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About this episode

Is communication the roadblock in your intimate relationships? Misunderstandings, hurt feelings, and emotional escalations can often make navigating partnerships seem like a daunting task. The challenge lies in the fact that our lives are intertwined with others who have their own unique experiences and perspectives. What if embracing life's uncertainties and the practice of presence could transform these relational dynamics into something more harmonious and fulfilling?

In this episode, we explore the art of deep listening and presence as powerful tools to enhance your relationship dynamics. Through enriching conversations, we'll delve into practices that can help you reconnect not only with yourself but also with your significant other. You will gain insights into how embracing vulnerability, understanding emotional activations, and learning to listen deeply can open the door to more profound connections. Whether you're aiming to resolve conflict or simply want to deepen intimacy, this episode offers the guidance needed to transform challenges into opportunities for growth and connection.

Dr. Shahrzad Jalali, Psy.D., is a licensed clinical psychologist with expertise in trauma resolution, psychoanalysis, and relational dynamics. She guides clients in transforming emotional challenges into growth opportunities using a holistic approach that combines psychological, existential, and body-based techniques. Grounded in Jungian psychology, Dr. Jalali emphasizes cognitive restructuring and somatic healing to address trauma at its roots. Her upcoming 2025 book explores these themes, providing readers with practical insights into self-empowerment and resilience.

Dr. Shahrzad Jalali identifies as Iranian-American, with a cultural background that blends Persian heritage with American influences. Her work integrates multicultural perspectives, enriching her therapeutic approach and fostering a deep understanding of diverse cultural experiences.

Episode Highlights

05:44 How misunderstandings and emotional clashes in relationships often stem from individual differences in coping with life's challenges.

08:53 The importance of metacognition and shifting perspectives to help navigate difficulties and develop partnership resilience.

14:11 The cultural differences in emotional expression and the unrealistic societal expectation of constant happiness.

19:11 The art of truly listening to oneself and others as a crucial step toward emotional understanding and connection.

23:32 The illusory nature of control and how embracing vulnerability and curiosity can lead to deeper connections and personal growth.

32:32 The cultural and personal barriers that impede meaningful dialogue and how societal pressures influence our interactions.

36:10 Incorporating practices of emotional and psychological hygiene to navigate the complexities of daily life more effectively.

42:55 Recognizing and evaluating the personal and societal beliefs that shape our behavior and emotional responses.

44:22 Tools and approaches are discussed for identifying and reframing insecurities and fears to foster healthier relationships.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Practice deep listening: Cultivate the art of listening by being fully present and attentive, refraining from planning your response while the other person is speaking.
• Embrace emotional awareness: Regularly check in with your feelings and sensations, understanding them as valuable information guiding you towards what you need.
• Create space for self-reflection: Set aside time daily to explore your thoughts and emotions to deepen your connection with yourself.
• Evaluate belief systems: Take time to identify and reflect on your core beliefs, challenging those that might limit your growth and reframing them for healthier perspectives.
• Prioritize presence in relationships: Engage with loved ones by being fully present, prioritizing deep connections over distractions like technology.
• Cultivate curiosity and vulnerability: Approach interactions with others with an open heart and mind, ready to explore unknown territories without fear of judgment.
• Use emotional triggers as guides: When you feel emotionally triggered, pause and explore the underlying reasons, allowing them to guide you to deeper understanding.
• Integrate forgiveness practices: Regularly practice self-forgiveness and extend forgiveness to others, releasing judgment and allowing for compassion and healing.

Mentioned

From Pain to Purpose (book) (*soon to be published)

Evolve in Love (program)

Connect with Dr. Shahrzad Jalali

Websites: drjalaliandassociates.com

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/shahrzad-jalali-psyd-2b547320

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If you have a topic you would like it to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

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Episode Transcript

Dr. Jalali, it's so lovely to have you joining us here today.

It's lovely to be here. Thank you for having me.

