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About this episode

Passion and intimacy are at the heart of every thriving relationship—yet even the healthiest couples can find these sparks fading over time, or wonder if their desires are truly “normal.” For so many couples, sexual connection can become routine, tangled up in old beliefs, busy schedules, and silent worries about whether you’re truly satisfied or doing it right. The search for authentic sexual fulfillment often brings up more questions than answers, leaving many people longing for deeper, more meaningful connection but uncertain about how to find it.

In this episode, you’ll discover a fresh perspective on intimacy, focusing on how to move beyond comparison, shame, and routine to create a vibrant, personalized sexual connection. Guided by expert insights and the latest research, you’ll learn practical strategies for accessing flow state during intimacy, embracing your unique sexuality, and rekindling sensuality throughout all stages of your relationship. From breaking free of social norms to simple rituals for everyday connection, this conversation is packed with actionable steps and empowering ideas designed to help you cultivate lasting passion and deeper joy with your partner.

Dr. Emily Jamea is an award-winning sex and relationship therapist and the USA Today best-selling author of Anatomy of Desire: Five Secrets to Create Connection and Cultivate Passion. Emily speaks nationally and internationally to a diverse range of audiences. Her expertise has been featured in Oprah Magazine, CNN, USA Today, NBC, and more. Dr. Jamea is an award-winning columnist for Healthy Women. She hosts the Love and Libido podcast and writes for Psychology Today.

Episode Highlights

06:09 How Emily Jamia’s unique upbringing in a sex-positive home within a conservative town sparked her early interest in sexuality.
10:41 Defining “Normal” in sexuality.
14:07 The emotional and psychological dimensions of sex.
20:38 Building sensuality through everyday moments.
23:14 The science and benefits of affectionate touch.
27:02 Going beyond just resolving disconnects to proactively cultivating passionate connections.
28:01 The role of flow state in sexual satisfaction.
34:05 The five keys to deep sexual connection.
36:18 Simple practices for returning to presence and embodiment.
40:33 How small changes and novelty spark lasting desire.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Pause and breathe. Take a moment to ground yourself before discussing relationship issues.
• Remember, building secure relationships is ongoing work—not a one-time achievement.
• Focus on actions like mutual respect, repair after conflict, and “we over me” decisions.
• Avoid labeling attachment styles. Use attachment theory for understanding, not as a tool for blaming or limiting yourself or your partner.
• Be gentle with yourself about your relationship struggles—growth takes time.
• Ask curious questions. When tensions arise, explore what you or your partner are experiencing, rather than making assumptions.
• Slow down during conflict. Give yourself and your partner time to process—this increases the chances for empathy and understanding.
• Hold space for both compassion and clear boundaries when addressing hurtful behavior.

Mentioned

Transcendent Sex

Anatomy of Desire: Five Secrets to Create Connection and Cultivate Passion (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

ERP 362: Understanding & Increasing Sexual Desire — An Interview with Dr. Lori Brotto

Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication

Connect with Emily Jamea

Websites: emilyjamea.com

Facebook: facebook.com/dremilyjamea

Instagram: instagram.com/dremilyjamea

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/dremilyjamea

Podcast: emilyjamea.com/love-libido-podcast | podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/love-and-libido/id1572696112

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like it to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon, if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Emily, thank you for joining us. I'm looking forward to our conversation.

Thank you so much for having me. I'm thrilled to be here.

Yes. So you are a fellow podcaster. What's the name of your podcast?

It is called Love and Libido. So I talk about all things sex and relationships.

Lovely. One of the things that I get very excited about, as it relates to doing interviews as a host, is talking with people who have not only a level of training and development in their career, but have the experiential career experience, and then have also done research. It's just a really beautiful blend. So I'm looking forward to sharing you with my audience.

Before we get started, what got you focused on this particular area of focus, as it relates to desire and relationship sexual intimacy? Where would you like to start as far as how this became a focus?

