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About this episode

Words have power. They can heal, but they can also harm when we wield them without fully understanding their meaning. In today’s world, the language of therapy is everywhere, filtering from clinicians’ offices into viral social media posts, heated arguments, and everyday conversations. But with this widespread use comes a hidden problem. When words like “narcissist,” “gaslighting,” or “toxic” are misused or weaponized in our relationships, they not only muddy honest communication—they erode trust, block growth, and can even do real damage to our connections with others.

In this episode, listeners are invited to take a nuanced look at how “therapy speak” has crept into our relationship vocabulary and why this isn’t always a good thing. Through real-world examples and professional insight, you’ll learn where the line lies between helpful self-expression and language that shuts down vulnerability, repair, and intimacy. By unpacking the ways therapeutic labels can become conversational weapons, this discussion offers practical guidance to help you communicate more consciously, challenge your own assumptions, and foster deeper, more authentic connection—with yourself and with the people you care about most.

Isabelle Morley, PsyD, is a clinical psychologist and an EFT-certified couples therapist (emotionally focused therapy). She is the author of They’re Not Gaslighting You, and a contributing author to Psychology Today in her blog Love Them or Leave Them. In philanthropic work, Dr. Morley is a founding board member of The Unscripted Cast Advocacy Network (UCAN) Foundation. She has a private practice providing couples therapy and coaching in the Boston area.

Episode Highlights

06:37 How social media fuels therapy speak and misuse of clinical terms.

09:08 The comfort of labels and the human drive for clear answers.

10:54 How diagnosing others and misuse of DSM terms can create unnecessary confusion, reinforce stereotypes, and affect our relationships and mental health conversations.

18:53 Differentiating between abusive and unskilled behavior in relationships.

37:17 Signals that invite self-reflection.

42:00 Approaching sensitive topics with partners and setting boundaries.

46:42 What trauma bonding truly is, and why understanding its meaning matters.

49:02 How the widespread and casual use of therapy speak can dilute and distort the original meaning of these terms.

51:43 Preserving the integrity of clinical terms and the power of conscientious communication.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• When you feel compelled to use a therapy term or diagnosis in a relationship, take a step back and reflect on the underlying experience or feeling prompting you to reach for that language.
• Instead of using clinical terms as conversation stoppers, invite open discussion by sharing your feelings and experiences without assigning definitive labels to your partner.
• Ask your partner for their point of view and clarify meanings when using terms like “toxic” or “narcissistic” to ensure both of you are on the same page.
• If you’re troubled by a partner’s behaviors or suspect a serious issue, seek professional help from a specialized therapist rather than relying on social media or self-diagnosis.
• Examine your reactions and consider any personal history, sensitivities, or triggers that may be amplifying your experience in the relationship.
• When raising concerns, discuss patterns of behavior and their impact rather than applying diagnostic terms, which can shut down meaningful dialogue.
• Be mindful of the power and potential misuse of therapy speak; reserve diagnostic terms for situations where they’re accurate and warranted.
• Remember, personal work in relationships is a continual process for both partners—stay curious about yourself and your relational patterns, not just your partner’s.

Mentioned

They’re Not Gaslighting You: Ditch the Therapy Speak and Stop Hunting for Red Flags in Every Relationship (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

The Pocket Guide to the Polyvagal Theory: The Transformative Power of Feeling Safe (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

ERP 410: What Are The Signs Of Emotional Immaturity In Relationship?

ERP 411: What Are The Signs Of Emotional Immaturity In Relationship? Part Two

ERP 413: How Does Emotional Immaturity Develop & The Difference Between Emotional Immaturity And Emotional Abuse? Part Three

ERP 416: What To Consider If You Are In a Relationship With An Emotionally Immature Person — Part Four

ERP 418: How To Build More Emotional Maturity In Relationship — Part Five

ERP 261: How To Strengthen Your Relationship From A Polyvagal Perspective – An Interview with Dr. Stephen Porges

Connect with Dr. Isabelle Morley

Websites: drisabellemorley.com

Instagram: instagram.com/drisabellemorley

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/isabelle-morley-psyd-579a4746

Podcast: romcomrescue.com

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

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Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like it to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon, if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Dr. Isabelle, thank you for joining us.

Oh, thank you so much for having me. I am so excited to speak with you today.

Likewise, I think this is an important topic. I don’t hear many people addressing and just supporting people, guiding people to have a greater awareness around terms that we use. I’m so curious, I know you have so many things to say. But how they can turn the corner and start to be weaponizing, specifically terms that might be utilized in therapy or clinical settings and other settings that have been adopted and perhaps weaponized. So where would you like to start for people who are just getting to know you?

