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About this episode

Is sex in long-term relationships destined to fade into routine, become awkward, unsatisfying, or quietly avoided? Many couples find themselves sidestepping desire, making silent assumptions, or repeating the same old script while craving deeper connection and renewed excitement. The outcome is often sexual boredom, miscommunication, and a growing emotional distance that affects the entire relationship.

What if the key to lasting passion isn't just about technique? What if it lives in courageous, ongoing conversations about consent, desire, and our evolving needs?

In this episode, listeners are invited into a candid and creative exploration of sexual communication. Consent is reframed as more than a one-time agreement; it becomes a fluid and continuous dialogue that keeps intimacy alive. You'll discover how to make these conversations feel natural and exciting instead of awkward, how to face vulnerability and disappointment with compassion, and how to sustain erotic curiosity over time. Whether you're looking for fresh insight or practical tools to reignite intimacy, this episode offers both inspiration and guidance to help you co-create a relationship that grows with you.

Danielle Harel, Ph.D and Celeste Hirschman, M.A. are thought leaders in the intimate realm. As the founders of the Somatica® Institute of sex and relationship coaching, they have created experiential and relational teaching methods to revolutionize sex coaching and help people transform their sex lives and relationships forever. They are the authors of 3 books and the lead sexologists on a soon-to-be-released UK-based reality TV show. They will enliven and enlighten audiences with talks about everything in the realms of intimacy, sexuality and relationship as well as the power of vulnerable leadership in teaching, business, and in building community.

Episode Highlights

06:06 How curiosity, culture, and compatibility shape sexual expression.

10:00 Why a beginner’s mindset matters in long-term sexual relationships.

13:55 Consent beyond “yes” or “no”: Making communication part of attraction.

17:45 Creating safe spaces for sexual self-discovery.

20:23 Building safety when sharing desires.

25:25 Challenging assumptions and resentment in intimacy.

31:16 Discovering turn-ons: Moving past stereotypes to emotional and psychological arousal.

34:48 The power of curiosity, flirting, and non-judgment.

39:47 How to expand erotic menus and blueprints.

41:01 Finding the win-win: Bridging and turn-taking in sexual negotiation.

46:20 Learning to sit with disappointment—acceptance and the reality of relationships.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Approach each intimate interaction with a beginner’s mind—don’t assume you or your partner will want the same things every time.
• Don’t treat consent as a one-time check-in; keep communication about desires and boundaries active, even in long-term relationships.
• Start small, verbally or non-verbally ask if your partner is open to each next step, and pause to receive their feedback before moving further.
• Incorporate asking for consent into your foreplay—use eye contact, playful language, or seduction so these conversations enhance intimacy rather than disrupt it.
• Talk about what types of consent feel best—does your partner prefer verbal requests or more intuitive, non-verbal cues? Establish ground rules together.
• When your partner voices a new desire, respond by celebrating their openness, rather than immediately agreeing or refusing—create space for exploration.
• Set aside time to talk (inside or outside the bedroom) about what really turns you and your partner on, including fantasies, feelings, or specific types of touch and energy.
• Accept that not every desire will be fulfilled in the relationship, and practice open discussion and acceptance around disappointment to deepen trust and connection.

Mentioned

Somatica Coach Certification (Somatica Institute link)

Somatica® Sex & Relationship Coach Certification (Somatica Institute link)

Relationship Reboot (Somatica Institute link) (online class)

Making Love Real (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Coming Together (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Confidence (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

My Secret Garden (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

ERP 211: How To Get Rid of Shame to Increase Pleasure In The Bedroom – an Interview with Ian Ferguson

ERP 473: How to Experience More Embodied Pleasure Sexually – An Interview with Susan Taylor

Connect with Danielle Harel, Ph.D and Celeste Hirschman, M.A

Websites: celesteanddanielle.com | somaticainstitute.com

Facebook: facebook.com/somaticainstitute | facebook.com/celesteanddanielle

YouTube: youtube.com/@SomaticaInstitute

Instagram: instagram.com/somatica_institute

TikTok: tiktok.com/@somatica.institute

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like it to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon, if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Celeste and Daniella, thank you for joining us.

Thank you. Thank you so much for having us.

We're very excited to be here.

Yeah, this is such a welcomed topic. As I know, many people don't always have explicit conversations about their sexual intimacy, and there's a lot of imagery and notions and various messages we get culturally and pick up along the way. So really, having guided, skillful, educated support is really supportive in this journey. So thank you.

What would you like people to know about how this became a focus for you, both how you started maybe even working together? I'm sure that could be many episodes. But what would you like people to know about you both here?