Oh my gosh. It's like, how far back do you want to go? So I grew up in a small conservative town in southeast Tennessee. But my family unit, we were from Texas. My dad was an OB/GYN. So in our home, sex was not taboo. As I entered into adolescence, however, it quickly became apparent that it was something a lot of my peers held a lot of shame and insecurity about. This is kind of when the internet was just beginning to be a thing, but it wasn't like today where they could Google everything. So they started coming to me with questions, I think because they saw that I'm perfectly comfortable talking about it. So I think I was giving sex advice long before I was ever qualified to do so.

But fast forward, we moved back to Texas. I eventually ended up at the University of Texas. I was studying psychology. Took a human sexuality elective, not even realizing that that could be a specialty within psychology, and just found it fascinating. Because it was through that first class that I really understood how much you can learn about a person's psyche by asking questions about their sexuality, and understanding how they understand and express themselves in a sexual way. So I think by the time I graduated, I had taken every sexology class that the university offered. It was really from that point on that I hit the ground running and made it my focus.

Lovely. I mean, in my experience in two different graduate programs, they are elective, it's not like you can do your PhD just in that particular area, unless you do a dissertation. Did you do your dissertation on it?

Well, I went back for a PhD later. So after my undergrad, I went to grad school, and it was an MFT program. But even the marriage and family therapy program didn't require a sexuality class. Of course I took the one that they had, but it was still an elective. But by that point, I had started going to sexology conferences and really doing a lot of self-study. Then I opened up shop in Houston, and at that time, I was one of 3 certified sex therapists in a city of 4 million people. Keep in mind, I am in Texas. It is more conservative, it's very international. So I worked with tons of people who came from very conservative cultures or rigid religions that really struggled to understand and embrace their sexuality in a meaningful way. Then I just reached a point where I found a sexology program that I could do, and it was through that program that I eventually got the PhD in sexology and did my dissertation, which set the foundation for my later research and eventually my book.

Excellent, we're going to be talking a little bit more about that today. One of the things that I got, and I don't know if you would resonate with how I'm reflecting this back, but that you are not offering prescriptive advice for people that's very just uniform or universal. There might be universal principles, but really helping people come into contact with their unique expression, what really matters to them, as far as their sexuality, desire, arousal. Is that right?

Yes, if there was a cookbook for sexual desire issues. It's just so nuanced. The issues around desire and satisfaction are still, by and large, the most complex yet common issue that sex and relationship therapists treat. So they are complex. My role really, I see myself as a guide in helping people really discover their unique sexuality. I think I say this like three times in the book.

So I just really try to help people and empower people to feel good about, whatever that is for them.

I love that, it's very welcoming. Even in one of your comments in your book, and I resonate, that often people are comparing themselves. But it's such a private thing typically, unless one is a little bit more public. But it's hard to really gauge. So people do do some level of social comparison, it's just how we are as humans, and the idea of “normal.” But I think that does lend, I don't know if you would agree, but if somebody is questioning that is what we're doing normal, there might be some layer of discontent or yearning or longing, hence the question. Maybe they wouldn't be asking that question if they were really fully satisfied.

I think there's just a lack of information out there. As it relates to other areas of psychological wellbeing, we can generally say: this is the scope of normal. But with sexuality, I'm not going to go so far as to say anything goes. I think, obviously at a baseline, you have to have mutual consent and mutual pleasure. If that's not there, then we're looking at something probably more abnormal. But in terms of the average person who's questioning whether their sexuality is normal, a lot of times they're asking that question because they just don't know what the neighbors are doing, and I think because there is such a broad range of what we consider normal and healthy. So I'm always just trying to help them discover what's normal and healthy for them.

Yeah. This perhaps hearkens back to some of what you already mentioned, which is the culture, the environment, the paradigms, whether or not it's religious or otherwise that they grew up in, that sometimes relate to sex and has a layer of shame or some level of taboo, or there can be a lot of things layered in with this. So that question of normal could also relate to some of those early messaging.

So true. There are so many layers, so many intersections, as you said, between culture and religion and family and their relationship. All of those factors are going to make your sexuality unique in some way. So it's just not a simple answer or a simple question.

