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Money can be a daunting topic, especially when societal pressures and differing personal values come into play. How do we break free from these external expectations while fostering a healthy financial dynamic within our relationships? This episode delves deep into the intricate psyche of our monetary interactions, examining how they can reflect broader themes of security, belonging, and self-worth. If you've ever felt overwhelmed by the financial expectations placed upon you or worried about aligning your monetary habits with those of a partner, you're not alone.

In this episode, we explore practical strategies and thoughtful exercises to help partners cultivate a healthier relationship with money. We discuss the importance of defining wealth beyond mere numbers and how to recognize and address our individual money patterns. Through meaningful dialogues and engaging practices like the wealth mandala and satiation challenge, listeners are guided to become more conscious of their spending habits and financial goals. By the end of this episode, you'll gain a new perspective on managing money in a way that aligns with your values, fosters trust, and promotes a sense of fulfillment within your relationships.

Elizabeth Husserl is a registered investment advisor representative, financial advisor, highly sought-after speaker, and cofounder of Peak360 Wealth Management, a boutique wealth planning firm. She does nonprofit work throughout the Americas and has led workshops at major tech companies, including Airbnb, Unity, and Google. She lives in the San Francisco Bay Area with her husband and daughter.

In this episode

07:19 The importance of psychological perspectives in financial advisory.

11:13 Defining wealth beyond monetary value.

18:14 Examining personal relationships with money.

28:29 Addressing trust and transparency in financial relationships.

31:16 Comparing consumer choices within community contexts.

34:16 Recognizing societal pressures and redefining success.

37:54 Building mindfulness and playfulness in financial conversations.

40:38 Exploring belonging and fulfillment without excess consumption.

49:23 Encouraging shared financial inquiry and practices for couples.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Define your values: Reflect on your personal and relational values to understand what matters most to you, as this will guide your financial decisions and help you feel more aligned with your spending.
• Record three things that gave you a sense of satisfaction each day for a month to better understand what truly fulfills you without financial expenditure.
• Conduct a wealth mandala exercise: Identify your various needs and how well they are being met to create a visual map of your well-being, helping you situate financial and non-financial aspects of your life.
• Pick one area of your spending (e.g., groceries, dining) to monitor for a month, allowing you to become more aware of your habits and make informed adjustments.
• Sit down with your partner to discuss financial goals and create a plan that aligns with both your values, ensuring you work as a team rather than in opposition.
• If trust issues arise in financial management, consider maintaining separate accounts while sharing a joint account for mutual expenses to alleviate tension.
• When achieving significant financial goals, like buying a house, take the time to celebrate and fully appreciate the milestone, reinforcing the positive impact of your efforts.
• Use exercises like the Gestalt empty chair technique to have conversations with money, enabling you to uncover and address deeper emotional patterns and beliefs about money.

Mentioned

The Power of Enough (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Smart Couples Finish Rich (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Evolve in Love (program)

Connect with Elizabeth Husserl

Websites: elizabethhusserl.com

Instagram: instagram.com/elizabethhusserl

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/elizabethhusserl

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

About this episode

Elizabeth, thank you for joining us.

Oh my gosh, Jessica, I'm so excited to be here.

I am too. I really appreciate and very much welcome the diversity of voices, and just your background in finance and all the things you have to offer as we look at our relationship to money. Also negotiating being in an intimate relationship where people might have different beliefs about money, different relationship with money. I think you have so much to offer here. Is there anything you want to let people know a little bit about you, just how this is a passion of yours?

Yeah, how it came to be. So I would start by saying, my two passions in life are spirituality and psychology, and then economics and finance. I love numbers and solving problems, and I love humans. I can remember, as a teenager, just being like, how do I bring math into this depth psychology and who we are? So that's been my career for the last two and a half decades, is how do these fields overlap? It surprises a lot of people when I say: No, I have a degree in psychology, and also, I'm a financial advisor. I sometimes ask myself, Jessica, I'm like, how do financial advisors not have a degree in psychology? Because our relationship with money is so personal. There's some universal applications, but it's so personal, and what you were saying about there's so many differences in our relationships with our partners, our spouses, our kids.

I've never had two people walk into my office and have the same money story, money beliefs, money history, money values. Part of what makes us uniquely us is that we bring our own flavors and our own personalities, and that can create tension and confusion and haziness. So for me, every time I get to sit and work with someone, it's like a new puzzle that I get to just be with. I get to bring both the numerical analysis to understand someone's financial life. But then I get to step back and be like, let's separate and discern what pertains to the world of money and then what doesn't. That's often really interesting, all the emotions we have. So it's been three decades. These are my passions, and I have managed to carve a path where I can do both the number-crunching, problem-solving, and the deep, meaningful conversations with people.