I think personally for me, I always had a lot of curiosity around sex, and I knew that I wanted to help people in this area. Because it was something I felt comfortable talking about, which I felt like a lot of people were kind of shy and ashamed. So I got lucky in the sense of being in a low-shame environment in my childhood, and it inspired me to think: Wow, there's so much fun and pleasure available here, but there's so many negative messages and so much that shuts people down. I want to be a warrior against that and help people find as much pleasure and joy in their lives as possible. So that's always been my inspiration for helping people in the sexual realm.

Thank you. Did you grow up in the States, just out of curiosity?

Yeah. I was born in San Francisco, hippie parents. I got the special San Francisco experience.

Got it, thank you. Danielle?

Yeah, so I actually always wanted to be a sex therapist or a sex coach. It wasn't available when I was growing up. It was like, who does that? Then when I moved to the US with my husband and my kid, and I was pregnant, many things led to this career for me. One was really, I was dabbling in childbirth education, and I really found that wow, no one talks about sex. Like, the baby comes in one way, no one talks about sex afterwards. I found that when I started talking with people about sexuality around that time in their lives, that they start to feel much more empowered and they start to feel much more like, that's my body, that's my sexuality. I get to be sexual even if I have children, or throughout this period of pregnancy. The other thing that really led me there was really when my husband and I went on our own journey of opening our relationship, and I was like: Wow, sex is amazing, no one tells you about that. Then I was like, I'm going to do my PhD in human sexuality. That's what I wanted to do.

We met when Danielle was in her PhD, we teamed up, we were taking a training together. While we are two of the most opposite people on the planet, we also have the exact same idea about how to best help people around sex and intimacy. So we teamed up after that and have been going strong for 20 years now.

Wow, what a history! Love that. I love that you both bring differences to the table as far as your perspectives and experiences and how that really compliments, but also this united real purpose and shared principle around what your mission is.

Thank you.

Thank you, definitely.

Danielle, what country are you from originally?

Originally, I was born in Russia. I was raised in Israel. But I'm here in the last 20 something years already, or 25. Wow, time flies.

Time flies, yes. I think that can be also really supportive to understanding different cultural influences, just having that vantage point of being in different countries and having some exposure there.

Wonderful. Well, where would you like to start? How do you view consensual conversations?

I think consent is a really hot topic and people have very strong opinions about it. We believe strongly that it's essential not just at the beginning of relationships or during sex, but in long-term relationships and in every area of the relationship. So the consent conversation is an ongoing conversation, and it's really helpful for people to think about it that way. I remember I was working with this one client, and he had a list of all the things that his wife had told him she didn't want him to do, and he keeps this list. I said, burn the list. Like, you haven't updated those files in how many years, you don't know what she wants now. Talk about things. He was just proving to himself that he was rejected all the time, and that's how he was holding it in his mind, as opposed to an open conversation that could continue. Lo and behold, as we deepened into the conversation between the two of them, there were many things that she had said no to in the past and that she was interested and curious about now, so those things do change over time.

It also brings me to compatibility in long-term relationship. Because people have this idea that we are the same. We started in one way, we had all our honeymoon phase, so we don't talk about sex. So sex is just supposed to happen. The truth is that that's the worst prescription for successful sexual relationships, because if people don't spend time talking about what turns them on or even have an idea of what turns them on. It keeps developing. I know for me, realizing what turns me on, it's an ongoing journey, and the layers keep going, and I can go through the layers and really find what it is and become very efficient. But if people don't even know where to start, there's not much to go from.

Then, helping people having this conversation with each other, not assuming there's only one way of having sex. That's what we see in the media all the time. There's only one way, usually passion and some romance dipped in, throwing people around. But the truth is that our desires are very complicated, and being able to talk about it can create a good foundation to also start to talk about consent. How do I want things done and what kind of consent I want to be offered, or what kind of consent conversations do we want to have with each other?

I get a sense of this beginner's mind, that when I am approaching the sexual space, I'm not coming with assumptions or predetermined ideas or this script of: this worked for us all these times, we're going to sign up to do this thing. When really, there's so much opportunity, and if one can be really curious, you're right, we can be different in any given moment. Also, just that there's so much that perhaps we haven't uncovered, if we look at even a long-term relationship, that there's still so much getting evolved and developing.

I love that, holding the beginner's mind and the curiosity. It creates so much more of an opportunity for a dynamic, ongoing, transforming sexual relationship. What we see so often in couples, especially in long-term relationship, is just this very habitual sex begins to take hold. Nobody's trying new things, nobody's asking, nobody's talking about it, and people get really bored. Then a lot of times, they just stop having sex altogether. So creating both a dynamic conversation and an open sense of curiosity when you go into your erotic experiences, really keeps it hot in the long-term.

