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About this episode

When love turns toxic, it can be almost impossible to see clearly through the confusion, self-doubt, and emotional chaos that follow. If you've ever found yourself trapped in a cycle of hope, heartbreak, and uncertainty within a relationship, you’re not alone—and there’s a reason why breaking free can feel so overwhelming. The hidden dynamics of pathological partnerships and trauma bonds often keep people stuck, questioning their worth, and struggling to understand why things never seem to get better.

In this episode, listeners are offered insight and validation as the conversation unpacks the complex nature of trauma bonds and toxic relationships. You’ll discover how these destructive patterns form, what psychological traits might make someone more susceptible, and why distinguishing between harmful behaviors and truly pathological intentions is so important. With practical guidance and real-life examples, this episode shines a compassionate light on the path toward healing, empowerment, and, for those who need it most, a way out.

Affectionately known as Dr. Nae, Dr. Nadine Macaluso is a therapist specializing in trauma healing and personal transformation. Her life inspired the character Naomi Belfort in The Wolf of Wall Street. After overcoming personal challenges, she earned a Master's degree in counseling and a Ph.D. in Somatic Psychotherapy. Dr. Macaluso helps individuals recover from trauma bonds, C-PTSD, and shame. She is also the author of Run Like Hell: A Therapist's Guide to Recognizing, Escaping, and Healing From Trauma Bonds.

Episode Highlights

06:28 Dr. Nadine Macaluso’s personal journey and the roots of her work on trauma bonds.

09:49 Defining trauma bonds and the role of intermittent reinforcement in toxic relationships.

13:35 Intent, power imbalance, and the pathological partner in trauma bonds.

16:11 Pathological intent vs. reactive behaviors and repair.

19:20 Understanding Cluster B personality disorders and their impact on relationships.

21:23 Empowering the victim over diagnosing the pathological partner.

24:11 Who is most susceptible to trauma bonds?

28:16 Questioning labels: Codependency, attachment, and rethinking victim narratives.

32:34 Attachment styles, developmental trauma, and their role in toxic relationships.

34:31 Cultural myths about love, media influence, and the hope that keeps people stuck.

37:20 Reducing shame, cognitive dissonance, and reconnecting with self.

42:47 The process of leaving: Safety, planning, and overcoming guilt.

44:30 Post-traumatic growth: Finding strength, hope, and empowerment after leaving a toxic relationship.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Learn the signs and dynamics of trauma bonds and toxic relationships, including intermittent reinforcement and power imbalances.
• Take personality assessments (like the Big Five) to understand traits such as agreeableness and conscientiousness, which may make you more susceptible.
• Practice mindfulness or grounding techniques, such as deep, intentional breathing, to regulate your nervous system before taking action.
• Be aware of the confusion caused by a partner's shifting behaviors (the Romeo vs. Dirty John dynamic) and start to question recurring patterns.
• If planning to leave, quietly prepare finances, documents, and support resources while maintaining normalcy to avoid alerting the pathological partner.
• Find a trauma-informed therapist or join a support group like Dr. Nay’s ‘Survivor Thriver’ community to get guidance and validation.
• Identify your boundaries, needs, and core values, and write a personal mission statement to serve as your “North Star” when making difficult decisions.
• Reach out to trusted friends, family, or professionals, and remember that resilience grows through connection, not isolation.

Mentioned

Run Like Hell (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Women Who Love Psychopaths (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Evolve in Love – Next Level (program)

Evolve in Love – Next level – Book Your Discovery Call

Big 5 Personality Quiz 

Essentia’s website (*Affiliate link)

Stratami™ Organic Mattress (This is the mattress we purchased) (*Affiliate link)

Classic REM5 Active Mattress – (The mattress we wish we could have gotten for the cooling feature) (*Affiliate link)

Connect with Dr. Nadine Macaluso

Websites: drnae.com

Facebook: facebook.com/drnaelmft

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YouTube: youtube.com/c/TheRealDrNadine

Instagram: instagram.com/therealdrnadine

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/therealdrnadine

TikTok: tiktok.com/@drnaelmft

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like it to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon, if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Dr. Nae, thank you for joining us.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

I am as well. You have done so much to develop yourself in the psychological space and just your training around complex PTSD, also as it relates to trauma bonding, particularly in intimate relationship. I know you share very publicly, your story around how this became of interest. For people who maybe don't know you, who are listening, I know we could spend the whole episode, I'm sure many more, talking about your story. But what would you like people to know about where you're coming from here with this topic?

