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About this episode

Every relationship experiences moments of disconnection. These instances, often referred to as ruptures, can feel alarming, especially when they seem to happen all too frequently. But what if conflict wasn't something to dread but rather an opportunity for growth and deeper connection? The problem many face is not the rupture itself but the lack of repair. Learning how to artfully navigate these reparative processes can transform conflicts from mounting resentment to meaningful growth. Are you ready to redefine how you view and handle conflicts in your relationships?

In this episode, we delve into the heart of using a trauma-informed approach to repair relationships. Through a blend of therapeutic insights and practical techniques, the conversation sheds light on the dynamics of conflict and the importance of repair to foster genuine connection and intimacy. By tapping into our own inner resources and acknowledging our shared vulnerabilities, listeners can learn to transform challenges into powerful moments of healing, growth, and reconnection.

Esin Pinarli is a holistic psychotherapist and relationship expert specializing in IMAGO therapy, brainspotting, Internal Family Systems (IFS), somatic practices, and psychodrama. Through an integrative experiential approach, she helps individuals and couples suffering from anxiety, depression, addiction, codependency, trauma, and relational attachment issues to navigate life's challenges so they can become fully alive, supported, and whole.

Episode Highlights

07:16 Understanding rupture and repair in relationships.

10:11 The role of conflict and repair in intimate connections.

13:38 Navigating disconnection using a trauma-informed approach.

17:06 Recognizing trauma response patterns in relationships.

23:28 Importance of reflecting and regulating responses.

25:43 Mirroring and attuning as steps in the repair process.

30:54 Nurturing vulnerability for deeper intimacy.

34:27 Cultivating empathy and understanding within partnerships.

35:24 Collaboration and accountability in healing relationship dynamics.

39:20 Handling simultaneous activation in partner dynamics.

42:47 Techniques for achieving regulation and calm.

45:56 Exploring creative solutions in conflict resolution.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Be aware of disproportionate reactions to situations, as they may indicate unresolved trauma being activated.
• If feeling dysregulated during a rupture, take a moment to cool down and plan to revisit the topic later when calmer.
• Use deep breathing techniques or create a ventral landscape to help access a calmer state and re-engage the prefrontal cortex.
• When triggered, try to become curious about your feelings and the situation, as this can lessen defensiveness and promote understanding.
• Use mirroring techniques to slow down conversations, ensuring both partners feel heard and understood.
• Recognize the protective parts within yourself that emerge during conflicts, honor them for their past role, and seek their permission to step back temporarily.
• Engage in mindful “repair waltz” steps, including mirroring, attuning, and making space for vulnerability to promote healing.
• Consider participating in workshops or coaching programs like Evolve in Love to practice new skills in a structured environment, facilitating deeper personal and relational growth.

Mentioned

Huberman Lab

ERP 276: Understanding The Need For Both Self-Regulation And Co-Regulation In Relationship – An interview With Deb Dana

Evolve in Love (program)

Connect with Esin Pinarli

Websites: eternalwellnesscounseling.com

Instagram: instagram.com/esinpinarli_lcsw

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Episode Transcript

Esin, thank you for joining us. I'm really excited about our conversation. This topic is very important for people to have some awareness about. Just the trauma-informed, how to have repair when there's been rupture in relationship.

Thank you so much for having me on. I'm very, very passionate about this topic. Because rupture and repair, a lot of people hear about it and they're like, what is rupture and what is repair? Basically, rupture is a disconnection, a moment of disconnection in a relationship or a connection. That could be with a romantic partner, that could be with a colleague, that could be with a dear friend, that could be with a family member. 

Yeah. So it's part of the natural development of relationship, and that really, the secure functioning is really about repair. So if we're avoiding conflict, rupture will happen. But if we don't have a way in which we're repairing, then we're not actually giving as much support to connection.

Absolutely. I think it's in the design of connection, and I think it's built in to the design. A lot of people will say: Well, I'm having too many conflicts or ruptures, there must be a problem here. I go, there's not a problem, because conflict is actually inherently built into the design of a connection. So it's really about what is a rupture, and what does the repair look like? It's an art. How do you skillfully master navigating having a rupture, which is a moment of disconnection, or an experience of disconnection with somebody when you're in relationship with them, in connection with them? It's not something to be feared, but something that's an opportunity to learn more about yourself and what activates you.