Would you be willing to give us some examples around what a consensual or consent conversation is? Because, to your point, I think sometimes in this habituated state, we assume it's okay to give my partner a hug, just kind of go in. Maybe that seems benign or super neutral, but still, maybe someone doesn't want to be touched in that moment. So to be asking, or that perhaps if we're going to say yes to being sexual, that it means I want to have intercourse, or maybe I don't. Or maybe I want this, but I don't want that. That there's lots of things happening or could happen, but that we get to have voice along the way. Is that right?

Definitely. We have a practice that we call escalation with ongoing consent, and that's kind of like a sexy way to check with your partner, what are they up for? So you can look at them when you have a moment that you feel like you want to engage with them in some way. So then you pause and you say, like: Hmm, you look so beautiful today, Jessica, can I just kiss you? You pause, you don't immediately go for the action.

Because then you can say, and how about that? Then the other person has an opportunity to pause in every moment and say: Oh, I'm not ready for that, but I am ready for you kissing me or massaging me, or do something that I'm ready for. 

Also, I think people want different kinds of consent. Some people really want to be asked verbally, can I do this or can I do that? Other people don't want to be asked. So if I'm with a partner and I'm somebody who doesn't want to be asked, I need to say to them: Look, I promise you I will keep my boundaries, but I want you to escalate and do whatever feels good to you, and then I'll tell you if something isn't working. Then you need to ask, is that okay with you, does that work for you, that way of us doing consent? See if they need anything from that. Whereas other people might need to say, sometimes I freeze during sex, or I'm not exactly sure what I want, and it's really important that you ask me verbally. Especially if we're going to go towards any kind of penetration, or if you're going to touch my breasts, I would need you to say, and then I want you to actually wait for me to verbally respond. So we need different things in sex. I think that's one of the challenges about consent conversations in our modern society. It's just like this sort of all or nothing. Like, you have to ask for everything, or I don't want to have to ask for anything. But it's much more nuanced than that.

Absolutely. Does it relate to perhaps having conversations stations ahead of time, that perhaps sometimes when people are in the midst of it? I think both can be true, that if people are in the midst of this sexy, erotic exchange, to talk about some ground rules can feel less erotic, but also can also be really supportive that we have a voice, we have understanding. Tell me, how do you see that?

Yeah. I think any time that people are willing to talk about what turns them on and how they want it to go, I welcome that. Some people prefer to have a meta-conversation about what is it that turns us on? What do we like? What do we generally like? What are the feelings that we want to feel during sex? We call those core desires. What are the actions that I want to do during sex? But that doesn't also mean that that means every time, or exactly the same all around. So we want to be able to have those conversations outside of the bedroom, but also throughout the sexual experience. Because I don't think it's a great idea if someone's saying, but you said it when we had lunch that you want this. I'm like, but now I'm in a completely different place and I don't want it at all. I want people to have the ability to pause and look at every interaction as an opportunity to talk about what really turns them on in that moment and what they're ready for.

I think what Danielle was saying too is so important around making it sexy, making the conversation sexy.

But if you can look in somebody's eyes and say like, I would really love this, and also, I want to know what your boundaries are. Like, is that comfortable for you? But you don't pop out and be like, let's have a serious conversation now about it. It's like, let's stay in the energy with each other, let's stay in the erotic connection, and let's have that conversation where it's playful and teasing and building. The words are part of this seduction, and the hardest part. When I work with clients, we go touch first and then we go words. Because for most people, feeling authentic while they're talking about sex is like, sometimes people feel a little cheesy or goofy, and you have to practice those things. That's what Somatica is all about, the method that we created. It's about practicing in real-time with our clients so they can feel that authenticity when they come in to a neurotic connection, or even helping couples do it in the room with each other.

Oh my goodness, I can see how experiential that is. In that, it's asking one to really embody and be in a connection with what feels authentic, and also in a way of expressing. Not presuming, just being in the unknown around: I'm going to express and show visibility to the sexual erotic space that I'm in and how I want to invite or initiate, and also give room for someone to respond. I'm appreciating the nuances here. Because just a moment ago, Celeste, you were talking about, I don't always want to use the words, or have this discussion of, is this okay or is this not okay? There might be some meta or overarching themes that will maybe be more longstanding tendencies, like to be verbal or nonverbal. I don't know, I was going to ask about more of the one that's initiating, or dominant or submissive energies. Sometimes people want to take different roles, or sometimes they like a rule. So I can appreciate the nuances here, that to have an ability to relate real-time, and also to have an understanding that can continue to be updated or revised. But that there can be some foundation to work from maybe.

