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About this episode

Money isn’t just about numbers—it’s woven into the fabric of our emotions, relationships, and even sense of self-worth. Have you ever noticed how anxiety, stress, or even shame can surface when dealing with finances, both individually and in your most intimate partnerships? If conversations about money leave you feeling overwhelmed, you’re not alone. The underlying emotional stories and even traumas we carry about money can impact not only our bank accounts but also our ability to connect and thrive in relationships.

In this episode, you are invited to explore how our money stories are shaped by past experiences, emotional patterns, and even generational beliefs. The conversation opens the door to understanding money wounds, the somatic signals tied to financial stress, and ways to bring curiosity rather than judgment to our financial behaviors. Through practical exercises and compassionate dialogue, this episode provides actionable strategies to help you unravel your relationship with money, build greater awareness, and start healing both individually and with your partner. Whether you’re looking to reduce conflict, foster transparency, or simply feel more empowered and secure with your finances, this episode offers valuable insight for taking those first transformative steps.

Shannah Game is a financial expert, Certified Trauma of Money Specialist, and host of Everyone’s Talkin’ Money, a top money podcast with over 26 million downloads. With 20+ years of experience, she helps people transform their relationship with money to build wealth unapologetically. Her book, Unraveling Your Relationship with Money, explores money trauma and financial empowerment. Shannah’s work is bold, relatable, and designed to help you take control of your money and life.

Episode Highlights

06:59 How to begin exploring the emotional side of money.

12:33 The ‘relationship with money’ concept and its lifelong impact.

17:11 The power of ‘enough’ and the impact of social messaging on money perceptions.

21:10 Happiness, wealth, and the moving goalpost.

24:12 Why it’s not just about the math: The importance of money conversations.

26:46 Hidden money scripts and the real source of couples’ money arguments.

28:17 Attachment styles, money personalities, and navigating differences in relationships.

33:04 Processing personal money histories and the value of self-awareness.

36:05 Generational money trauma and the inheritance of financial fears.

39:01 Identifying money wounds and taking steps towards financial healing.

43:39 Envisioning your ‘money hero story’ and shifting into possibility.

45:00 Building healthy money dynamics in relationships: communication, curiosity, and practical tools.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Take a few mindful breaths to ground yourself before engaging in conversations or reflections about money.
• Ask yourself how you feel about money and dig deeper by repeatedly asking “why” to uncover underlying beliefs.
• Pay attention to physical responses (like tightness or sweaty palms) when thinking about or handling money to identify potential wounds or stressors.
• Approach your feelings and experiences with money with curiosity instead of judgment, shame, or blame.
• Set aside 10 minutes to write freely about your past financial mistakes, beliefs, or patterns, then step away and revisit it with fresh eyes.
• Create a safe space to share money stories with your partner, focusing on curiosity and understanding instead of criticism.
• Establish a routine (weekly or monthly) to check in with your partner about spending, goals, and any financial feelings, keeping the tone positive and collaborative.
• Write about your ideal relationship with money, including senses and feelings, to set intentions for the future and reframe your financial mindset.

Mentioned

Unraveling Your Relationship with Money (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Connect with Shannah Game

Websites: everyonestalkinmoney.com

YouTube: youtube.com/@shannahgame

Instagram: instagram.com/shannahgame

TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@shannahgame

Podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/everyones-talkin-money/id957163760

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

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LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like it to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon, if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Shannah, thank you for joining us.

Thanks so much for having me. I’m so, so excited to be here. Yes,

Yes, I am thrilled to have you. I love your approach and your style as you talk about money, as it relates to our relationship with money and the energy and the emotion and the dynamics. We’re going to be diving into this topic, particularly how it affects intimate relationship. But before we get started with that topic, would you like to share anything about you, for people who are just getting to know you, and how this became your work in the world?

Such a good question. I am a classically trained, certified financial planner, so became a ninja in all things money. But I also hold a certified trauma of money designation, which is something a little bit different than most people have heard of. Really, after doing this work with clients for 15-20 years, I know that change doesn’t come from me handing off a 50-page flashy financial plan that just doesn’t motivate people to get where they need to be. So I became deeply interested in this emotional aspect of money. I talk about this in my book a lot, that I believe about probably 90-95% of our money decisions come from this emotional place, which I know we’re going to dive into. 