I am also with you. How do financial advisors not have this training? Because money, sex, these are the hotter activating things. They're going to activate emotion. Period.

Yeah. Even if you start thinking, there is behavioral finances that's starting to become more of a predominant part of the field, it's still based on how do we make investment decisions. Like, what biases do I have? Part of me, when I read that, I'm like, whoa! It's like taking the field of psychology and trying to fit it in one box. I'm like, psychology is so much wider. I look on your website and you have this long list of different angles that you can take when you work with people, and I think the same thing with our psychology of money. There's so many different ways we can approach it. But let's start by knowing that there's an approach and there's a way in, not just through numbers, as we think through our relationship with money and we situate money in our lives.

Yeah, and I wonder what you would say. As I'm listening to you, I will say, I imagine many people put money and finance into its own little box, so to speak, and perhaps don't talk about it unless it's a money conversation. Yet, there is so much interconnectedness. For example, my husband, I was just saying, we are first time home owners, and we just went through this whole journey. I won't go into the saga of it. But part of what we were seeking was a home that had income potential, so there's a one-bedroom unit that we were able to renovate. Well, I feel more comfortable spending, and I didn't realize, but my husband had a number that felt for security and just his sense of stability. But I don't think we talked about it. I don't know if he knew it. But it was so much a part of our conflict around him needing a certain amount for our stability, and that was not explicit.

All this to say, many times, I'll just raise my hand, we didn't have a conversation or didn't even know that the money or the value of what it means to have it or not have it, how it shows up in certain decisions or life events. I mean, obviously this seems like a no-brainer that we should have talked about. But it's astounding to me how many people don't talk about things, and this being one of them.

Yeah, you've said so much there that I can comment on. But I'll start by saying two things. One is that, coming back to how do we start to talk about money just more generally in our lives? That's a big part of my work in the world, is helping us redefine what wealth is. I think that's a really important piece is that we have to set money aside for a second, and let's have the more important conversation of wealth. How do we define wealth? Wealth is so much more than just the material resources we have. Part of what my work does is put forth this idea of a Wealth Mandala that are based on our human needs. The needs that we have as humans are universal, the ways we satisfy them are personal, those satisfiers.

So I'm thinking of the purchase of the house. So it could be satisfying a need for protection. It could be satisfying a need for part of your physical health, your foundation. For financial stability. For participation, if you move to a community that you're really excited to be part of. So you situate the decision within the broader context of wealth, and then we start looking at, how do we get there and how do we get there in a way that doesn't put some of our other needs in jeopardy? So for example, what I'm hearing, your husband maybe had a different threshold of comfort when it came to how much he wanted in his emergency fund after everything is said and done, or as an investment. The thing with houses is that they can be very expensive ventures, and especially if you go into renovation. You talk to an architect, they're like, what's your budget? You're like, I don't know what the budget is. So it could go in so many directions. So I think part of it is saying, if we are agreeing to buy this purchase and it fits within this need, or maybe it's touching all these different needs, great. What are the different parameters that we want to work within, so it doesn't start to address some of the other needs?

The second thing I'll say to it is that, I find it so fascinating. In finances, we often talk about investments as securities. I'm like, doesn't anyone else hear that? I'm like, why did we put so much pressure on money to be securities? It does have a role in giving us a really solid foundation, but you're the therapist in the room, it can't be the source of what makes us feel secure. I think if I were to say one thing to therapists, is start to explore that when it comes to relationship to money, is how did we put our sense of security on how much we have? Because then we're stuck in that pattern where money defines us. That's what we are often rebelling against in our relationship to money. We're like: Ugh, I have this love-hate relationship with it. I need it to do all these things. But it feels confining, especially if you're earning and you don't like what you're doing for work. I mean, I could take in so many directions.

But those are two things that I would say is, let's define wealth more broadly, and then let's also start to just pay attention to how do we couple money with security? Ask ourselves, what are those deeper sources of security? Money may feel one of them.

I want to ask a little bit more about that. I'm sure those two points are interconnected, I imagine. It just reminds me, I read a chapter. I don't think I read the entire book, but I've referenced it before. It had such an impact on me. I don't know where I came across it. But it's the Smart Couples Finish Rich, I think it's David Bach. I don't know.

I don't know the name of the author, but I do know what title you're referring to.

