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About this episode

Conflict in relationships isn’t just inevitable—it’s normal, healthy, and, perhaps most importantly, an opportunity. Yet, the tension between wanting deep connection and authentic acceptance, while also holding onto individuality, can feel like a tightrope walk. How do couples move beyond judgment and misunderstanding to experience radical acceptance and true intimacy, especially when old patterns, unresolved hurts, and competing needs seem to pull them apart?

In this episode, listeners are guided through the complex terrain of navigating differences in long-term relationships. With practical strategies rooted in attachment science, trauma awareness, and mindful communication, this conversation dives into how curiosity, compassion, and proactive agreements can transform even the most challenging dynamics. Expect actionable insights on building repair after conflict, balancing “me” and “we,” and creating a thriving relationship where both partners—and the partnership itself—can grow. Whether you’re in the thick of recurring arguments or simply seeking a deeper, richer connection, this episode offers real tools to help you rediscover joy, security, and growth together.

Carolyn Sharp, LICSW, is an experienced couples therapist with 25 years of expertise in attachment, neuroscience, trauma, and mindfulness. She helps couples build vibrant, secure relationships through coaching, workshops, and retreats. Carolyn’s passion and extensive training inspire her work in creating joyful, healthy connections. She is the author of FIRE IT UP: Four Secrets to Reigniting Intimacy and Joy in Your Relationship.

Episode Highlights

06:14 How Carolyn Sharp found her calling in couples therapy.

09:25 The complexities of long-term relationships and the importance of learning healthy relationship skills.

12:16 Can couples truly grow together without losing themselves?

15:44 How curiosity becomes a secret weapon in relationships.

18:14 Navigating identity and boundaries: Individuality within relationships.

21:29 Understanding the origins of conflict: Attachment patterns and family system dynamics.

26:46 Proactive communication: The importance of planning and ‘owner’s manuals’ in relationships.

33:31 Relationship needs as a third entity: Maintaining the ‘us’ in times of stress.

35:41 Repairing relationship injuries

39:30 Recognizing and addressing unresolved hurt: Signs and solutions.

42:21 Learning how to apologize and repair: Overcoming childhood patterns and building new skills.

47:59 How tiny moments of repair lay the foundation for lasting trust.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Acknowledge your partner’s experiences and differences, even when you don’t fully understand or agree with their perspective.
• Before important events or situations, discuss expectations, needs, and boundaries together to avoid misunderstandings and resentment.
• If you find yourself ruminating or reacting strongly, recognize unresolved issues and set aside time to address and heal them as a team.
• When conflict or differences arise, approach your partner with genuine curiosity instead of criticism, asking open questions about their feelings and needs.
• Regularly check in on what you each need individually, as well as what your relationship as a “third entity” needs to thrive.
• When repairing a hurt, strive to make it emotionally safe for both of you—acknowledge vulnerability and show understanding during apologies.
• Accept that building a healthy relationship is a continual practice; expect change and evolving needs, and approach these shifts with flexibility.
• Alongside serious conversations, intentionally create light, enjoyable moments—like shared activities or retreats—to reinforce intimacy and resilience.

Mentioned

Fire It Up (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Evolve in Love – Next level – Book Your Discovery Call

Essentia’s website (*Affiliate link)

Stratami™ Organic Mattress (This is the mattress we purchased) (*Affiliate link)

Classic REM5 Active Mattress – (The mattress we wish we could have gotten for the cooling feature) (*Affiliate link)

Connect with Carolyn Sharp

Websites: carolynsharp.com

Facebook: facebook.com/carolyn.sharp.528

Instagram: instagram.com/secureconnectionscoaching

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/carolyn-sharp-2948407

TikTok: tiktok.com/@secureconnectionscoach

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like it to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon, if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Carolyn, thank you for joining us.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm excited to be here.

I am really looking forward to our conversation. I am a big fan of the book you just wrote, and we're going to be sharing a little bit more about that. But just your training and how you blend such a beautiful combination of disciplines, as it relates to what's important in navigating intimacy and long-term committed relationship. How did you become to support people in this area? What got you interested in couples’ work?

Well, I always wanted to help people, that was a passion from the get-go. My college didn't have social work. It had psych and it had urban studies. I went the urban studies route because I wanted a broader view of the human experience. I went on to work with people with disabilities and children, and then went to grad school in Portland to get my master's in social work at the nearest clinical program, because I knew I wanted to do direct service. So after working with kids in foster care and then in private practice with children and families, I had my daughter. After a while, doing play therapy and working with little ones, I started to feel like I was cutting everybody's meat for them. It was like, I was using all of my playful kid energy with my clients, and I wanted to have it for my daughter. So then I started gearing toward adults. Really, in all of that process, I was really seeing so strongly how the best way to support children is by supporting the adults in their lives. That relationships are where the greatest impact lands, both for healing and for injury. So if I can prevent injury to children and to all humans, and help them have more fulfilling, loving lives, that's what got me inspired to work with couples.