Well, can I start by saying that the book begins, as you know, as I disclose, that I have nothing but empathy for people who have found themselves in the position of taking a therapy term or a diagnosis, and really clinging to it and/or misusing it and inaccurately diagnosing people with it. So I come in not from a place of judgment or harshness, but from a place of: I have been there, and I absolutely understand the impulse to do it. That, I think, is a real reason why we all have to take a look at this ever-present issue, because we are all vulnerable to wanting to take these terms and do something maladaptive with them.

Yes. I’m giggling because that’s a strong term, to say it’s maladaptive. I also hear you’re really underscoring that I’m coming from a very compassionate, empathetic stance, and this is human tendency. If we have language that articulates or lands with us in a certain way, that we then will want to use that as a descriptor if we’re protesting certain behavior in an attempt to get seen. But if we’re attacking someone through this language, that can get us into very dangerous territory. So before we get started around just diving in here, how did this become of interest for you?

I think that most therapists listening to this will agree that individuals have come in for therapy and have used these terms, have said: I think this person is a narcissist, or I think this was a boundary violation. That has been, I think, just part of the work, and we’ve introduced terms as well. So that has been just a thing that I’ve noticed increasing over the years with social media and TikTok. Especially on Instagram, I’ve seen a lot more of it. This book became an idea in my mind when I had couples coming in and diagnosing each other in session, in front of me, or sending me emails before a first session saying: Just want you to know that I’ve realized my partner is a sociopath and that is the root of our problems, and that’s what we should be working on. Only to meet the person and discover, they are not a narcissist, they are not a sociopath, and that this term has been really misunderstood and misused, and is now a huge barrier to these people’s work and their progress. Realizing how hard it is to talk people down from terms they’ve concluded are accurate. Then as soon as I noticed it, it’s sort of like when you realize you want to buy a certain type of car and you see them on the road everywhere. Suddenly, it was like the blinders were off, and I realized we’re all doing this all the time, way more than we realize.

Yes, and pervasive. So you’re just noticing how common and frequent this is, and how it’s hindering us more than it’s helping us. Really trying to offer some guidance here, and I’m grateful for that. I will say, in the couples’ space, I don’t think it’s new. Let me just even back up for context. As you mentioned, social media, I do think people are learning, there’s a landscape to intimacy, and they’re trying to educate, be more informed, be more intentional. I am so, so grateful that there’s more awareness around what can get activated relationally, and all the things and all the people that are helping with that. I do also believe that it is so refreshing, humanly, to just feel like there’s an answer, and that I can rest in somebody’s clear: This is what it is, and this is what you need to do. People follow those voices for a reason, because it’s like: Ooh, I can just lean into that, and that’s the answer. We want that discernment and that specificity. You’re nodding, tell me what you’re thinking.

Oh yes, all of this resonates on a personal level. I think for most people, it is so reassuring to know this problem has a name, it has a treatment course that we can follow. It feels even better if it’s a problem somebody else has to solve, and we didn’t do anything wrong and we don’t have to change. But the other person has a clinical level issue that they can address through therapy and meds, and then they’ll be a better person to be with, and we won’t get hurt again. Like, who wouldn’t want that to be the answer? That’s a wonderful answer for us. The reality that people—even the most healed, healthy people—will still hurt us, will still get vice with us, and that we don’t get to skip that or avoid that, sucks. It’s very painful. It’s bad news.

It does suck. It’s one of the more difficult things we do, is to be vulnerable and to be exposed, knowing that we can be disappointed or hurt or be at odds or have competing needs, and not knowing how to negotiate that. So I don’t want to skip over something you also said, just to go back a moment. That in a therapeutic setting, that if a therapist is having to debate or talk someone out of their conclusion or how they’ve diagnosed their significant other, that can be difficult. Because part of the things that we do in a therapeutic setting is build rapport and have a good working relationship. If somebody is convinced, they might just shop around. Not that they’re going to leave, but that they might be pretty wedded to that conclusion, and that can interfere greatly.

Yes. I have encountered that, where people, because I have not agreed with their diagnostic conclusions, have not wanted to work with me. Because they were basically coming in for me to fix their partner, and when I don’t see evidence of what they’re saying, it’s really hard to move forward. Like you said, it’s hard to build rapport when there is this huge barrier between the two of you. Then, I can just see how it’s going to be hard for them to actually do the work that they need to do to be happy, to be close, to be together. Because they have this inaccurate label standing between them.

With a lot of these terms, another thing that can happen is, once it’s been decided, anyone who challenges it could be also part of the problem, could also be gaslighting. You could also be a narcissist. It can sort of feed this protectiveness over the terms, and a resistance that is very hard to then peel apart and get to the bottom of what’s actually going on, and the feelings beneath what the terms are shielding them from.