So there's a chapter in there, I think it's chapter seven, and he's talking about values. He says, I do these workshops and I ask people. People are super enthusiastic and engaged around what they want or what they want to do, they can just pop off all kinds of things that they are aware that they need and want. But when I ask them about what matters most as far as their values, people aren't super always conscious or have it on the tip of their tongue. They're just not as connected living in the world. Yet he's like, these likely are not going to change. Our top five values are likely going to be the things that we're going to be most fulfilled if we're living aligned with. He is just talking about when we make decisions or even a life review—or not a life review, a year review—that we will look at where are we investing in what matters most, individually, and then as a couple. So I feel like it's similar to what you're describing, that if we're really aware and holding, intentionally, the things that matter, and we invest in that. It might be financial, but it might be other things.

Well, and I think so much of what I've arrived to in my work with money is that, wait a second, it's not just about accumulating wealth, it's about embodying wealth. It's really feeling that satiation and fulfillment of where you put your resources. So to your point, Jessica, is if I'm clear on my values, and that's where my resources are going, I start to create a compounding effect. We talk about compounding interests when we invest. But there's a compounding effect on right alignment that starts to fill us up from our core.

We start to feel wealthy. And I feel like the world would be radically different if we felt wealthier.

Oh my gosh, thank you. I'm just resting in that for a second.

I mean, that's why I wrote the book. I had this question, why do we have so much, and yet we feel so poor. Like, why? We all wrestle. Again, I bet there's probably not one client that walks into your office that at some point hasn't talked about money. We wrestle with it collectively. So how can we rest and settle into enoughness, how do we settle into embodying wealth, into a life of fulfillment where our resources are a reflection of our values? I mean, we would be so much happier humans.

No kidding. I wonder if you want to give an example of what that looks like, being in alignment and investing in the values that matter and feeling. I can put myself into this if you would want. But I imagine you have many examples.

Yeah, I'll give a couple examples. Again, I love working with couples, so the whole relationship. We have different relationships with money ourselves, and then in couplehood. So one of the exercises that I do, kind of my annual review with clients, is we do Wealth Mandalas, as I was describing. Every year, I have them color in. I print out this mandala, it has the 12 human needs, and they color in just how fulfilled or how satiated they are. Each year is different. We go through health concerns, and so maybe my physical health sliver isn't as colored in. But what it does is that it gives us a super clear map of like: Okay, as I'm mapping out 2025, where am I feeling actually satiated and filled, what's working there? Am I filling that need with monetary and non-monetary strategies?

That's really important. Do I know how to fulfill a need, not just throwing money at it, but because you know what? I build connection because I go on hikes with friends, for example, versus taking them out to dinner. So that's always important. How am I filling a need, am I using both monetary and non-monetary ways? Then, where are some of the areas where I'm going into this year feeling a little less full, potentially a little lack or a little more strained? You put the word in there. Then we can—in relationship with our partners, in relationship with ourselves, or anyone you're working with—be like, how do I potentially channel a little bit more resources to help me feel more satiated in that sliver?

So for example, I had some clients who actually felt really stable financially. As a financial advisor, I could say, you guys are great! You're fine. Our investments are good, you're saving well. My work is done. I was like, my work isn't done. I had them do the Wealth Mandala, and funny enough, in some of the areas, they were coming out at like a two—the area of touch or the area of participation. They were overworking and they weren't participating in their community. Or they were feeling like, I really am trying to figure out what body modality would work for me, but I haven't figured it out and I feel awkward with touch, and I want to change that. So the conversation became more, it's like having money in your bank account doesn't solve life's problems. That's where we get confused. Because I can't tell you how many people, Jessica, are like, I want enough money that I don't have to think about it. You're still going to have to. Every day you're going to wake up with new curiosities and challenges that life brings your way. So it's more interesting to ask the question: Okay, great. I've settled in some of my financial decisions and my financial muscles. But where are some of those areas that I can bring a little more attention, a little more resource, a little more support, so that I can continue to connect wealth and wellbeing?

Thank you for saying wellbeing. Because I was feeling the wellness of this mandala. It's a real comprehensive assessment tool of my wellbeing, and wealth being so closely associated to health and wellness.

100%. For me, enoughness is a human right. I think of a baby that is just born and they haven't really realized the challenges of being human. It's like, we're born with this innate sense of being enough, and we lose it over time. There's so many reasons. Again, you're the therapist in the room, I'd be curious to see your commentary there.

That's where we're overflowing with like: Oh my gosh, I know my worth. Independent on, did I lose a client, did someone fire me, did I lose my job? I still know my worth, and I have what it takes to face the challenges, because I know my worth as a human being.

That's so interesting. I love the word worth in this context, as you're describing, because it fits so well with wellness and wellbeing and sense of self, as well as financial health and stability and wealth in that way. The worthiness is just so applicable to both. As you're talking, it reminds me, there's been several times I've come across this concept of money being a tool. It's like a tool that we use, what we associate with it, what we project on it, what we make it mean, and all these things. That's what can get interesting, as far as what it represents. But would you agree?