Yeah. So when I was 22 years old, I fell into, unbeknownst to me, the quintessential trauma bond. Over 25 years ago, nobody was talking about trauma bonds or narcissism. But I fell in love with my ex-husband, Jordan Belfort, aka the Wolf of Wall Street, and hence, he wrote a book and made a movie. So as I mentioned, I didn't know I was in a trauma bond back then, but I knew that something was wrong. We had a very tumultuous relationship filled with drug addiction and greed and verbal and emotional abuse, and at one point, physical abuse. So then, at 31, I did leave him. As I say, I took my kids and my curtains, I left without any money, because he got arrested on 11 counts of money laundering, and I restarted my life. And I, seven years later, became a therapist.

Yes. If I'm understanding correctly, that people have really gravitated towards you and what you have to offer, who are struggling with these toxic cycles in relationship. This has become your purpose in being able to support people.

Yeah. I always say, I couldn't have really written it better if I tried. I never had some grand scheme. When you're a young girl, you're not like: When I grow up, I'm going to be a trauma bond whisperer. You don't think that. But, well, the experience happened. I thought I escaped, and it was like: Okay, all behind me. I did so much work in my own therapy around it. I moved across the country, restarted my life, hence he wrote a book and made a movie. Of course I struggled with that, but I was in therapy for many, many years to deal with all that. But how lucky for me, now I get to take this blockbuster of a movie that's Martin Scorsese's biggest movie, it's done 500 million worldwide, and educate people all about toxic relationships and trauma bonds. So it all worked out.

I mean, look, there are tremendously traumatic experiences and difficult experiences that we live through that we wouldn't want to happen, wish to happen, or want to happen to anyone else. Yet, the choice and how we choose to navigate, that really can be an opportunity of real healing and growth. Not to put a positive spin on it, but just that there can be some real purpose that can come through.

Yeah, and that's one thing that I'm glad you brought that up. We're not promoting toxic positivity here. But when trauma does bring us to our knees, because it always does. Nobody comes into my office like: Hey, Dr. Nae, I'm feeling great, you want to chat? No, they're usually coming because life has brought them to their knees, and unfortunately, the body and brain are forced to grow through trauma and through threat. So we do have that choice. Sometimes it's not always easy to make that choice, and even if that choice to grow doesn't happen right away, it's always there.

Absolutely, and how to orient through all of this. I think that's one thing that, having been through the experience and being an expert in this particular area, can really help people know how to navigate and orient. It's really complex. There's a lot of layers around getting just the stability and the safety to be able to leave a situation that perhaps is toxic. There's so many layers to this.

Okay. So just for people listening, I recognize a lot of people perhaps aren't identifying with being in a toxic relationship or even a trauma bond. Just let me pause on that side note. I've always thought trauma bond could be really generalized to any traumatic experience, and that kind of bonding that can happen going through that level of intense, overwhelming experience together. But you're using it specifically towards romantic relationship. Is that right?

Yeah, that is a thing that's out there in pop culture, that if we both experience trauma, we can bond over it. That's not what a trauma bond is. A trauma bond is a toxic, dysfunctional relationship between two emotionally attached people. But there are a few things that differentiate it. The first one is, one of the partners wants power and control over the other one. So in healthy relationships, somebody might have a little bit more power in this area, a little bit more power in that area, but generally they're equals. But not in a trauma bond. The second thing is, there’s usually a power imbalance, hence why somebody can have power and control—due to finances, due to maybe the pathological partner being dominating and threatening. Then also, the third piece is intermittent reinforcement, which is that behavioral pattern of: 70% of the time they're cruel and controlling and unkind, but 30% of the time they're loving and generous and helpful. So that's what actually creates the bond in the trauma bond.