Even when you talk about it, like when you're talking about it right now in this moment, what I feel in your energy is you sensing into the vulnerability of that. It's so beautiful. Because I can tell you feel it when you're talking about it. That's what it's all about. It's very vulnerable to share these things, and I can tell you know something about that.

Well, and I appreciate that one of the things that you both are skilled in doing is helping people have access to more terrain that perhaps people feel unfamiliar with or might feel uncertain about. One of the things people tend to struggle with is the unknown, and there's a lot of messaging out there that perhaps is more media or fantasy. It's sometimes difficult to say yes and vulnerable to lean into the unknown.

Yeah. I feel like it's vulnerable to lean into the unknown, and it's vulnerable to lean into what really turns you on and share those desires and feelings. Because there's risk. Someone might be on the other side saying like: Ooh, who does that? So really prepping people around how vulnerable it is to share desires is so important, and what's the best way to respond to it, which is our opinion, it's knowing that you don't have to do what your partner asks, but you can celebrate their desires, and separating those two. If you tell me something that feels very vulnerable to you and something that really turns you on, for me, not to think: Oh, now I want to do it or not want to do it. But instead, to think about like: Wow, that's amazing, I feel so lucky that you shared it with me, and that's so beautiful. Before going into like, I don't want to do A, B, C, and D, really going into the enthusiasm of hearing someone kind of bearing their sexual soul and desires, and trusting you around that.

Yeah, I imagine this might relate to safe space. That if one can stay with the other, to just be in the place of wonder of like: Oh, I don't know that I knew that, and tell me more. Or internally, it might be like: Okay, this is new, I don't know, and I might be trying to say, what does this mean? Am I saying yes to something? But also just to stay in the moment and to stay with the other person, that can be expansive. Even for the one that's speaking about desire maybe for the first time, that hasn't been voiced in a relationship, to give it a little bit more room. I feel like it could be giving more life to the conversation or to the connection.

Yeah, that does create so much more safety when you know that when you share with your partner, that the first thing that we're going to do is celebrate you, and then we can negotiate later. It creates a lot of safety.

Even understanding that my notion of A, B, or C on first high-level may be different than what you're referring to.

Exactly, we can't immediately picture what the other person is asking us for. Sometimes we have to actually, in a very experiential way, teach our partners what turns us on. Because we might say, well, I want this, I want you to be more romantic. And the other person is like, I don't know what that is. What is your version of that? What does it look like? What's the flavor? What's the words? What's the touch? So really diving into the specifics of it and teaching each other on a much more experimental and experiential level.

I wonder, the thought that's coming up for me as you say that is, oftentimes in partnership, there could be a sense of responsibility that might show up, hearing their partner speak into a desire, and now feeling like I'm somehow asked to give this. I think there's a lot of range here. Would you be willing to speak to how you view this? Yeah,

Definitely. I think that's why it's so important to help people understand that in order to have really effective conversations about desires, they need to commit to potential boundaries. That means like, it doesn't mean that your partner is signed up to do everything that you want. Because otherwise, if someone feel like now you shared your desires with me and I need to do that, they wouldn't want to hear it. They will feel clenched inside and they'll feel like: Oh my God, I just don't want to do all those things, I just want to do maybe one or two things out of it. So creating foundation around how to have the conversation, and knowing that it is really about hearing and doesn't mean that it's a commitment to anything.

A lot of what we are doing is really helping people navigate those differences and help them find creative solutions to moments that people feel like: Oh, I need to do it exactly in that specific way that my partner said they wanted. But sometimes people don't know exactly what will lead them to that feeling that they want to have, and we are there to be this kind of detective, and also inspiration. And have ideas of, maybe that specific act that your partner doesn't want to do is not the only act that will make you feel this way, so maybe we can try something else.

That is so important. I love that. I feel that in other domains, somebody has an idea about something and then to be able to query, what would that help you feel? What would that allow you to feel? Maybe there are other options.

Yeah. I want to add, when we think about consent in relationships, so often we think about sex. But I actually think there's a lot to be done around consent when it comes to emotions as well. A lot of times, I see couples, and I know I've done it in the past, where I just bring up a very emotional, potentially triggering content without any permission from my partner at all. Just like: Oh, ah, I'm feeling this. Instead of saying: Hey, I'm wondering if you have the bandwidth right now to hear some feelings that I'm having, and if not, now, is there a time that we could connect on that? Because for the other person to actually have the moment firstly to feel like they're being asked and they don't have to do it right now if they don't want to, and also to help them get into the mindset that we're going to be having a more emotional conversation now. Let me find my empathetic place and my non-defensive place and my slowed down place and presence, so that I can actually have that conversation with the best parts of myself that are capable of it. So getting consent for emotional conversations, I think is so important in long-term relationships as well.

