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About this episode

Are you stuck in the cycle of trying to control everything in your relationship, only to find yourself drifting further away from the connection and harmony you truly crave? Sometimes, the harder we try to make things “right,” the more we lose sight of what makes love resilient, joyful, and honest. The truth is, love isn’t about micromanaging or enforcing your idea of perfection—it’s about learning to ride life’s unpredictable waves with trust, acceptance, and a willingness to let go.

In this episode, listeners are invited to explore how letting go of control and embracing the natural flow of love can transform the way they relate to their partners. Through personal stories, reflective questions, and practical guidance, this conversation offers insight into why acceptance and trust are essential for deepening intimacy and resilience in your relationship. You’ll discover tools to break free from the criticism-defensiveness loop, foster genuine communication, and understand how even small shifts in mindset can create lasting change in your love life.

Daniel A. Miller is a best-selling author who explores how acceptance, letting go of control, and trust can transform relationships and personal well-being. His newest book, The Way of the Wave: Nature’s Model for Navigating Life’s Currents, offers practical guidance for embracing life’s unpredictability with greater ease, resilience, and inner peace. Daniel’s work draws on decades of experience, blending personal stories, research, and wisdom to help others live more empowered, connected lives.

Episode Highlights

04:49 Lessons in listening and humility from Daniel’s early controlling behaviors.

06:51 How nature and acceptance transformed Daniel’s approach to relationships.

13:25 Letting go of control: The key to real intimacy and gratitude.

19:44 How Daniel learned quick repair to break cycles of withdrawal.

21:12 Attunement and emotional safety as the root of true intimacy.

26:08 Life’s crises exposed control’s dangers and the power of acceptance.

31:12 Trading fear for acceptance unlocked deeper possibilities for Daniel.

37:22 Humility and vulnerability as foundations for lasting

41:29 How acceptance and engagement create richer, more intimate relationships.

45:19 Letting go enables trust, imperfection, and true flow in life.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Embrace your partner as they truly are. Release the urge to judge or change them.
• If you notice yourself trying to control outcomes, pause and choose to trust the natural flow of your relationship.
• When you feel triggered, ask yourself: What am I really feeling or fearing underneath this reaction?
• Welcome quiet moments or “lulls” in your relationship—they provide opportunities for insight and deeper connection.
• Recognize when you’re expecting too much from your partner. Communicate your needs and remember that some things are yours to fulfill.
• In moments of conflict, lead with humility—own your part, apologize if needed, and invite honest conversation.
• Offer your full, undistracted attention to your partner. Listen to understand, not just to reply.
• If you find yourself pulling away, intentionally come back to repair and reopen communication as soon as you can.

Mentioned

The Way of the Wave: Nature's Model for Navigating Life's Currents (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

The Gifts of Acceptance: Embracing People And Things as They Are (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Losing Control, Finding Serenity: How the Need to Control Hurts Us And How to Let It Go (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication

Connect with Daniel Miller

Websites: danielamiller.com

Facebook: facebook.com/people/Losing-Control-Finding-Serenity

Instagram: instagram.com/danielamillerauthor

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like it to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon, if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Danny, thank you for joining us.

My pleasure, for sure. Thank you.

Yes. Well, we're going to be talking about flow—the flow of love, how flow relates to love and relationship. Tell us, if you will, for people who are getting to know you, how this became of interest. How did you begin to focus on this?

Love and beyond. In parenting, and in all areas of my life. But in love, I guess I focused because I've been married three times. I made mistakes, certainly when I was younger in the first marriage. So in writing the book, and even before writing the book, I try to take stock of what parts of me, what aspects of me contributed to, I won't use the word breakdown of marriage, whatever you want to call it, the separation. It was very apparent to me, even then, that I was a major controller—in business, and in my personal life and personal affairs. For big controllers, first of all, they're not humble. I may have been soft-spoken, but I wasn't necessarily humble. What happened as a result, I was too often telling my wife what she should do, what's best for her, pressuring her to do things that maybe she didn't want to do, not listening enough.

It's almost an embarrassingly funny story. But there was one point that she stopped responding, and I thought for sure that her ears needed to be checked and her hearing was off. So I insisted that she go see a hearing doctor. I remember when he called in with the results, I said okay. He said, I'll never forget: Her hearing is fine, I just don't think she wants to listen to you. That was so true.