So really, it took me years to lean into the fact that this was really my specialty, this is what I’m really good at, and really to accept the fact that I could do super complex money things, but I believe this is really the place of change. So that was really the foundation behind my book and behind this movement that I would love to create, especially with women and couples, to understand the impact that emotions and how we grew up and our stories play into everything. Because I really believe that money touches all aspects of our lives. So I think it’s important to have these conversations and talk about it from that perspective.

Absolutely. Well, thank you for sharing a little bit more about where you’re coming from. It sounds like this emerged for you. You were always interested in the financial piece and have all the expertise and training and skill around the numbers and the strategy, and also really recognizing helping people be able to be in a different place with their money, in the sense of who they’re wanting to be or how they’re wanting to operate. You can’t just bypass all the feelings or all the fear or traumas that exist related to money.

Really, it’s so true, and it’s so fascinating. Because we tend to think that money, and particularly getting to the place of achieving our goals, is strictly about the math. That it is this equation that we’re trying to work out. So many of us spend our time scratching our heads, like: Wait a minute, I’ve plugged the numbers in and I’m still not where I want to be. Or in the conversation we’re going to have today, I’m still having arguments with my partner, like, why is this not working? It’s really because of this emotional piece, and for a lot of people, there is an element of trauma. There are these wounds we’re going to talk about.

So I really want to just open up people’s comprehension to this idea that there might be something else to this than just plugging in the numbers. That there’s this other level there that can help me get further with my money, with my goals in my relationships and my career, or whatever it might be, and I really think just to help us all feel better. To not be so stressed out all the time about money and wake up at 2:00 AM and cold panic sweats. It’s just to be able to bring a little bit more peace into our lives.

Absolutely, thank you. I’m so excited about all the things we’re going to be talking about. For people who are listening and they’re just maybe cocking their head a little bit or scratching their head about emotion or the dynamics with money, who maybe haven’t necessarily thought about it in those terms, where do you start with just that basic question around emotions with money?

Yeah, it’s such a great question. I think the first place to start, it’s going to seem super easy, but it’s really asking yourself the question of how do I feel about money? Diving deep into that. So if my response is, well, I always feel stressed out. I want you to dig deeper. What is that about? What is that stressed feeling about? Where does that come from? Is it a belief system that maybe you’ve carried from childhood? Are you in an intense traumatic situation around money? Is there financial infidelity? Did you see your parents always argue about money? So my point is, I want you to just dig deep. Even if your answer is, I feel great about money. Fantastic. Figure out the why behind that. So I always say, ask yourself like five to seven whys, to get down to what the foundation is. Why do I really feel stressed or anxious or excited about money? Where does that come from and what is that about? That, I think, is the first place to start, because that’s going to open Pandora’s box to exploring more of these little bit more complex feelings and topics around money.

Absolutely. It sounds like there’s a big piece of just bringing a lot more awareness and consciousness to money. Because if we’ve framed money as this transactional tool, which it is in some regards, and also what we project on it, all the beliefs we have on it and what it represents, it’s a very strong representation of value, worthiness, and living a wealthy and holistic, on multiple dimensions, life. So it sounds like awareness is a big piece of this. Is that right?

Awareness is really, I think, the first stepping stone. Even in that question, how do you feel about money, I also want you to think about what am I feeling in my body? There’s an awareness piece sort of somatically. Do I get sweaty palms? Does my heart start to race? Do my shoulders get tight? Like, what is going on in my body, what sensations am I feeling? Because those are also clues that there is some sort of wound or blockage or trauma or just ickiness. Those words are too big. Just a stuck feeling around money. The awareness piece is just can we dig a little bit into that? Can we ask ourselves some questions from a place of curiosity, rather than judge or blame or shame, which we tend to do around money? When we can bring that level of curiosity, I think we allow ourselves to explore a little bit more without there necessarily having to be a right or wrong answer. It just is. So it’s a deeper exploration of ourselves. I think this lens to what you’re saying, the larger conversation about purpose and meaning and self-esteem and certainly mental health, all of those things are really, I believe, tied into this conversation around money and our wounds and what we carry with us.