I agree. There's so much respect that I feel when we can enter into this, that there's not an obligation or you're not required. This gives space for both people to exist and have their experience, and also to be in this negotiation, as you're describing Danielle, that I think allows for things to be very dynamic. But that kind of responsibility or obligation or required doesn't tend to lead towards a lot of vitality in life.

They're like: Oh, they probably mean that. They say based on what they think that their partner wants, and they don't even take the time to really break it down and see what is my partner really asking for? Let's ask them, what is it that they really need?

Absolutely. One of the things I'm wondering as we're talking, is it a both and, really encouraging that one explore and give time and investment into their arousal and their desire, and that also, the and is how one approaches relationship with that and negotiates with another. So why I ask that question is, I think a lot of times when we talk about long-term monogamous relationships, let's just say the habituated state or the boredom or that other demands in life can be prioritized and people will deprioritize their sexual relationship or sexual energy and their own vitality. That this takes a level of giving it focus. I don't know, tell me if that is your experience.

Yeah. To me, it's really like, I don't have any kind of agenda for how people live their lives. So I want to know, with both people and the couple, is sex a priority for them? If it's not, and it's been deprioritized by both of them and they're both happy, they prefer gardening, garden. But if sex is really important to one or both of them, but they're missing each other in some way, I want to find that out. I want to see, do you want to prioritize it? Do you want to take the time? Do you want to fight against those social messages that say that sex is just supposed to happen, and actually do the work of having the conversation? Because it can be challenging. So it's very subtle, the work of finding out, what do people really want for themselves, and is there a difference? What if one person really wants prioritized sex and the other person is like, I don't really want that anymore? How do you handle that in a monogamous relationship? So those are all the more complex and nuanced conversations that need to be had. Then, maybe people want it, but they don't have the capacity yet, or they're not ready or willing to have those mor deep and challenging conversations. So you're just checking on all those things.

Yeah. Danielle, did you want to comment?

Yeah, I feel like long-term relationship has a lot of complexity to it, and sex is one of the complexities. I think people are many times not having conversation around parenting, or around whether they want to be parents or not, and what their parenting approach is. All of those require some sort of consent to have the conversation prioritization to see like, is this important for us? Really, allowing some curiosity and not expecting that things are actually going to be known already.

Yes, I hear the underscore of how people might enter into relationship, however it's structured, with certain assumptions that it just is supposed to happen. I mean, the early stages fueled by neurochemicals make it so easy, and so it's easy to fantasize that that is the epitome or the optimal place. But really, that's just the initial attraction and the lust.

Exactly. When you go on to trying to get help, people are like, try this position. It's like, no, that's not going to help anything, just throwing some positions or some sex toys in. You really have to get to what people's erotic psychology is, and what kind of touch and seduction and where all of that comes from, and how to have those even more deeply vulnerable and sexy conversations. 

To be like, I just want you to tell me how good I am, or to say that. You're like, but they're supposed to just tell you without you having to ask. It's like, not if they don't know that's what you need to hear.

Exactly, yes. This feels a bit of that individual, but also couple, that if we don't know or we haven't given a lot of inquiry to those early developmental learnings around sex, that if we're operating on it, it just happens to us. We're just like: Oh, if I stumble across it, then maybe ding, ding, ding. Versus like: Oh, I'm going to actually have inquiry here and there could be some learning. I remember interviewing somebody, and she had talked about being in a sexless marriage and then divorcing, and then her journey and awakening sexually is really giving time for her own exploration of her body around what felt arousing and pleasurable, that she just hadn't investigated that as much.

Yeah. I also feel that we don't learn culturally what are the ingredients of a turn-on. It's really not something that's available there. Again, as we said at the beginning, there's a structure that we see in movies. It happens spontaneously, we feel attraction, and that's all. We don't actually even see what happens after the first attraction because it's sex, and they sometimes don't show everything. But they show the beginning, the attraction, and the end.

I think one of the challenging things in this kind of conversation is that I see couples coming in, and it's like, so what turns you on? The other partner doesn't even know where to start. So really, it's not trivial. That thing about what turns you on is not a trivial question, and that's where many times we come in and we help them really break down all the ingredients of the turn-on: from the emotional turn-on, the psychological turn-on, what kind of words, touch, energy, and moves or scenes will create those turn-ons. Because people have no idea where to start. You know, how sometimes helpers send their couples to do date night. I was like, how is that going to help them? They have no idea how to fill the date night with content. So they go and eat, great, or they go watch a movie, but they don't know how to have the conversation. They really need to be helped in breaking down what really turns them on and what's on the menu.