From that experience, and others, of course, and over time, I learned many things about having a connected, bonded, intimate relationship. I am so blessed to have that for over 30 years with my current wife, Sikita. I even wrote a poem for our wedding, it's called First Love. It was the last love and first love, and it just shared how we came together, and what was important, and what worked for us, and bringing our past experiences to the new one, so to speak. It has just gotten continually better. I can get into the specifics, but it's really error, mistakes, trial, recognition, working on changing those patterns that didn't serve me well. In all aspects of my life, but certainly in my love relationships, with parenting of my children, in my work. Some of the same issues, when I write about in The Wave, as a metaphor for our life challenges, so many of the things that obstruct the flow—control is the big one, judging, expecting, not being humble enough, not being truthful—those same things impact the love flow. So what I write about, it feels universal to whatever part of life or arena in life we're dealing with.

Okay. So for people listening, you're mentioning your book. You want to say the title?

Sure, it's called The Way of the Wave: Nature's Model for Navigating Life's Currents. Now, there's a little backstory to that, if you'd like to hear it. During COVID, I think a lot of us were going through files, we had all kinds of time. So I was taking old files from the garage and moving it to a shed. I came across 15 typewritten chapters of a book that I was unable to publish, but wrote in 1988. It was called The Wave. It contained a lot of what's in the present book, but I was never able to carry it to fruition. Because two things, I wasn't able to articulate the concept well enough, and now looking back in hindsight, I hadn't had the life experiences, especially with the relationships, that I now have, so to speak.

So when I saw it, I said: Well, maybe I could write it again, see what happens. So I said, let me start just with an introduction. Because writing books, it's not my livelihood. It's my passion, my love. So I take my time. So writing books is a five to seven-year process. Anyways, I didn't know if I wanted to engage in another five to seven years. But as I started writing, I knew, in a short order, that yes, that's what I want to do, and that's what I've done.

Well, Danny, what seems really beautiful is that you resonated with something you were observing in nature that helped you perhaps articulate as a metaphor, speaking of universal, that we can all relate to. Most people have a sense of what a wave is, or hopefully many have experienced what it's like to be at the shore experiencing waves. This is something that I think is really helpful in being descriptive, and also perhaps as you're speaking about your life experience, that when you were able to feel the alchemy of what you were learning inside yourself, that that made more available the ability to speak to this so coherently around the way of the wave.

Yes. A couple of the key things, especially for people who haven't body surfed. I used to when I was younger, but even if you haven't, one thing becomes very apparent. 

So it's a matter of finding ways to let go of control and accept what is. In relationships, it's accepting our loved one or our partner as they are. So I write a lot about that. There's certainly challenges, but when you're not, my view is, you're saying they're not good enough, or something about them is not good enough when you're not accepting them. There's a lot that goes into what I mean, the definition of acceptance. It doesn't mean we have to condone or excuse or anything like that. We can disagree. But it's important to accept this underlying reality, whether it's the relationship or some life issue we're dealing with, is to come to terms that this is the way it is, this is real. If I'm able to accept that, it opens up choices that I have or maybe new paths that I could pursue, consistent with that reality.

Going back about nature, I spend a lot of time in nature. I have the most beautiful olive tree about 50 feet from here, and it's the first thing I go out to and honor in the morning. My morning prayer is the serenity prayer, and I say it before my beautiful olive tree. I get up early, and just being out in the quietness of nature, the solitude of nature, it brings me great comfort.

Even if it's walking around the block or whatever, or certainly hiking, there's so many different things. But just being out. So to me, it is a model, a way to live. I don't think there's judgment or control in nature, it doesn't have expectations, and there's a mystery to it. There's an unknowingness and a mystery to it, but somehow, I feel connected with it.

Maybe you would agree, that the flow or allowing space for things to emerge or reveal themselves, or for us to participate with what's happening from this acceptance place that might challenge our preconceived notions, is a natural state.

It is a natural state.

So we're resonating with nature because it is a natural state, which also could speak to, a moment ago you were speaking about, on the receiving end of commentary, maybe your previous wife or wives felt not good enough with the evaluation or the critiquing. And for the one that's offering it up, they may not even have the intention to convey you're not enough. It could just be better. I think, often in life, we learn these control tactics to protect ourselves or to try to feel some sense of safety in circumstances that don't feel safe. So we learn these patterns, while our intention not isn't always necessarily to hurt someone or put them down. But tell me if you would find that.