Absolutely, so just this noticing. That is one thing I very much appreciate about the tone of what I was hearing in your book or experiencing, is just this real non-judgmental, open, accepting, real place. Just an invitation to get curious, and that that is opportunity for understanding and for growth. Talk about complexity, just the immensity of this. As you’re talking, I’m just aware, one of the other things, the title of your book is Unraveling your Relationship with Money, really looking at relationship with money, that that is a significant relationship in your life. Again, if we see it as this tool or currency, we’re not necessarily giving full credit to how it operates or how we engage with it.

Yeah. When I came up with this idea of relationship with money, for a lot of people, it was like, what? What are you talking about? What do you mean? So I started to describe it this way, the way I talk about it in the book is, it’s just as if you were in a relationship with another human being. There are things that you do or don’t do. We all want some TLC. We all want some nurturing. We certainly, hopefully, wouldn’t be in a relationship with someone if they talked bad on us, if they were constantly putting us down or judging us. So I think when you frame this idea of a relationship with money in that same way, and you think about, what am I telling myself about money, and ultimately much deeper than that, about myself? If I’m constantly saying: Well, I’m not good with money, I can’t be trusted with money, I always make mistakes. That will bleed into all areas that money influences, whether it’s relationships or career or mental health or friendships or family, all of those areas.

No kidding. Just to add, one of the things, and I wonder what you would say, for many, money also ties with belonging. When we look at a social kind of environment, how we’re wired up in this tribal connected way, that’s how we live as social animals. I think marketing plays on this, that we want to feel connected and belonging. So we get a lot of messages around what’s more desirable, often related to currency and money. Would you agree?

100%. I will tell you that the most frequently asked question of me or statement that I hear is something around, I’ll never have enough. 

There’s always something coming at us, like we need more, that we can’t possibly have enough. So it just creates this cyclical kind of feeling circle of always feeling behind, and that behind plays into our identity and how we feel in a ton of situations. That’s something that I love to push back on a little bit, when people say I’ll never have enough, or I feel like I don’t have enough. My second question is, well, what is enough, what does that look like? That’s always the head scratcher moment of like, well, I haven’t thought about that. My comeback is, if you don’t know what enough looks like—and I’m talking everything from what you want to do for fun, to where you want to live, to the legacy you want to leave in your life—then how are you ever going to know if you get there? We’re always going to feel behind.

I think that’s the piece of money that the marketing really plays into, because that sells. It sells products. It sells us emotionally going out shopping, buying things. A lot of times we do this from just a state of unconsciousness. We’re just doing it because that’s what we’ve been told to do, without having that awareness. Having that pause and thinking, well, what do I really want? What do I want to bring in my relationship or in my life? What do I want that to look like? Can I figure that out? Then just put some blinders up to all the rest of it, because it’s just noise.

It’s noise, and it also is real. It’s this combination, where we want to be connected, we want to be of this world, and there are certain things that are emphasized or highly valued. So that does exist. Also, do we get spun out? One of the things I’m hearing you is, if we’re constantly running this narrative of not enoughness, then that could get layered on any circumstance of money. That it’s just this perpetual, habitual state of not enoughness. It actually reminds me, many, many years ago, there was a documentary related to happiness, Positive Psychology. You remember they were talking, if you remember that. I think at that time, this was maybe 10-15 years, maybe even 20 now, I don’t know. I can try to find it and put it on the show notes. But it had to do with happiness, correlated with money. That people thought the more amount of money you had, the happier you would be. In fact, as long as your basic needs were met. You might be able to describe this better, but it was at the time, I think around $58,000. This was referring to Western culture, more of the US. Then from there, there was not a correlation. The happiness was unrelated to more money beyond that point. Would you add or clarify?