Yeah. For people listening, they may or may not know, but the intermittent reinforcement, as you're describing, is one of the most powerful ways of that desire to continue to do the behavior. This is why gambling or casinos work.

Right, it's like a relationship where you're sitting right at the slot machine, just waiting for the big hit to come. I say, hope is the hook, because that 30% usually does come back around. Then you're like: Oh, there he/she is, I knew they were in there all the time. That's the first person I met. But then give it some time, that cruel person is going to come back. I call the two masks Dirty John and Romeo.

That's helpful.

Yeah, it's helpful, just to delineate it and have discernment and make it easier to understand. Because when you're first hearing these concepts, you're like, wait, what is this?

Yes, and I wonder if you can speak to more of the continuum. Because oftentimes, people can fall on a spectrum, particularly how they might show up and what behaviors they might exhibit. You mentioned a host of various ways that can be abusive behaviors. Sometimes people don't have the intent to hurt and can behave in ways that are toxic or are abusive, but again, without that intent to hurt. It's that protective part of them that's reacting and does act out of pain, and that can be very, very harmful. It's not diminishing the impact. But the constellation here, it sounds like you're really specifically looking at people.

Because even when we look at power imbalance, it's like, what is the intention and what's the couple dynamic? Are they intending to be collaborative? Are they intending to be generous around how they're relating that equity in their relationship? Or are they really looking to seek that one-upping and that dominance or that power? So coming back to the question, are you really focused on one part of this continuum where people, you mentioned mood disorders, impulsivity, and personality, perhaps, disorder, and you mentioned narcissism here. So are you looking at a really specific part of people here? Because I do think some of those abusive behaviors do exist in relationship, but it's not perhaps what you're describing.

Yeah. So I think you brought up a very important word, intention. 

So you and I don't go into a relationship with that intent. My belief is that anybody that does is immensely unwell, and that's what pathological means. So it's all about the intention.

Now, have I reacted angrily and in ways that I'm not proud of in all of my relationships, especially my romantic ones? For sure. People have a term for that. Especially if you're in a trauma bond, it's reactive abuse, where you are reacting to being coercively controlled, to being manipulated, to being abused. After a certain time, you've just had it. There's something called situational couples violence, meaning that couples argue where to live, the car to drive, how many kids to have. Of course, we all argue. But what also is different in that sort of scenario is, there usually is some sort of repair. 

So I am particularly looking at a pathological individual that has malevolent intention when they enter into romance.

I do think this can be further complicated as you're describing this reactivity, like the trauma reaction. Sometimes people come into intimate relationship with an upbringing that has a lot of trauma, and that can live in their nervous system, which then definitely gets activated in intimate relating. Sometimes people aren't even super intentional, but the reactivity, it's almost like they feel overcome by their reactivity or they're unconscious to some of these protectives. And you're saying the repair, that's a really important component around reestablishing and having that empathy and compassion that you're referring to, that allows for more intimacy. That there's a finding one another.

Yeah. If you or I act out, it's going to feel ego dystonic. I'm not going to like it. I'm going to feel ashamed. I felt ashamed many days in my life. But with a pathological person who has a personality disorder, it's ego syntonic, meaning that's just who they are. They don't think it's bad.

Perhaps when you talk about the 30% in that bigger constellation of a toxic relationship where they are being, what was the name for the nice one?

Oh, Romeo.

Romeo, yeah. When Romeo shows up, that that is perhaps part of bringing the partner close.

Exactly, and that's the very hard part when I work with the women that I work with. Because I mostly work with women, and this can happen to men too. So I say to them, I'm going to say something really hard to you. I want you to brace yourself. The Romeo, the nice part, was part of a manipulation. That's hard to hear when you love somebody.

Oh, for sure. How do you distinguish between? Maybe you don't, I don't know, but let me ask that then. Do you distinguish between this continuum where partners are experiencing some level of abuse and there's a lot of complicating variables, and it might be getting close to the pathological manifestation? Or do you feel like the criteria is so clear?