Yeah, I'd like to share on that. You said two very important things, to me. That is, allowing that space. To me, I refer to it as being willing to tread waters, or to welcome what I call the lulls that we have in life, where there's that space, and we don't necessarily know what to do with that space. It can be uncomfortable as well. That's why I call it both a wave obstructer and enhancer, because it can be a very positive thing.

But getting back to the control part, first of all, I want to say I have excellent relationships with my ex-wife. We are one big blended family, and I accept them fully as they are. So much of the credit is due to my present wife, I want to acknowledge that, that she's all embracing. It's just wonderful. Anyways, back to what you're talking about, the control. I agree. I don't know that we're intentionally trying to make them feel bad or less than. For me, it's usually fear-based. Something I'm anxious about, something I'm fearful about, something I'm concerned about, that comes out in these ways about: You should try it this way, you should do it this way, or that's not a good way. There's some part of that. The same thing with expectations. 

The bottom line, for me anyways, is when I'm expecting too much of my loved one, or if I am, two things. The focus is on them instead of me, where can I do the best good? Then behind the expectation, I believe there is some need that we're looking for another person to fulfill. I've learned that my basic needs, only I can fulfill. So even if they do all these things that I maybe expect of them, that's not going to fulfill my need, is what I've learned. So that's why I talk about the importance of moderating our expectations of others. I don't like to have people expect things of me, for sure.

I can use my present relationship with my wife, because it's so strong and solid and bonded, is we are very different. We have certain interests and ethics and values that are common, but we are so different. She's an extrovert. I'm more of an introvert. She does things differently than I do. We don't judge each other and we accept each other, even certain annoyances. We have these annoyances, but we accept that that's just part of it, and really appreciate and are grateful for all the wonderful things that we have together. That's so important. Again, that comes into, I believe, acceptance in the other.

Absolutely, and I think you said something really important. When we can bring the attention back to what is it that I'm needing, or is there a fear that I'm having. We're not always conscious of this, that it's often a little bit more of this inquiry practice to understand: Okay, how come I am having some charge here? Because sure, I imagine you would agree, that in relationship, we often do have agreements, which is perhaps different than expectations. But that we're coming to that from a place of regard, respect, and allowing. It's not this control or forcing. Those can always be renegotiated if something changes, they're alive and dynamic. But that's different than this quality of: I need you to do this or that, or my state of being is threatened when you do this or that, thus, I need you to do that. That is very much the other person not wanting that responsibility and feeling like that's not mine to do, but also disempowering for the person, because we don't have that power.

Yeah, definitely. Disempowering, and to me, it creates resentment and divisiveness.

Absolutely, thank you for saying that. Because when you're talking about your wife and the practice of really appreciating and having grace around even small annoyances, that when I think we're doing the emotional hygiene and we're not feeling that our needs are not met, or resentments that haven't been cleared or processed or repaired, then these things accumulate.

I used to be that way. I have a poem in the book called Default Mode, and that was, for me, withdrawing. So if we would get into an argument, this is in the past, I would withdraw. I would physically and emotionally withdraw. I would be stuck in that withdrawal, meaning it was extremely uncomfortable, and I didn't know how to get out of it. That's why I actually ended up writing a poem, a very short poem, about how to get out of it, because it is so uncomfortable. And what I've gotten much, much better at, it's not that I don't withdraw, it's less frequent and it's really short, but blasted. Because I know that it's harmful, not only to me to, but to my partner. So I have to find ways to come out of it.

Fortunately, we're both very forgiving of one another. For us, it's acknowledging what maybe we did wrong or not right, and having a conversation about it. It used to be: Right now, if it happens, I may go for an evening, but the next morning, I want to talk about it. I want to come back, and she really wants to welcome me back. It's a practice. Like all of these things, it's a practice. So denying, withdrawing, avoiding, those types of things are harmful, obviously, to a close relationship. There's another one that really works well for me, and it took me a while to learn it, is to ask myself the question: what was my part in it? So often, when we get into an argument or dispute, the feeling is: I didn't do anything wrong, it's what they did.

What I've learned, that's not the truth. That I've always had a little role in it. I'll tell you another cute story. When our daughter was 12, uh, we would take her to soccer matches in Pasadena, and my wife usually drove. She would invariably miss the turnoff, the correct turn, and would get a little lost. Some of the times I would say, watch out for the right turnoff. So this one time, I decided I'm not going to say anything. So I didn't say anything, but didn't want to distract her, and she takes the wrong turn-off. She gets upset at me. I said, what are you talking about? I didn't say anything. She says, I could feel it. I could feel the smoke coming from your mind and your brain. It was like fumes. It was so heavy. When I examined that later, I was really anxious. I had anxiety and I had discomfort, and I was worried. I was thinking: Oh God, she's probably going to take the wrong term. All those things, she picked up on. So that was my part in it, I had to own up to that.