I'm so touched by what you're sharing, and I share such a similar sentiment. I don't know that many people know, but my separate Masters was in child and adolescence. I worked with teens, and I ran into that. I actually did my pre-doc internship at a college university. I kept finding, at least with the adolescents, that the family system was such a huge component that yes, adolescents can do such profound therapeutic work, and yet the family system is really where it's at, as far as what you're referring to. So I absolutely agree. Just for healing across the board, that so much, I think, can get activated in intimate relating like no other venue. So it can be one of our greatest opportunities.

Yeah. I don't think there's anything we do as adults that's harder than a long-term committed relationship. I think relationships are the hardest thing to do well. I don't think there are a ton of us that really got the goods, as far as the skills and processes that work and that help us. I mean, our parents and our caregivers mean well. But humans are just difficult, and I don't think we promote good relationship skills just naturally. I think we have to really work at it. So I'm on this mission to help people realize it's better to do that proactive work to build healthy relationships, than to go into crisis and need me as a couple's therapist. I would rather have you learn how to be healthy and see how much easier and how much more fun it is to do it well, than to cause yourself unnecessary angst by doing it poorly.

Absolutely, I share that mission as well. Actually, my dissertation was looking at how to support people in understanding these principles. Part of my journey was getting confronted with my own relationship challenge. At the time, I had a master's in psychology, an undergrad in psych, and had grown up in a progressive family with I statements and communication, and I still felt so ill-equipped. One of the things in your book, Fire It Up, and I don't know that you would identify, I know you pull from many different disciplines and have neurobiology and attachment.

One of the things that I very much utilize a lot of is the Emotionally Focused Therapy principles, utilizing the attachment research. But I very much am a fan of, I guess, the differentiation part of it. You talk a lot about radical acceptance and really how to nurture agreements that are win-win. Can you talk to us a little bit about how you hold this balance? You talk about this in your book, and I appreciate just how clear you are. They can feel like opposite energies or competing needs, this need for safety and security and relationship, as well as the opportunity for growth and pursuing one's individual health and wellness and becoming and evolution. So talk to us how you hold that, because sometimes those feel like opposite forces.

It sounds so counterintuitive to so many folks. I find that culturally right now, we are so divided, and we have really become more and more binary. That it's either/or, and there isn't as much gray area as I think truly exists in a relationship. That you can have both: you can have security and relationship, and have the room to be your best self. In fact, you need it. You can't have a healthy, intimate relationship between two people unless both people are fulfilled and healthy. It's something that we are working toward continually. So you don't get there, where you're done and check that off, that our relationship is good. It's something that we are continually working on. So it's aspirational.

That's the oxygen in the fire metaphor that I'm using. It requires the understanding and acceptance of each other as people that are doing our best to get through this thing called life, doing our best in this relationship. We're human, so we're going to make a lot of mistakes. But at our core, we're humans that are trying, and that ultimately have the same goals: we want to be loved, we want to be accepted, we want our needs in relationship to be met, and we're just trying to get through the day to do that. The mistakes come, in most cases, the vast majority of cases are coming from an honest place. So that radical acceptance of being in the present, and just accepting what is that you're struggling or that I'm struggling, gives us so much more freedom rather than struggle and fighting that reality. It gives us freedom to then look at it with clearer eyes, and then have the space to say: All right, you're struggling, I'm struggling, let's take some space, do things that fulfill us, and then we'll come back to the relationship with renewed energy and joy and commitment and all of that sort of stuff.

I would say, sometimes easier said than done.

Absolutely. Oh, I fully am aware that this is a practice that's very difficult. But we end up landing, we resist that idea so much, like: Oh, I don't want to become codependent, or I'm not going to accept that because you're going to think I'm condoning that. We resist it so much that we cause ourselves even more effort and even more work by pulling away from it. Like, I'll take care of myself first, and then I'll see if I have any energy for you. I'm going to try and change you. I'm going to fight you to get you to change that thing. I'm going to demand that you do it. It doesn't work. So we waste a lot of energy anyway, not doing this. So it's worth trying. It's worth as a skill to aspire to that and to do our effort to try to create that space where we accept each other and love each other and encourage each other's growth, rather than demanding it.