No, absolutely. I think there was a study done, I quote it in my book, I can’t remember the year. It was probably somewhere around 2016 or 2017. There was an updated study done, and they indexed that number up to $75,000. And what’s interesting, I think, is that some people might look at that and say: That’s a lot of money, of course I would be happy at that amount. Then other people will look at it and say, $75,000? I couldn’t exist on that amount of money. So I’m more focused on having people figure out what their happiness number is.

But it relates perhaps to the kind of basic needs being met, right?

Yeah, absolutely. Once you feel like you can pay your bills, you have a little extra money where maybe you can go do some fun things. Like, you’re not in that state of feeling like you have to cut things, or survival. But what’s really fascinating, what I have found with working with humans, is that I’ve worked with people who make a million plus dollars a year. For a lot of us, that kind of salary would seem amazing. But they still feel this level of pinch. Well, I’m here, but I could be here, and there would be more happiness or enjoyment if I reached that mark. So I feel like we always move the goalpost. We just kind of keep moving it, versus saying: Okay, yes, my needs are met, I have some extra money. Could this actually be the place of happiness? That takes this awareness piece and this pausing and asking yourself: Well, maybe I’m there now. Like, whoa, what would that feel like, if you were actually in that place right now?

Right. I’m getting a sense, it’s almost this fantasy of when. I’ll be happy when, and in this external fictitious time. That is largely related to this inner narrative or this inner state. It just feels like it does come back to that awareness piece, that if we’re not even connected with what we do have, or even just our behavior, that it doesn’t actually matter how much we have. If we’re continuing to operate in this way, it just will move with us. It’s that idea of wherever you are, there you are, or whatever that saying is.

Yeah, 100%. I mean, you hit it bang on. It’s so interesting with human nature, how this works. So I think what we’re talking about here proves the point that it isn’t just about math. Because if it was, we could easily solve this for everyone, and yet we’re all here. 

I’m the only one who perhaps goes out and buys something when I’m feeling stressed or whatever it might be. When really, we all share this. So my hope is that, starting these conversations will allow people to feel some freedom to explore some of these things, and certainly in relationships, where it really needs to be explored, to even just ask yourself questions to think about this from a different perspective.

Yes, and it feels like an empowered way of being. In that, if I’m unconscious to some of my tendencies, it kind of happens to me because I’m not really that aware of it. It’s like I’m participating in this way of existing, and yet I’m not really connected to it, because it’s not really very conscious. So I don’t really have as much ability to be an agency of change.

Yeah, it takes away that sense of control. When I start to work with someone and I show them just how simply we can do a couple of things and how quick they start to feel this sense of control, it’s just fascinating to see that shift. I’ll give you an example. I worked with a couple many years ago who used to live in Los Angeles, and they lived in a rent-controlled apartment, so their rent was very low compared to other people’s rent. They made what I would consider, at that time, a significant amount of money between the two of them. It was a couple hundred thousand dollars. They were trying to save to buy a house, and they had been trying for years and years, and they just couldn’t figure out. Like, why can’t we do this, what is wrong with us? So I came to meet with them and I talked about their desire to buy a house. I asked them, do you have a budget? They’re like, oh yeah. They handed me this wrinkled up piece of paper. I said, well, let me have your bank statements and I’ll look and see what’s going on.

Looking at their budget, I saw some really interesting things. I noticed that their eating out spending was very different than what they had on this piece of paper. So for them, there was a lot of insecurity around food. They grew up with a fair amount of food insecurity. So it was super important for them to be able to spend money, and treat their friends really, to dinners and lunches. So they thought they were spending about $300-400/month, when in actuality, they were spending, I would say about $3,000-4,000/month. When you hear the story, you’re like, that’s crazy! How did they not know that? But there’s an emotional connection for them. So they literally convinced themselves that that’s what they were spending. Once they had this kind of aha, they felt more in control of their money, and they felt more in control, more importantly, of this goal that they were trying to reach. So within a few months, they had enough money to be able to have a down payment for their house. But they had just been operating in this place of like, why is this not happening? So I think it just goes to show that there is this emotional almost kind of block that happens sometimes with our money. It’s so powerful, and sometimes it just takes a few little awareness moments, little tweaks, and things start to really change.