Yes, 100% I agree. For me, money is a social technology. That's how I would put it. It's a technology that we have used. It's changed forms. It continues to change forms. It's a technology where we build trust and communication with people outside of our intimate circle. We know what a dollar bill is, we know what it represents, and so we can engage with each other through the use of money as a tool, whatever currency we choose. It's a tool that can also has its shadows, like anything. So we feel like it defines us. If I don't have enough of it, then I don't know how to exchange in the world. Where in reality, you can go exchange with people in non-monetary ways.

But what's interesting is that one of my favorite exercises is using a gestalt chair exercise with clients—having them sit down, have a conversation with money, and money ends up being not just a tool, but it's a guide, it's a mirror. It can reflect back how well we're relating with it. It's fascinating, Jessica, the things that people say. But sometimes, with that one technique, we can cut through layers of therapy and get right to the core of what is in that relationship with money. This is a relationship podcast.

You can ask for support, there's experts that can come in and give guidance. But no one—not your financial advisor, not your CPA, not your investment portfolio manager—no one should stand between you and that relationship to money. If so, you give your power away.

Again, I've done a version of what you're describing. For people listening, the gestalt is sometimes called empty chair, I think is what you're referring to. So imagine having a chair that you place beside you or some location around you, and you imagine money as its entity, sitting in the chair and having a dialogue in these prompts. I'm sure you provide prompts. One of the ones I remember, just as I was exploring this relationship, and then you could go sit in the chair and actually feel how money would respond to you. One of the things—this was years and years ago, probably maybe 16 years ago—money felt ignored by me. I wasn't really giving it a lot of credit. Not that I wasn't engaging. Well, it had a lot to do with student loan debt, to be honest, that I just was like, we'll just ignore it. I mean, I've paid, I've been consistently paying, but just the amortization schedule. I'm like, I can't look at it. So it was really fascinating. I don't know that I would've, to your point, actually had that awareness or that insight, had I not done that exercise around how I was relating to money and just what that means and what that represents. So it's very powerful.

Do you remember what money said to you?

Oh my gosh. It was something along the lines of like: I want to be in relationship with you, I want to feel connected, and you sometimes don't give me the time of day or you don't really pay attention or look at me.

So when you put that in the context, imagine if your partner was telling you that, you're like: Of course, I'm not paying attention, why do you want to be in relationship with me? So thank you for sharing that, it's a vulnerability. If I share mine, I remember the first time I sat and had my conversation with money, it was similar. I was a student. I wasn't dealing with student loan debt, but I was dealing with credit card debt, because I trying to start my own private practice. As you know, being an entrepreneur is something that they don't necessarily teach, so you have to figure it out. It's tough because you have your practice and then your business hat owner.

I remember, Jessica, sitting down and having the conversation with money. Money was like: Elizabeth, you are smothering me, you're holding on too tight. You want me to be all these things, and it's like, I can't function. So loosen your grip and let me breathe. I was like, oh my gosh, that sounds like some boyfriends I've had.

Because you're like: Okay, great, I can bring that. Money doesn't want to feel that it has to solve all my problems, let me ask what are the ways that it wants me to show up more. So you start to have this dynamic conversation. That's when money truly feels like a guide and even a friend. I actually chat with money often in my days, because I just have this relationship with it. I have it framed around the house, just like I would frame a picture of a family member. I say hello. I have my money jar right behind me. It's like, it is a family member that I engage with often.

Wow. Well, the thing that occurs to me, even as you're talking, is that sometimes people can feel internally conflicted. If we're operating the best that we've known how, different parts of ourselves might be in conflict. So if we're not giving room and space to be conscious about, let's look at this, let's have a conversation. I mean, it's like if we're having, you mentioned friendship. If we're having a conflict with a friend, one path towards resolution is like, let's have a conversation. Let's just try to lower the intensity, and let's just get curious. Let's try to create some safety and just try to understand each other. That's a great place to begin to build some bridges and to perhaps work together to create some deeper intimacy or to repair. People feel this with different parts of themselves, particularly around money.

Well, and I think another path—let's just say that friend doesn't want to sit down and talk to you, because it's been too fiery—is you can take ownership and be like, what did I bring to the table, what patterns of mine were maybe unkind or not useful? So again, if we start to ask those questions in our relationship to money, notice, it becomes so much more layered and nuanced. To your point, we don't talk enough about money because we think we have to talk numbers. Do I have to say how much I earned last year, or how much I lost in an investment? It's like, no. There are so many ways to talk about money, again, non-numerically, by just saying: what's your first money memory, what's the best thing that someone taught you, what's the worst thing someone taught you, what's the best risk you took? We just start talking about our relationship, our experience of it, what we learned, what we didn't learn. We just bring it more into the cultural milieu and we engage with it as just a normal part of our lives. I think that would have a tremendous effect.