Yes. We are going to be talking about some of the fundamental aspects of just relational dynamics, also communication, and some of the things that might interfere or make that challenging and some of your suggestions. So I'm looking forward to this. Many, many people identify communication as a roadblock. So I'm looking forward to diving in.

Before we do that, are you willing to share what got you interested in this being an aspect of your career, as far as supporting people in relationship and really focusing on relational dynamics?

That's a great question. 

Because each of our perspectives is different and we are all trying to figure this out and problem-solve and go forward, and either survive or thrive life, depending on how we're going about it, we tend to clash a lot with each other. As a result of that, there are a lot of misunderstandings, there's a lot of hurt feelings, there's a lot of negative emotions getting stirred up, as we go through everyday life and have different interactions, whether with our loved ones or colleagues or people that come across our path.

In order to make this process easier, I think we all have to learn how to, first of all, relate to ourselves. I think the most important relationship in the world is the one we have with ourselves, to begin with. Then obviously, how to relate to others, and not to take things personally when they do stare up, and develop a psychological perspective in order to be able to deal with these tensions in the best way possible. Because God knows, none of us need extra problems getting through the everyday challenges. So I suppose it's one of the major issues we all deal with on a daily basis, and anything that can take away some stress from that, I think is very helpful.

Absolutely. So as you're describing this, it almost sounds as though part of how you're approaching this is more from a meta-perspective, almost. It's like sometimes we think about meta thinking, which is thinking about thinking, and it sounds like you're looking at our approach and how we orient through the world and just how all of the challenges exist. That if we can hold that with some perspective, that that can really afford us to not get so sucked in to perhaps the things that might hurt us or challenge us, but that we can know that that's part of. It's almost like an expectation, part of orienting and looking at life and living that in partnership. Because really, we're focusing on intimate relationship. Am I hearing that? And with that, there's a level of care, that there is expecting to have some difficulty and hardship, and how we can negotiate that can really be a big factor in what we experience.

I love the fact that you brought metacognition to it, because I think it sheds light on my view of this whole dynamic. Especially the culture we live in nowadays, I think we tend to label a lot of our normal human emotions as negative things that we need to get rid of. Like, if I have anxiety, or if I feel sadness, or if I feel hurt in some shape or form, we either want to get rid of it in some easy way, whether that's true a pill or some form of distraction, or we feel like we need to take revenge or take action and make the other person apologize or however we come to view it. Whereas, all these emotional charges that show up for us on a daily basis, essentially is the wisdom of our psyche talking to us and pointing us very gently—they're not our enemies, they're actually our friends, if we can learn to relate to them that way—in the direction that we need to go.

So let's say I tend to have a lot of anxiety as a result of overwhelming myself. So the anxiety shows up to tell me: Wait a second, you need to go about this in a different way. Now, if I haven't developed that metacognition, and if I can't see myself and actually label this for what it is, I tend to yell at my husband and say: See, you put this here, you don't even understand, you cause more anxiety in my everyday life, and you don't help me. That's a perfect example of an emotion being misinterpreted and being blamed on somebody else, that can very gently be actually addressed and redirected if I take the time to look at it with perspective.

I so share that philosophy, Shahrzad. Just as you're really welcoming that these emotional activations can be used as a gentle nudge to give direction t o what is emerging. Because I think there's a falsehood in society, if you will, that we're trying to achieve some harmonious happy state. That that's the goal, and if anything disrupts that, that something is wrong, and then looking for the outside source. So this is a real shift around: Oh okay, can I use what I might feel as an emotional upset as a source of information to help guide? And also, not expecting that everything is going to be quite pleasurable all the time.

I don't know where that notion even comes from. I come from the eastern world, and I think in my culture, there's a lot more space for those heavy emotions, that the western world I feel like has no space for and constantly wants to get rid of. But even if you think about the whole notion of life, from the moment a baby's born, the baby comes into the world crying. Well, I mean, the biological reasons aside, it has left this comfortable, contained space, and now comes into this world that doesn't necessarily meets its needs accordingly. It has to go through a lot of pain of learning how to talk, how to walk, how to express emotions, and everything else that follows. If you think about a person's life trajectory after that, it's just one difficult step after the other. I don't know where this notion came from, that throughout this process, we're supposed to be happy all the time. 

