on in a way that helps and doesn't hurt.

Yes. I had a client, or maybe it was a TED talk or something, it was years and years ago, but she was talking about: I need to tattoo on my hand that I like sex. Because I forget that I like it, and then once I start I'm like: Oh, I love this, but I forget that I do.

Yes, but it's that leap of faith. Because if you're not wanting it that much, and you've got a million other things that seem more important, it is important to schedule some time for intimacy time or downtime quality time with each other, and then talk to your partner about what does turn you on. Because I remember I had a couple years ago, this woman's boyfriend, they'd start kissing, and then he'd go and reach for her nipples, and her nipples were so sensitive. He is like: Well, that's second base, that's what you do. I was like, how about you make nipples fifth base? They're like: You can do that? And I was like: Yeah, you can put it wherever you want. It depends on your body. Because then, by the time they got to the point that they were moving into intercourse, she absolutely loved having her nipples touched, and it felt amazing. But it was too much. It was too much sensation. So instead of feeling pleasurable, it actually felt off-putting and almost violating. It made her want to push away, because it was just too much.

So that type of conversation about: Okay, what is the right path to go and the right pacing to go, that then gets you out of your head and present in your body, and then helps your body actually turn on and be open to feeling sexual feelings? 

That is so precisely what I was feeling you speak to that feels super important to underscore, which is to allow enough room and space and awareness to follow the internal desire or arousal, and let that be what is followed. Versus some idea of like: Ooh, I saw this, whether or not I see all this imagery on a movie or a show or whatever, and I'm like: Ooh, that's hot and I want to replicate that. Or whatever, how we're informed by imagery. Then also, what's worked in the past historically, whether or not it's in this particular relationship or in one's life, that we resort to what's worked—that's human. And to your point, we're not or our partner is not what they were however many years. So instead of just overlaying this model or this expectation, that you're really speaking around: can we give this life, can we breathe into this a little bit and let that be the lead and the guide? Am I hearing you?

Well, and it takes courage to do that. Because you're being vulnerable. Again, when you follow what you know, you're not “insulting” your partner by saying—I put insulting in quotes, but that's how they might interpret it—by saying: Oh, this doesn't work, or that doesn't work anymore, or I don't like that. They're like: Wait, did you ever like that, or have you been faking orgasms? Anytime we bring something new into the mix, when you have a pattern that “works good enough,” that can be vulnerable again, and we could be afraid to do it that we don't want to insult our partner. But that idea of, exactly like you said, we're not who we were before. Frankly, we're not even today who we were yesterday. It depends on how well we slept and how stressed we are, and what we ate and how well hydrated we are, and where we are in our menstrual cycle, etc. All those things truly impact how we can show up in a sexual encounter.

I would say, I think sometimes it is helpful to be in our head just initially in terms of, if sex matters to you in your relationship and the wellbeing of your relationship, you do like it once you get going, and your body is not asking for it, it can be helpful too. The head part I'm talking about is to be intentional about what I said before, about scheduling some time, and then it is intentional to taking a leap of faith. Being like, I love my partner, I trust my partner, I know my body will probably kick in once we get going. 

And you also need to have the other side of it. Trust in your partner, in a conversation with your partner, if your body doesn't kick in, that it's okay to stop it and say: Hey, for whatever reason, this isn't working this time. It has nothing to do with you. It's wherever I am, or I'm worried about this thing, or I'm stressed. I don't know, I'm not getting wet, and the lube is not helping, and it just doesn't feel good. Most times you tell your partner it doesn't feel good, it's like, you haven't done anything wrong, but my body, it's just where I am and it doesn't feel good. They'll be like, well, of course I don't want to have sex with you if it doesn't feel good.

But it is initially that head piece of making that intention and taking that leap of faith. Then once you're in it, drop into your body, drop into the sensations—feel the kissing, feel the kissing on your neck, the hugging, smell your partner, listen to the music, whatever it is, your senses—to then get out of your head and drop into your body. Then hopefully, your body will respond and kick in. Yeah.

Yeah. I would even wonder, partly, if it's possible even before approaching that space, to do some downregulation or whatever to get one in a bit more availability. Like, I can tell for myself, if I'm switching from total task mode to then trying to be embodied, I'm like, that's too fast.

I know, because I'm still doing the task in my head or thinking about that thing I didn't finish. That's another thing. One way that technology is good for sex lives, instead of interfering with them, is all of the audio erotic apps that are out there now.

Oh, you'll have to send your recommendations.