What a powerful story! I’m also aware that they were similar in their priorities around money, food, friends, and so they probably didn’t have a lot of conflict. But we’re going to talk about a little bit, that in relationship, this adds to the complexity that we have different relational experiences with money. Before we do that, I just want to ask you a couple of questions. I’m recognizing we could probably spend a series together on this topic, and I know you have a podcast and hence all the things you do. When I think about money and an individual, in psychology and the couple’s work, I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Emotionally Focused Therapy modality. But one of the things they reference is what is visible, or what is expressed or conscious on the outside, is not always what’s happening on the inside. So the vulnerable, the attachment needs, the core emotions, that those live sometimes beneath the field of awareness or are not visible. We’re not showing that vulnerability to our significant other.

I’m recognizing, this is probably true for money. That the way we live in the world or what might be visible, or our money persona, if that’s even a thing, might be very different than what we’re feeling on the inside. Because you’re talking about it’s very taboo, and we don’t always talk about it, and this might be really surprising when we do these several why’s to get down to the deeper layers.

I mean, 100%. You and I both know that money arguments with couples, they’re not really about the money. They’re about these wounds. They’re about these beliefs and the story and all of the other stuff that plays into this. So I think that’s important to recognize, that we all come with our own money script, or our own money personality, if you will. That is how we’re comfortable interacting with money. Whether it’s helping us or not, it’s still this level of comfortability. So when we bring a partner in that has a different script and identity, and they have a different level of comfort around money, that’s what creates these arguments and these kind of deep, like, I can’t believe you said this, or I can’t believe you spent that. But it actually isn’t about that. So I think that if couples are willing to go there and dig in a little bit, but always from this place of curiosity rather than shame and blame, I think it could expose a lot in the relationship, not just obviously the numbers and the financial goals you’re trying to reach.

Have you ever come across the attachment tendencies or styles, and layered that onto this relationship with money?

I have, and I’ve come up with my own money personalities, if you will. But they’re all basically the same. They all kind of fall down those lines of the different attachments. I think it’s important to recognize who you are, and then how does that come out in your relationship with money, and then how does that show up in your relationship with money with your partner? Because that can tell a lot. For instance, my husband grew up with a lot of insecurity and shuffled around from house to house growing up. So he has a real anxious attachment to money. So for example, I don’t know, if maybe a bill came up that I wasn’t expecting, or I forgot about something, or whatever it might be, his immediate response is just the complete fight or flight. It’s just right there, right below the surface. Where I’m a little bit different and I’m more kind of like, go big, go home, swing for the fences type person. I’m more of like, well, we could fix it, whatever it is, if something’s late or if it’s this or if it’s that. So they’re very different.

So I’ve had to learn how to communicate to him about certain things, but he’s also had to learn how to communicate with me about those moments when he does feel super anxious, and explore what is that about and where is that coming from? For him, there will never be enough number. Millions of dollars still would not quantify that space. So it’s really interesting with couples how this shows up, and then how we just act on it.

Yes. As you’re sharing about your husband, there might be a little bit of tenderness here. So if that’s more visible, you can be more compassionate to him and be supportive, and then also be seen around your experience. But if we approach, to your point, about blaming or criticizing someone’s way in an attempt to get their needs met, likely, as you know and we all know, that typically goes off track real quick.

Real quick. But we learn these patterns from childhood. So for me, a very real thing is, from my childhood, we always snuck packages in the house that we bought. Don’t show Dad. So I find that I still do that to this day, and I’m like, why do I do that? That’s so crazy, I’m a 40 something year old adult, I don’t need to be sneaking things in my house. But then that almost creates this level of distrust with my partner, because I’m not just being like: Yeah, I went out and bought this. We have in our relationship, what I call a don’t ask don’t tell spending limit. So it’s an amount of money that we can spend without having to check in with the other person.