It's not known. A lot of people do not know.

Yeah, and it's a step-by-step process to really understand that and dive in and see, what do I want to feel, and what makes me feel that way? Then also, even once you've figured all that out, you need to do more than just talk about it. You actually have to physically and verbally teach each other, which is a whole other level of potential triggers and vulnerabilities. We have a class about it that we teach, that we recorded online. That's also so much of the coaching work that we do, is those subtleties around like, how do you build a very hot, sexy sex life, and without any of the judgment and shame? Because some people are turned on by romance, which is highly celebrated in our culture. Some people want to be degraded, which is somehow thought of as there's something wrong with it. No, it can be one of the things that turns you on the most. So how do we embrace all of the different potential desires and then see like, what can we do to get each one of those met in a way that feels really consensual and connected?

Absolutely. I appreciated, I believe you've both spoken to it as an example that we might know what we don't like, but that can be difficult in partnership or in relationship to have that messaging around no, no, no. But not necessarily any guidance or helpful visible information around what does work or what does light me up. I'm getting the sense too of a bit of flirting, that there's this way in which it's respectful with the consent, the safety, and also the acceptance and the real permission and non-judgment allows for more to breathe into this. Am I hearing that right?

Yeah, I love the way you said it. Because we definitely flirt people into their desires.

100%, there's nothing like helping people. One of the things I really love in this space, doing this work in this space of sexuality, is because there's so much potential for healing, and there's so much potential to flirt people into what's really good for them. We really practice those because we really believe that sexiness and flirtation is a therapeutic modality.

Absolutely. As leading guiding professionals, your being able to model and show and live into, I'm sure, is inspiring, encouraging, and also gives that example.

Yeah, and we can share vulnerably too, about what we want. I think that helps people understand and give some idea, that's what they mean when they say what do you want to feel during sex, or what makes you feel that way? So if I say, for example, I want to feel special, and the thing that makes me feel special is if you were to look in my eyes and just gently kiss my lips and tell me that you feel so lucky to be with me. That would be something that would really hit the mark for me in that desire. Then people go, okay, now I get what you're talking about. Because you have to be very specific so that people understand how to start having these conversations.

Absolutely. Danielle, do you want to say anything?

Yes. I want to add, there are also very difficult turn-ons, and being able to really help people express it in a non-shaming, open and loving environment, and help their partner accept it or even see it is very powerful. Because that's not trivial, when you talk about challenging core desires or less acceptable core desires. Again, in our class, we definitely demonstrate these two conversations. The ones that are not so challenging, easy to talk about, and the ones more challenging and harder to talk about.

Absolutely. I imagine, again, that this space that you hold can really normalize or validate. I remember there was a book, it was so long ago, and I think it was focused on female-bodied identifying women and their fantasies, like a rape fantasy. It had nothing to do with what they actually wanted to experience, but just the fantasy. That tends to not be something that's discussed. Just making welcome and being able to hold space for that can allow some stability to just further understand and explore.

Yeah. In My Secret Garden, Nancy Friday did a big study on women's fantasies. She found all sorts of things, like fantasizing about having sex with animals, and fantasizing about rape. Again, that didn't mean that people were going out and doing bestiality. It was like, what does that make them feel? Like, overwhelmed, or not responsible, whatever it is. That's what those kinds of fantasies would bring in. That's what people are going for. So we see, what do you want to feel, and then what do you want to do with your partner that makes you feel that way?

Absolutely, that's one of the things I appreciate about what the two of you do. It seems as though you give people not only this space that's got so much therapeutic tenets to it, like you're describing, and also just the education or even just this exposure to: here's a version, or here's something, or here's this. I think in your book, Making Love Real, you have the movies. Do you want to talk about that?

Yeah, I'm just thinking. So in the book, Making Love Real, we have some examples of movies. Movies, again, they're ideas. They're not all the movies on the planet, people can have variations to the theme and movies. But we bring and talk about the main movies that people are interested in playing. It doesn't mean that they only want one movie. It might mean that they want to start maybe with romance, and then move into passion, and sometimes blending a little bit of dominance and submission. Some people really like spiritual sex that transcends their partner and done more in part of nature, or feeling like part of nature or part of a bigger experience than the coupledom that they're experiencing. So this is a wonderful way to see what's on the menu, and we just expand the menu right there. Like, what words will lead to that, what kind of touch, what kind of energy you want to bring when you are playing those movies? I think for couples, it can be really fun to try those different things and see what ticks. Maybe you learn something new about yourself that you didn't think before.

For sure.

When people come in and they say, I have no idea what I want, then it's like: Great, let's populate the menu.