Yeah. Actually, there's a great article. This is totally funny. There was this article that I've been sending out for maybe two years or so, to folks, after I speak to groups for Valentine's events and I work with couples. I was like, I send this article, and it was a review of top ones. Then the folks that did it, I think it was well and good, I forget the company or the magazine, they then were doing an update and they reached out to me. I was like: Oh my God, I get to be in this article that I'm already sharing all the time, because it's such helpful information. I was like, yay, now I'm quoted in it. So I'll send it. Because it really does, it goes through, I don't know if it's 10 of them now or something.

The power of this is that our brains, you know that saying that our biggest sex organ is our brain or something like that, and the power of fantasy. If we really are sitting and imagining a really hot sexual encounter, our body responds. We get out of our heads and in our bodies, and we feel sexual. So the audio erotic apps, or maybe you can go through and choose different stories. Some of them might feel cheesy, some of them might feel terrifying, depending on your taste. But find one that matches your taste and your interest. Or you might be able to be like: Oh, I've never done power play or BDSM, but that was hot. Like, that got me really turned on, and that was unexpected.

So the beauty of this is you could be in a grocery store with your earbuds in, and listening to an erotic story, or doing the dishes or driving home from work or out on a jog or something. So that would be a way to what I call prime your own pump, instead of expecting your partner to have to get your body going. We can do it some our own. Then you can tie it to pulling out a vibrator or touching yourself a little bit, so you're getting your body warmed up some.

But that mental piece of listening to those stories. I remember when they first came out, and Dipsy was the first one that I listened to, and it was just when we had shut down in COVID times. I was single and living alone, and I started listening to one of these. I got 10 minutes in and I was like: Son of a bitch, this is so hot, and this is not a good idea right now! Like, I could go masturbate, but I am already alone enough. I was like, I need to shut this down right now.

Yeah, it's effective.

It was very effective. That's why I was like: Oh, this shit works. So I was like, I do not want to be turned on that much right now. But I've got lots of clients that are using different ones and trying them out, and then often many of them now have educational components as well, or even guided meditations or mindfulness meditations. There's different components. So I highly recommend them.

That's awesome. So a little bit of an aside, I want to share personal, and then I want to get back to this mismatch. Because I think this is a real struggle for people to negotiate, and I think you've given us some really good keys already, and I want to do our best to summarize that. But just to this point of education, it's been so astounding to me when I happened upon stuff, I don't know if you've ever come across Erotic Blueprint. I don't know the materials super well.

Oh, that's JAIYA's stuff, I think.

Yeah. But it was, like, the energetic. Then, I don't know if you've ever heard of Betty Martin's Wheel of Consent, that exercise. I was just playful and I was like: Oh, I just want you to touch, like therapeutic touch, not actually touch my body. Just stuff that I've run across that's energetic, that I didn't even know that I needed or wanted, that it was so opening for me. It's just the fact of experimenting or being open to trying and learning something new that I was like: Ooh, I never knew this about myself, and it was very extremely helpful.

Well, can I ask a question? I'm curious. Because it was interesting, you tying the Erotic Blueprints and the energetic and the Wheel of Consent. Was there something about it that felt safer or helped your alarm systems or something calm down and helped you be more present in safety?

Oh, I see what you're saying.

It was just an interesting mentioning of those two in the same sentence.

Maybe there's a connection. I wasn't aware of that. I'll have to reflect on that. I think what I was speaking to is engaging with different material, having education or new things that I'm exposed to. The energetic gave me language like: Oh, I actually do like the anticipation, I do like a little bit even before kissing. Instead of this just full sensual body on body, I like the little bit of space to feel between. Then to that point, when we did the Wheel of Consent, and I had asked for, as a way that I wanted to receive pleasure, was not actually to be touched yet. To be this energetic touch of not touching my body, but just an energy sweep. And I had tears running down my eyes. I was like: Oh, this just feels so honoring. To your point of opening, I felt so much more receptive. I'm kind of like what you're describing, it's more of the initial. Because I think my husband is more sensual, so he likes the full-on.

Let's dive in and touch and be in it.

Yes, and I appreciate that, and the energetic part of me. So I think that's been really helpful in my education. Also, I interviewed someone, Irene Fehr, who talks a lot about highly sensitive people, and to your point about being overstimulated and then approaching the sexual space being overstimulated. It's like, that's more stimulation. So how to help the body really calm and be able to? Because one that's prone to feeling more overwhelmed might find that overwhelming.

No, I love that. That's great. There's so much in this. Thank you for sharing that, and I just wrote that down. I was like: Oh yeah, I forgot about the Erotic Blueprint stuff, I want to go back and revisit that. It's been a while since I have, and I want to do it with my partner now because we haven't done it together. Something that stands out too, and I think if any folks that are listening, if you are the higher desire person in your partnership. I tend to be the lower desire person in long-term relationships. But early on, hot and heavy, I could be the higher desire person sometimes. 