Then, just adding to what you’re saying, for the person that’s being labeled or misdiagnosed by their partner, they may have confusion and maybe in this bind of: I want to validate my partner’s experience, but I can’t join that narrative. Or they start to doubt or internalize that it doesn’t fully match. This can get kind of muddy.

It does. The extreme example of this that I talk about is that, people who tend to be abusive are very good at weaponizing these terms and labeling their partner, the survivor, as the person who’s engaging in all of these abusive behaviors or has these severe disorders that are causing problems. The survivor is usually disempowered, isolated, can’t trust themselves. So they believe: Well, it must be because I’m bipolar and I’m causing all the problems in my relationship. They have no choice but to go along with that narrative and assume that they’re the whole problem. But as you know, in all healthy, good relationships, everybody’s the problem. Both people are the problem, both people are the solution, and it shouldn’t be so one-sided. These terms tend to make it a one-directional blame, that you’re the problem.

Yes. As far as I understand, you have a lot of EFT training, the Emotionally Focused Therapy. I think from that model, what I understand in my own training with the work is that it’s really the dynamic. It’s how people and their tendencies that get into this place of misunderstanding and disconnection and that disconnect cycle, that’s really the real concern. Then, just to your point, the huge obstacle to being able to help really people do this work if they’re so wedded to these labels or diagnoses.

Yes, and you can certainly understand how people arrive at them. Like you said, there’s this fine line of increased access to this information, which is overall a really good thing. People being able to understand themselves, to arrive at accurate diagnoses for themselves and others. There’s something so empowering about knowledge, and I wouldn’t want to take that away from anyone. However, it can cross this line into being too wed to terms, unwilling to reconsider them or to consider them with an expert’s help. Not just TikTok’s help, but a therapist weighing in on what might be going on.

Yeah. I don’t know if you experienced this, but years ago, I was finding people, and still now, but less so for some reason. Might just be that I’m so much more focused on relationship. But when I was doing the brick and mortar practice, people would be coming in and self-diagnosing and really concluding their own constellation of things. I remember saying to people, so while you might resonate with some of these aspects or traits, if we just back up, and I think this is something you help people recognize. The Diagnostical Statistical Manual, the DSM and the different versions, are really designed for clinicians to have a language to speak to one another. I mean, when we do research and we have treatment protocols, that can help guide treatment. But it’s not so pure. You could viably go to five different clinicians and get a slightly different assessment, and even that. This is looking at the range. Every person has flavors of something, so we can fall on the spectrum of anxious or depressed, or to these terms, narcissistic. We might all fall into some flavor of something, but that doesn’t mean that we reach this clinical threshold that distinguishes when it’s significant and debilitating. Do you want to speak to this? Because I know you do a great job of describing this.

Yes. I mean, the human experience is on a spectrum, it’s so hard to get down. Some medical diagnoses have this clear-cut point where we recognize, like a broken bone is a broken bone. An x-ray, very clear, you know what to do. Anxiety, there are so many different types, it can present very differently. We have all been anxious in our lives. Anyone who has to do a presentation knows what it feels like to be anxious. But that doesn’t mean that you have generalized anxiety disorder. So I think that because we can all resonate with pieces of these disorders, it’s easy to then see ourselves in all of them, or to see other people in all of them, and assume it means that they meet the actual criteria, even though they often don’t.

But to the bigger point, I think it’s so important to remember these weren’t supposed to be identities. These were supposed to explain really aberrant experiences, and then to help clinicians understand them, and help clinicians to help clients navigate their way through them and reduce symptoms and increase functioning. They weren’t meant to become so permanent. I think sometimes these diagnoses feel really permanent for people, and in a way that can block their growth. Because they think, well, this is just the way I am. They read the criteria and they think this is just going to be my experience in life. We’re just more complicated than that. Every individual has their own presentation and experience, even when they do meet the criteria for a disorder.

Okay. So is this a good time to talk about, for people listening, how they might be able to discern between what might be bad or unskilled or acting poorly in reactivity, versus real pathological issues. Do you want to help people have some guideposts here?

I will do my very best with it, which I tried to in the book. But to be honest, it can be hard to tell. This is why, because there’s so much gray area, there’s a lot of room to conclude one of these disorders or labels. Because abusive relationships, the most extreme of bad behavior, are very difficult to see when you’re in them. Even hard for people to observe accurately, because there is so much manipulation happening, typically. Especially with emotional abuse, it can be very hard to see what’s happening. Abusive relationships go through a similar cycle to healthy ones, which is, in healthy relationships, there’s always harmony, rupture, repair. But there isn’t this need, and this is the important part. In healthy relationships, no one is looking to gain power and control over the other person. They’re not trying to isolate them, to take away their reality, to control their decisions. They’re trying to grow and strengthen each other and the relationship in a wonderful, lovely way, while conflict still happens, and while bad behavior still happens. So it’s really the power and control aspect that differentiates bad behavior from abusive behavior. But like I said, it’s murky territory.