Yes, I love that. Well, I do believe, this is where I think it gets tricky in intimate relationship. I think as humans, I think they call it neuroception in the polyvagal language, around we're picking up on the nervous system of others around us, especially our closest people. And then, how much of communication is nonverbal—the posturing, the facial expression. I think we feel one another in intimate relating.

Along those lines, in a more positive way, in a way, with us, it has gotten progressively more. I will be thinking about something, and within 20 seconds, she's going to raise it or say it, and vice versa. It could be just different subjects, different topics, things I'm thinking about. She raises that subject. It's like, wow! I don't know if that's that neural thing you're talking about, or being around each other for so long and knowing each other so well.

Well, one of the things that I'm hearing is, there's a safety in the dynamic with your significant other, that you can be more yourselves. You talk about the flow of love, and when we can feel that safety, that acceptance, we're more able to show up more fully. When you talk about withdrawing, oftentimes when we're feeling some discontent or something hurt or didn't go well, it's a protective strategy to withdraw. So when there is the repair and the coming back and how much you both have practiced that, then it does allow for more of this expressiveness and the ability to be, and therefore, we're sinking more, I think, or we're feeling more of that synergy. That would be my thought, I don't have the science around it.

Yeah, I think so. I don't think there's anything we can't talk about or don't talk about. That's what I refer to in the book as trusting the currents, is that trusting that I will be okay, trusting that we will be okay. Things may not be as I maybe would've liked, necessarily, or hoped for. But things will be okay. That's that trust, and the trust that can develop with two people is so valuable.

The other night, I had gone through a period that my mother, believe it or not, who lived 101 years old, she died a couple months ago. I've had two of my closest friends die. I didn't realize how much I was holding in. As we were lying in bed, just talking, somehow something came up. I think I was saying, I would like to be lighter. As soon as I said that, I started crying. I hadn't cried in probably two years, and she was so right there for me, listening. That's the other thing, Jessica, I want to share how important it is, just true listening, attentive listening. Really healing for the other person. With my children, I've learned that so much, is just to listen. I don't have to offer advice. I don't have to try to solve their problem. But just being there. And she was so there for me.

The attunement. She really felt you, and she was attuned to you and present to you. How healing, holding that space, it's such a precious gift.

I felt so safe.

Yeah, and the wellness around that, that how we can feel more whole or feel more regulated and supported and resilient to just have that support. I'm really grateful, thank you for sharing that. This potentially, you might help here around just your perspective, that as you talk about the trusting and how you both have developed this over time, and conversely, the habit or the tendency to be controlling. Because I don't know about you, but I feel like sometimes that control tendency is hard to turn off because it's so heavily reinforced in modern society, where it's like, thinking and being able to get to the best solution, or problem-solving, or different industries that support this. So it's almost like that gets reinforced, getting an A, or thinking through and what is best. That's very different than the listening and the allowing and accepting. So you talk about mindset. How did you shift from the mindset of that control? You talked about recognizing that there's the fear underlying. Do you want to say more about the mindset of how to shift out of that?

I do distinguish between, I want to say procedural control, which is more in medicine or business, you having established procedures for efficiency and things, versus emotional control. So the emotional control is what I feel is very harmful. I went through this period of five years where I had about five very traumatic events and situations that literally brought me to my knees. I had someone try to set fire to our home beneath our son's bedroom. Almost bankruptcy. I was in real estate, one of my buildings burned down. It was just one thing after another, and with each one, I would control more. I felt the need that I had to be on top of it. I had to persist. I had to be vigilant. Until finally, I missed doctor's appointments for lesion on my nose. It was supposed to be a 20-minute procedure. It ended up three hours and five major operations after that. That's why I get into this whole thing of self-neglect and self-care is very, very important. But on the control, first of all, I recognized that my controlling ways brought me to that point. That's when I started writing this first book. It wasn't a book. It was a self-help journal. I actually called it the Secret of my Survival. Because somehow, I got through all this, and now I wanted go back and see how I did, and what slowed it down and what deterred that. That's how I started writing. I was writing about fear and anger and resentment, certainly control. So I knew that control was harmful for me.