In a past partnership a while ago, even though I had told my partner upfront, I was like: Hey, it doesn't stay like this, this is definitely physiological. Even once we were two years in or something, he still was resentful that we would have to do something. He's like, but I like the way we've done it from the beginning. I'm like: Yes, but that doesn't work for me. That's just physiologically not how my body works. It has nothing to do with our relationship or you or attraction. I think he knew that, but he still blamed me for it, and that I should be able to just take care of it myself. I was like, that's insane. Because we're in partnership, and anything we do has to be together to work on this. So it's just something to say, if there's higher desire folks out there, don't judge your partner that they've changed from how they were years ago or how they were in the beginning.

And what you were sharing, I could easily see even myself feeling that way. I'm hot and heavy in the beginning. I'm like, let's dive in, let's be in it. Versus, I definitely need a slower uptake now. Even I could that energetic piece, and certainly feeling a heart connection and feeling emotionally connected, and then slowly moving our physical bodies together. That doesn't mean what we had a few years ago wasn't real, just like this doesn't mean this isn't real. It's all real and in the moment, and our bodies change and shift over time. So how can we be good partners and be in teamwork around that, instead of in judgment or shame around it?

Thank you. Can I see if I can summarize a little bit to help people listening? Help me with what I'm missing or if I got something wrong here. That when you're talking about sexual desire and perhaps people in partnership that have a mismatch—that one experiences more high desire and one that doesn't feel as much sexual desire—that having a conversation, really bringing a safe environment to dialogue and wonder. Is this something I want? Are there things getting in the way? We talked about the cultural pieces. Or even how much we do want sex. People are sometimes comparing themselves to others. Like, are we okay? Like, are we having sex enough? But to really look at what do we each need, and the mindfulness about unpacking some of those layers.

The body image piece too, which I haven't really mentioned, which is a huge one. Especially for women, but for men as well.

Absolutely. Then to be able to look at, if there is wanting it and there is the enjoyment around it, and you talked about all the things that might interfere with even enjoying it, that it's sometimes accessing it. Then you've given a lot of examples around how to either prioritize it, utilizing the hormonal cycle of somebody female-bodied, and how to give room and space, how to follow the natural stirrings and the body somatic awareness. Is there anything else you want to say?

You mentioned the capacity around, it doesn't have to look a certain way. Perhaps we enter into the sexual space and you're super-hot, and it's not working for me for whatever reason. I'm really open. I feel desire. There's certain parts that I'm wanting and other parts I'm not, it's not happening. That one partner can and the other one doesn't, and that we're each responsible for our own orgasm, so to speak.

Younger generations maybe get that better, maybe because masturbation was more normalized for them or thinking outside the box. But particularly for, maybe I'll say anybody over 40 or so, that is mind-blowing to them. They would be like, a sexual encounter “should” look a certain way, and generally, in a heterosexual encounter, that means that it ends with intercourse, or it ends with maybe oral sex on her to have an orgasm. But that thinking outside the box. That's why I so often like to use the term sexual encounter, which maybe sounds weird and detached, but it's just sexual activity. So when I talk about scheduling.

So first of all, I loved your summary. That was beautiful. That was great. But scheduling time, sometimes people are very resistant to that. But other types of people are like: No, it's great, it helps me anticipate it, like you said. But it also just helps me switch my mood during the day, or I make sure I do some meditation, or I do exercise so I feel better in my body, or I listen to one of those audio erotic apps and I get myself in the mood. And I know we have quality time together, so I feel seen and connected and loved and all of that. But then, what happens if it turns into a sexual encounter? That can look so many different ways, and I do want people to think outside the box. One of the reasons I like using a stoplight or a 0-5 scale is because I've had couples that are like: I kind of want to initiate, but I'm not sure where my partner is and I don't want to impose on them.

So when they can come up to them and be like: Hey, kids are down to sleep, just wondering. I'm at like a four, I'm just wondering where you are. Then their partner is like: Huh, I was really looking forward to laying on the sofa, doing nothing, so I'm at like a two, but I'm not a zero or a one. I'm at a two, and I do want to connect with you because I do love you, and we haven't even just felt connected because we're two ships passing in the night with so much going on. So give me a little time, let me go brush my teeth, let me chill a little bit, let me finish this email, whatever. And then you find each other, but you're managing expectations.