It's so clear. Because even if, which most of us have had some form of developmental trauma, even if it was an abuse neglect. I haven't met a perfect parent, myself included. If we come into a relationship, and we all do, with our own baggage, you can heal that, and often that can heal within the relationship. But personality disorders, especially Cluster B’s, borderline we know has more healing capacity. But the other ones, they're harder to heal from, to recover from.

For people listening who don't know the Cluster B, do you want to describe that briefly?

Yeah. So when you're a therapist, you learn about personality disorders, which is a pervasive pattern of being in all areas of your life. A Cluster B personality disorder is: narcissism, antisocial personality disorder, borderline. We don't really use histrionic anymore, but we could throw it in. Relationship with those people are very dramatic and erratic, and you'll feel that when you're in relationship with them. Actually, I think they were thinking of changing those to inter-personality disorders, because they affect the people that love them so much, these relationships. It could be with a mother, a brother, a friend, but we're talking about lovers here. They are filled with drama, a lot of instability.

Yes, and to meet criteria for that. I mean, you're referencing our diagnostic manual that really helps with this. There's clear criteria.

You have to check seven of the nine criteria, or five of the nine.

So are you looking for that when you are helping someone identify to what level of toxicity is, or the level of abuse that they're in?

I don't really assess a person that's not in my room. I mean, I can have a generalized idea of the person, but for me, that's not even so important. I think what happens in social media is that, and I understand this, is that we get so focused on the other. Listen, it's good to describe who that other person is. But when you're in a trauma bond and you're so focused on the other, because you're going to have to be, to survive. I really work with my patients on, let's turn the mirror back on you. Who are you? What are your personality traits? What are your attachment patterns? What do you like? what do you need? Not that we don't, because I have to give psychoeducation about that, for sure. But I'm less about diagnosing, more about resourcing, strengthening, and empowering the person who's in front of me.

I love that. I'm so with you on the focus of that. I mean, that's where all the work can really happen. I think that question comes from, I've even had people here on the show that have really focused on people around personality disorders and really looking at the sense of self and how fragile that ego sense of self is, and really having a lot of compassion and recognition around just their journey and difficulty. So I struggle to be kind of like: Ooh, bad person, and then just push them away. And when you're really looking at focusing on health, wellbeing, secure functioning, and healthy relationship, when there is real indication that this person likely will not change, that's a real shift. That's a shift away from, there's some ways in which we might be able to grow together, and you mentioned the hope. What did you say the hope is?

The hope is the hook. Listen, I am obsessed with the relationships. I mean, love, love everywhere. I have been married for 25 years. I have the most amazing relationships with my children and stepchildren. So I'm so relational, hence why I'm a therapist. And there are certain people that are unsafe. It's almost that simple, they're unsafe.

That doesn't mean they're bad in their core, but they're not safe to be around.

They're not safe to love.

Yes, I love that. That's such a really powerful distinction. I have even felt, in my own life, that that really has allowed me to stand on some ground to set boundaries, is I don't feel safe right now. It's kind of inarguable. It's less about a person, but more about just a particular way of relating that I'm not willing to participate in this anymore. That feels really clear to me, and that is something I can stand on.

Yeah, love that.

So is there anything that you want to say more about it? I mean, we've talked here about just what a trauma bond is and how to recognize that, some of the features of it. We've also talked about just the pathological lover and how that might be very different than couples that get into real disconnect cycles that may even be toxic. Is there anything else you want to say about it? Because I guess I'm curious, one of the things you help people understand is who might be a little bit more susceptible or certain ways. Do you want to go there or is there anything else you want to say here?