Really, coming from the trauma perspective is, we all come with histories. So we come with this rich history and inner biology and a template and a paradigm of how we operate in the world, and our rich internal experiences that we've had—some good, some bad. So to learn how to have disconnection, so be out of sync in a relationship, and then how to get back in sync into the relationship. A lot of people call a relationship a dance, and it is. It's a dance, it's a cadence. It has a rhythm, and it has a pulse. It's basically any relationship that you have, and when you can learn how to have proper rupture and repair, your relationship becomes better. You have more intimacy, there's more authenticity, there's more opportunity to be seen for who you truly are and not looking at it like: Oh my God, we are having so many ruptures.

But my biggest interest, I think, is I do a lot of couples’ work. As my work evolved, I saw so much, it was almost like there was no adult in the room. It was these two people and their younger parts at war with one another, and they weren't a team. I almost was like, it's basically the two of you against this dynamic of whatever is happening, the core scene. I call it the core scene. What's the common theme that keeps coming up that's causing you? You might be fighting about, you think a different topic, or you may have a conflict or a disagreement, or you may get activated by something. But there's a core scene that goes on in almost every relationship. It's like, if we could find out the patterning and then get in there and understand that this is what keeps getting repeated, but we're not repairing. So it too ends up being caught up in resentment.

Yes. It's almost an accumulation of rupture, rupture, rupture, and the cycle doesn't actually give an opportunity for repair, which to your point, I absolutely agree. It allows for the deeper intimacy, being more fully expressed in the authenticity. It's a relationship, in some ways, not tested in a negative way, but really that we can build more confidence. That we've gone through trials and tribulations, and we've come out stronger. We have a depth of understanding that we wouldn't have had otherwise. So when you're talking about these dynamics that are so triggering and have these themes that keep perpetuating, it's highly activating, and to your point, people feel really disoriented around how to get their bearings.

Yeah. They're just like, if I'm fighting this much, or there's this much conflict and we can't seem to get on the same page, maybe this is not the friendship for me, maybe this is not the relationship for me romantically, maybe I need to stop working with this person. I'm like, if you get curious, you'll see that there's a pattern. I kind of call the relationship a dance, and I call the repair a waltz. So the waltz is like learning the steps. It's like, you've learned the steps to the rupture, which is that moment of disconnection or activation where you don't see eye to eye, or you're not getting along and you're getting activated by the other person. Then it's like, well, what are the steps to the waltz? How do I get out of sync with you, get upset with you, and then go into a repair, which would be: I'm sensing that I'm getting really angry when you talk to me like that? So then the other partner can get curious about you're sensing that you're getting angry, so I can bring all my parts to the conversation. It's like: Okay, so a part of me is angry, but there's other parts of me. So if I can bring my full self in there, and the partner can bring their full self in there, or whoever it is that you are in relationship with, and really get curious about it.

People start to get defensive. Because we automatically have this sort of characterization that we create, a story that we create about the person, whether we're case-building. Or we've had, like you said, rupture, rupture, rupture, no repair. Rupture, rupture, rupture, no repair. Now you're under resentment, and every single thing is coming through the lens of the previous. When things happen in a relationship, they're mini traumas or big traumas.

Yes, and there's a lack of safety without this repair.

A total lack of safety. And they're sizable. Infidelity in a relationship would be a largely sizable rupture that requires a deep repair. Oftentimes, even if you do the repair correctly, allowing your partner or the person for that to come back up again, because you cycle in relationships, so something may activate you in that. The other person is like: I thought we talked about this, I thought we moved on from this, I thought we were over it. It's like: Well, can you be with me for a minute and hold space for my feelings? Because they're coming back up again, and I am getting triggered, and I am getting activated. It's like I'm kind of ruminating, or I'm replaying the scenario in my head. I can't get it out of my head. If that partner or friend can be with that person in that moment and just be like: That makes sense that that would come up for you, that really makes sense. That helps somebody to feel like it's okay to have that.

Insecurities, fears, yes.

Yeah. It's like, everybody has insecurities, everybody has fears, everybody has a history, everybody has experienced trauma to a different degree. It's not this one size fits all. It's so, so nuanced, and sometimes you don't know when something is going to get hit or you're going to rub up against each other.