Then especially, if you're like: Oh, I'm a two, maybe that means I give you a hand job, or we make out some. But my body I don't think is going to get turned on. But I see you're turned on and you're feeling good, and I want to give you pleasure. Or maybe then that two turns into a three and a four and a five, but maybe it doesn't. Maybe it stays where it is, and that's okay. But you still get to connect us in partnership.

When you have the flexibility that it doesn't have to look one way, and that that one way has all of these expectations around it. Particularly if you're the lower desire person and you're like: I don't know that my body is going to kick in, or I don't have a lot of energy, I'm exhausted. You could still show up sexually for your partner, and in this loving, and hopefully fun and playful way. Because if we're not doing our normal things—maybe you bring in a toy, maybe you bring in different positions, maybe you do it in a different location in a closet standing up—there can be more freedom to what you're doing. I think that is really important in sustainability in a long-term relationship. 

Wonderful. There are so many things that you're saying here that really help people negotiate sexual desire mismatch. I'm curious for you, do you feel, based on your experience or your understanding, that approaching the topic and the dynamics with some of the recommendations you've mentioned here today, do you feel like by and large that helps people greatly? Or do you feel like there's a percentage of people that just still, with all of this effort and work, will get to a place?

That's such a good question. So I will say this to clients. Sometimes there's this easy little shift, or there was a misunderstanding between them sexually. Or they shift to not trying to do it at nighttime, and they do one morning during the week and an afternoon delight in the weekend. Or their kids grow up a little bit and they can get them out of the house more or something. Occasionally, there's something like that. And, occasionally, sometimes it's like folks start trying BDSM and power play, or they get into Tantra, or they try some new things that are really bringing sexual excitement to it. 

For some folks who I could tell don't seem to actually like each other that much, or don't have that much respect, or there's just so much resentment that has been built, or somebody has a particularly sharp tongue and the other person just cowers, I was like: Oh, this isn't a healthy emotional dynamic. Or it's just been going on for too long. Or frankly, their personalities are so mismatched and they have trouble even understanding each other, and so much is interpreted as the other person is trying to hurt them or is trying to be neglectful or doesn't love or care. Versus, realizing like: God, no, you guys are just truly different people and look at the world differently. So when I have folks like that, I am like: You guys absolutely can make this work long-term. I am going to tell you though, from where I see, you're going to have to keep prioritizing this and working on this. For some people, it's ongoing hard work.

So for couples who love each other, listen to each other, have some good emotional maturity and listening and are better at not taking things personally, but continue to talk about it and work on it, they still have to work on it, they still have to prioritize it. But it can be a new pattern and habit for them. Then their main issue is then if they have a vacation or somebody gets sick or somebody is really stressed and then the pattern gets broken, how do you get back to it? That's often when I haven't heard from folks in three years or something, and they're like, we've been great. We still say when we're in an argument or something goes on: Wait, wait, wait, what would Dr. Jen tell us to do right now? I'm like, yay! And they're like, and we're off again, we need to be reset. Or we have this new factor that was brought into play, and we don't know how to negotiate this.

So it's hard to know exactly where you sit. But generally, in one session with folks, I can figure out where they are, and then I am honest with folks. Anything worthwhile in life is worth prioritizing and working on, and then figuring out how to make a good positive habit out of it.

Wonderful. Well, I can feel there's so many more questions I have for you. But I'm going to not delay us longer, so thank you for taking a little extra time here.

Absolutely.

Well, how do people get in touch with your work? I know you've written a book and do a lot to help support people. Where would you like to direct them?

Yeah. My main hub for everything is my main website, which is DrJennsDen.com. That's where my book, From Madness to Mindfulness: Reinventing Sex for Women, is on there. I've got a podcast I've been doing for a while within San Diego, a local radio host. TEDx talks and just tons of free resources and reading on there. Folks can follow me on social media too, I'm on pretty much most of them. So if my approach resonated with you, please find me on social media. That helps me get my word out more.

Yes. So not only your social media, following you, all that you offer on your website, and your books and your podcast. Do you also accept new clients, or how does that work for people?

I do. I keep a small private practice, because I do travel a lot for speaking. But especially, I mentioned before, if somebody comes through a podcast or through reading my book or hearing me talk, that means they know how I approach these topics and it already resonates with them and they like it. So then, if somebody reaches out to me and they're like, we're struggling with this and you mentioned this, and then I was like: Yes, that is totally in my wheelhouse, let's talk a little bit, get your partner onboard, let's do this. So they could just reach out to me and we could see if it's the right fit.

Excellent. Well, I'll make sure to have all that information on today's show notes. Thank you, Dr. Jen, for being with us.

Thank you. You're lovely. Your questions and your presence and your intelligence and your thoughtfulness, it's just really lovely. Thank you, I really enjoyed this conversation.

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