I'm appreciating that you're talking about some of these principles being aspirational, and I love the word practice that you just named. I can reflect on my own experience that some of this isn't even fully conscious to me that I haven't been accepting, and when I feel the tension with my significant other, and when I'm a little bit more cognizant and can just accept: Okay, he's experiencing this very differently, or he is approaching it very differently. While my automatic tendency is a little bit more to seek to understand, or perhaps managing my own threat responses, again, maybe unconsciously or consciously. I think one of my adaptive strategies, if I can get my bearings and if I can understand, it's kind of that cognitive, then it helps me orient. Which I think has some utility, but also it runs the risk of getting a little bit more into the need to understand and control. Or even if I'm not trying to control, just that sense of understanding. Like, sometimes I'm just not going to understand. That in of itself offers so much freedom, and when I can access this acceptance, then I'm confronting my own emotional challenge, which is: this maybe feels scary, this feels different than what I was anticipating, or I don't even know what this means, so maybe I'm grieving what I expected. It also offers an opportunity of the full unknown, that it could even be better than I was anticipating.

Absolutely. Really, the key, I find, is in dialing up our curiosity together—our curiosity as individuals, but our curiosity together—rather than our judgment. Again, culturally, there is a profound deficit of curiosity about people that are different from us. It's all judgment, no curiosity, or that's what I'm seeing all over the place. And when we can dial in our curiosity of what is this that I'm feeling, why am I digging my heels in so strongly? Like, well, I'm right, or this needs to happen this way. Why do I feel so strongly and why am I having this response, and what's happening for my partner that they're reacting this way? Rather than: you are bad, you are wrong. Pointing at the other person as the problem, rather than getting curious together of what is this? That is really one of the key or the hacks to getting around that dynamic, where we get so stuck and try to ram our way through a conflict.

Yes, well said. I do think what you're describing with the curiosity is so invitational and it can bring such pause, so that we can have a little, you help people understand for those that are not as familiar, window of tolerance, staying regulated enough to be able to access. Sometimes we might need to just calibrate, regulate a little bit, before we can even access this curiosity. But that there's so much more here, if we can adopt that frame or that approach.

Carolyn, as you're talking, I'm realizing, I started with the question around competing needs, and I don't know why this is coming up for me. But oftentimes, when you talk about the cultural context, I think this is changing, but I think that sometimes in relationship, we're overly identified with our partner, like our partner is somehow representing us. Or that their experience is so tied, that somehow what they do, like you said, either we're condoning it or that it is so closely associated, like that's part of me. And we want have this safety and this foundation of clear agreements and what we stand for and the values. You do a beautiful job of helping people really get clear on their purpose and having a clear vision.

Also, this freedom of staying curious, that it might be very different. Talk to us a little bit about how to slow this down. You're giving us a real key here with the curiosity. But is there anything you would say about what I'm describing? I've heard people say, like: Oh, I just get so critical because I'm afraid, especially in public or social venues, whether or not it's a political thing. Like, whatever they're saying, that's somehow a reflection of me or an extension of me. Yet, we're individuals, if we're in a monogamous relationship, two people, and we're different.

Well, I think that there is so much harmful mythology about what relationships are supposed to look like that we're programmed to. Once we make the choice to commit and we do whatever ceremony we go through, that part of our relationship is taken care of. No work necessary. If our relationship needs work, it means something is wrong. If it's effortful, it must mean we're not meant to be. All of these things, I think, feed that idea that: Oh gosh, people are going to think we're not doing well if I disagree, rather than accepting in ourselves and accepting in our partner that disagreement is not only normal, it is healthy for there to be difference between us, for there to be conflict. 

So when that happens, again, I would have you or whomever get curious about what did you learn. That's that attachment piece, which all of this was taught to me by Stan Takin who created The Pact approach, which informs everything that I do. I know you've interviewed Stan on this very podcast, he's the very best. He and Tracy are wonderful dear friends and colleagues. But getting curious about the attachment piece of: what did you learn, how were you wired in relationship, what did you learn was acceptable or unacceptable out in the world? That will help you understand your belief system about relationships and what brings up: Oh gosh, this isn't how it's supposed to be. All of that is really helpful. That's one of the pieces in my book and in all of Stan's work, is coming to an understanding of each other, of where did you learn to do that? Where did you learn that that was important?

Couples tend to over-focus on the what, the content of conversations. Like, you never take out the trash, but I empty the dishwasher. The facts of the situation, and never get to the process or the meaning of the conversation, and practicing going below the surface to what's really important to you. Where did you learn to feel that way about that? Do you still want to feel that way about that, and what can we do about it to change that so that we don't feel it? If you feel enmeshed as a couple, if you feel over-identified as a couple, how did you learn? How did that pattern take root in your relationship? Do you like it? Do you not like it? All of that stuff, and that curiosity rather than the judgment of: Oh, this is bad. It helps us decide what do we want to do about it.