Anything over that, we need to have a quick conversation. So when I do things like this that are patterns that come from childhood, they rock the boat a little bit. Versus me just saying, this is my money personality. I trust the rules and boundaries that we’ve set in our relationship, and I trust that you have those as well, and operate from a place of trust, rather than one where we’re always side-eyeing the other person.

Yeah, I’m thinking we have coping strategies. Then the other thing I’m thinking is that, if we’re a little unconscious, and I’ll just raise my hand, as much as work as I continue to do, I feel like there’s many, many layers. Even when I was reading your book, I’m happy to share, I’m like, I think I need to spend a little more time with this, just to kind of further. I’ve come across some of the exercises, but I just feel like this could be really helpful. But that if we’re not fully in connection with our relationship with money, relationship with another could be confronting. They’re watching you, they’re visible. It’s kind of on display.

They’re the mirror, so they’re mirroring back to you.

And you’re like, I don’t want to deal with that.

Then it’s like: Whoa, that’s not true, I don’t do that. But we do. So there’s a lot you can learn from that.

For sure. So I don’t typically share things unless I’ve had some process with it. So I’m not really processed yet, but I’m willing to share anyway. So I grew up in an environment where I got a lot of influence around, one might even say the law of manifestation or the positive thinking, those type of things. So I believe in having a vision. I believe in having purpose and being in service of that. I see it work. Then I also believe it can show up as a bit of a coping for me, that it’s a way of avoiding, that I just live in a fantasy of like: Oh, it’s all good, or I’m in connection with my money. But it’s not as on point in the sense of like, I’m real in this secure, healthy way, and I know exactly. It’s just like, I intuitively know, or I kind of know. I’m looking and I’m budgeting, and I do my accounting every month, so it’s not like I don’t know. But it’s different.

There was something you were asking in the book about descriptors or how you feel, and I was thinking about this attachment style question. I was like, I think I’m maybe more anxious than I think I am, because maybe I’m afraid it’s not going to stay. So I have this fantasy that it’s there, and it just is this thing that’ll show up or is present. But it’s not something that I really fully trust. Maybe I am describing it wrong because I haven’t fully processed it. But I just was like: Ooh, note to self, come back to this, because this seems important. That probably, if I am really diving into the deeper layers, I will recognize there probably is some level of anxious feelings around just that consistency, that secure and stable relationship with money.

I think that most of us don’t know what that looks like. 

But what I’m deeply interested in is like, I have a little bit of a fantasy myself about what if we could figure that out for ourselves, and what if we could figure that out in relationships, and how might that dramatically change things if we could. I think it would have big massive ripple effects. But it’s not easy, because we weren’t taught it anywhere. There are a lot of examples to point to, usually not in our lives, of people who feel really secure around money and whose vocabulary is that. It’s usually like, I went out to dinner and I spent too much, or I’m not making enough. There’s usually a lack statement no matter where we are.

Absolutely. If people are in entrepreneurial ventures, or there’s just bigger goals, like buying a house, those type of things. This is so important, and hence the work you do. I can just feel how valuable to be able to be aligned in integrity and have that healthy, secure relationship. How empowering, no matter what level one is.

It’s very fulfilling. Like I said, it’s usually very minute changes that create this big transformation for people. It does start with giving people space to have this awareness, and to create these moments of pause to think about things intentionally rather than automatically. It really sometimes feels like you’re giving people a permission slip to change this relationship and to do it differently. For me, I just know how impactful that will be for their entirety of their life, and hopefully, how that ripples through their family or if they’re raising kids, to be able to change that dynamic.

Yes. Because one of the things you also mentioned, and you shared a story about your grandmother, that there can even be this intergenerational, maybe even through epigenetics. Like, the way we experience stress or trauma is passed down in our genetic material, and money likely is a part of that. It’s something wild to think about.

It is. But if you think about all the other things that are passed down, why wouldn’t this idea of relationship with money be a component of it? I think, especially for women, because if you look at our history around money, it really wasn’t that long ago that we were able to get credit cards in our own names and open bank accounts. So if we think about great, great, and great, great, great grandmothers of ours, what they experienced and lived through around money is such a different story than ours. So those have deep trauma roots, and those beliefs and stories just have been passed down generation to generation. So sometimes things that feel scary to me around money, I’m like, why is this happening? This isn’t true. I don’t have any proof of this. Yet, it feels like such a real experience for me. So that’s really when I look to like past generations. Like, well, what did my grandma go through? Well, she lived through the Great Depression, there was obviously a lot of trauma around that. Then I can see how that rippled through my dad and has shown up with me. 