Because in reality, much like being in any relationship, there's days that we're going to get along and there's days that we're not going to get along. I think that's the thing with money, a lot of times people get too attached to it going in one direction, which is either up or into the bank account. People do not like taking money out, and they don't like seeing money drop. I'm like, wait a second, do you get mad at your partner if they wake up cranky one day? They just woke up cranky. You may not engage, which is what to do when it drops, don't engage. Let them be cranky, they will hopefully smile. So it's just like letting money also have its cycles and not taking it so personal.

No kidding. I'm just breathing because I appreciate how much room and space you create for money to have a place, and just to be very visible, to be very conscious, and really respect the ebbs and flows. That is typically part of the sequence or the ebb and flow of abundance. We even look at breath—the inhale, the exhale, just the giving and the receiving. This is really important.

Well, I know one of our goals in our conversation was to talk about breaking free from societal pressure in couplehood. Before we pivot to that, you commented about couples, and I just feel like it's worth mentioning and what we've already talked about. I have a client that I've recently started working with. Unfortunately, when he engaged with me, it wasn't in the couple dynamic, his wife wasn't interested in getting any support. I think after the first session, he was like, actually we're now getting a divorce. Anyway, one of their major issues was money, and learning a little bit more about his experience, it was as if they had agreements and then she would go rogue and do what she wanted. It wasn't even so much about the money. Yes, that was challenging, but it was what it felt like to him that he couldn't rely on her to keep an agreement as far as money. He didn't feel respected, felt quite disrespected, didn't feel safe. I mean, they have two kids, all the things. Again, it's this representation of all the things we're talking about around relationship.

Yeah. I think a lot of what you're talking about right now is just trust. Like, can you trust another human with commitments that you have? I've been in similar situations with clients who have walked in the door and they're like: Oh my gosh, I cannot trust how my partner utilizes this resource. So think of it this way, it's more like this resource. We could say the same thing about, I don't trust how my partner uses their sexual energy. So when it comes to what we don't trust them using as a resource, then that's a great example of when potentially we need to separate out the resources. There's cases where clients come to me and I'm like, actually, you all would do better with separate checking accounts. Let's have a joint one that pays the mortgage, but separate it out. Because this one really wants to save and this one really wants to spend, and you all are in conflict because of how you engage with resources.

And you haven't figured out how to work together.

No, exactly. But notice that when we start, it becomes less about money. There's a stat, I can't remember how many divorces are about money. But if you start digging deeper, it's not about money. Money is the outward expression of an inward experience. I think, to your point, it's so internal, that conflict that we have. So I think it's really important. Because I think what happens there, Jessica, is that, in the case of your client, their relationship to money gets stifled, because they would do it differently.

It doesn't get upheld and honored.

No. So you start to feel disempowered, because you're like, this is not how I would treat money. Money would be like: No, this is not how you would treat me, this kind of sucks. So let's separate out, and probably have shared childcare expenses or spousal support or who knows what from there, and that's going to go into the communal pot that will still be used. But it'll give us some breathing room to be like, what's my relationship with money, how would I do it? Sometimes, even for the experiment, if you're in a couplehood or in a relationship, take a thousand dollars each for a month and say, how would we spend this? I'm sure you would learn so much about yourselves. Have an amount, it could be $1000, it could be $500, it could be $100. But let yourselves also bring some playfulness into how you explore your relationship to money. You can be like: Oh, this is what I did with it. Afterwards you're like, what felt good, what felt wasteful? In a non-judgmental way, just explore.

Because the reality is that we weren't taught this growing up. If we were having these conversations growing up, we would start to learn how to make these decisions. But we're not. So then we come to it as adults, with adulting and mortgages and taxes. You're like: Oh my God, it's starting to get stressful, to your point, with the student loan. But a lot of people either push money away, you hold on too tight, which was mine, there's different ways that we react. But it's in reaction to something that's not been resolved or we don't feel the ease, which I do think is possible.

It's so important what you're encouraging around just whatever exercise or how people start to have these conversations, a sense of playfulness and a sense of real, it seems like safety. Even going back to wealth, that if we're really looking at this as a resource or a tool and how this supports us to be in alignment, living into our worth and into our wealth, then how do we look at our tendencies and let each person perhaps say, how does this fit with being in alignment? Not from that judgy shame kind of place, but just curiosity.