How did you know that? Can I ask you, how did you know that?

Because of the results of it. When I was controlling with my children or telling them what to do, I was met with resistance or them turning me off. So one of the ways that you can tell is the way people react to you. You can look at the signs. So you know just even by the way they physically look, or certainly what they say, that they don't like you. So then I can ask, am I being controlling here? Most often, I was. Not always, but most often. So the other thing that's similar is, I'm trying to be aware if I have any dis-ease or discomfort in what I'm doing. That could be in the business world, is when I'm trying to do something too controlling on a business matter, when I get this resistance or uncomfortableness, then I have to look back and say, am I controlling? Then, it's to look at, which ways am I controlling?

It's almost a hypervigilance, I don't know if you feel this way, that if we are using this mindset of control, whether or not consciously or unconsciously, it's almost like I have to engage or bad things will happen, or I have to do X, Y, and Z. So it's very much like, I need to be on pins and needles to make sure things go okay. That's the very opposite of trusting that it'll be okay. If that's how I believe, then I feel like I have to control.

Right, I trust the current. Then, the other thing about control and giving up control and letting go of control is what I call future events already ruined. FEAR: Future Events Already Ruined. So often, controllers, even non-controlling me, my speculations are almost always negative. So what I'm aware of is: Uh-oh, I'm going there, there is not here now. I want to come back here. If there's something I need to deal with that's maybe generating some concern, then let me deal with it right here based on what's here, not what may be there, or that it may fear being there. So that's another way. So basically, what I'm saying is recognizing when you're fearful or afraid, and what's behind that? Well, fear is the catalyst for control, for my mind.

Thank you, that's well said. As I'm hearing you direct people back to the moment, that's where we have our power. When we look at fear, anxiety, worry, it's often anticipating a future event, not feeling confident around how we're going to be able to handle it, and also trying to mitigate threats. So as you invite people back, you've talked about acceptance a few times here. Now, easier said than done sometimes. So when one is confronted with something they don't like, but also, how do you help people accept things that are uncomfortable, they maybe don't prefer or want or find challenging? How do you help people accept those things? You had mentioned bringing people back instead of thinking about future events, and bringing people back to the moment that that's where they have opportunity. Then you talk about acceptance as part of the anecdote. How do you help people accept? Because you also acknowledged it might not be what I wanted, it might not be what I prefer, and I find it challenging. How do you help people?

In my book, The Gifts of Acceptance, I talk about practicing acceptance. It's a practice. It is not something you just say, I'm going to accept. It's not that. It is being aware of it and trying to work on it, and then there's a couple other things that go into that, is not to take things so personally. We oftentimes take things very personally that may not be the case. We might imagine that what someone says or did, we take it personally that they're doing it to us, and they may not be. That may just be about them. It's about them, not me. So if I can do that, especially if I'll have a thing, like say with my wife, where she gets emotional or whatever it is that I feel like is coming off on me a little bit or unloading on me. I can immediately, first of all, be upset initially. But if I take the time and look at it, she's going through this, whatever that this is, and this is how it's coming out. Like you say, she's not intentionally trying to do me ill or blame. That's where she is. So I can then try to detach and remove myself a little bit. It's not easy, but I can lessen it. I can reduce that, and then I can accept her and what's going on.

When I talk about acceptance, when I define acceptance, as I mentioned before, it's not condoning or excusing. It's accepting this underlying reality of the person or thing, and it's fine. But I put a limit on it. If it's harming me or people that I love or concern about, then that's where I start setting some limits. I don't have to accept that or to take that, or I can do things to protect. But most of the time, it's not that type of harm. It's more seeing these people as they are. I've done this in business. I used to get really tangled up in business matters when someone would breach a lease or do this or do that or complain about something. I was in the real estate business. I would take it so personally.

I had a situation where one of our tenants, during COVID, kept using COVID as an excuse for not paying rent and for living there, and this and that. I got very upset, etc. But then what I realized, he's not trying to harm me. He's elderly. He's not in good health. He doesn't want to be out on the street. So he's just looking out for his own interests. Once I was able to see that, I could back off. So those are the types of things that lead towards being more accepting. But as I said, it is a practice. But the gifts of that practice are: connectedness, intimacy, bonds. I like to say, when you accept what is, you can discover what might be. It could be going on new paths, new directions. I have stories in the book that my life, I would've never predicted how my life is today, if I look back 30 or 40 years ago. It's a journey that, hard or easy, it is one that I'm glad I took, and I really believe it's because of that journey that I am where I am now.