Right, where both people perhaps are activated. So can we slow down and talk about the waltz and the metaphor? Because I think this is particularly important, giving people support to get into the repair dance, and you likely have a process that you encourage people. But before we go into that, can you say a little bit about regulation and dysregulation and being trauma-informed? Also, speaking of trauma, that oftentimes, what might get triggered predates the relationship, when we've had trauma in our history growing up, or previous relationships. So what's getting activated might not actually even be what is present in current time and space. So can you talk about regulation and how trauma might show up in rupture, and then just how to build some awareness around that?

Yeah. So we all get dysregulated. Our nervous systems are never in one state. We move through these nervous system states. So polyvagal theory states that we move through, dorsal, sympathetic, which is, oftentimes when we're activated, we're in the inorganic version of sympathetic. Because the organic version of being in your sympathetic nervous system is to meet life's demands and challenges and take care of tasks, and you need that. But when it gets inorganic, it becomes fight, flight, freeze, fawn, and all of a sudden, you're super activated and your nervous system is dysregulated.

That's the charge. That's the heart racing. That's the seeing tunnel vision.

Totally, I can only see right now. 

Sometimes it is, because it's very nuanced. Sometimes it's about exactly what happened in this moment, and I need to have a repair around this. But usually, it's a younger part showing up that is holding on to an unresolved trauma wound, or something that you have not worked through that is a trauma that has not had proper trauma resolution. So it's getting reactivated. So think about having this open wound, and some of these wounds take longer to close than others for everybody. So if I am getting activated, my nervous system is already dysregulated. Let's also take into consideration external variables, which means if I'm burned out at work, and I have a lot going on outside of whatever relationship I'm in—the friendship, the romantic relationship—and I'm coming in already dysregulated. I'm in this fight, flight, freeze. I'm overwhelmed, I'm sleep deprived, I'm fearful and I end up in that fear-based state. So then I'm going to interpret everything through that lens of that fear-based state. So if you say something to me, I'm going to take it in through the lens of whatever nervous system state that I am in, in that current moment.

So if I am in the sympathetic state—which is the fight, flight, freeze, fawn—most likely, there's always a story attached to it, because we're meaning-makers. So I feel something in my body, I'm dysregulated. I'm burned out, I'm on high alert, I'm in a hyper-arousal, hypo-arousal. All of a sudden, my partner or my friend says something to me, and I'm just like, huh! It has just exacerbated the nervous system state that I'm in. If I'm in sympathetic, which is usually the state when you're in activation, I am going to tell a story. I am, the world is, and people are. Usually, in sympathetic, the stories are: I am scared, I am nervous, I am overwhelmed, I'm frantic. The world is not safe. People are not to be trusted because I don't feel safe enough, because I'm in sympathetic. Ventral is the nervous system state that we all have an inherent longing to be in, but we're not always in that.

That's where we're creative, we have social connection, we're feeling intimate.

Yes, we're flexible, we're not rigid. We're playful, we're spontaneous. We're regulated enough. We feel safe enough. There's no such thing as a 100% felt sense of safety 24 hours a day, seven days a week. It's just about safe enough. But we don't feel safe enough when we're activated and we're in that sympathetic nervous system state. So you want to pause and yield for a little bit, and see and assess. Okay, I have a lot going on right now. I'm overwhelmed. I am sleep deprived, like you said, Jessica. I am really already dysregulated, and now you've said something to me, and I am triggered. So most likely, a repair during that period of time is not going to be conducive. Because then, how does the partner or the person in relationship with you, the dance, how do they respond? They might get defensive. They may be like: Hey, I didn't mean that. You're interpreting it like you're characterizing me or getting activated. They may feel, and this often happens with trauma and dysregulation, that the reaction feels bigger and inappropriate to the context of what's actually going on.

That's a good indicator.

That's a good indicator. So it's like, okay, this is historical. 

So sometimes, it ends up being that I'll do couples work, and I'm like, there's no adult in the room. There's two wounded younger people in this, and I need to be that regulated, secure attachment figure in the room to help them to communicate. So I want them mirroring each other, so that's in an effort to slow them down.

Yes, and the protective parts. When we're in an unsafe reactive place or activated state, our protective strategies are very quick to show up, like knee jerks, in milliseconds.