Yeah, so there are people that are more susceptible. I learned about this in 2019. I read a great book by Sandra Brown, called Women Who Love Psychopaths. She had done so much research around who is this victim of intimate partner violence, trauma bond, coercive control, whatever we want to call it. In psychological jargon, let's say, we've said: they're codependent, they're a bad picker, they've learned helplessness. That never really stuck right with me, having experienced it and having witnessed these people. She said, a lot of these people score very high in two personality traits: agreeableness and conscientiousness. That's after something called the Big Five of personality assessment. It measures openness to experience, conscientiousness, extroversion, agreeableness, and neuroticism. When she wrote that, I took the test. Guess who scores very high in both? Beep.

So a light bulb went on in my head, and it's one of the reasons why I wrote my book, because I really wanted to turn the stigma on the victim. Instead of saying, why does she stay? It's like, well, let's really look at our personality traits, let's look at the dynamics of this complex situation. I'm very agreeable. So what does that mean? I'm tolerant, I'm loyal, I'm cooperative, I'm pro-social, and relationships are everything to me. I'm conscientious, meaning I'm diligent. That's why I got my PhD. I can get things done. So the combination of those two things are good traits, terrible in a trauma bond.

So spell that out for people.

My commitments, my diligence. I'm going to work this out, we're going to fix this together, and I love you. There's a goodness in people, and I trust and I'm cooperative. Again, great qualities when you and I go to dinner, but not good qualities with a pathological person because they're going to prey on them.

Yes. I imagine ways in which this might play out is that if an agreement is made, the person that operates in more of those pathological ways will feel no responsibility perhaps to those agreements, where the more conscientious one will be absolutely upholding their end. Or if things get off track, they're going to reflect and evaluate, what could I have done better or how could I have contributed? So leaving no stone unturned, so to speak, around how to improve the dynamics. Is that right?

100%. So when I was with my ex, as the movie depicts, he was such a severe drug addict. So I couldn't even really discern anything almost past the drug addiction, not even understanding all these other different layers. So they were like, he's an addict and you're codependent. So what did I do? I'm codependent. Listen, I don't regret any of the work I did, it's not a bad thing. But it was the wrong label because, first of all, I have avoidant attachment, so I'm really not so codependent and I'm very self-reliant. But it made me responsible for his addiction and abuse, like I enabled it. Guess what? Jordan Belfort was going to be an addict and abuse his wife no matter who it was.

I've only seen that movie once, by the way.

Oh, you've got to watch it again now.

I will, absolutely. I saw it so, so many years ago. I think I may have even seen it in the theater.

Maybe, because 2013 was when it came out.

Oh gosh, so 12 years ago. I remember the one scene that just stuck with me, is the scene about how incredibly altered state of consciousness driving home. I was like, this is outrageous, I can't even believe this happened. I mean, obviously it's dramatized.

No, but that all happened. So those labels that we give to victims, of learned helplessness, I just think they shame the victim. So I'd rather be like, let's look at their personality traits, let's look at their attachment patterns, let's look at if they've had developmental trauma. To me, that's so much more productive.

Thank you. I'm so curious, as you bring up attachment, constellation, or even developmental trauma, what are you seeing?

Yeah. 

Then what I saw was that I also organized more dependent women. I'm not even saying dependent personality disorder, but they would score higher in agreeableness, low in conscientiousness. This is just through my own experience. This isn't like I did any big research, but through lived experience in vivo. The women with CPTSD often scored low in agreeableness, but very high in conscientiousness. Because their achievement a lot of times was what they could rely on.

Absolutely, over-functioning and compensating.

Yes. But a lot of them don't score high on agreeableness, because the person that was supposed to protect them and trust them didn't. Now, anybody and everybody can fall for them. But I just find it's nice to educate and use psychoeducation with these women. Because then we're like, what's your strengths, what's your weaknesses, how do we resource you? That's so much less shaming.

For sure. Dr. Nae, I'm smiling at you, because in some ways, you're saying it's not going to be formulaic. That constellation or attachment styles may play into the relation, and often do in every relationship. And it's not, because of this, you're in an abusive or toxic relationship or trauma bond. Or because you've had early developmental trauma, that you are now choosing someone who is going to abuse you because it feels so familiar. It doesn't fit that.