I so agree with you, and I really appreciate you bringing the cultural perspective, and how perhaps there's different focuses or ways in which cultural messages shape us and influence our perspective. One of the things that I'm hearing in what you were describing is this gentleness, this real welcoming and even just permission, whether or not it's culturally in our family environment or intimate relationship. How do you help people perhaps shift away from—as you gave the example of: you did this to me, or this is the problem—pointing outwards, and shift the attention more towards the inner experience, and also, if you will, if I'm hearing you, this gentle welcoming or allowing. Can you say a little bit more about that?

Absolutely. I think at the core of inner work is reconnecting with the self. Because if we're able to actually have a very well-rounded relationship with ourselves, most of us are very emotionally independent, and we can find a way to navigate our inner battles and work through them. In fact, the notion of boredom, for example, comes from the fact that we don't have that connection with the self. So we're continuously looking outside of ourselves for something to fulfill that lack of connection, which unfortunately nothing ever does, because things do temporarily, but eventually they fade.

Now, one of the first things I start doing with patients is inviting them to reconnect with the self. Because at one point, all of us came from wholeness and connection. But again, going back to the whole notion of difficulty in life, as we go through life and as we grow up and as we face the challenges that we do, little by little, one of the ways that we learn how to manage our emotions and how to survive life is disconnection. Now, if we don't know how to do it properly—if we don't gain knowledge that disconnection is part of life, but we want to come back to connection after disconnect—then we get caught in the disconnect and we stay there. That's where we lose any ownership of our inner world and our emotional state.

So what I tend to do with patients is to invite them to reestablish that connection, in ways that feel safe for them, in increments that feel manageable for them. Then I guide them through this process. Because when you first want to do this, to tell the truth, it's very difficult to do on your own. You feel like it's just overwhelming, too much, and you don't know how to deal with it. So you kind of need a guide, not that I can do much, but I can hold up a light and show them that they're not alone in the process, and every time they get lost, I can nudge them back on their path. Until they eventually learn how to do this on their own. Once you can do this, you always have that reference to go back to anytime you get stuck. So it starts with an invitation and some learning of how to relate to the language of your dreams and your unconscious. 

We're too busy, we don't make room, yes. I appreciate that this is perhaps a whole masterclass that you could offer on how this is done. Is there any tip that you would want to suggest for people that could make a little bit more room for this self-inquiry or reconnecting? Because just on an aside, when I was hearing you talk about how we move and develop in life and get certain messages, that perhaps we will be told or get an experience that a part of ourselves is not okay. So we almost have a separation from that aspect, or we have it fragmented, to be in belonging, to be in connection. So there's these almost fragmented parts of ourselves that we pushed out of the realm of acceptability.

Absolutely, that's exactly what happens. I would say if I were to leave your viewers with one word that could be helpful in starting this process, it would be to listen—something that unfortunately most of us don't know how to do. When I was in the process of studying to become a psychologist, it's one of the first things I learned. Psychology was my second career. I almost finished a PhD in a different field of work. And when I came to this, I was an adult starting a second career, and I realized I don't know how to listen. I hear, but I don't really listen. Because when I'm hearing them, I'm continuously thinking of the next thing to say or how to defend myself or how to present a counter offer, whatever the dynamic may be. Then I started to look into it and came to the realization that listening is an art by itself, that is unfortunately lost upon us. I don't know how, but somehow we are more talkers than listeners. We all have something to say and not enough space to take in what is being said.