It is a millisecond. Because your neuroception is out, which is the below conscious awareness detector. In a millisecond, I'm going to have a knee jerk reaction, and all of a sudden, I'm going to react. So I might say things that are harsh. My protector may be angry, because anger feels better than sadness. Anger feels better than being scared. Anger feels like a boundary defense in that moment. But you're bringing all this anger into this interaction, into this relationship, and it's hard because that part is taking over.

Yes. And what's unfortunate, but particularly quite mysterious, that we tend to partner with people where our protective parts land with the other in ways that are deeply painful. So for the one that gets angry and protection, likely their partner is going to feel this sense of either on the inside that's not good enough, or feeling like I can't do anything, and then we'll go to the shutdown place.

Oh, my God! So what you're describing, Imago, which is one of the things I'm trained in, that I do couples work with and individual work with, is they call it the maximizer and the minimizer. Then there's EFT, there's the distancer and the pursuer. So the maximizer will come in with maybe a lot of angry protectors and will come in with a lot of very strong critical protectors. You never listen to me. It's always a very blanket statement, because nothing is never and always. You never listen to me. You never pay attention to what I'm saying. So now, usually a partner that you end up pairing with, like you said, is the minimizer. They are like, wow! Then they're starting to feel like I'm being attacked, I'm not good enough, I'm not lovable. Clearly, I'm not getting it quite right with you, and you're being so critical. Now their parts are showing up, and their part is, is that when you criticize me or you make me feel like I'm doing something wrong, I shut down. I avoid

Yes. I don't want to make things worse, and let's try to not escalate this, and trying to protect. Yet, to your point, the meaning-making that both are approaching, not only are their protective parts at play, but the meaning-making. So the one that's a little bit more of the maximizer or the pursuer likely is seeing the behavior from this lens of you're not engaged, you don't care, those type of things.

Okay, this is so helpful, and I really want to come back. Because one of the things I'm sure you also come across, is that when there is more regulation, people can reflect on these interactions, and they will recognize, or the part of like: Ah, I know how that's not helpful. Then they try, or there's willpower. So in a more calm moment, they might say: Okay, here's what I'm going to do differently, or here's what I don't want to do. Yet, can you help people around how trauma plays a part in this? Because it can be, to your point, below the surface of awareness in such an automatic, as we said, so quick to show up. Can you help people around how to recognize when trauma is?

Because look, I believe trauma is on a spectrum. I think we all have some level, and some more than others. So we could speak broadly about trauma. But to be really specific, relationship, as you said, is going to have rupture and repair. When we add trauma into the mix, that rupture might look different. I think that's one thing that you're really skilled at helping people identify. So would you like to respond to that? In that, this rupture, when we're beginning to build awareness around what's showing up, as you said, if it seems bigger proportionally than what the actual thing is, likely there's more there. But to begin to recognize that what's showing up is trauma-related.

Yeah. Because I get to know the people that I work with, and I get to know what history are they bringing in with them, what's the lens in which they're seeing it? I always encourage them to pause. I encourage them, when they're dysregulated like that, it's not a time to get into the repair. Also, if they could say: Hey, I'm going to come back to this in 15 minutes. I need to reflect, and I'm going to come back to this later tonight or tomorrow. So it gives people a chance to reregulate on their own and then reflect. So I can reflect and be like, let's say I was criticized by somebody that I was in relationship with, and they told me, you always do that. You always try to get your way, and you do it in this manipulative tactic, or whatever. If it's not this, or it's not that. Then I'm like, now I'm super activated. So you're characterizing me as this thing, and then I flip out. So I may, if I take time to reflect, have been criticized before in my past in my childhood, and I never could get it quite right. There was a critical parent that was always pointing things out, and I can't even see past that at that point. So at that point, the trauma is coming in, and at that point, that thing that you are upset about and that thing or topic or issue at hand, you're reacting.

It's picking at the wound.