Oh my goodness. I did a series on emotional immaturity and how that might overlay with or cross into territory of emotional abuse, and that was one of the things I remember mentioning. But I also was like, there are people who have had trauma in their background or aren’t fully conscious of their protective reactive tendencies and hurt. Like the kind of 12-step, hurt people hurt other people. So while the intent of seeking power over or to manipulate isn’t conscious, it could still be there. That’s complicated.

It is. I think a good diagnosis to point to for this is borderline. People who have borderline personality typically have really painful trauma histories. Their fear of abandonment and rejection is not made up in their heads. It is coming from something very real for them. You can hold that and have total empathy, and recognize that they can act in ways that can be abusive, that can be controlling and manipulative, because their fear of being left is so big. This is where I really encourage people to say, diagnosis or not, you can make a choice to stay in this relationship and to work on it or to leave.

But I think that people who can recognize, especially post bad behavior, that it was bad behavior, and see that they have work to do, and see how their history impacts them and their willingness to do it, is a really important thing. When I look at, is this person able to do the work and be a healthy partner, or are they so focused on blaming the other person and denying what they’ve done that there’s just no hope?

I have found that to be very, very helpful and encouraging and indicative of possibility for growth in my own relationships, as well as just working with others. That if I can feel some learning and some understanding in that repair process, we have a way in which we can support each other or do something different, then we have learned, and we’re both taking ownership and we’re both participating in that. That’s very different than just reverting back to the same painful dynamics. I was going to say toxic, and then I’m like, I can’t say toxic.

That’s happening now. This cracks me up. Now in session, even clients or friends will say, I know that I shouldn’t say this, but I really think they’re a narcissist. I keep saying, they might be. They might have tendencies. You can still say that with me.

I know. I say toxic tendencies, I don’t say someone’s toxic. But even then, I was like, I shouldn’t say that.

Listen, I still use toxic, I still use triggered. I still use all of these words. So again, back to like, I’m not judging anybody. I just want us to be aware that we can’t just say them and then not be challenged or not have to explain that. We have to give context and be open to being flexible with how we’re using them.

Yes. I’m a licensed psychologist, and I still take great care and sensitivity to these terms, and have been in the field for my whole career. I remember coming across clients using the word love bombing, and I remember being like, that’s not even a clinical term. But social media, and then where it came from is this cult. I didn’t know that before, but you speak about that in your book. So some of these terms have been adopted, but then are used in this way, again, to weaponize.

So we’ve named that it can be for the person feeling pain and looking to have language. Because it’s like, sometimes when we’re hurting so much, we feel disoriented. We’re like, what’s going on? We have this device that’s so readily available to help guide and give information, but can spit out these things that, again, we don’t know the sources, or someone seems really articulate and clear. So I’m naming that it can be both helpful to have language and feel some resonance around: Oh, that speaks to my experience. But then how we use that, you’re giving great caution to. Can you talk about how to walk that line a little more?

Yes. I mean, my big thing is, I’m just not convinced therapy terms need to leave the therapy room. Some people really take issue with that, I’m sure. But I think if you think someone is gaslighting you, then I think you should talk about that with your therapist and see if it’s true, first of all. Then if they are, you have to address that with the person, in a way that’s actually going to get results or confirm or deny that they are gaslighting you.

I think that’s the issue, is that people, they find words, they use them. That was a boundary violation, you can’t do that. That’s the end of that interaction. That is really causing people to miss out on the meat of the work of repair.

Yeah, I love that. Thank you for underscoring that. Because it is my experience and just feels so palpably true, that when we’re seeking to have connection and intimacy and bondedness, it comes from that vulnerability and understanding. If we come to those interactions already decided, and that person, we’re not interested in what’s happening for them, we don’t get curious, they have no say. That’s almost like stopping relationship, to the point of ending the conversation or it’s already decided.

If you come in fully armed, no one’s going to be able to get to you, to get through to you, to connect to you. Because you’ve got all these weapons, all these shields up. Then I think it also leads to an arms’ race, where nobody wants to be the last one accusing the other person of the bad behavior. I do see this increase in volleying of terms, because it’s become a battle. It is no longer, this is how I felt. I felt so embarrassed that this happened, or that you made this joke in front of our friends. It’s just, that was emotional manipulation, that was controlling, that was gaslighting. There’s just no room for, like you said, this emotional connection point. But being vulnerable, I’ll admit, is very hard. When you’re feeling hurt, it feels very scary and risky to double down and be vulnerable again with the person that hurt you. But to have really close meaningful relationships, unfortunately, that is what’s necessary.