This is why you, I think, are saying that a role in guiding people to understand their unique experience is so critical to have that front and center, that it's not you're trying to emulate something else that maybe you've seen. Look, if you resonated with something that, that could be telling, and using that as information rather than adopting it as this is me.

Exactly. If that's not complex enough, it's like, what's normal in one season in life may look different 10-20 years down the line. So it's a very dynamic, evolving part of us, I think, which for me is what makes it really fun and interesting to work with.

Oh my goodness, and you said something earlier about the sexual expression or sexual self being so revealing to one's psyche. One thing that piques my interest, and I believe to be true, is sexual intimacy often is an embodied. It uses the somatic, the body. The body typically, in my mind, is a little bit more direct to what our experience is, rather than the intellect, where we can rationalize, contextualize, and we have all the framing that we can control or think we're controlling it a little bit more. Can you talk to us a little bit about what you see as the sexual expression or sexuality as such direct or so revealing for one's psyche? Can you give us an example? Can you say a little more about that?

Yeah. I think because when it comes to sexuality, there's obviously a physical embodied component to it most of the time. Although, there may be people who are having great phone sex and there is no connection with another person's body. So that right there just goes to show you, it's not simple. But I really love for people to see sex beyond a juxtaposition of body parts. Of course embodiment is an important part of it, and I write a lot about that in the book. But also, as an opportunity for really deep and meaningful relational connection and self-expression. I think as it relates to our psyche, we, especially as adults, go through life behind a mask in most cases, where we have one adopted persona with our family, with our romantic partner, with our boss, at work, with our friends.

I think when we go into it with the right mindset, like in the curiosity chapter of the book, I talk a little bit about doing new things. But what I prefer is for people to lead with a feeling. So rather than asking what new thing do you want to try, start with the question like, how do I want to feel today? Then once you've got that guiding you, a lot of cool things might follow. So novelty is so much more than trying the new toy that comes out on the market. That can be fun, but it's much broader than that.

Oh my goodness, there's so much depth to what you just offered. If the lead or the thing that we're following is this real internal interest or desire of what would I love, that's less being, again, put on me, but more coming from me, that I get to connect with and maybe play with or follow, and it develops. Is that what you would say the difference between body parts is? Does that relate to body parts and embodiment, for somebody listening that said they're different? Do you want to say more about that?

There's always overlap, so it might help if I back up a little bit. As I was doing the research that set the foundation for this book, I was specifically interested in whether or not people could get into a state of flow during great sex. We can talk a little bit more about that. But as part of my research project, I had really long conversations with people about what specifically they did to get into a flow state, so that I could tell the rest of the world and understand what the secret sauce was. It was through those conversations that these five themes emerged.

So the five secrets in the book are: sensuality, curiosity, adaptability, vulnerability, and attunement. Sensuality, as one might guess, is very much about the embodied aspect of sexuality. Curiosity, however, I would say is more about opening the mind. Adaptability, to me, is about courage. If one thing is to open the mind, another thing is to have the courage to implement change, as life inevitably throws you hurdles and you have to make adaptations to the sex you're having as you navigate that. I think vulnerability is about the heart, that's the emotional component of sex. Attunement is, I would say, the spirit. Not in a religious type of way, but it's sort of the gestalt of the other four components. It's where everything comes together, and “the sum is greater than the parts” feeling that I think so many people want to have during sex.

No kidding. It reminds me for some reason, I don't know, but I was meeting with a couple yesterday in morning, it was my first session of the day. He is, I think, Silicon Valley startup tech kind of world. She's heading up a little bit more of the domestic. But just the lives that they're living are so, so, so full, for them to even get time together is tricky. So I was prompting them. Because one of her things was, if his schedule is changing and she's not feeling like he's as available, sometimes it starts to trigger the feeling of like: Oh, am I important, or is he in care? That type of thing. So I was querying, could there be a little bit of a touchpoint to look at the week around, here's what the week looks like. Just so she's not just hanging out waiting and like, I don't know, and then contending with her feelings and all the things.