Now, again, taking it back to our relationship with our self, I think the problem is we don't even listen to ourselves. We are continuously trying to convince ourselves of what to do or what's wrong, or punish ourselves for not abiding by that which we think we should, or all the shoulds and shouldn'ts that society puts on us. But I don't think we ever listen to what it is that I want—me separate from my family of origin, me separate from my society, me separate from my career, me as a human that has value. I have certain inner needs that if I don't listen, I'm never going to know what they are, because I'm continuously just prescribing these needs. For example, you need to be successful, you need to look this way, you need to behave this way, you need to be a calm person. Like, what if I'm not? You know how much, to your point, fragmentation that causes within you? That I need to be this calm, nice person, but I am actually a very anxious, chaotic person. So I must be a very bad human being. Half of my energy is going to go into just trying to fight this inner chaos that's now in front of me, instead of, to your point, embracing myself in my totality.

Oh my goodness, I absolutely so appreciate how you are focusing and really emphasizing the importance of this. Because as I was prepping for this interview with you in some of your questions, I can see how this cuts right through, whether or not it's listening with self or listening to other, and the incredible power. I love the use of the word, it's the art. It's creative.

One thing that I'm thinking about, so I just recently flew to see some family and I was on the plane, and I had a moment. I was like, I guess I'll watch something. I was looking for, speaking of masterclass, it was something on brain science, and they were really reiterating just how much uncertainty is an expenditure. Our whole physiological system is always looking for the homeostasis and balance, and when we're overextending and the stress of all of that. But just the very fact of uncertainty. So when you're speaking about this incessant framing of what we need to be or what someone else should be, it's such a control, in an attempt perhaps to have more certainty. But if we look at what you're really recommending here, the deep listening, I can say for myself, when I hold space for myself and when I hold space for my husband, it is unknown territory, and it feels vulnerable to be in this unknown, and there's a lot of mystery there. Would you like to say more?

Exciting! Well, because see, one thing that's causing a lot of distress in society, from what I see in my clinical practice, is because we don't go into that space that you've just so beautifully described, we're on autopilot trying to get through life. Then in that space, I can't think of a better word, there's no essence. There's death, there is darkness. There is no movement, no fluidity. Things just stop. There is no creativity. Now, the moment we shift that and take it to this space—that I'm just going to sit here and I don't know what's going to come out of it, but I'm very interested to see, and I'm just going to allow it to be—then something is born in that space, like you were describing in your dynamic with your husband. Those are the moments that things shift, whether it's an internal shift for us, or a relational shift between us and somebody else, or a concept. People come to me all the time: I'm stuck in this space in my work, I can't go ahead, I don't appreciate where I am anymore. It's the same dynamic. Because you define it in a certain way and you show up every day and you try to go about it that way, you can't solve a problem with the same mindset that you used to create it.

You created a frame and you're in that frame and bouncing around, but there's no real movement to expand beyond that. This is so important. One of the things you had as a talking point is deep conversation, so this seems like a perfect place to begin to talk about this.

Before we go there, mentioning the vulnerability, I can say, as you described, having a support person, a therapist, or someone that can hold the space and offer guidance or offer nudging, when I've had this offered to me in my own therapeutic work, it's powerful to invest into myself and this unknown, someone who can hold the unknown. I did some somatic work and I have training in somatic work, but the body is also another way in which it speaks, and not this narrative that we justify, rationalize, and explain, and all the things that you're talking about. It's quite profound.

So I'm curious what you would say about vulnerability. Then also, as you were describing, if we are in more of a practice, even though it is still unknown. I mean, with my husband, he is much more nonverbal than I am. He is more body-centered, and sometimes my pacing, if I don't slow down, I will miss things. I will not fully grasp what he means when he uses certain words, because it means something different for him. So something to your point about birthing or something new emerging, I can very much say, I would never access that level of understanding had I not slowed down and deeply listened. Because so often, in relationships, especially when we've had a history with someone, we're likely going to assume that we think we know, when we don't. So the vulnerability, and then also just the second point about, even though it's still a mystery, I trust it more. Because I have a little bit more of a relationship with the creativity, the unknown, that it's not this scary thing always. Sometimes it's scary, but I trust it a little more. Can you speak to either one of those elements?