It's hitting the wound, and I could see it. So I'm like, pause for one second and just take some time to reflect back. There was an example, actually. I had a couple that I had been working with for a while, who would constantly criticize their partner about leaving the laundry in the dryer too long, and it was getting wrinkled, and he didn't want to wear wrinkled clothes, and he would rather do the laundry himself. And we had to pause for a second, because I'm always looking at it from trauma-informed. He's freaking out, and the reaction is disproportionate. Because if you look at it, if your clothes are a little bit wrinkled, and she's doing your laundry and you're not doing the laundry, and you're working a lot, let's take a look at that. It ended up going back down, because we paused, to his clothes were wrinkled when he was younger, and he would go to school in wrinkled clothes, and he got made fun of. So he wanted to make sure, and was super critical of his partner, to make sure that the clothes weren't wrinkled. Because then he didn't have to feel that part of being bullied, less than, shame, inadequacy, deep feelings of unworthiness, the poverty level that he was at. He's no longer there, he's super successful and is not the way he grew up in his family. But because of the lack of attunement and the lack of consideration for him and his internal world, that wrinkle represented so much more. Is it really about that? So I get people to slow down, to pause and to reflect, and to just get curious. 

So people are using that word a lot. I work with parts and Internal Family Systems, and I combine that often with Imago, and I do brain-spotting, which is some trauma work. It's sort of eclectic. Everyone is unique. But it's like breaking it down, and then they will have their own insights in the session. Because if we could slow it down and I can get people to mirror, so that it's a trick, it's a dialogical process. I'm like, so just mirror back what your partner said. So what I heard you saying is that you get really upset when…

So even just to have to go into mirroring the other person, you have to be more present and grounded in order to hear what the other person is saying and in order to mirror that back, and you have to be attuned to the person and the emotion. I always say, it's not a memorization contest. But that in and of itself is slowing you down. Because in order to mirror and attune and to repeat back, you have to use your prefrontal cortex. Your prefrontal cortex is what's responsible for regulation. It's what's responsible for decision-making, identifying the problem, solving the problem. So when that's offline, me encouraging more of a dialogue and slowing them down and yielding a couple, let's say. There's friends that have come to me for therapy. There's family members. I do Imago with families. It's a system, it's a dance. Slowing them down, and as they're mirroring, and the other person says: So what I heard you say was that you feel like I'm not really taking care of you when the clothes are wrinkled, that I don't really care about you. Did I get that right? They're like: Yeah, you did. Then I'm like, is there any more to that? So it's prompting curiosity. I'm using these prompts, and what's happening is, it's accessing the subcortical part of people's brains, which is just what is below conscious awareness.

Also, if I might add, if you can speak to this, well, the context, first of all, of the safe space that you're providing, that is also this compassionate, non-judgmental space to slow it down to unpack. But then as you said earlier, when trauma hasn't had an opportunity to be processed or metabolized, then this unpacking allows for, is there more? Oh, it reminds me of, or here's what I feel in my body, which is what we typically don't have space for because we're moving so quickly.

And the insights that come to them. Because if you get curious, you end up in the right brain, your prefrontal cortex comes back online, and in that moment, you've slowed down. Now, all of a sudden, they are like: Oh, you did that! I'm like, I didn't do that. You have an inherent knowledge and wisdom, and you have reservoirs of healing in you, and self-energy inside of you, that will make these connections when you get curious and slow down. It reminds me of when, and that prompt is like: Oh, actually. Then the other person has more empathy now. Oh, so it's not about me and that I didn't get it just quite right. It was about what it activated for you. So you got brought back to a place where you were going into school with wrinkled clothes and people were bullying you. So, oh my God, that's the last thing I would ever want you to feel. So now it moves from this one-person critical psychology to this team of like: Okay, it's you and me against this dynamic.

Yeah. Like, I want to help, and this is something that you experienced pain around. I want to be your ally. I want to be your person here.

Yeah, I want to be your person. So how can I create more safety in that? So then I said, ask, would you be willing to? So then you're slowing them down even more. Would you be willing to? I'm like, take your time with that. Would you be willing to, and then give them three options? Would you be willing to iron the clothes after, or would you be willing to? Then the person is allowed to choose. I'm willing to try this, or I'm willing to try that. Then the person feels like they slowed down enough. They were heard, they were mirrored, they were attuned to. So what they're having right there is a corrective experience and a disconfirming belief. Because your body doesn't know the difference. We're trying to imprint new trauma resolution in the moment happening. So now that little younger part of you is being heard, listened to, and so your body is now installing that as like a resource installation hardware and is like: Oh, I'm being tended to.

Yes, I'm cared about. We have resource, we have options.