Well, just the idea here that you're really giving some normalizing, that in relationship, it's optimal and normal and healthy, and quite perhaps impossible or unrealistic to not have conflict. So that we will have differences, and what that feels like when we approach a difference, that that can be really good information for us to work with around what meaning-making we assign to it and what it brings up in us. One of the things that I'm aware of, I've been practicing and trying to be in the work, my husband and I have been together for, I want to say, 18 years.

Oh wow, that's awesome. Congratulations!

Well, thank you. But I also feel like I'm very much still in the practice, and there's layers to this. One of the things that I'm aware of, that I can raise my hand around, in certain instances, my husband, if he's overwhelmed. There was a recent family trip that we took. So I'm wanting there to be an example for people listening, and I'll share myself here. This was probably a month ago, and he has a team that's bigger than the people he was leading before. So he grew his team, they had a new program they were delivering. So it was a bit of a challenge for him, and then we tagged onto that.

So we're in Central Coast, California. This was in Florida where he did the work thing. We met in Cincinnati to see my grandmother, who I gratefully saw her, she was 99 when she passed. But it was such a special person. But we were with my aunt and uncle, and he's very much got the gift of gab. Then we tagged on, because we were on the east coast, another trip, to my other father and his significant other. I tend to show up very engaged in relationships, especially when the time is limited and I want to maximize. I am much more extroverted on the continuum. I'm still a little bit in the middle, but lean towards the extroversion, and my husband leans towards the introversion. So I'm already sharing, there's a lot of differences that show up here. My husband will socially want to pace himself.

Towards the end of the trip, we were with my other father and his significant other, and they had recently been extremely supportive to us, so I very much wanted to love on them. My husband was at this point of reaching a threshold. So I noticed the tension inside me, Carolyn, around wanting him to be a little bit more engaged at times, and then wanting really, because we've done so much work, just loving him and accepting and knowing the backdrop of this, and really having that radical acceptance. It was just interesting for me to watch just what was happening internally. I learned some things, as I thought about it later, and I'm happy to share a little bit about that.

But talk to us a little bit about that. Because you're talking about slowing down, getting curious. How to work with this material a little bit, if there are conflicts or differences? That we might be able to catch the tendency to criticize, judge, or put expectation. Anything you want to say here?

Sure, absolutely. That was amazing, what a great example! I mean, the first thing that I would say, and you probably already did this, is when we have events like this, or significant things that are coming, for couples to be proactive and talk in advance about it, of expectations and hopes and needs. So that you're clear about, when we go see my other dad, I feel like I want us both to be engaged. How do you feel about that? And for him to be able to reflect and go: Well, by that point in the trip, I'm going to be a little tired, so I'm going to need to make some choices. Where can we make choices for me to have reset moments and downtime where I'm not expected to be on? Because an introvert leaning person is going to need more downtime than an extrovert leaning person. To proactively talk about it so that you can build a plan around it, so that you each know what the other person needs to feel supported by you. So that's the first piece.

Then the second piece, and I had this thought a bit ago when we were talking about conflict. One of the benefits of having a partner is, we have someone else in the room, in this space with us, that ideally, over time—Stan talks about it as having each other's owner's manual of knowing how each other runs, and I love that that metaphor—that he knows you, and you know him. If you're paying attention, which is the thing that couples fall out of, we tend to have serious conversations driving in the car over text where we can't see each other. But if we're paying attention to the physical cues, you could probably have picked up, his battery was draining, and he was looking like he needed a rest or a run, or to go screw around on his phone, or read a book, or whatever. You could have suggested it for him, where that alone feels better than him needing to ask you, can I go take it? Because he knows the pressure and all that sort of stuff.

So having a partner that's with us, that knows us, that's watching for this, we can help ward off the problems before they happen. When you're frustrated with each other, to notice: All right, it looks like you need a break, you're really mad, why don't you take a minute and we'll come back. Sort of providing that thing. Because we all know, it feels better to have someone see it and offer it, than to have to demand it. So that's one of the things that really, the smartest couples and the healthiest couples are able to do, and aspirationally, not all the time. We're relationship professionals and we still screw up. Because it is the hardest thing we do as adults, and it's the greatest gift and the greatest opportunity to grow as individuals, is through our relationships.