Right. Because in my home, my mother never yelled at me once. Then the first time I got yelled at by him, I was like, what's happening? I had no point of reference for what was happening in my relationship, because I'd never experienced. I grew up in a very calm, peaceful home, albeit imperfect. So I just had to debunk all that, because it made me so crazy.

Well, and it's not to say that it doesn't play a role. It may actually play a role with some people. But what I hear your bigger point is, is that it cannot be reduced to an exact science or formula. That you're really inviting people to use this as like, let's look at the human being that's in this experience, and the toxicity that they're experiencing is the problem. Can we identify that rather than shaming or blaming that they did something to deserve this or to play into it?

That's ridiculous, yeah. So that really was why I wrote my book because I just turned that whole stigma on its head with tons of research. I've had so many women say to me, your book validated me. It was a lifeline. It gave me motivation to leave. It's the only thing that's made sense to them. Because I take four trauma bonded couples and I weave their experiences out throughout all the clinical material, to bring the clinical material to life.

Yeah, it's humanizing, and it gives a lot more dimension. I think for science, even we reference the diagnostic manual, statistical manual. That is giving language and category to bodies of research, for purposes to be able to have a language for other clinicians to talk to each other, to have a sense, and how people fit on a bell curve, so to speak. Yet, when we're talking about real humans and lived life, to not reduce them to just that. Some of those languages can be helpful to have a sense of what am I experiencing. But it's not usually exact textbook.

Very true.

Okay. Do you think, and I'm curious, as you talk about just this shock of after being married and now in this position of experiencing abusive behavior towards you, when that was not at all what you had experienced prior, do you feel like whether or not for you or just other people? I think culturally this is changing, but loving love and loving relationships, sometimes there is this romanticized notion that the dating and the romance, and then we can just lean into that and that there is a happily ever after. Oftentimes, the neurochemicals settle, we have to really negotiate with the person around who this is. But do you think that that was an added, not a primary, but an added support? Do you want to say more about that?

Sure. Listen, I grew up in the 80s, I think there was the most codependent songs ever written in the 80s. Just this longing for this love, and that love is full of pain and love is full of sacrifice. Pretty Woman came out right before I met my ex, Someday Your Prince. I do this a lot, and in fact, I'm doing a post right now. It's going to come out soon, playing the song Someday My Prince Will Come. Because yes, I totally believed the Disney myth of romantic love, 150%. It was like, wait, what the hell is this? This is not what I envisioned. I think culture plays a huge part in how we perceive love.

For sure, and it's part of the hope, perhaps.

Yeah. 

They lock eyes across the room, and that's the one forever, and they live happily ever after. Well, there's a reason why we never know what happens to Cinderella.

Well, coming back to taking the stigma off of the victim and helping people not feel that it's their fault or they did something wrong, what do you help them learn? Is there something you say to them? Because I think what you're really saying is, this is not okay, this is not safe. Period.

Yeah. So the way I work is, first of all, I give them the assessments, so I can teach them about themselves. I teach them about the pathological lover. But then we have to stabilize them, because they have been in relational trauma. So we work on really stabilizing with self-care. Then I really also work with them around dissolving cognitive dissonance. Because of the two masks, the Romeo and Dirty John, they have severe cognitive dissonance, meaning they're so confused and they have so much mental discomfort. Is he good? Is he bad? Am I good? Am I bad? Where are my standards? Is it healthy or toxic? So he brought me tea in the morning, but then he's texting another woman in the night. So the woman who's in that relationship, they never land on a resolution because they're always comparing and contrasting.

So part of their work is really dissolving the cognitive dissonance through understanding that it's not two people, it's one pathological partner, with themselves, because they lose themselves. Really getting into what are their values and creating a mission statement around their values, so that they always have a north star to go home to, because they're very confused. So there's a lot of that really working with the cognitive dissonance, because it's a big obstacle in healing.

Absolutely. This might connect, and I feel like you might have even just answered my question that I'm about to ask. But before I say that, I just want to really appreciate the work that you're doing. That there's a safe space that people can turn to really get orientation around what is true, what is healthy, what is sense of self, and try to work with some of this confusion and metabolize some of this intensity and the dissonance that you're referencing. Because without support, it's just tremendous to try to go this alone.