We have options here, and now my partner, I'm seeing them soften, and they're having more empathy for me. They're not in defensive mode anymore, and so they're getting more curious about me as I get more curious. Then that's how you have a repair. That's the art of repair: mirroring, attuning, and then waltzing into that, so learning that new waltz.

Right, when there's a little bit more of ability to have that vulnerability and that tenderness be shown and revealed, that then allows for the person to be like: Oh, I get it, or I have deeper understanding. I also don't know if you've experienced this, but I have found even, when the person that is expressing the vulnerability or maybe even previous trauma, and their partner wants to help, also, sometimes they're feeling more options in themselves around like: Oh, here's how I can also get my needs met, or how we can work together so it's not only on the other person.

Brilliant. I mean, you just named so much of stuff that I see in action, where they're like: Oh my God, so I could also meet my needs. So not only can I ask you to meet that part, and then also, I want their adult version to show up and be with that younger part. I ask them, I say, think of a time when you feel the most in flow, more regulated than you feel in this moment or around this particular topic or around this particular core thing. Because I know you can recall a time where you're more regulated. So they start to think about it, and they're like: Yeah, when I'm in my creativity and I'm in flow and I'm working. I'm like, okay, so what is that nervous system state? Let's bring that nervous system state in, so that you can be with this younger part that has protectors, and then you could say, be with that part and meet that part on your own and right now. So then I'm holding space as a compassionate, empathic witness to that younger part, you are, and so is your partner. Look at all this energy directed at.

It makes so much sense that that part would get so dysregulated, because it is so historical. And in this moment, we are offering an invitation for curiosity, for healing, for holding space, and for you to have a corrective experience. And what happens is, is that because they become more regulated as we slow down, the creativity, the right side of the brain, like you said, is like: Oh my God, I can actually do this, and maybe sometimes I can do the laundry. Or maybe if you do the laundry, then maybe I can steam it out the way that I want to do it. But the laundry is all done, so I only can do that part. That might be really helpful for me.

I see these light bulb moments that they're coming up with, that is just like, you're totally tapped into the right side of your brain, which is the birthplace of creativity, where you're more regulated and where you have access to learning how you can meet your own needs. Because we have a relational responsibility, it's also highlighting the parts of us that still need more healing and nurturing and compassion. It's almost like, this is actually awesome. Because now I'm understanding what parts are not healed yet, what are still open wounds, what parts am I a little bit emotionally immature around still? So then, your partner becomes one of your greatest teachers.

Absolutely, what is getting activated is curriculum for developing. One of the things that I'm so touched by how you're describing this in this example, even in the parts work, that the younger part that felt bullied likely didn't have support around how to handle that, and was alone in the shame. So to have that compassionate, empathetic energy, both from the space that's being held therapeutically, as well as the partner, and then for self. I loved how you referenced, we have so much resource in our ability to heal and have higher self, however we want to articulate that.

Look, DBT calls it wise mind, higher self. IFS calls it self-energy. If you look at any of these theories or modalities that we use in therapy and coaching, there's always attachment, and there's always an element of spirituality in there. Carl Jung calls it shadow parts. These parts that I'm ashamed to show the world, or they feel so ugly and unwanted, I have not accepted them. There's not enough healing around it, there's not enough safety for it to come up. That's the other thing. 

No, and we are grateful for the work they've done.

I always say, honor those protective parts because they have helped you survive. Honor those, and we're going to ask them permission because they're the boss. We're going to say, would you be willing to step back just for a little bit? We don't want you going anywhere. Let us be with the little girl or the little boy right now in this room. And when you talk about that safety, I really try to be so intentional about creating a safety container. I call it that safety container. I'm like, it's just us, and we are a team, and I am going to be guiding you in order, but you are your best healer. I'm just illuminating the path and guiding you, and I'm giving you prompts, but you're accessing your self-energy. You are accessing your higher self. You're accessing your wise mind because you're pausing enough, and there's taking accountability. It's like, you know what? I could see that I might be defensive and I might be angry because I think I wasn't seen or heard, and I think I was terrified that if I didn't manipulate to get my needs met, they didn't get met so easily. So I think that I have blind spots, and now I can see it a little more clearly that you're right. I do sometimes do things, subconsciously or consciously, in order to get my needs met. Because they weren't met when I was younger, and I learned that I had to be strategic and be manipulative in order to get my needs met. So I could totally see how you would. There's that level of accountability.