Yeah, thank you. Well, I can say to the second point, I very much do my best to try to welcome. I can almost get hyper-focused on the person that I'm trying to maximize. So one of the things that I learned is, even if I am very supportive of him getting some downtime, I actually think it would serve us for me to join him in parts of that, so that we're connecting. Because if he's going to do his downtime thing, and I am super engaged with the people we're visiting, we're very parallel, which we are fine, we can tolerate that. I feel like it's a little bit of a miss to have these touchpoints that I am supporting, not only just in our agreements, so to speak, but also in my joining and just maybe even regulating with him or co-regulating.

Actually, that was one of my learnings that I hadn't been aware of that prior, and that has been a tendency of mine to be very engaged. So that's something I want to move forward with. To your first point, we do this. We will have a trip and then we're like: Okay, what went well, what didn't go well? This particular set of trips, we didn't do that. So it's so notable that just how much this is a practice. I'm also aware that a lot of clients who are engaging a couple therapists or a couple coach or somebody to help, a helping professional to navigate maybe what's already gotten difficult or gotten off track, there's a lot that's getting in the way, that perhaps needs to get addressed before this proactive agreement. It's almost like there's a clean slate and we're really for each other, there's an alliance around I love you, like you said. We're in this human journey together. We want to support each other, and let's look at what our needs are. We're not judging it. We're going to recognize how do we have mutually beneficial agreements.

So my question is, and then I also want to give space for you to respond to anything I just said. But my question is, for people that are working through a lot of difficulty, what do you want to say about people who've gotten off-track, who have lots of things that they haven't been able to repair or resolve, that maybe gets in the way of them even starting this work, number one, and trying to be proactive about mutually beneficial agreements. But then if you want to respond to anything I just said, please feel free.

Keep me on track, because that was a lot, so that I don't lose the thought. Your reflection on giving your husband support in taking time and realizing you wanted to be a part of it, you're speaking to that triad that I talk about, of there being three sets of needs in every relationship. There's your needs, there's my needs, and there's our relationship needs. That he needs time alone, you need time to engage with your family, and the two of you, your relationship needs time to connect together in both of those things. So it's a continual dance between those three things. 

My husband and I, in January, he was traveling every weekend, and then I was taking a couple of trips. So we were not having as much time together, and the time together felt very compressed. Towards the end of that, I was noticing disconnection. Like, we're snappier with each other, it just feels more like we're roommates rather than partners, all of that sort of stuff. So I spoke to that and we had connected moments. So if Jeff and I go too long without some significant connection points, our relationship doesn't function as well. So knowing what you need as a partnership is really beneficial, and recognizing: is this his needs being at a deficit, my needs being at a deficit, or us not taking care of our relationship. So I just wanted to add that into that reflection.

To that reality that happens when we're busy, there's a lot going on. I mean, in your trip, you're talking about work functions, you're talking about social functions, you're talking about family functions. That's a high-pressure trip. There's lots of different things and needs that have to be met in the process, as well as travel, which is so good for us, but so challenging at the same time because you're away from your bed and your closet and your pets or whatever. It's a high-stress thing. It runs our batteries down, and we may not have the time or the space to clean up the little messes that we make, of being a little bit short when we ask our partner to get us a coffee, or whatever it is in any naming. Things will build up, and we won't necessarily have time and space to tend to them well.

Our brain is just automatically doing that. So when couples find themselves in that place, again, I'm going to sound a little bit like a broken record, it's that acceptance. Okay, we're in a rough patch, it happens. Let's create space to fix it, and then be curious about what is there, and be compassionate is the other piece. All right, you were a mess, I was a mess. We're human. We love each other. Let's bring our best selves forward to trying to heal what injuries are there.

With acceptance, again, to realize that if your partner has an injury, they feel hurt about something you've done, humans don't hold on to pain for fun. No one really chooses to do that. So if your partner is still hurt, still resentful, still in pain about something you did that was unkind or thoughtless or mean or whatever it is, choose an adjective, it's because it's not healed yet.

So there is no choice, if you want your relationship to be healthy, but to go back and heal that injury. Because otherwise, you will carry it around. We all do. As humans, we shove it to the back of the closet and shove it to the back of the closet, like: Oh, they didn't mean anything by it, just move on, just move on. But we are carrying it, and it will come back up. So when you're noticing, if you're in Starbucks or wherever, and you're thinking about that thing your partner said two weeks ago, there's a clue that you still have feelings about that. Accept that in yourself. Be loving to yourself. Be loving to your partner, because they didn't know you still felt upset about that thing they said two weeks ago. Be compassionate, and say: I think we've got some stuff we need to tend to. There's not really a cheat for it, like here's the magic sauce that makes that thing go away. It is the work in relationship to own our crap, excuse me, with love for ourselves and being human, and to own it and repair it when we've hurt our partner.