Too much, you can't. We know resilience can't be built in isolation. It can't be.

No. So my question was, being in the helping professional space and having people turn to you for guidance, a lot of times it can be a tricky position to tell someone, this is who your partner is, this is what your relationship is. Because then that confusion can get transferred to you around like, do I trust you?

Oh, for sure.

It sounds like, just even from the little you've said here, that you're helping people get information, find themselves, have visibility, work through some of the cognitive dissonance, that they begin to see the choice and the decision for themselves. Is that right?

Yes, and it also depends on how long they've been in the trauma bond. So when somebody comes to me, I'm assessing how open to all of this. Usually, by the time they get to me, they've seen me on Instagram, they know that this is what I do, so they're wanting the validation. But of course, I've had people come once and never come back, because they're not ready. So I have to be very mindful and meet the person where they are, always assessing how much can they take in. Because it's very sad, and you have this illusion of this relationship, and you thought that it was one thing, and then you find out it's totally not. Then you get validated from, I don't want to call myself an expert, but somebody who very well knows what's happening here in the field. That yes, what I'm thinking is correct. It's not like, all of a sudden, you're happy. Your whole world is shattered now.

And their lives are blended together. Children, home, finances, all of it.

Which is difficult to tolerate. I mean, talk about dissonance.

Oh, people, even if they've left, they’re like, how long till I'm going to feel better? I'm like, two years.

And that's after leaving.

Yeah, that's after leaving. So you can imagine when they're in it, and of course it's different for everybody, how much developmental trauma they had, if they've been in therapy before. So that also counts too. But this is what I always say. My poor sweet therapist, I went to her every Monday at 1:00 PM the second I met my ex-husband, she sat with me for eight years. So whenever I feel my counter-transference getting frustrated, I think of her. I'm like, put your patient's hat on, sister. She sat with me for eight years.

Yes. You're saying, as you just prefaced, that there's a lot of variables, and not every person is dealing with the same pain or difficulty and level of resource. So how do you help people negotiate this very difficult time? I mean, it's just traumatic all around from. It's not like it's more difficult, but also it can feel like that's part of sometimes growth, is it feels harder before it starts to feel better. So what do you help people with? I know this is probably part of what you offer in your programs and your book. But do you want to give some people here listening, a sense of how to set oneself up to leave safely or transition here?

So I have a saying, don't ever let them see you coming. Because if this is a person that wants power and control over you, once you say: Hey, I'm out, you think they're going to be like, bye? No, they're not. The gloves are going to be off usually. Unless they've discarded you, which they do that quite often as well, but a lot of times when the other person is leaving, I say now you have to wear the mask. You have to pretend that everything's fine.

Which goes against the agreeableness and the conscientiousness.

They feel so guilty. I have a saying, you have to tolerate the guilt of protecting yourself. I say that 10 times a day in my work, at least. I'm really going to get a bumper sticker that says that. So then, finances, credit cards, bank accounts. If you're married, you have to get legal counsel. Sometimes I say get a divorce coach. A lot of times, financially, they can't leave. I say, go to Walmart and Target and get bank cards, like gift cards. You have to really prepare for this moment.

Now, a lot of people, what they do is they prepare, and I had one woman like this recently, and her husband or her partner went away. He came back, she was gone. Because she had spent six months preparing. But if you're married and you have kids, you can't do that. So it's difficult. If you are in a situation where there is domestic violence, and coercive control is now recognized in eight states, you have to document it, this is a very hard thing for many victims. You have to call the police. Because if this person is an abuser, you need to start this divorce process off on the right foot. But I understand it's super scary and super hard. That's why you need someone like me or you, somebody to hold your hand through the process.

Absolutely. I mean, the terror of making that decision and calling the police.

It can feel so overwhelming. But the number one thing is you have to keep yourself safe. I always say, I got lucky. My ex got arrested, and that's when I left. I got lucky because then the power imbalance shifted. He didn't have the power anymore. So not everybody has that luck. I was unlucky in a lot of other ways with him, but in that way.