All that to say, they started getting into their schedule, and I was like: Well, let's just pause for a second. Can you tell me if you can soften your gaze, or if you feel comfortable closing your eyes and just tuning in? Like, what would you love, what would feel good, one thing around how to connect? I don't know where she got the term, I'm sure she was reading a book, but she talks about body bonding, maybe you know where it comes from. But I was like, I love that. Because it doesn't necessarily mean we're having sex. It means sex even in the broader definition, but it could just mean we are body bonding. So regardless, immediately, it was less of her head, how do we figure this out? It was more of what came from this more connected place in her that was like: Oh, I want to walk around the lake together. He was like, yes. Then there it was. I was like, that feels like a little bit more trying to access, I don't know if you would say embodiment or pleasure or just tuning into what would feel good. Does that fit with sensuality as you talk about embodiment?

For sure, it fits in a couple of different segments of the book. I think I would say it also fits into adaptability. Because what I try to do is move people away from this idea of sex as having a beginning, middle, and an end. I had one couple I was working with, or I think it was one of my research participants actually, who said we see sex as this constant energetic charge between us, that we can turn the heat up or down. I was just on another podcast this morning with a sexologist and she was saying, it's like that cold start. If there's just no physical contact at other times throughout the week, it's a cold start. I was like, yes, precisely. So I do, in the sensuality chapter, have a whole section on relational sensuality and touch that's not always sexual, but is so important in keeping those pleasure pathways primed. Because especially if you want to have really great sex and you have been living like two ships passing in the night the whole week, forget it.

You know, it's like trying to run a marathon when you've only walked around the block a couple of times. It's just too big of a leap. So yes, I love that term body bonding. I think carving out little daily rituals, whether it's literally an extra 30 seconds of snuggling together before you roll over and go to sleep. Or instead of sitting on opposite ends of the sofa to watch your evening program, putting a foot on a lap. Or sharing a cup of coffee, that's a sensual shared experience, or a glass of wine or whatever it may be. To maintain a sensual connection in some way, I think, will help bridge the gap between the craziness of life and sexual intimacy.

Emily, I don't know if you would agree, but it seems to me that if there's a nurturing the sensuality, that there's a bit of fuel or fire that is being nurtured. Because I will say, I love my husband, I find him attractive, I want to be intimate with him sexually in all the ways. And there are times where I feel like if I'm approaching and I'm a yes, but my body is not primed, I almost feel like: Oh, it's a little bit of like having to get myself over this. It's almost like my body is, not necessarily resisting, but it doesn't feel like it's coming from this internal place.

I think with the mental thought like: Oh, he looks good, I would like to. Yeah, precisely. There was a really interesting research looking at prescribed physical touch on desire and satisfaction. Perhaps no surprise, once couples started just affectionately touching each other more, their desire went up and their satisfaction went up. What I found to be so interesting in one of these studies, they found this to be true even for people who didn't value touch. So the client that's like, I'm just not a touchy feely person, or it's not my love language, or maybe the more avoidantly attached person who's just not as comfortable with touch in that way. They found that even for those people, there was a huge positive benefit. So we've got to keep that going.

We need that. I think that's somehow lost in our goals and life, that somehow we think sex is supposed to just sustain or the intimacy, and the passion is supposed to just self-sustain. This physiological contact and all the things that can happen there is so important.

Well, Emily, one of the things that I got from just your work, is that your offerings, and what you researched and then wrote a book about, is helping people understand not just how to handle the challenges or get back into some form of connection. It's actually how to be in this very satisfying, fulfilling, and you talk about flow, state. So that's a beautiful thing to talk about. Not just how to get over the hurdles of how we've gotten disconnected, but to talk about what this landscape can look like.