Absolutely. The way I'm experiencing what you're describing, with the lens of the growth opportunity or growth mindset, is the human tendency will perhaps be to avoid what feels painful or might cause a little bit of a tension point. Yet, it's not perhaps going to go away. That if we can turn towards it with a little more compassion and a little bit more intention, that it's an opportunity to clear something that might be in the way or interfering. Also, perhaps it's an opportunity for us to learn about something in ourselves or something about our partner.

Absolutely. I take sort of a Buddhist approach with this, it's an often repeated quote. Pain is mandatory in life, suffering is optional. 

The relief I see in couples when they were able to actually put the stuff down and let it go, for real. Not like, let it go, just let it go, and fake it. But actually, huh, I'm over it. It's profound. Physically, they look lighter as a result of: I was a jerk to you, and I'm really sorry. Thank you, I feel better. They're both just pounds lighter.

No kidding! I think it also deepens the intimacy. I know you talk about this too, that we have a deeper level of understanding, a deeper level of connection and intimacy, that so-called, not that we've tested it, but we've gone through something. We've overcome an obstacle, so we feel stronger together. Just to clarify, you mentioned being at the coffee shop and maybe having some hurt feelings that maybe were two weeks later, that that's a good indicator. You also talked about the procedural memory. How might somebody recognize this? Is it where they're creating associations or perceptions or meaning, like telling a story about their partners? How one might recognize it showing up?

Yeah. One of the clues I give to people is, if your partner or yourself is having a reaction that is out of proportion to the event, like you're screaming about them forgetting to pass the salt, there's something else there. That's a clue that something else is there. So if you're ruminating over a negative thought about your partner, or they're five minutes late, you're like: Oh, they're always late. You're making an always or a never kind of generalization about your partner, that's another clue that there's stuff back there that is carrying into this interaction. It's worth it to both of you. I mean, it feels better to forgive somebody than to be carrying around hurt and anger. It feels better to just forgive and to be able to let it go, and it's better. The science is showing us it's better for you. Your immune system does better when we're able to let it go. But yes, it's those associations, it's those generalizations we make about our partner, and the reacting stronger than the situation calls for, that are the clues that you're in it.

Yes, and this relates to previous injuries and trauma and attachment learnings. So that based on our lived experience, we might expect or we might feel a certain way. So to have an opportunity to really slow down, and the compassion that you're referencing, that perhaps we can hold space for that a little bit more. When that's made visible, or the vulnerability, we have a great opportunity to show up for that part and for that experience, and be able to perhaps say: Okay, can we clear a misunderstanding here, or can we look at a need here or an injury, and how we want to show up for each other differently?

Absolutely. Well, and I want to emphasize that that process, I was going to say more than any other, but just profoundly, is a team sport. You need two people to make that happen effectively. When someone is injured, they want an apology. They want to be repaired. I want you to admit that you screwed up there. I have a job to do to make it safe for you to admit that, for you to acknowledge you hurt me. Too often, the people that are injured are the righteous. I'm right, you're bad, and they will double down on it. You'll apologize, I'm so sorry I hurt you. Yeah, that was really screwed up what you did. By the way, I just want to give myself so many props that I'm not swearing in this interview.

You can, by the way.

I have such a potty mouth. On my social media, there's a hilarious clip. Because I just did a podcast with a friend of mine from college, and we were throwing around the F-bombs, and he condensed all of my swear words into one 30-second clip where all I'm doing is swearing. It's hilarious. 

Anyway. Yeah, you really screwed up. Well, now I've made it unsafe for you to acknowledge I screwed up. 

If you want an apology, you've got to do your work to make it safe for your partner to apologize to you.

I love that. Thank you so much. That was so distilled, I want to quote that. It's really, really important. Because it's in the person, the injured party, they're going to increase the chances of being responded to if they make it safe or help participate in making that interaction safer. It goes against the instincts, wanting to protest, or I need to get loud for you to hear me, or I need to give you the silent treatment, or whatever the tendencies are in the attempt to feel seen. But it can be very, very complicated when we try to take that approach. It hearkens back to the question I was asking you earlier, and I feel a great amount of compassion around this, that perhaps when there's a lot interfering with approaching this type of clearing or safe space, some folks perhaps may not have had experience where this is possible. So it's so unknown, and how do I trust this? Or I've made attempts and it's not worked, or it's only gotten worse, or I am afraid of getting rejected. All the things that might come up. You also mentioned a couple of times earlier around the one that might hide or not bring up their needs in an attempt to be harmonious or not rock the boat, so to speak. So all of these things can be interfering with even approaching this mutually participatory process. Can you say a little bit about that?