It was an intervention.

It was a divine intervention, for sure. I was like, bye-bye.

You had probably been planning.

I had been wanting.

Yeah, contemplating it, maybe pre-contemplating it.

Yeah, definitely. Figuring out, fantasizing, how am I going to do this? Then once it was there, I said: Okay, this is my chance. And it was still hard.

Wow, okay. I'm grateful you had somewhere to go and you had support and you were able to get a therapist and really get all the things to help you.

You have to remember though, this was so long ago, nobody was even talking about this. But that's okay, we're here now today.

Yeah. Well, I know we're winding down. One of the things we've referenced already, and I would love to hear your voice around, is just what can come through the process of leaving. Again, it's not that it's a silver lining, but there can be a stronger sense of self, there can be a real sense of learning and healing and purpose. Do you want to speak to what you see here?

Yeah. 

Like you say, often you have to feel the pain before you feel the good. But life has no meaning for them. They feel so much stronger because they can't believe what they've done and overcome. Sometimes spirituality can deepen, relationships can deepen. So there's so much personal growth that can occur from this. Here's the thing, you never want to do that again. So it forces you to grow. It really forces you to look inside and be reflective. I could say that's really one of the greatest gifts that I got from it, aside from my two kids, that I had no choice. But to dig deep, and once you dig deep and do the real work, as my mother always said, that's constructive pain. You're working towards a better life, and it's very, very possible. I've pulled many, many people across the finish line.

That's so beautiful, and also encouraging for people to know what's possible. One of the things, I was making a little bit of a face, that perhaps if we're in a place of optimism or giving people a lot of benefit of the doubt, to have something like this or know someone who's gone through this, it's like, this is possible and this does happen. And having those boundaries, those protections, and that sense of self. Like, I'm not doing that, or I'm not going to entertain that in the hope that it could get better. That there are ways. If we have experienced something really difficult, we are going to be more mindful. It doesn't mean that we're going to walk around and fear always. Maybe we'll have a little more heads-up about things, but we are going to hold ourselves or manage ourselves in ways knowing that things are possible.

And that we didn't before, the naiveté is gone.

I didn't want to say that.

I know, but it's true, and that's okay.

I also make a face that it's other people's pathology that require this. So I think that's one of the things too, that when we're dealing with someone who's behaving in such ways, it's like they make it other people's problems because they're not safe. So now other people have to be responsible either to handle it, take care of it, or set limits and boundaries around it. So we're saying naive, but also, it's unfortunate that it's part of the situation, and that's part of what you're helping people understand.

And it's empowering, because you're not going to be tricked again, and it gives you a new way to look at the world. Everything in life is a paradox anyway. I've discovered at the ripe old age of 57, everything's a paradox.

Yeah, the wisdom. I couldn't agree with you more. So Dr. Nae, what would you like to point people towards? Would you like to tell people about your book, and then what you would like to invite?

My book got published last January, and it's called Run Like Hell: A Therapist's Guide to Recognize and Escaping and Healing from Trauma Bonds. Women tell me it's wonderful. Because when you write a book, you don't really know because you're so in it, and it really becomes a survival guide if you're in this. Then, of course I am a therapist, but what I realized is I wanted to democratize all of the education. Because not everybody can afford to come to therapy one-on-one. So I started a community called Surthriver. It's on my website, DrNae.com, very inexpensive. I have a course that goes with my book, and I have a whole community where everybody's in there healing from this. It's so beautiful. It's really beautiful.

Thank you for offering that. I love the spin on Survivor.

Yeah. You can find me on @TheRealDrNadine on Instagram, or the Wild West of Social Media, TikTok, which sometimes still scares me, DrNaeLMFT. But just come say hi and let me know if you have any questions. Thank you so much for having me.

Absolutely, I'll make sure to put all of those links in today's show notes. Thank you so much for sharing everything you've shared here today.

Thank you so much. Have a great day.