No kidding. Do you feel like this weaponizing therapy speak or these terms, like is gaslighting even a clinical term?

No, which is funny too. Because I think a lot of therapists, coming of age in this time, have felt like we have to catch up to the words that seem like they’re clinical terms and therapy terms that people are bringing in, and we should know about and we should be experts in. But no, I mean it came from a movie, right?

Yeah, it’s interesting how it evolves. But to the real clinical diagnoses, just to really have the help and the support for things that are operating, for there to be real treatment or support and improvement, professional help is needed if one is interested in exploring that. That’s not going to be from a lay person listening or watching something on the internet.

Yes. Let’s say your partner does have OCD, or is borderline, or whatever it might be. If you would like to be with them, then angrily saying you have this is not going to help them be willing to hear that, self-reflect, get help, feel comfortable and safe with you as they explore this possible diagnosis and treatment. So I say that if this is a person you would like to continue to be in a relationship with, you have to be very mindful with how you introduce this idea. Maybe you have realized that they could probably meet criteria for a diagnosis and would benefit from help. Well, then tell them that with kindness and gentleness, considering how hard it might be to hear. If it’s done accusatorily, it will not be heard, and they will not get help.

No, and this is where the weaponizing happens. It feels very similar in the ballpark of just pretty crude name-calling. It’s just a little bit more sophistication perhaps, but name-calling and character-attacking.

Yes, I think that’s fair to say. It’s name-calling.

Yeah, with some adopted authority.

Perhaps, because we feel like experts, because there’s so much information. I definitely have had sessions where I felt like somebody’s coming in teaching me about covert narcissism, because they did a deep dive on their ex and decided this is what’s going on, and feeling like they’re more of an expert in the room right now than I am. But after an hour or two goes by, you’re sort of like, what just happened? I spent many, many years in grad school learning about all of these diagnoses. I think there is a greater sense that everybody can be an expert in this, which, as you know, is not the case.

But social media has changed it.

Yes. If you have comorbid, which is a term where there’s coexisting symptoms or diagnoses going on, there’s a tremendous amount of complexity. When we look at the backdrop of someone’s lived experience and various traumas, it’s important to have real guidance in this. For some people, if we learn about history, it makes sense why they operate the way that they do. Again, not blaming or shaming, but really getting interested in more curiosity and healing and how to support a healthier, secure functioning relationship. That would be more, I think, helpful.

Yes, and that’s the funny part with this trend. I think we’ve all seen people diagnose their exes. I mean, I’ll put my hand up, I have absolutely done that. It helps you with that initial breakup phase where you’re just feeling destroyed by what’s happened, and it feels so much better to say: Well, obviously this is why we broke up, because they have this really big issue. But people are doing it in their current relationships, friendships, family, romantic relationships, with people that they want to stay in the relationship with.

So what do you tell people who have awareness, who might actually have language of the term narcissistic tendencies? I mean, that’s softer than he’s a narcissist or she’s a narcissist or they’re a narcissist. There’s a certain collective understanding about what that means. It’s not clinical. I’ve even had clients tell me, not in the clinical sense or not an actual personality disorder, but narcissistic or even if they’re like narcissistic tendencies, which I don’t object to because I kind of understand what they’re saying, and I hear that they’re holding it in this looser way. But tell me what you would advise. Because it’s like, how does somebody not use that if they know it’s a helpful term to communicate? It’s tricky.

It is. The hard line to walk here is that it’s on a spectrum, everything is. There are people who have narcissistic tendencies, and that can help explain and understand them and their social functioning. So I don’t want to take that away from people. I think my call to action for everyone who does use those terms, who’s pretty well-informed of them, is you have to make sure that you are drawing from real evidence and data, and you’re explaining. So if I have a client say that, I’ll pause them and we’ll go through, and I’ll be like, tell me more about what those tendencies are and what you’ve observed. I think people just want to say that and have it just be accepted and move forward. I mean, sort of like with toxic. First, tell me what kind of toxic, and then we can use toxic. But I have to know that we actually are on the same page about what this means before we just use it with the same understanding.

Totally. I think that might be with any terminology, that given different backgrounds or cultures or experiences, we’ll use the same word and we don’t always have the same meaning, and that’s part of the exploration. Absolutely. But for people who want to use the term, do you feel like it’s okay and to use tendency? Or what would you advise for people who want to use some of these terms? I just want to hear what you’re going to say.

Yeah, I’m fine with it. I say go forth, use it. I don’t think they should be erased from our vocabulary. I think how you use it matters. If it is used just to accuse and blame and absolve yourself, that’s a lot less productive than using it to understand, to empower, to make decisions for yourself with that person. So I think it’s okay to use, I just care about how you’re using it.