Yes, I'm actually going to connect them for you. So what is vulnerability? Vulnerability is: I trust that I'll be safe. Because when we're not being vulnerable, it's that I am afraid of going there. There is an emotional component to it, there is a physical component to it, there's a social component to it, and all those things allude to me feeling enough sense of comfort to allow myself to go there.

Now, we've created, from a societal perspective, a false sense of control over life, because it gives us some level of safety. You and I woke up this morning, and we made it to this session to speak to each other today. But if you think about it, a million things could have gone wrong for either one of us, and we could have very easily just not made it to this moment. So in a world that has so much uncertainty, people are dying in this world every minute. Did they know they were going to die in the next minute? No, a lot of them are accidents, a lot of them are heart attacks, a lot of them are things that just happen out of thin air that no one ever knows. 

So the notion of control isn't as important as we have built it up to be. Now, if we can gain that perspective, to take it back to how we started the conversation, which is metacognition, then we can say, vulnerability in essence means for me to give up this control. But since I don't have any control, then I'm not really giving up anything. I'm just allowing myself to be. Once I can do that, then I think I have the ability to explore my surroundings with curiosity, which is that childhood state of mind that we all have and we lose as we go through life. Now, creativity and connection reside in that state. At the end of the day, no one, that we know of at least, has survived this life. So we're all going to exit at one point. The point is to live every moment to the best of our ability, whatever that means for you, for me, for somebody else. Because every person's story is different and has a different significance. But for that to happen, I have to be present in that moment. For that to happen, I have to be vulnerable, curious, connected. I have to listen. Do you see how all these things go hand in hand?

Absolutely. I love what you just said about how the creativity and connection reside or are made more possible by this present, curious, being state.

Yes. It feels better to be in there as well. I feel like, at least for me, it takes the pressure away. There's always so much pressure. So if you can access it, I think naturally, we want to go into it more than this other state that we have come to see as more productive.

Absolutely. So can we segue into the deep conversation? It's probably very similar to what we're talking. Is there anything you would describe what deep conversation is that might be a little bit more specific?

Deep conversation, from this perspective that I'm alluding to, refers to my inner being, speaking to your inner being. I think what you and I are doing at this moment, this is a great example of it. We're not necessarily afraid of what we may say to each other or how we may hurt each other, or we're not trying to prove each other right or wrong, or we don't have a particular agenda. We have an intention to connect with each other. Through that, you allow yourself to access that part of you that really resonates with your true self, and I allow myself to do the same thing. So two dynamics are connecting with each other, not out of fear or concern, but more from a vulnerable state of being.

Yeah. Well, I'm touched by this, and what I'm sensing from what you're describing with what you've shared so far, it is prioritizing this presencing, this curiosity, and this connection with another when we approach. I think that is such a gift and can be so incredibly healing. Even as you were just describing this, Shahrzad, I was like, I can feel myself responding to you and our connecting. Like, you're in connection with yourself, I'm connecting with myself observing, and then we're creating and meeting each other in this shared space, even though we're virtual, and we're prioritizing that.

It's a choice, if you think about it, at any given moment. We deprive ourselves of that choice because we get so caught into the shoulds, the shouldn'ts, the fears, everything that exists around us at any given moment.

Just as you've described what gets in the way or these obstacles, it's perhaps the self-critic who is harsh and is saying all the shoulds. Also, you've mentioned societal narratives around what's desirable or likable and lovable. Also, family influences, and also just the fast pace of life and just this productivity around, I think you mentioned multitasking and how that can interfere with deep conversation. My husband and I still use this term that we came across probably almost I'd say 15 or 18 years ago, technoference. It's when either one of our phones are chiming and we interrupt attention to pivot towards our device. So talk to us a little bit more about these obstacles or what might run interference, and then I would love to hear what perhaps you would recommend or give people tips around how to work with those, because they're incredibly influential.