Oh yes. I had reached a point in my career where I could help people mitigate differences in desire or improve satisfaction. But I noticed, when couples came back for the accountability session that I'd always have a couple of months after termination just to check in on things, that they would say: Yes, we're better, but it's still not as intense as it was in the honeymoon phase. I'd be like: Eh, honeymoon phase doesn't last, that's neurochemicals. Or they'd say: Well, we want it to feel like it seems to feel in the movies. I'm like: Eh, Hollywood, fake. I'd cite the good enough sex model, which that's the word, is the good enough sex model. That most of the time, sex is going to be good enough, to set your expectations.

But I started paying closer attention to the specific language that they were using, words like effortless. I want to feel lost in the moment, I just want the world around me to disappear. I was like: Oh, that's flow state language, of course that's what people want to feel during sex. I was familiar with flow state science, I had read Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi's book, I think back in grad school. But for people listening who don't know what that is, it's the state of mind we enter when we are so fully engaged in an activity that we experience time speeding up or slowing down. We feel a sense of unity or merger with the thing we're doing, like a surfer who's at one with the wave. I'm like: Okay, well yeah, this makes sense, but I've never heard about flow as it relates to sex.

So I turned to academic literature, and there was nothing. I was like, how can this be? The closest thing I could find was Peggy Klein Platt's work on optimal sex. So she was one of the first people to really move beyond just looking at sexual dysfunction and satisfaction, and the people who really have figured out how to sustain optimal amazing sex, what are they doing? But she wasn't looking at flow specifically. So I did a research study and got really great quantitative data, finding specifically that people who scored high on those sexual satisfaction questionnaires were experiencing flow. But what was more exciting to me is that we found that flow was a predictor of great sex. So it was like, I can teach people about flow and see if that helps boost their satisfaction. And it did, and I was getting really great results.

Because I think a lot of people can identify something in their life that has put them in that state, whether it's painting or golfing, or your friend who's addicted to the runner's high, a surgeon. We know from flow state science that it's not just an individual phenomenon. Flow can happen in groups. Look at a sports team moving as one unit on the field or the court, or a group of musicians who jams out playing music that isn't planned. I'm like, there's something to be said for figuring this out with your partner. So that's really what set the foundation for the book.

That's wonderful. Can you tell me, is there an assessment or are there assessments for flow that you were able to then administer?

So I tried to create a flow state assessment for sex specifically, and it's just been hung up in the peer review process. I'm not affiliated with a big academic institution, I'm a solo gal just trying to do some research to make sure I stay evidence-based. I need someone to take over and just keep the ball rolling.

Well, you're the person to do it, it sounds like.

I mean, I'll say this. to answer your question, yes. I don't have any official evidence. It's not gone through peer review at this point. But I have the questionnaire, I put it together, and I think it's pretty good.

Nice. But what about just a flow state questionnaire?

Yes.

Okay, so you were able to do that. That's how you did your research. I love that, yay! That's so fantastic.

So I had people complete, there's different sexual satisfaction questionnaires out there. The new sexual satisfaction, it's called the NSSS, and there's a short version, that tends to measure sex satisfaction on the higher echelon compared to some of the others. So I used that, and I used a flow state questionnaire that is reliable and all the good stuff.

Oh, I love it. Because my dissertation was qualitative and there wasn't any preexisting real research. I had to pull from other qualitative studies, and I did a meta-analysis of those 10 studies. But it's kind of trying to develop the field, because there weren't those tools. So I love that that was available for you, and I love that you're moving it forward. I'm curious on an aside, so I do know that there's transcendent sex, and there's some of the slow sex that might utilize some of the tantric, not necessarily, but just more of the principles that you're describing. Do you see any overlap? I love that you're making this more accessible, that it doesn't have to have a lineage or even a spiritual component. But do you see any overlap?

Oh, for sure. I read up on tantra, there were a couple studies out there that looked at transcendent.

Like, Jenny Wade or something.

I'm not familiar with her work, but one on altered states of consciousness. So overlap, for sure. But to me, flow is so accessible. It doesn't feel too East or West. We know from flow state science that we are hardwired, like anyone can experience flow. They've even studied flow in some animals. So it's accessible. It's in there. After I did the quantitative part of the study, I called up the people who had the highest scores and had really long conversations with them in these phenomenological interviews to get the qualitative piece. Because I'm like, that's where the stories are going to come out. That's what's going to really help bring this to life so that I can tell the rest of the world. It was through those conversations that I felt like these five themes emerged: sensuality, curiosity, adaptability, vulnerability and attunement.