Well, and to that point, what’s really clear to me is, in relationship, when we look at how we’re caring for a significant other, how are we caring about them using certain languaging? Would we say that in front of them if we do say that? How are we using it, to your point? Is it to really be armored up and protective and cast blame? It just seems really important that how we speak about our significant other is our narrative about them or the core view of them. That’s important to look at as well here.

It is, and this is again back to the caution. You have to be really sure that your partner does truly have narcissistic tendencies that are beyond the normal range. Because once that’s been decided, it’s very self-fulfilling, and you can see anyone through that lens and they will seem narcissistic. So you have to be cautious in how you decide to look at your partner. If you have a negative lens, you’ll look for evidence to back that up, and it will be easy to find for all of us, because we all make mistakes and are difficult in different ways.

Right. Are we looking at ourselves through that same lens? Do we speak to our own tendencies in the same lens? That seems like it could be a little bit more equitable, if you will.

Yeah. I think some people do, and I think some people don’t. I think here is a focus on the other right now—understanding, defining, labeling, diagnosing the other person—and less curiosity about ourselves and what we’re bringing to it and how we can improve. I link this back to access to information and optimization. I think a lot of people feel like they’re done. Like they know themselves, they’ve done the work, they’ve healed, and now they’re looking for other people to do their work. But we’re never done. I’m not done. It’s a lifelong process, which again, it’s just easier to say that person is a bigger problem, has more work to do, and I’m good.

So it almost sounds like, Dr. Isabelle, part of what feels implied here is, if you feel the desire to use a term, perhaps there’s something going on significant enough. I’ll just say for me, if I’m using it. If I’m wanting to use a term, and it sounds like you’ve identified narcissistic use of boundaries, borderline, sociopath, toxic, love bombing, gaslighting, these are some of the things you highlight in your book. That that’s a pretty heavy-handed thing, and that if it is compelling to me, that perhaps I’m having an experience that is significant that I can turn towards and learn more about that. That that is important. That I’m wanting to use this term means something. I don’t know if I’m thinking that clearly or correctly, but tell me if I’m getting that.

No, I think that’s a good way of looking at it. Like, clearly this is big. It’s either big because that person is that thing or is doing that thing, and that could be a huge problem. That could be a legitimate red flag. That could be abusive, in which case you need to protect yourself and make some good decisions. Or somebody’s normal bad behavior is making you feel so bad that you are looking for this kind of clinical explanation, and that is important information for yourself too. Is that kind of what you’re saying?

Yes. Like, what’s happening there?

Yes, exactly. Can I not tolerate this normal person’s bad behavior? Am I having a difficult time seeing my own role in this dynamic? Do I have my own prior trauma or sensitivities that are making me very sensitive to a person possibly behaving in ways that remind me of these terms or diagnoses? It’s great information, and we just need people to take it and reflect on it and not just act. There’s just so much quick action without the reflection.

That could be really key. That if you’re compelled to use a term like this, that that is an indicator that there’s something really significant. Whether or not you’re getting activated, something’s going on for you personally, or the dynamic and the relational patterning has gotten off-track, that you’re both escalating to a place of pain, and that getting some support would be really helpful. Or your partner is experiencing patterns of behavior or ways of operating that are maladaptive or dysfunctional or unhealthy or meet diagnoses. I mean, I was trained, I don’t know about you, but I don’t see people as labels. Even if somebody meets criteria, I don’t say you are a narcissist. You are someone who has narcissistic personality disorder, if they’re on that continuum to that extreme.

Yes. But I think this is what all therapists have gone through, is we are taught how to use the DSM, what it means, and then we are taught to fall out of love with it. Like, this is the purpose of it, this is how you use it, but do not make this how you see people. Because that would be so unfair to our clients who are more complex than any one disorder could ever capture, and it’s just not as helpful or effective. But people are newcomers, and they’re learning about the DSM and all of these terms without going through grad school and without having a professor say: Listen, you need to calm down a little bit about this diagnosis though, it’s not the defining aspect of someone’s whole life.

Yes, and how things manifest. Depending on life circumstances and things going on, someone can manifest, meaning they have certain symptoms or ways in which they’re functioning. It might appear different at a different time in their life. Age, circumstance, stress, there’s a lot to be gleaned here before just making a diagnosis. Do you want to say anything for the person that meets criteria for a diagnosis, or someone that’s in relationship with someone who does meet criteria for a diagnosis? Because if I understand, that’s part of your concern, is these terms are being so commonly used that it almost reduces the importance of them or how they’re being used. It takes away from the actual significance. Can you speak about that?

Which is, to take this one example, a very serious form of emotional abuse, and people who are the victims of it will say it erodes a huge sense of your identity and your ability to trust yourself. It is not to be taken lightly. So part of this book is to defend the true meaning of these words for the people who do live these experiences. Whether because they have the diagnosis or because they have been with somebody who has met the criteria for these terms. For anyone in that position, I think I always first go to get real professional expert help.