People ask me this all the time. Because I feel like we live in a world nowadays where we have access to so much information at any given moment, it's impossible to disengage from it. I mean, I have a very restless soul. So when I was younger, I would go through all these self-help kind of, I don't even know what to call them, workshops, classes, seminars, gurus. I would go to ashrams and sit there for two weeks and not talk and just pray and meditate. When I was in there, I thought: Oh my God, I have tamed my inner beast, I can't believe I'm so good at this. But think about it. You don't have to worry about paying a bill. You don't have to worry about talking to your mom. You don't have to solve a problem with your husband. You don't have to take care of your kids. You don't have to talk to your boss. Of course you're going to be in this state of bliss. 

The whole point of this is being able to maintain whatever that dynamic is, while you are bombarded by all these elements. This is part of life, we cannot escape it. If we want to live as a human in this society, we have all these conditions to deal with on a daily basis. So to tell you the truth, I'm not a big fan, even with technology. Technology solves a lot of our problems nowadays. Does it create its own chaos and so forth? Absolutely. But it's something that we achieved, and we want to use it to our advantage.

All of us, in the first five years of our lives, come to internalize certain belief systems about ourselves, about other people, about the world, all of that. Then we function on a daily basis through the interpretations that that belief system gives us. The way to change that dynamic is to figure out which one of those belief systems is working against us, and how to go back. I don't think, to tell you the truth, as a psychologist, that we can ever overcome fully, because they're so engraved in us when we're at such a young age. But what we can do is learn how to reframe them, and that's very helpful in allowing us to connect or disconnect when needed, and how to relate to ourselves, the world, everything around us. Once we can do that, I think we are in a better space to manage everything that we need to, because we're staying true to our needs.

So in that moment, if I feel like, wait a second. I feel like my stomach feels weird, and I feel some tension in my chest, which tells me I'm anxious. See, I'm tracing my body to my emotions, which tells me I'm probably having some thoughts that are causing me to feel anxious. So let me see if I can just put everything aside and just take a moment and go inwards, and maybe breathe and find some comfort in my body and reset my nervous system. Once I can do that, now I can go back and even look at my social media again, without the same emotional reaction I was having to it before.

Yes. I'm grateful you mentioned your experience with being at an ashram or even meditating, because it feels as though it has the quality, this deep listening or deep conversation, as real presencing and mindfulness that can occur in a meditative practice or state. Also, as you describe living life, as you mentioned earlier, the difficulties, the challenges, the hardships, that we take a shower, we brush our teeth, we have certain ways in which we engage in hygiene. And I don't know that the average, I'll just say maybe American or Westerner has a psychological hygiene or emotional hygiene practice. It's like, we are moving through life, and maybe we'll notice a friction or a reaction, and maybe we'll turn towards it with inquiry. But it's not like we're in a preventative practice of hygiene. It sounds like this could be a way of incorporating or framing how you're describing this, that if we feel this nudge or we experience something, whether or not it's a tension in the chest, or whether or not it's just evaluating beliefs, that this is a way for us to notice: what did we pick up along the way, what stuck to us, what still is on us and with us?

I agree with you, and I can share a personal story if it would be helpful, just as it relates to my own psychological process. But that if we don't evaluate or have conscious awareness of it, it likely is playing a part, but we're just not really that aware of it.

Absolutely. It's running the show silently, and then we blame our parents, we blame our partners, we blame our friends, that I feel this way because this person did this to me. But I'm not really understanding how much control, to use the term loosely, I have over the situation. I can redirect it for myself if I just figure it out. I have to admit, more and more, I'm seeing the new generation is taking the ownership of that. I think we've raised the consciousness to a certain level that people are noticing, like you mentioned with your body, that you have to keep a certain hygiene, we have to do the same. More importantly with our psyche, I think even more important than our body.

I think if we continue down this path and bring attention to the matter and talk about it, and allow people to realize how much this matters in their daily lives, especially people who are raising children, I cannot emphasize how important this is. Because most of us, people come to me in their 40s and 50s, and I ask them, how are you doing? Good. I say, okay, so imagine I am taking away that word and you want to describe to me how you're feeling. They get stuck. It baffles me that this person has gotten to this age, but doesn't have the most basic vocabulary to even know what's happening within them. It's painful if you think about it.