That is such a healing moment for that person that is stating that and being vulnerable and accepting that part of themselves, because we want to be able to accept all of the parts of us. People are often like, why would I accept this part that I'm coming here to work on? I go, because you can't transform or alchemize or transmute or heal until you accept.

I love that. That's so beautiful. So can you talk a little bit about, in the couple dynamic perhaps, you described in this exact instance that the partner was feeling defensive and maybe reacting to what felt like unfair criticism or blame. But perhaps there's occasions where both people are triggered, both people are having a trauma response, and what you're helping is slowing things down, giving space for one, and helping the other one try to stay present. But how do you help people when they're both feeling activated?

Yeah. So I have both people pause and I say, this is early attachment wounding coming up. I'm kind of like the coach that's watching the dynamic. I'm watching the dance, I'm watching the game, whatever you want to call it, and I'm like, I'm seeing a lot of early attachment wounding coming up. It's like, you guys are rubbing up against each other. Your wounds are rubbing up against their wounds. It's almost like two people with early attachment wounding. It's like, well, I was criticized, so I'm not going to be criticized. Because I never got it right and I always was criticized, and I don't want to be with a partner who's constantly criticizing me and about every little thing. So then, all of a sudden, they become super defensive, and some of their parts, besides being defensive, they're like, I call them serpent tongue parts. Literally, it's this rage. It's a rageful part. It goes beyond anger. It goes to like, I am so sick, I was abused and criticized, and you're the last person I'm going to take it from. So now, it's almost like their protector is the predator, and it's impenetrable at that point, and it's biting and it's really mean. Disclaimer: When it starts to get abusive, because it has, I pause and I say, this is not okay. I say we need to pause for a second.

When we're talking about this rupture and repair in relationships, we're talking about generally healthier relationships. We're not talking about when there's like major physical, sexual, verbal abuse, just as a PSA to people. Those are very sizable ruptures that is a different animal. We're talking about early attachment wounding that happens. 

Number one. Number two, we're picking partners that resemble, subconsciously or consciously, a critical parent or a difficult caregiver. If I could heal it with them, and if I can get them to see me, and if I can get them to validate me, and if I can get them to understand me and I can get them to love me, or be there in the ways that I needed at that time, I think that I can heal that wound. Yes, there's some actual truth to that when you're doing Imago.

But when it's unconscious, we're likely going to perpetuate the drama versus being able to be more conscious.

Exactly.

Okay. So in the holding, when both people are perhaps in this activated state, how do you help them know who goes first, if you will? Like, how to choose, when they're trying to get regulated?

So I try to help them regulate. I have them slow down, and I say, there's a lot of early attachment wounding that's coming up right now, and I just want you guys to breathe. I'll actually breathe with them, and I'll slow them down. I say, we can trick our bodies into thinking they're calmer than they actually are. So we will do it together. I'll do it with them. I'm like, let's do a double inhale, let's hold it at the top. I think Dr. Huberman has spoken about this. This physiological exhale, where there's a vibration in your throat. Like, in yoga, there's a reason why people go ooh, and in somatic experiencing, in order to move out of a different nervous system state.

And the polyvagal too.

Polyvagal too, yeah. Porosity, tone. We want a vibration in the throat. So we want to have this focal exhale of like, wooh, so it's vibrating. I'm actually slowing them down, I'm being very intentional about that, and I can see the shift. Then I say, who would like to go first? But I work on regulating with them. I work on self-soothing. Sometimes, until they can create an internal attachment figure, I become the surrogate external attachment figure that is trying to create that safety. So I help to calm down. I'm like, listen, I'm the adult right now in the room because I'm not in this relationship. I am not going to get as activated as you guys, and my prefrontal cortex is intact right now. Because of me able to track my own nervous system, because if there's a lot of activity going on, I could also get activated or I could get reactive. But that's why I do my own work, and that's one of the other gifts that you give people, is that when you're doing your own work, I can track my own nervous system and I could be like, there's so much aggression and there's so much early attachment wounding going on right now, I can track what am I experiencing in this moment.

So even when I'm calming them, I'm also doing it with them, because they need an adult in the room. The adult has left the building. I say it to them. I make jokes too, because humor. I go, the adults have left the building, guys. So I'll add a little bit of humor in there, and I go: It's okay, because we all have it. So I slow them down and try to get them back into regulation, and I use some polyvagal techniques.