Get off of social media. There are no answers there beyond what you’ve already gleaned. Whatever position you’re in, go see an expert who can help you figure out what is going on, and more importantly, what to do about it. That means that even if you are just the partner or the friend or the child of someone who has a disorder or who’s treating you in an abusive way, it’s still up to you to figure out what you’re going to do about it to protect yourself, to create distance, end the relationship, whatever that means. But the work doesn’t stop at identifying the term. The work continues after that. I would encourage people to remember that there’s many steps after, once you realize what’s going on.

No kidding. Thank you for acknowledging the significance of this, how it’s so pervasive and also watered down, so getting real support. I would even add, and probably would agree, someone who’s an expert who actually works specifically in personality disorders or specifically in the type of thing that the diagnosis is, because that’s a whole level of training and expertise than someone who just has a PhD or a master’s degree and works with people on all different things. I don’t know that they’re going to be as skilled. What would you say?

Oh, absolutely. I would always say, go to the most niche expert you can find that meets your criteria. In my ideal world, we would all be able to get testing done, so we could have just a much more data-driven picture of what’s happening for us if we have big questions. That’s often not possible. But yes, finding a specialist makes a big difference.

Yeah. Well, and not to back up too much, but I just wanted to comment. The person that’s in relationship and has concern about their partner, whatever term they’re using or wanting to use, represents a constellation of behaviors, like there’s a pattern here that I feel concerned about. Have a conversation about the pattern of behavior and the concerns, from that curious stance and that sense of understanding that I’m not feeling great, or this isn’t working in the way that we’re currently functioning. Can we work together? Because I’m not feeling great in these ways.

Yeah, or I’m worried about you. Like you said, I’m worried. I’m noticing these big swings in how you’re operating in your moods. Or your need for cleanliness has gotten to the point where it feels like it’s really actually causing you distress, or it’s getting in the way of our life in a way that I don’t think either of us. Can we talk about it? Can we talk about talking to another expert to see if there might be something going on that we can do something about? Like you said, a place of curiosity, of concern, of teamwork. Not just like, you’re a problem, go figure it out and get back to me. But like, I love you, I’m worried about you. This makes a huge difference.

Yes. Even, again, on the possibilities of how these conversations can go, there can be a scenario where one approaches their significant other from this curious, regulated, compassionate way or stance, and their partner isn’t interested. Maybe they do meet a lot of the criteria and they’re not interested, and that the person in relationship can look at: Okay, well, what can I do? Is this something, to your earlier, earlier point, that I feel I can be a yes to or continue to be a yes to? There’s some ways in which this can exist.

Yeah. I’m trying to think back of how many times have I ever heard of someone being receptive to that kind of feedback the first time they hear it. Never. It takes multiple times and multiple gentle efforts for someone to hear something like that and be willing to consider it, and some people are worth that. They’re worth sticking through the hard times and bringing it up again and pushing again. And some people are either causing too much damage to you or you’re not that close to, or whatever reason, it’s not worth doing that. I don’t think there’s a right or wrong, it’s just a decision people have to make.

Okay, this is so, so helpful. I know we have just a little bit more time. What would you like to focus on next? Do you want to talk about the specific terms and helping people? That’s one of the things you do so beautifully. Do you want to choose one of them and just lay out one term? I don’t know, how would you like to go, kind of things we haven’t talked about that feel helpful here?

Oh, great question. Let’s pick a term. I feel like people enjoy specific terms. Everyone asks about gaslighting, so we can do that one, or we can pick a different one. Or we can do trauma bond too. I feel like trauma bond is underrepresented, so let’s do trauma bond.

So trauma bond, and this one might make me the most frustrated out of all of them, even more than gaslighting. I’m sure you’ve heard people use it like, they feel trauma bonded when they’ve gone through a hard time together. So you’re trauma bonded because you have the same terrible boss, who emails you at all hours and is never appreciative of your work. But that is not at all what trauma bond means. What you’re describing is a social bond.

You’re socially bonded because you’ve been through something together. A trauma bond is the very confusing relationship between an abuser and the survivor, where the survivor is defensive of the abuser and wants to protect them and actually stay with them. For some reason, it has taken a turn and it no longer means that anymore.

Yes, just more collectively.

Yes, and I’m not sure what happened.

Well, it’s interesting. I remember reading in Stephen Porges’ book, it was one of his earlier books in polyvagal. I feel like he was talking about people who experience trauma together and some of the bonding that occurs, and yet I am also very aware of what you’re describing in the relational context of an abuser or an abusive relationship. So I wonder if it’s just one of those ways. I want to reference that, because I could be misquoting, but I feel like I remember that in one of his earlier books.