Exactly, curiosity and inquiry. I often tell people, break it down to a simple nugget. So for example, because I hear this one all the time, inflation is real. Prices went up in the grocery store and restaurants, and then people are like: Wow, gosh, I can't believe that bill is so high each month. Pick one. As a couple, pick one that you're like, let's just track this category for the month. Let all the other ones go for a second. Then you start to be like, let's track our expenditures, and where can we land within the parameters that feel good to us? Also that feel within reality of are you feeding a family of five, and it might just be the most expensive time of your life because you have growing teenagers. I can often tell from cashflow, I'm like, this person doesn't have kids because they're eating out much more than they're buying groceries.

But I think it's really important to know the non-negotiables. We all have non-negotiables when it comes to expenditures, because again, that's where our values are. So when I have clients that are musically oriented, they may have music lessons or music instruments, and that's a non-negotiable. If I were to take that out, it's a negative return on their investment of time. They're like, why am I working if I can't find the things that make me happy? But you know what, maybe I don't have to take as many Ubers and Lyfts. So finding those non-negotiables, understanding what are those areas that potentially we waste out of convenience because we live very fast-paced lives, and then bringing mindfulness and awareness. It starts to become fun. You're like, actually, if I start channeling some of the resources at a place where I feel like I'm leaking towards an area that I feel would actually bring more enjoyment. Let's plan that trip that we've been wanting to do, or let's help this neighbor that we know needs help, or let's pay off this debt because it's just rattling in the back of my mind and I'm ready to create a plan around it. So tackling one thing often is really helpful when it comes to our relationship to money.

Thank you. It just occurs to me that this is a form of return on investment when we're really looking at what matters and what's of high value. Well, let's talk about the societal pressures. Are we talking about the old school kind of keeping up with the Joneses? Tell me.

I think a couple of things. I mean, comparison is something that we deal with often. Not just keeping up with the Joneses literally, but now with social media virtually, it's really hard to be like, shut out the noise, who am I myself? But I think too, when it comes to money, Jessica, the societal pressures come with how do we define wealth, how do we define success? Success is so tied to money. How do we define our worth? Am I charging enough? Am I squirming when people say no or yes to me? So do you see how, societally, we've given money too much power when it comes to defining who we are and what's our metric of success? It could be keeping up with the Joneses, but a lot of it is internal—our internal barometers of what makes me a successful person.

I have a book coming out, and I could easily go down the metrics of like how many sales do I have. One of the things that someone asked me to do before was, what are my metrics of success, before the book comes out? I'm like, you know what? I want to feel like I got a standing ovation for my ancestors, because I wrote this book for them. I'm like, let me create a ritual with my community to give me that experience, everything else is golden. But I had to pull back from a metric that easily could have come from the outside.

And you had to define success for yourself.

Exactly. So if there's takeaways, your audience can be like, what is success for me? Is success too tied to money? Is that something I learned along the way? Can I hear the voice of the person who's telling me that's true? But starting to be like, let me have a right alignment or a right relationship with success, a right relationship with money, a right relationship with wealth. What are they for me? If you start there, you'd be surprised of how you can create a little bit more freedom, a little bit more spaciousness, today in your relationship with money, or today in the way that you define your path with it. I think part of me is like, I'm in a little radical revolution of helping people take back their power when it comes to wealth, because we get to define it.

I'm also aware that this is likely very collectively unconscious. We're not even aware of how insidious some of this pressure can be, and that it might start to needle at us in just various forms. Additionally, how tied it is to perhaps belonging, in a greater sense.

I literally had a conversation with a client today. There are clients who live here in the Bay Area, but they did three months abroad in a little village in Italy with their two young kids. So before they start school, let's go find this program, I think they were working the land. I mean, super local village, not really spending a lot, and they came back. I literally just had this conversation with them. They came back so changed because they were so full from that place of belonging, that village life of being able to open the doors—kids are running in and out, everyone is taking care of it. 

But what was interesting is that we had a conversation around what was the interference that started to become more clear around their habits around money. They're like: Oh my gosh, we've been back for a week and we're already starting to see our conversation is, do we need to upgrade our car? I'm like, that's interesting. Or in the village, if you ordered something from Amazon, it went to the communal hub, and everyone saw what you purchased. So now I'm like, oh my gosh, use that as a guideline. When you go to Amazon to buy something for immediate gratification, ask yourself, what would it feel like if it went to my neighbor's house first? So do you see where when we start to put it within a metrics of community and village and a more transparency, some of our habits might change.

I'm just thinking about that for a minute.