As I took a step back and looked at those qualities, I was like, we are born with this stuff. We are born sensual. We are born curious. Four-year-olds ask an average of 400 questions a day. I have one right now, and that is a fact. We are born with the ability to adapt. We are born vulnerable, with the ability to attach. And to attune, we've got mirror neurons in the brain. So what I tell people is, this is not a matter of becoming someone you're not. The way I see this is that life happens, we are influenced by culture or negative experiences or so on and so forth that disconnect us from these qualities. But it's really just a matter of reconnecting with qualities that are already there.

I'm so glad you said that. Because it feels like it resonates, it feels very innate, it feels very true. Yet some of those concepts, sometimes when they're reflecting back to us things that we know and resonate with, it's like: Yeah, of course. But also, we can forget and we can get in our own way, or there's things that maybe have been injuries or things that have constricted our ability to access these things. So it sounds like you're really offering a remembering, and also what this can look like to bring into adulthood. I mean, just as we're wired and maybe have lost it along the way, or we've cut off certain parts of ourselves to be adults in the world. But it's so great.

The five, I know we can't even begin to scratch the surface here. But is there one that you find that people benefit most from or that you feel is really challenging for people? It depends on the person, I'm sure, but generally.

It depends not just on the person but on the underlying issue. So what I tell people is, if you're a couple with young kids and you're working, and you are like two ships passing in the night, and you need to Marie Kondo your sex life, read the sensuality chapter. So many women especially, almost every day, are like: I can't quiet my mind to even connect at all with the physical sensation. So that's what the sensuality chapter is all about. If you're the couple for whom sex has become a bit routine or monotonous or too predictable, then I would say read the curiosity chapter. Because that's all about opening up the mind, but not always in the way you think.

If you feel like you're struggling to get your sex life back on track after a life adjustment or hurdle—having a new baby, or the hip is arthritic now and you can't rely on the position you used to, or the penis isn't as reliable as it used to be, or you're taking care of an aging parent. Or whatever it is that's putting a damper on your sex life, then the adaptability chapter is all about how to navigate that. If you feel like you're struggling due to an emotional disconnect in the relationship, then the vulnerability chapter is for you. Attunement, like I said, it's the gestalt of the other four. It's like where everything comes together. Although, I wouldn't say to read that without having at least looked at a couple of the other chapters, just because I do draw from them a bit. So I wanted this book to be something that could stay on people's bookshelves as a resource, depending on what they need at any given point in their life.

Absolutely. Well, from the ones that you've mentioned, is there any perhaps step that you would encourage? Perhaps let's do, if you will, the sensuality. Just because that feels like such a common thing to be in modern living. So busy and engaged in all the tasks, and then to come back to the body. Any invitation or recommendation there?

Go back to single-tasking as much as possible. When I was working on developing the sensuality chapter and just kept thinking about how frequently I was hearing this complaint about this inability to quiet the mind, I called one of the first sex therapy supervisors I had. Because she had retired from seeing clients, and this would've been in 2009. So we had smartphones, but we weren't in such an app-driven world as we are today, where we could listen to a podcast while on the treadmill and checking emails. I mean, that's a lot. I asked her if she remembered her clients complaining about that, and she thought about it. She took a few days to get back to me and she said, I really don't.

Or if you had a chaotic crazy day, as sometimes it's just so inevitable, to work in a little transition to move into the erotic space. Sometimes that's sitting down and taking literally 30 seconds to do some deep diaphragmatic breathing, or prolonging the time you and your partner just spend in bed touching each other before really cranking up the heat, to quiet the nervous system down a little bit so that it can then get excited again in a different but single-focused way. So it's that kind of stuff that I talk about in the sensuality chapter. I think mindfulness is a great first step that'll help you have better sex, but embodiment is really what's going to take it to the next level.