It is. Even if they do have the vocabulary, that perhaps they haven't paused to connect, to then be able to share.

Exactly, that's a very good point. There are a lot of things that we know, but we don't feel even comfortable sharing. Because as soon as we do, we're emotional. Especially as women, I think men in a different way, women in a different way. Society obviously allows women to express it a little bit more, but then we're labeled as the emotional ones, so we want to offset that. Men, they don't even go there most of the time, because society doesn't allow them as much space for it.

To your point, I do believe that there's a development in our psychology, as it relates to gender or how people identify, that's making a lot more room for it. Well, and to your point about are we ever able to fully shift out of early learning? I can just say for myself, there have been some things that I have felt more healed on, and then other things that were so, to your point, a part of my experience in a chronic way. I'll just say really quickly, I had a parent that was pretty emotionally explosive and unstable and volatile at times. So I learned, one of my coping strategies was to help or to please or to go to assist. In one of my therapeutic processes in my life, and just what I was noticing with my husband, when he would get angry, I would bypass my own experience and go. I was calling it like triage. I was like, I'm not even aware that I'm going to rescue or help, or in my mind, a false sense of rescue. I can't actually. I mean, I can help a little. But I think that early belief and that early trauma, that was how my nervous system learned.

So I'm in a much different state where I'm able to notice. I'll feel the tendency, but I'm able to notice it and I have a different relationship with it, and then I can almost reparent the part of me that didn't get: Oh, someone in my life is having big feelings, and it's okay, and it's not yours. Just how to reparent myself. It possibly will look different down the road. But there's a different relationship with some of these dynamics as we become, A: just conscious of it, and then B: know how to relate or choose differently, and then just the process of it. This is so beautifully integrating. Like, if this is a part that wasn't, in the circumstances, able to exist, how do I bring her back in and work with her differently? So it's a deep share, but it also is, I think, just part of what you're describing around, it's such a process. It's not necessarily this binary, like we just heal it and it's done.

Thank you for sharing that. I know it's not easy to go to those parts of ourselves that have been hurt. But when you can reframe it as beautifully as you did, and you can bring purpose to it and learn from it, then it becomes part of your power versus weakness. I think that's a very powerful moment of growth for all of us, and you've done a great job with that. But I agree with every word you said. I think it's a process. It will never be perfect for any of us. Healing is not a one-time thing. I know I've had trauma in my life that I've gone through multiple layers of therapy and inner work with it, and sometimes I feel like this is done, this is great. Then one particular thing, like a simple memory or smell, takes me to the middle of it as if it just happened yesterday. I kind of think to myself, what happened to all this inner work I did? It's there because I can immediately regain control of it again. It doesn't hijack me. It no longer takes me. It shows up, but I can name it, I can connect with it, and then I can step out of it again.

So healing is a process. It will never be perfect. I like to give my patients the example of doing yoga. I've been doing yoga for many years. There are days that I show up to the mat, and my body is super flexible and I can go into the poses. Then the next day, I show up and I feel like I'm so stiff, I can barely move, and every part of my body hurts. It's a process. It will never be perfect, and we just have to be patient with ourselves and we have to do the best we can, and have wisdom in the fact that a lot is happening, even though we can't always pinpoint it and say: Oh look, this is how much I grew today.

No kidding! Now I know we're winding down. One of the things that I think we've probably already spoken to, and as you talk about this gentleness and almost compassion and not trying to judge if we're having a response, you talk about being able to recognize insecurities or fears in a conversation. Is this similar, treating what one might observe? Like, oh, that was a big reaction, and what happened there? Is there anything you want to say about how one might be able to identify insecurities and fears and work with them?

Once we learn the alphabet of how to connect with the self, I think little by little, we feel more sense of safety and security to allow these emotions to emerge and not react to them as we normally do. We have the tendency, for example, if we cry, most of us don't like it. Patients apologize to me all the time. I'm so sorry, I didn't mean to do that. Even though it's a space where people can cry, even then we feel like I can't express my emotions. 