We get to explore, wonderful. I don't know if you like the erotic blueprints. I interviewed, I think it was Ian, many, many, many years ago. But I learned about myself the energetic piece, that I actually like that non-touch, but the anticipation, or just that energy attentiveness that's sexual but not yet touched. That there's something very arousing for me, and I did not know that. It was so helpful. I didn't do their work, or I don't know much more than just the basics. But it was just helpful to have exposure to that.

Definitely. We talk about the spiritual movie, and we have many people that that's what's really turns them on, this feeling of being a part of the energy and not necessarily touching right away. Then, many times going to more like a trans state with the arousals and a partner-related connection. So it's really important to know those things about yourself and about your partner. Because if one of you is interested in more the spiritual movie and the other person is more passionate, you might need to slow it down. You might not want to be thrown all over the place and you might need to be cultivating erotic energy between you before you get into your arousal and ready.

To be thrown around. Because we could have a combination of things. It's not necessarily that we're just in this lane, but again, the complexity and the nuances. Well, I can just appreciate that I would be wanting to talk to you for hours and hours and hours. You said something really important that I imagine listeners would feel remiss if I didn't kind of query a bit, is how to negotiate when there appears to be differences and how to negotiate. You've given us some taste of that around, stay with it and just learn a little. It doesn't have to mean we do that one thing or don't do it, and we put a stop to the conversation. But I would love to hear a little more if you're willing to share.

Yeah, I think that there's two different ways that we help people around that. One of them is bridging. So seeing if we can find some way that both of them can have what they want in the same erotic experience. The other way is turn-taking. So maybe one night it's this and one night it's that, depending on what different people want. Within that, you need to see, so in this bridging experience, these are the things I'm willing to connect with you on and these ones not. Same with the turn-taking. But it's really important, as Danielle was saying, part of what we do is we're createrixes. We come up with different ways that people could bridge, that they might not be able to think of on their own. I have to say, Danielle is one of the best at this that I've ever seen, she's so good. I'm just like, how did you come up with this?

It really excites me to find those very unusual ways of finding like: Oh, that really turns you on, you don't know that that turns you on. But wait, we can make this work together. It really excites me. That's why I love doing my job. It really excites me to do that.

It's a huge gift, and really showing possibility to places where people have felt perhaps very stuck or feel as though they've run into a roadblock. I would say I'm projecting, but it seems really honoring, that again, you're valuing both people's desires or what they're wanting and really making room for that, and how do they fit together. Just staying with the question until something pops, that allows for there to be something shared.

I think what's so important in what you said just now is this.

It's like, you just love me for who I am, you love all of me. Yes, you can have your boundaries, but none of that has to be a rejection of me or a shaming of me. That's what creates the safety in my opinion. Not I'm willing to do anything for you, even if it's beyond my boundaries. No, that's not safe at all for anyone. But I accept you for exactly who you are, and I'm going to take care of myself in the face of it. Then we have a safe place to be in our attachment relationship and to build an eroticism that works for both of us.

Yeah. I almost get a sense that it's accept and even could celebrate. Like, I want that for you. I love you and I want that for you. I know these are my limits and boundaries. I'm not sure how that works yet, but I can still feel how this matters to you.

I had this lovely couple, and they were in their 70s when they came to see me. She didn't have orgasms before, and she learned how to have orgasms. But the most beautiful thing that happened was that she told me, you know what really turns me on? When my husband put his reading glasses doing sex and starts reading my favorite fantasy. I was like, that's a way to have sex. I want to broaden people's ideas of what can be different ways and options to help people stay engaged in the experience.

She probably got turned on every time she saw those reading glasses lying on the bed.

I love it. Well, do you want to say anything about disappointment? Because you're saying there might be some boundaries or even there's lots of possibility, but perhaps there is some ways in which we might confront disappointment. I know probably, we could do a whole episode on that. But what would you like to say about that?

I mean, disappointment is an essential part of long-term relationships, embrace it. There's no such thing as a perfect partner. There's no such thing as the one that's going to fulfill every one of our needs and our desires. If we can hold disappointment in the relationship without feeling guilty or upset that we're disappointing the other person. 

Instead of, when we argue about it, like, why do you need that, or you shouldn't want that.

Like that's an unsolvable thing.

Like, no, I'm not disappointing, I'll give you everything. It's like, wait, no, stop. So if we can create a space for disappointment and normalize it in relationship, I think it creates a lot more ease.

Yeah. When we wrote the book Making Love Real, we really sandwiched a whole chapter in the middle about disappointment. Because you can't get to the yummy stuff without learning how to deal with disappointment.

Is there any nugget you want to share for people listening?