Sure, absolutely. I mean, few of us received apologies as children, and few of us saw apologies. I mean, it sounds like you had very self-aware parents, so maybe you got to see your parents make mistakes and apologize to each other. Few of us have that experience of receiving it. Many of us, in addition to that, were also taught we were supposed to be perfect. Many people only got attention or affection when they were perfect, when they brought home the straight A's, when they won their race, all that sort of stuff. So they come into a relationship with that wiring, that attachment system that says: Don't make mistakes, and if you do, pretend you didn't make them. So there's that, and I don't know what an apology looks like. I don't know what it's like to receive an apology, I don't know what I'm supposed to do. So no skills in the area, very few skills.

So that's the first thing to normalize that most of us don't know how to do this very well. It feels scary, as I'll get out, to be that vulnerable. You're a dog on the ground with your belly up in the air. It's the most vulnerable thing that we do. It's the most powerful thing we do in relationship to own our mistakes and to say, you're more important to me than being right, and I care enough about you to own my crap and tell you I'm sorry. It is so powerful and so healing for all the stuff we've been through in our life, for all the times. It sort of wipes some of the times we didn't receive apologies, getting that apology. So I can't emphasize enough how important it is.

For those couples that haven't received it, in the exercises in the book, I outline why this happens. My hope is that people will be able to find themselves and go: Oh, that's me, that's what I do that isn't safe or that makes it unsafe for my partner to apologize. Not intentionally. None of this is intentional, no one's trying to make it more difficult. It's human nature. We're doing what we were taught to do. But in identifying and being able to recognize I don't know how to do it, and: Oh yeah, I do this thing. It's done humorously because we all have these quirks and these difficulties, so that hopefully, there's a little less intensity around the fear of like, we're in this together and this is scary, and let's practice it as a skill, like learning to ride a bike or learning a language. Quite literally, it's a language. It's okay to make mistakes, let's practice it.

I have people practice it when I coach them. I have them practice it around stupid stuff first, low level, low temperature. I forgot to pass you the salt, I'm so sorry. Thank you. Then they laugh, high-five, whatever. Now we'll do: I left my socks on the floor, I'm really sorry, I know that it really upsets you when I do that. Thank you, that feels better. They start to notice, it's why I'm getting whatever shivers or whatever from it, because I've seen people actually be moved to tears over nonsensical, non-apologies. Like, I'll hand them a book, have them drop it, and apologize for dropping the book. They do it eye-to-eye, face-to-face, and I see the physiological response. I've had people cry in my office as a result of a nonsensical apology, and feel so moved by it because those words, I'm sorry, as you probably know, are programmed into our amygdala and into our emotion center. So getting those words from our partner is powerful. They practice it over stupid things and they see how powerful it is, and now they want to do it because: Ooh, now my partner wants to jump me, they're so happy with me over something silly.

Well, and also, the person that's apologizing is like, I didn't shrivel up like the wicked, or I didn't like collapse into nothing. I still am here and we're fine, and actually, it feels better. I can absolutely appreciate. There are certain couples that, perhaps in the dynamics, one may never have had really a quality apology.

It's really, really common. Before this relationship, I may have had five meaningful apologies in my whole life. Not because I'm surrounded by jerks. My family loves me deeply and they're fantastic, but it just wasn't. I'm whatever, waspy, everything is fine sort of culture, we don't apologize. So it just didn't happen.

Yeah. Carolyn, I know we're winding down. It just seems like this also perhaps supports people who have had many experiences together where there is resentment or there is a backlog of unresolved feelings or hurts, that just having some interactions, even if it's small on the continuum of significance, that we can start getting some iteration and some footing. This is what could possibly happen as we start trusting that there can be repair, and then we start piece by piece, working with what feels doable.

Yeah, absolutely. That, and I'm a big emphasizer of not just doing the hard work. We're in a pickle, we're in a hole. We don't really like each other. We've got a lot of stuff, a backlog of pain that we need to work through and forgive. Let that not be the only focus. Let's go to the movies. Let's go for a walk. Let's remind ourselves what we like about each other, because both can be true. We can be really hurt and angry with each other, and we can still think each other is the funniest, smartest person in the room. Do both. So that you're remembering, even in the hard work, we can have fun together, we can play together. That's a really important muscle to build, because that is a real universal truth. 

I agree, the and. It gives so much more room to build with the positive and the play, and that it doesn't negate the difficult feelings that are still in process. It can be an and, that there can be a lot more ability to hold these disparate things together. I think it's really, really important. Well, we've covered a lot of ground. It feels a little circular how I approached it. I just want to say, is there anything that we haven't gotten to that you feel is helpful in what we've discussed today, that you want to mention?