Totally. So I’m feeling that for people listening, I’m wondering if we can talk a little bit more about money wounds. We’ve talked already about it, but I don’t know if you want to just briefly describe it. Then, is there anything that you would offer? I know you do a lot of exercise and practical tips around how someone can start to begin to heal or work with some of these, and maybe we’re already talking about it. But then also, how to approach relationship? Maybe we could just focus on one of these, because I know it’s a lot to accomplish in such a short amount of time. But where would you like to go?

Well, money wounds, I think we’ve covered a lot of it. It’s really these emotional patterns and beliefs. So sometimes that might feel like a big word. So it’s really, again, these sticky places, these places where we start to feel a little anxious or a little nervous or there’s some sort of sensation happening. I mean, it could be as simple as when you look at your bank account app. It could be when you’re around somebody, so it could be relational. There are lots of different ways where we can have clues like, there’s some sort of wound here, and what is that about?

One exercise that I love is called financial forgiveness. So you can do financial forgiveness with a partner, you can do it by yourself. It’s really a very simple exercise. Set a timer for 10 minutes, get out a blank sheet of paper, and I want you to dump everything out of your brain—mistakes, things you wish you would’ve done, wounds, trauma. Anything that comes to mind, I want you to just get out on that piece of paper without judging yourself. Then I want you to step away for 24 hours, come back with a fresh brain, read it over. If you’re doing this with a partner, if you’re brave enough, I encourage you share some of the things on that piece of paper, and set the kind of tone that we’re storytelling. Like, we’re not judging, we’re not diving deeper. We’re just storytelling here. Then once you’re done, the last piece of this is, we’ve got to get rid of it. So we’ve got to shred it, burn it, throw it away, tear it up, whatever is your mode of choice. Of course that doesn’t erase these things. But it starts to tell your brain and your body: Hey, we can do this differently, we don’t have to carry this going forward.

Another exercise, I will just say quickly, I talk a lot about money story, which is how you were raised. These beliefs, sort of your identity around money up till this point. But what’s important to do going forward, and this works really well in relationships, is to write what I call your money hero story. So this is the version of you going forward. What does that look like? Because that hasn’t happened yet. So you have a lot of say so and control over what that is. So write this story, again, without limiting yourself. Don’t put money in as the blockade. We’re trying to remove that. So what is it that you really want to do? Where do you want to live? What do you want to do for fun? What do the next 5-10 years of your life look like? All of those things. Share that with your partner. This is a really important piece of setting the tone and the foundation of where are we going with this money stuff, and ultimately, with our life and our identity and the purpose and all of those things. The money hero story, I think, starts to root you in possibility. Versus, keeping you in this place of lack or scarcity or whatever it might be.

Absolutely. I’m sure people are familiar with visioning for what they would love as far as maybe not, but I feel like I hear that referred to a little bit more. But it sounds like there’s even an additional piece around what you would like to experience in your relationship with money.

Yes. I encourage you, bring in the five senses. Think about smelling and tasting and hearing. Use your senses to evoke this vision of what you want your relationship with money to be like, because then you have more oomph to really root into, and also to help you recognize when you’re in that place. For me, now I’ve trained myself that in moments, I’m like, this moment I feel very wealthy. Like, in this moment, the birds are chirping, it’s a beautiful day. I’m hanging out with my dog and my husband. I’m having fun. This is a wealthy moment regardless of the amount of money in my bank account. The more that I train myself to think that way, the easier it is for me to get rid of some of those negative sensations around money.

Absolutely. For people who are learning or maybe don’t have a lot of models for what a secure relationship with money looks or feels like, do you want to give any examples?