I think where it comes back to the belonging piece is that they came back having felt so fulfilled of living in a smaller knit local community for three months, that it's almost like their needs to spend just naturally went down because they were so full.

Well, and again, we all have this human need for belonging. It's so fundamental and elemental to our being. I do think that the desire to feel accepted, to feel valued in community is important. Perhaps, as you mentioned, the virtual space or other spaces that we might perceive that we need X, Y, and Z to be better liked, and I think this exists. I mean, we look at marketing, and there's lots of intelligence around helping people be attracted based on values and belonging and these type of things. I'm not discrediting that. I just think what we're talking about here is becoming more conscious of our choices—why we're doing what we're doing, what really matters. The societal pressures, unexamined, we could be pulled in a lot of different ways.

Well, and I think, again, going back, I really like just simple concepts. So if we go back to the Wealth Mandala, belonging is one of the needs on that mandala. 

That's interesting. What is that codependency telling me about my ability to also fulfill this need in non-monetary ways? So I think, to the need around belonging, is that we can belong because we get to participate by engaging in some communities that maybe there's an admissions ticket. I'm just giving you an example, or different ways. But I think the true belonging really comes at the vulnerability of showing people who we really are.

Yeah. That's one of the things my husband wanted to watch, there's a documentary, I don't know if it's called buying, but it was this acquisition of all the stuff and just the waste. I think I've had clients talk about buying things unnecessarily, and that it doesn't actually help satiate the need of belonging. We could buy a lot of things and think that that will actually help us satiate this need, when in fact, it might actually have an opposite effect.

So practical, for people who maybe aren't in the habit of examining this more consciously, what you did with your book is just such a beautiful example of how would this be, or what's a measure or a metric of success even before it gets released. That's a real prompt to get more information and the inquiry that you're talking about. How do you help people start to do this that aren't in the habit of it?

Yeah. There's a very simple practice that I haven't mentioned, but I'll leave it as a nugget, is I encourage people to do a 30-day satiation challenge. So we're familiar with that from the gratitude challenge. So imagine, for 30 days, you write down a list of what you're grateful for. Gratitude and satiation are slightly different. Gratitude is very much a heart feeling that we did something or we received something. Satiation is visceral. It's in our body. It's almost like: Oh my gosh, I just had a meal that just hit the spot. It wasn't like those calories that I felt gross, I didn't overeat/undereat. It just hit the spot. So the same thing with satiation.

So the way that the 30-day satiation challenge is, grab a new notebook, hopefully one that you have, so you don't have to go buy one. Grab a pen, you have something to write within your house. At the end of every day, ask yourself, what were three things that satiated me, that satisfied me? Just write them down. So for example, if I were to do that today, I got to go to Zumba this morning, so dancing and singing and community just satiates me. I got to have breakfast with my daughter, so being able to just have those five minutes just satiated me. And I had meaningful conversations with my clients. Those would be my three lists. So do it for 30 days, don't analyze it. At the end of 30 days, I actually tell people, take a break for a week. After a week, come back and read it through in one sitting. What are some of the patterns, the themes, what'd you notice? How are you satisfying yourself, and what need do you then connect it to? But you can, for 30 days, get some really good data. It's a different type of financial data, but it's still data that can help you understand how do you build wealth more effectively and consciously in your life.

Wow, that sounds like a really revealing and also informative exercise to really come into dialogue, come into greater consciousness around our needs.

Yeah. And what I would say, Jessica, is it's a great new year, new you practice. I can't tell you how many people reach out at the beginning and they're like, this is the year I'm going to organize my finances. Great, but start with this one. Start with the satiation practice, because it will actually allow you to go to your spreadsheets or whatever programs you use to your finances, with a different awareness of what's the why. Because I think the reality too, going back to the societal pressure, we don't ask the why in all of it. There's all of this conversation about moving the goalpost. The book, the Psychology of Money, came out, and he was talking about moving the goalposts because we're not clear on why we're doing things. So we get to that goal, and guess what, we just move it further along, because what else do we do? So I think the satiation practice can help you really feel the why behind it, so that when you achieve those goals. So for example, you all bought your first home. Oh my gosh, I hope you walk into the door and you just stop and you take it in, like: Oh, this feels amazing. Take it in because you accomplished it, and let yourself be satiated, without having to think about the renovation. Just take in that you accomplished that goal.

Yes, thank you. I mean, that is allowing for the nurturing of the return, when we're talking about wellbeing, we're talking about worth, we're talking about really living into this alignment. If we thought we were going to feel really satiated and we didn't, that's also good information.

It's almost like picking stocks. It's picking what are those strategies that actually bring return and that can compound that interest, versus the ones that you're like: Ooh, that didn't do too well, let me take that one out of my portfolio. Think of it as a wealth portfolio.