The hard part is it makes sense. The way people are using it is intuitive, it makes total sense. That’s why I think it’s taken off in the way that it has. Words and phrases do evolve, that’s the human language. We’re not going to stop that from happening. I think the case I would make is that we need to go back to Stockholm syndrome then and just use that, or find a new way of differentiating this abusive relationship dynamic versus being bonded because you went through something difficult together. I feel like that’s the point where we’re at. I can’t walk back trauma bond now. People have taken it to where it is.

Well, I have a client, she’s very educated. She was making a joke or just commenting about how she’s negotiated a divorce. I wasn’t working with her and her significant other. She reached out right as they were divorcing, or her husband. But she was talking about bath time being just super stressful. She was like: Yeah, sometimes it’s not great, I feel like I’m waterboarding my child. She was basically saying, my 3-year-old has soap all over his hair and he’s wanting to get out of the bath, and I have to basically just pour water over him before he gets out.

I’ve been there.

So I wonder if we use these terms to have some sense of humor or shock, and then we hear it once and then we use it. We’re so social in that way that we will mimic other people or use it.

Yeah. So I think with some of these nonclinical terms especially, they do have a life of their own. Therapists don’t own them. We’re trying to respond to them and keep them within these clinical guidelines, as they’re being used in that world. But we don’t have a definition in the DSM for love bombing. So that is the people’s word in many ways, or gaslighting. So it has taken off in a new direction where now people use it to mean anytime somebody invalidates them, or disagrees with what happened or their memory of an event, or lies in a conversation. Those things could all be part of gaslighting, but they are not in and of themselves necessarily gaslighting. So I think it’s an interesting challenge for our field of when do we step in and reclaim these terms, as my book sort of does, and when do we let go and say, this wasn’t ours to begin with and we need to find our own word for what happens in this situation or what this tactic is. We’ll protect this one, and people will know that it’s part of our language for clinical psychologists and therapists around the world. So maybe the APA needs to get on that.

Well, and I think conscientious people do respect, and maybe they do it a little bit more with me because they know it’s my field. So who knows what it’s like outside of our time together. Although, you’re informing people, you’re really bringing a call here. I think with this being more conscientious and really respecting the field and the level of research and all that’s gone into developing these terms and treatment, that there can be more regard for that and respect for that and have it be what it is. Even if it seems like you want to use the term, maybe there’s ways to reference it without thinking you know and doing a lay person’s diagnosis.

Or even the caveat that people throw in of, like: I know maybe it’s not actually this, but it feels like this for these reasons. Great, I’m fine with that. I’m not looking to police people to the nth degree on this, the conscientiousness that goes with it is so meaningful. Obviously, I felt this was a big enough issue to write a book about it. So in my life, I feel I’ve seen it personally and professionally. But it’s been encouraging that early reviews of people who have an early access have been writing, and these are people that I’ve never met, don’t know. They have been saying, like: This is a problem, I’ve seen this happen, I’ve done this, or other people have done this to me. I think it’s been brewing, it’s been happening under the surface. I think if we can put a spotlight on it, it’ll help all of us recognize it, own it a little bit more, temper our language a little bit more, and then I think it won’t be as big of an issue.

Well, thank you so much for your clarity. I know you had spoken about, in your book, this developing from writing blogs. You’re in the public discourse about this, so I really appreciate you being almost a spokesperson or really bringing so much guidance and clarity to this issue.

Thank you, it’s been very interesting. Fun topic to talk about and write about and talk about with you.

Yeah, wonderful. Well, how do people get your book? Will you please share the book title again?

It is called They’re Not Gaslighting You: Ditch the Therapy Speak and Stop Looking for Red Flags in Every Relationship. You can get it on Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and my publisher’s website, which is PESI. I think a few other places, but I’m sure that’s where people will look.

Excellent. Then where would you also like to direct people who want to follow you or engage with your blogs or other things that you’re offering?

So Instagram, Dr. Isabelle Morley. My website is conveniently DrIsabelleMorley.com. So if you want to work with me for coaching or access any of my other resources. I have some merch going up there for They’re Not Gaslighting You. You can find it all there. My blog is actually on a previous website, so I won’t shout that one out because I don’t think it’s up anymore. But reach out on Instagram, email me on my website. I would love to hear from everybody and their thoughts.

I love it. I love that you have merged that this is, again, bringing more awareness. Because I think we feel this. I think as humans we can feel like that was a little weighted or maybe a little exaggerated, and I think it’s counteracting a lot that’s in the world right now around these terms. So thank you. Just any other thing that you want to mention that’s on your website for people. It sounds like you do coaching?

I do coaching.

Okay, great. Awesome.

Thank you.

You’re welcome.