Wow, that’s a broad question, because it is super individual. But I would say, look for those moments when you feel really present, when you feel like: Okay, in this moment, I have everything I need. Use those moments as the foundation to start piecing together this calm foundation, having enough place around money. But it starts, again, with allowing yourself to have awareness, and to create that tiny bit of pause and go: Wait a minute, in this moment, I feel good. Everything is taken care of. So I can start to disprove a lot of those lies that will just continually hammer us about money.

Yeah, for sure. I totally agree that it will look different for every person. I wonder, thematically, if it’s not in some ways the opposite or counter to some of the fears or worries. That money and I work together, or I trust money, I like money. It sounds so silly. But it’s a sense of, I like spending time with my money, or I like feeling supported by money, and I can do good with money, or we can do good things together. There’s this sense of how the money and the relationship takes this positive, supportive, secure form.

And what’s brilliant about that is, it may feel like a silly statement to make. But that silly statement then is going to influence the actions that you start to take around money. So you might start to be a little bit more brave, like maybe you start investing, or maybe you start having these conversations, or whatever it might be. So those are really the springboard to the action practical piece to creating the change.

Yeah, it feels like a scaffolding to, like you said, of what’s possible. But building some visual or building a felt experience around what that can be. Whether or not it’ll be exactly that, but that it gives some vision to it perhaps.

Absolutely, yes.

I love it, and that there could be just this joyful relationship of, look at you grow!

Yeah. I mean, it sounds silly. But imagine, even just think about for a moment, what that would feel like and how that would change things, or how that would change your relationship with someone else. I don’t know, it’s something to ponder.

For sure. Well, I know we didn’t talk as much about relationship. Is there anything you want to offer for people that are negotiating challenges with money, where to start? I know you mentioned the forgiveness that that could be done in partnership.

Yeah. I think, if you’re willing, set some ground rules. Tell your partner: Hey, I want to have a conversation, but this is going to be a different type of money conversation. Let’s share stories and let’s ask questions from a real curious place. Maybe it’s five minutes. Maybe it’s a short period of time. But see if we can allow the shame and blame to escape during this time period. Let’s just get to know each other from the perspective of: Oh, how did you grow up, what beliefs did you have, how do you feel about money? Even though you might know some of these things about your partner, I guarantee, when you allow them space to explore this themselves, they’re going to discover new things. Then that is just information you can use of, now how do we play to our strengths? Because our arguments are pulling us further away from those. So how do we figure out our personalities around money and decide what is each person really good at, and where are some of our shortfalls? How can we go in true partnership here?

One of the things I love to suggest is a money date. This could be done weekly or monthly, it’s up to you. Set a short time period, go somewhere fun that you really enjoy and ask yourself, how is our spending going? Are there any changes we need to make? And what are our goals? Are we on progress? Are we not? And the last question, the fourth one is, are there any feelings that we need to talk through Hmm. And contain it to that time in that space. Right. But it sets the tone of, okay, we can do this, we can talk about money, we can even have hard conversations around money and they don’t have to lead to an argument or they don’t have to lead to one of us feeling, you know, like a terrible, horrible person.

That’s where we can, in that curious stance, have a deeper understanding of both self and other, and then we can ally more and we can work together. Your book will be a great tool. You have so many exercises. Tell us, again, the name of your book.

It’s called Unraveling Your Relationship with Money. You can buy the book literally everywhere books are sold.

Excellent. Is there anything else you want to direct people towards about what you’re up to and what you offer?

I would just head to my website, EveryonesTalkingMoney.com. I have a lot of great freebies there, and there’ll be lots of new fun exciting things coming in the next couple of months. So be sure to just hop on my email list and you’ll be the first to know.

Excellent. Wonderful. Well, I will make sure to put the link to your book as well as your website on today’s show notes. Thank you so much for all that you offer. You do have a podcast. Do you want to mention that?

Thank you. My podcast is called Everyone’s Talking Money, and I have probably over 1300 episodes, so there’s something for everyone.

Wow, I love it! That’s excellent. Well, lots of material. Thank you for what you do, and thank you for showing up with us today here.

Thank you for having me.