They work so beautifully together, when we can be really present and aware. It's reminding me of Lori Brotto's work on mindfulness. Then also to see, it makes space and room to notice, using the five senses and what am I aware of? If I'm in a busy day, it is hard to switch over just to even be present to what would feel good. I don't know, sometimes I'll get on my yoga mat and I'm like: Oh hello, I haven't been paying attention to my body all that much. So gratefully, I try to, and I have practices. But it's easy to get pulled into all the things and get task-mastering even if I'm not multitasking, but just the multitasking. So that's such a great recommendation, thank you.

I'll tell people to think about what's more physically gratifying in your body, like having checked everything off your to-do list or that perfect day at the beach? What feels better in your body to remember? I think sometimes it's shifting that perspective and adjusting our priorities a little bit, we need that reminder.

And we're alive. So even just the sensation of what would feel good, it's like, what is generative? It's not so much the result and what's the better result? I'm agreeing with you, and I'm also like, it's dynamic. It'll give good feedback and we get to work with that.

Yeah. We are human beings, not human doings.

Exactly. Well, do we have time for one more, either the curiosity or the adaptability that you mentioned?

Oh gosh, so the curiosity chapter is a fun one. I talk about these five secrets in the book, but flow actually has eight core components. You don't have to have all eight at the same time, usually two or three will do and be enough to get you there. But one of the most predictable ways to get into flow is by striking the right balance between challenge and skills.

What we know from flow state science is that the challenge of what you're doing only needs to be 4% greater than your skills, to hit that sweet spot. So I think this takes a lot of pressure off people. Because we do know from the research that novelty is a key predictor of long-term satisfaction. You're doing the same thing your whole life, probably not going to be very sexually satisfied. But I think when we look at it through a flow state lens, it's about taking something that's familiar, but maybe making it more psychologically or emotionally interesting. So take, like, the missionary position. Instead of just that belly-to-belly breathing in the ear lazy missionary that so many women zoom out.

So I was talking about this with a couple, and I wish the story had made it into the book, but it had already been edited at that point. But they came back and I had explained all this, and he's like, so what I did is I took her hands and I pinned them up over her head, and that really got her attention. I was like, I bet it did. Because it was something she was familiar with. It was still missionary, but it got really a lot more intense, but not by really changing things up that much. Or by asking your partner to really hold eye contact, that's going to crank up the emotional piece in a really cool way, and invite your partner in versus just looking past each other. So there's so much we can explore. Like we were talking about earlier, leading with the feeling as opposed to the behavior when it comes to exploring novelty. So there's a lot of good juicy nuggets in the curiosity chapter that I think help people feel like doing the new thing is not as scary and threatening, and still very accessible.

Wonderful. Well, I'm so grateful that you continue to offer information for people and ways to access, and the book you've written. So tell us a little bit more about your book. I know we've been talking about it, but what's the name and what's the title?

So it is Anatomy of Desire: Five Secrets to Create Connection and Cultivate Passion. It's currently available everywhere books are sold. The paperback is coming out later this year, but it's available in all other formats. If you visit my website, which is EmilyJamea.com, and click the Anatomy of Desire tab, I have hundreds of dollars’ worth of free resources you can get with qualified book purchases. You just fill out a form and then you get them all delivered to your inbox, including the masterclass, and the workbook that has exercises in it that didn't make the cut into the book, and the 30-day intimacy challenge, and all kinds of fun stuff. So be sure to check that out.

That's wonderful. Your website, will you say your website?

Yes, it is EmilyJamea.com.

Excellent, I'll make sure to have the link on today's show notes. Also, are there any other things you want to mention, like are you doing social?

Gosh, yes. I'm on all the social media channels at Dr. Emily Jamea. I've got my podcast, which you were so nice to mention, it's called Love and Libido. I'm accessible, so if someone's listening and has a question, just send me a DM and we can chat.

Excellent. Thank you so much for being here today.

Thank you so much. The pleasure was all mine.