The truth is that I hate disappointing, and I hate even more to be disappointed. It's true, I don't like it. But I'd rather know what's actually happening and process the disappointment, than push, push, push towards something that's not available there. I think, in my opinion, actually being an adult in relationship means learning to deal with disappointment.

Because if you don't, I see couples in these holding patterns where one of them is promising the other one that they'll change and they'll do the thing, and they can keep promising it for five years. The other person is waiting, hoping, getting disappointed all the time. Then finally, the one person says, because I've coached them to say it: Actually, sweetheart, I'm not going to be able to give that to you. Then the relief happens, then the acceptance happens, then the disappointment can be moved through, and we see what's on the other side of it, instead of just sitting there in this tension for ages. So being the adult is partly being able to say, I can't. I'm not going to be able to do that for you.

Yeah. To be in a place of real acceptance around it and having the ability to be with it, something else can emerge perhaps.

Often it does. It's the holding that actually really creates the problem.

Yes, agreed. I know you're mentioning monogamy and non-monogamy, and I know we're winding down here. I don't know how to ask anything. Just if you wanted to communicate what you mean there. I mean, I have a sense.

So I feel like sometimes, part of what we have to offer people is to give them some ideas of what else can be done if they experiencing disappointment. For some people, they decide that they want to stay with the disappointment and not do anything outside of the relationship around it. For other people, they say: Wait, we're not fully compatible, but we love each other and we want to stay together, and we want to see what it would feel like to have not our needs to be met in other ways. It's not an easy road, but monogamy is also not an easy road. So we put those options on the table, because we want people to have options. We respect people's choices. We don't tell them what's the right thing to do, never. I don't want people to live my life. I want them to live their best life. But we do put those options on the table.

Yeah, thank you. I appreciate that. Well, as we wind down here, how would you like to encourage people to connect more with what you both are teaching? You have an institute. What would you like to share here?

So we have an institute, Somatic Institute, for people who want to become coaches in this modality and really want to support others. That also means that they will go through their own transformation, because you can't go through the training without seeing what's working for you and what's not. So you go through it for yourself, and then you learn how to support others. Then we have classes that we recorded on Learn.Somatica.com. We want to offer a special discount to your listeners.

She's flirting with us. I'm just kidding. Sorry, please go ahead. You had a special offer.

I'm always flirting. I love that you noticed.

I'm like, I feel all like tingly inside. What's happening? I'm just kidding.

No, I love that. Oh my God, I love that you responded so well. I feel so delighted. We have a special class for couples.

Wait, I interrupted you, so I'll have them edit this. So tell us about the discount. Is this what you're about to say?

Don't edit it. It's so beautiful. We were both flirting, that's the juice! So we have a class that's called Relationship Reboot on Learn.Somatica.com. For your lovely special audience, we want to offer a special coupon that's called Empowered30, which gives them $30 off of this package. That's a lot of what we talked about, like how to have those conversations, how to find what really turns you on, how to talk about it if things are complicated, how to have more challenging conversations, and also different kinds of movies that they can explore and see what works for them.

Thank you, it's so important. Celeste, I want to hear from you too. I feel like it's so important to have trusted guides in this space, and I really appreciate all that you've curated together and giving people an opportunity to engage in a way that feels grounded and also growthful.

Yeah, I feel like Danielle said almost all of it. I guess I would just add that, in the classes, there are really good examples and discussions. So we don't just philosophize about it, we show how to have the conversations and how to find out what really turns you on. So it's very experiential and interpersonal, all of our video classes are, and we have dating classes and touch classes. So if you go to Learn.Somatica.com, you can see all the different classes, and then we have that special Relationship Reboot offer for your listeners.

That's super generous, thank you. You also have written two books. Do you want to say the names of those?

Three books. We have Coming Together, which is all about people's core desires, what they want to feel during sex. We have Making Love Real, which is for couples or people really interested in long-term relationship, and that's everything from emotional connection to erotic connection and how do you deal with that disappointment. Then our first book is called Confidence, and that's for men who want to be extraordinary lovers to women.

Beautiful. Well, I'll make sure to have the links on today's show notes. Is there anything else you want to comment on or mention before we wrap up here?

I just really appreciate talking to you. I love your energy, and I feel like you're very intuitive, so thank you so much for inviting us on the show.

I feel the same, you feel so easy and fun to talk to you. So thank you.

Oh, you're welcome. I can feel my interest in just what you both are bringing, and it's just so special and beautiful and helpful. So I look forward to connecting myself with you both more, and also just for people to access all that you are doing in the videos and books and classes. There are people that I know that are clinicians to get trained, so I imagine that will also be of interest. So thank you.

Fantastic. Thank you.

Thank you so much. It's been a pleasure.