Yeah, thank you. Then last question is perhaps, do you want to say anything about how forgiveness for self or forgiveness for other plays a part in this process?

So forgiveness, I would say, is at the core of our intention with all of this. Because what forgiveness means is I am taking away the judgment, and what that judgment is, is that critical voice, whether it's our individual or the collective one that comes from society or inside our head, that deems things as binary: right/wrong, good/bad, acceptable/unacceptable. The moment we can bypass all of that and let things be as they are. If there are things that we can do about the parts that don't feel as amazing, we'll do it, and some days all that means is having compassion for it.

Wow, that's beautiful. Easier said than done for some moments than others. But just that it's okay, that there's more that can exist on the continuum, and then if we feel not okay, being able to explore what that means to me, or the meaning I make that, or how it has meaning and insignificance. Okay, beautiful.

Oh my goodness, Shahrzad, there's so much here that you're saying. Is there anything that we haven't gotten to that you wanna just make a point to say before we transition?

No, I think you asked a lot of amazing questions, and I'm glad that we got to have this chat. The only thing that I think is worth mentioning is, I understand for someone who wants to go down this path, it can feel very overwhelming. We all have a lot of big emotions. Start with providing a safe environment to explore it, whatever that means to you, whatever resources are at your disposal, and just allow it to communicate with you. From there, start to listen. It's impossible. Once you seek the path, it appears. I mean, I am yet to see someone who really wants to do this and can't find the right resources to do so.

Wonderful. Well, speaking of resources, what would you like to let people know about that you have to offer or direct people towards?

Well, we have a couple of things happening at the moment. Obviously you have my website information. We have a full clinical practice that people can always come to. A lot of great professionals, they're offering great help and support. More than happy to help anyone we can. We have a lot of different courses and groups that we offer at any given time. At the same time, I've recently written a book, it's in the process of getting published and scheduled to come out sometime in July. The book is a combination of my own personal life experience, although it's a fictional character, but based on my own trauma, as well as an amalgamation of the trauma that I've seen in the patients in my clinical practice. So it's kind of a unique approach of, I tell the story of this person, and at the end of each chapter, I talk about the psychological dilemma present in that part of the story and how to overcome it. It's called From Pain to Purpose. I think it covers our discussion from today, where if we learn how to properly interpret what's happening with us at any given moment, it doesn't have to rule our life in a negative way. We can actually use it to our advantage and to our power, and come out of all these frameworks that we have come to believe we're stuck in. I hope it's helpful for your audience and it helps them get started on this journey of self-development.

I am very interested in your book, Pain to Purpose, and that it's a fictional story that then you provide the psychological understandings and guidance. That's a beautiful blend, I think it sounds really great.

Thank you. So I came to the realization that most of the time, there are a lot of self-help books out there, and as someone who's in the field, I often read them, and my patients read them. But I think one shortcoming is, when people are going through something difficult, like when you're depressed, and you pick up a book and it tells you: Well, go for a walk, do this, do that. I think most of us have that knowledge, but it's hard to relate it to ourselves in that moment. That's why I figured a personal life experience can help people maybe find a part of themselves in that story. Because I think most human pain is shared. We all experience it differently, but I think it all has the same core and the same essence to it.

Yeah, and the power of story and just being able to help people engage. The practice you're referring to, that's for people in California, is it specific?

Yes. Right now, it's specifically in California. The courses and so forth, obviously, we're not necessarily limited to California. I've recently started doing some social media posts, just doing formative little clips that I think you have the links for, and if you could kindly share it with your viewers. Starting with learning how to navigate that a little bit, just because I find myself to be very introverted, so this is not necessarily my forte. But I love to be able to share whatever wisdom it is that I've gained from my life experience, because I think we all can relate to each other that way and use each other as a support system to grow and expand.

Wonderful! I will make sure to have all of the links that you're referencing on today's show notes. Thank you so much for joining us.

Thank you for providing this space. It was wonderful speaking to you.