I love it. I can see how, in relationship, this is super helpful. Because if we talk about the societal pressures, and people aren't necessarily examining or being super conscious about their tendencies as it relates to the comparison or whatever one needs to do, or what they're doing to so-called be accepted in the world or in community, that might be different, as we've been talking about. Partners will have different ways of being as it relates to money or society and belonging. So I imagine we're already talking about it, but is there anything else you want to say around how to negotiate the societal pressures as a couple? Because I think what we're talking about is just really examining, getting in touch with those deeper, and then being able to talk about it together, and then we can have each other's back a little bit more. But help me.

Yeah, I would say a couple things there. I think first and foremost, if I were working with a couple, I would say each person needs to take ownership of their relationship to money, first and foremost. Yet, you can be each other's money best friend. And what I mean by that is, pick any book, but go through a series of practices together knowing that the output will be different, but that you're supporting each other and going through a process of awareness and inquiry. So I think if you can take responsibility for your relationship to money and do the inquiry, be each other's kind, best friend in that, provide a container for unconditional acceptance of what emerges. Remember, acceptance doesn't mean approval. Acceptance is just letting there be what is so that we can work with it.

So now you roll up the sleeves and you become each other's best team. Instead of often what I find with couples, who are like: Oh my gosh, you're different to me when it comes to money. I mean, my husband and I couldn't be more different when it came to money. We could be each other's worst nightmares, and there's been times where we have been. But we have managed to become each other's best friend. Because he's inspiring me to do something that I don't naturally do, and I'm inspiring him to do something that I don't naturally do. Because we've been at this conversation for a decade—we know our money patterns, we know our money beliefs, we know our triggers, we know where we fall into the hole and we help each other get out of it. So I think that's the key distinction.

Once we start to have a relationship with money, Jessica, then it's not you against your partner. Instead of that conflict that happens when you're looking at someone, it's like: No, let's be side-by-side. Here's our relationship to money. What are you discovering? What are you discovering? Then you start to create something together. Then if you're parents, you get to turn around and be like, actually there's a different way to teach this to our kids.

No kidding! This is ideally what we would do as it relates to anything emotional or sexual. It's the revealing, it's the vulnerability, it's the learning and exploring.

Oh, I'm just so grateful for you. I'm like, I want more of this. Tell people how they can learn more about what you're doing. Obviously, tell us a little bit more about your book.

By all means. So A: I'm happy to come back anytime. I love these conversations. So if you want more, I'm happy to come back. I have a website, which is ElizabethHusserl.com. On that website, you'll see links to order the book, or at your favorite bookstore if you want to support local bookstores, by all means. And on the website, I provide free resources. This is my gift to the world and I want people to just redefine how they think about money. So you'll find a free exercise on the Wealth Mandala, you'll find an exercise on transforming your money story, and you'll find some information around money archetypes. It's meant to give you tools to work with by yourself, in partnership and relationship. So there's a lot of resources, and I'll continue to add to it. I have links to other podcasts so you can hear different perspectives, not just the relationship side, but other sides.

I think the more we talk about money, the more relief. That's something that I viscerally saw in you, Jessica, throughout this podcast. You're like, let me just take that in, let me just slow down, let me feel more ease. That is possible. The book is called The Power of Enough. How do we find the power of enough? But the subtitle is Finding Joy in Your Relationship to Money. You can find joy in your relationship to money, I 100% believe that.

Lovely. Well, and I'm also feeling just your background and training and interest, and how you combine the financials, the psychology, even some spirituality. It's this very whole approach. Perhaps some people feel a little turned off if it's just one dimension, so you're offering a lot of dimension here. For people who want to work with you, do you do workshops? It sounds like you do advising. Are you taking new patients or clients? Not patients, Dr. Finance.

Not patients, clients. I tend to have a full practice. But I am part of a firm, so it's many of us advisors. By all means, my information you can contact. Now that the book is out, I can lift my head, and what I want to be doing is more workshops so I can reach more people from that capacity. Because as you know, one-on-one client hours, there's only so many in the day. But when it comes to being able to work in more group format, that's what I'm hoping to do. So stay tuned for that.

Stay tuned. Well, I'll make sure to have all of the links that you've mentioned, to your book, to your website. It sounds like lots of ways to engage with your work more. I am so grateful for all of your offering.

Thank you, Jessica. I'll leave us with, even just this podcast is enough. How do we practice just knowing this moment of engagement? This meaningful conversation that you and I had that ended up in someone's ears, that's enough to start a radical revolution in your relationship to money. So trusting that as well.

Beautiful.

Thank you for having me.

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