I work with creating a ventral landscape. So a ventral landscape is basically like creating, what are all the things that make you feel really regulated? So I have somebody, let's say in their ventral landscape, they have mountains, they have their teddy bear from when they were really little, they have flowers in there, there's music playing in there, there's an ocean, they have their pet in there. So I get them into a ventral landscape and I say, just be in that ventral landscape, marinate in that for a little bit. Then we want to take an anchor from that ventral landscape, whether it's the dog metaphorically, or it's that teddy bear, and bring that back in. Every time you shift into sympathetic or dorsal, we'll have an anchor from that ventral landscape that we create. I'm like, let's just go be in your ventral landscape, and I want you to be in your ventral landscape, and just take a little moment to create that. What makes you feel more regulated? What makes you feel safe enough? What makes you feel safer than you are right now? So then they start to think about it and they're like: Oh, you know, I see the sun glistening on the water, and it kind of looks like it glimmers. That's another thing I use, Deb Dana talks about it.

She was a guest, I remember.

Oh God, I've been using them and I didn't even know what they were, anchors and the glimmers. So they're micro-moments of ventral. So if I could just get them to have little micro-moments of ventral, consistently over a period of time, that creates macro. Little, micro. There's a micro-moment right here in this room, and they're like, I really like that. I like that picture, it's really calming to me. I like those flowers over there. Oh, you have lavender? I often have lavender, or I'll have sage. I like that sage, I love the smell of that. I'll burn sage sometimes, and they're like, I really like the smell of that sage. I go, take that in. Take that into your nervous system and, and feel what that feels like to really appreciate that. That's a glimmer, and then we can savor. Savoring is the extension of that glimmer. So basically, it's that micro-moment of ventral that you looked at that felt way more calm than what you're feeling right now, and then savor it, meaning extend it out 30 seconds. Like, feel it, be with it, feel what it feels like inside of your body. But I always say with the savoring, something that Deb Dana talks about, is that they could be a dampening. All of a sudden, I could start to savor and extend out a glimmer, and all of a sudden, negative thoughts start coming back up. Get out.

Oh, there's so much richness to what you're describing, and I really want to help people be able to get more in touch with you and what you're offering. I just very much appreciate your describing the waltz and the dance metaphor to help assist and repair how being trauma-informed helps orient and slow this down to access, create the safety, the empathy and the compassion, and just what's accessible for the healing process. Also, when there's a lot of complexity, when it's just more than one individual and two people that are triggered, how to get some resource in these ventral landscapes.

I'm coming out with, we've been working on it for a while, there's a couple of workbooks coming out on nervous system regulation, like a blueprint for more nervous system regulation that has a lot of polyvagal, somatic exercises that you can do. Because I'm a big proponent of people doing their own individual work, and couples' work, if we're talking about romantic relationships. Then also, another workbook that's coming out, it's been in the making for a while, that is basically about becoming more whole and accepting. It's kind of parts work, but it's like my take on it. So there's a lot of polyvagal and IFS. It's an eclectic ideology, and practical, usable exercises for people, that it comes from all of these things that I've learned and all the mentors that I continue to work with. It's like polyvagal meets IFS, meets somatic experiencing, but in an easy, instructional, practical love letter to yourself.

I love it. So how do people get in touch with you and stay connected to be able to access the workbook?

Absolutely. So I have a website, it's called EternalWellnessCounseling.com. On that website, you can subscribe to my email list, and then a lot of those freebies are going to start getting sent out. I think I have one up already. So if you just subscribe, it'll get sent to you for free. I hang around Instagram a lot. I'm on all the other platforms, but I've been really focusing the last year. I'm a little late to the game with that. I wish I did it earlier, but it's okay. It arrives exactly when your nervous system is ready to receive it, that's what I believe. So my Instagram handle, and I always get it confused, it's @EsinPinarli_LCSW. So I have that website, and I'm on Instagram over there. I put a lot of free resources that are coming up, and I do a lot of reels and posts and stuff, so that people can get educated and have free resources at their fingertips.

Wonderful. I'll make sure to have the link to your website, your Instagram, and just how to get access to what you're sharing and will be sharing. Thank you so much for being on the show and all that you've offered.

Thank you so much for having me.