I think emphasizing that it's a life's work to build a healthy relationship, and that over a lifetime together, you're both going to change a lot, and that's good. There's room for that. Holding it as, we need to get back to where we were when we met, we're not in love like we used to be. No, of course you're not, you're not supposed to be. Your relationship is going to evolve, and you're going to go through hard things, you're going to go through great things. Let it change and continue to do the work to be clear about what your relationship needs, what your partner needs, what you need in the relationship, so that you can continue to grow and tend to it.

Thank you, Carolyn. One of the things I appreciated about your book is that you give principles and exercises and focus, but there's so much range around what someone can be experiencing, but gives a lot of ability to offer guidance around how to negotiate. The principles give such structure for it that give a lot of safety, but also permission. Tell us a little bit more if that resonates, and then also about your book here.

Yeah, the principles were something that felt really foundational to me to get clear on. Just like I recommend for couples to get clear on the why of your relationship, those principles are the why of my work with couples and my belief system about relationships in general, both romantic relationships and all of the relationships out in the world, that this is the best way to live. So it really felt foundational to everything I do. Everybody has different reactions to different principles, like: Oh, I'm not sure about that one. I love having that dialogue about the spicier ones that people are like: No, this sounds like codependence, or no, that sounds like losing myself. It's like, well, let's hear what naturally is evoked in you as you read this, and think about this for yourself. You don't have to agree with them all to benefit from the ideas. So those principles are really deeply important to me as a person and as a professional, as I try and help couples, people, the world, to be grandiose about it, and trying to heal some of the broken relationships that exist out there.

Yes. Well, you're utilizing a lot of evidence-based research and integrating a lot of science and theory here that is substantiated. So tell us about your book again, the name.

So my book is Fired Up: Four Secrets to Reigniting Intimacy and Joy in Your Relationship. Those four secrets, it's built around a metaphor of building a fire, which my husband is a scientist, so he would tell you all the chemical reasons for this. But building a healthy fire requires three ingredients: oxygen, ignition, and fuel. I've added the fourth, which is that foundation or the container for that, which is those purpose and values and agreements that hold a relationship up. So it really goes through every component that a healthy relationship needs, and is designed to serve couples that are thinking about forming a life together or who have been in a life together for 40 years. My hope is that people could read it and then apply it and have, that's the feedback that I'm getting, applied to their work relationships or with their difficult mother-in-law or whatever it is. They're applying it and it's helping them in those areas, and that's the dream, that people learn healthier relationships and learn to be kinder out in the world.

Yes, I appreciate what you're describing. One thing, as you're talking, I'm reminded of what you were saying in your development as a professional and the social work, or even the systems and the supporting children, the non-judgment. Your voice in the book, I felt, was so practical and allowing and normalizing. I'm not sure how you did that, but it was really approachable, but also so informative, that it just feels very easy to follow, even though you're very directive about it too. So it's a good balance.

I'm a sneaky little boss. Here's what you need to do. But look at me, I have troubles with that as well. That's high praise, and I really, really appreciate it. That was what I was going for. I do really want all types of couples to find themselves there and find examples of the ways we get ourselves in trouble, and that it's easier to get yourself out than you're realizing. Avoiding it is never the answer, and there are some key things that you can do that will universally help you in all areas.

Awesome. So where can people get the book?

They can get it anywhere books are sold. So they can get it at the big bookstores, they can get it at their independent bookstores, and on my website, they can get it directly from me through indie pubs.

Wonderful. I'll have the link to your website on today's show notes. But do you want to say where people can find you?

Sure, I am at either CarolynSharp.com or SecureConnectionsRetreats.com.

Excellent. So do you want to say anything about your retreats?

I started doing retreats in 2018, I think, and was continuing to build them, and then COVID hit. So I took a little break, because no one was going on retreats, and had my first international retreat in Tuscany in October, which was amazing. A group of wonderful couples went, and we explored the wine region and Florence and a 14th century villa. I'm doing my second one at that same villa with the same private chef cooking for us and touring us around Tuscany. So it's a week-long retreat in Tuscany for any couples that want to deepen their relationship, in Tuscany.

I love it, wonderful! Well, I'll make sure to have that website on our show notes as well. Is there anything else you want to mention about what people would find on your website?

There's a blog. There's resources. They can work with me for couples’ therapy or for coaching, if they'd like. So I have courses and retreats and all kinds of things. I'm just always developing new ways to support couples in having easier, healthier, deeper relationships.

Wonderful. Well, Carolyn, thank you so much for your time today. It's been a treat to have you.

Thank you so much for having me.