Yeah. This perhaps is conversely to the approach of needing to force or control, that sometimes we will experience hardship or that life will present the dis-ease or the difficult traumatic things. When, if we're in a place of accepting, then we're relating to what is, versus trying to force what isn't. It's really important. I don't know if you feel this way, but it just seems like you're giving us some tips here around how to not take it personally. Perhaps entertain the perspective of the other, maybe even feeling some level of empathy or consideration, that it can offer a little bit more room than our current vantage point based on our egocentric frame.

One of the things that I sometimes do, I'll ask questions around, I don't have a specific one at the top of my head right now. But I'll ask questions around, well, what if this is just true? Sometimes I think, in relationship, we might feel like the person is doing it to us. Like, what if this was just true for them or this was real for them, and what if I could just accept it? What would that mean? Because sometimes, you're right, underneath it is a fear or a concern of what would that mean? But if I just look at that, well, there perhaps is a new opportunity there, a new possibility that's unexplored.

Right, and so often it is, and it can come out in amazing ways. We often hear stories of people, terrible hardships, and how it changed the direction of their life, and how eventually they found some positivity in that.

This goes to the humility that you were talking about.

Humility, yes. I give the example, if you're surfing or body boarding, whatever it is, if you're not humble, if you're not respectful of the waves, you're going to get hurt. Humility, that's the other thing actually in the relationships is. I'll share, with my present wife, she does things very differently than me. The way I would do something is not the way she would. At first, I questioned it, but I didn't express it or say it. Because she's pretty stable and she does pretty well on her own, she's pretty independent. So like, who am I to say? But what I've learned, interestingly enough, being humble is me not being self-righteous, not feeling you know it all, or that you're omniscient. All those things, to me, you have to get rid of, if you want to be humble.

What I learned is, I'll give you an example, is that when we're going to do a vacation, I'll want to plan it out and check all the hotels, or whatever it is. I'll want to think about it for a couple days. With her, she'll pick up the phone and do it, just like that. That's not the way I would do it. But I got to thinking and I said, you know what? It really works well for her, and maybe I should try some of that. So that's really interesting too. Because all the ways that we're used to doing things, maybe there's more efficient and lighter ways of doing them.

We might be surprised at what can get created from a different approach, and maybe even pleasantly surprised. Even at times, it might be better than we would've ever thought. Danny, you said something earlier that speaks to humility, I believe, is this willingness to come back with your wife. Apologize, look at how you both maybe contributed, or be open to the vulnerability of seeing one's part. To me, that speaks to the humility to take the emotional risk, to be open, to not withdraw, and to feel like we're caught in our story. Because we can be right, or we can be in our own safe mindset or construct of our thinking. But that takes us out of relationships. So being in relationship in this humility of openness is sometimes a risk, feels vulnerable.

It's overcoming our ego, for me. I think for men, it's really an ego-based thing, is this whole thing about admitting that I was wrong. So what you're saying is, the challenge of owning up to that. You've got to own up to it. It's not easy. That's why it would take me days, in the past, before I could own up to it. Now it doesn't, because I think I am more humble and I see other points of views. As I say, I always ask myself, as I mentioned before, what part may I have had in this relationship dysfunction, or whatever you want to call it? Every time, there's at least something. Maybe small, but there was some part, and I need to accept and own up to that. Because that brings me back from my withdrawal, and it's so important. That lonely inner sanctum that I can go into or that we can go into, it's a very lonely place. So I do my best just not to stay in there for any length of time, and I don't go in there nearly as much. I can still go. I mean, things can happen. I can get very upset, emotional, etc. But I feel I've learned the tools now so much better, how to deal with those things.

Absolutely. Well, I appreciate you sharing and just giving an example, an expression to how this can look in the developmental process of this. I do agree that this is a practice. You spoke about the serenity prayer earlier, and we're talking about humility. And what I understand about flow, it's not complete surrender in that I don't participate or I don't engage, like passive. It's being engaged, but in an attuned present way that offers room and space for things to be dynamic, not forcing or trying to control. So is it a balance for you as well?

It is a balance. And what I say is, it's not a passive state. It can be active. It doesn't have to be passive. It's not like a total surrender. What I find, if we're not sure, like in the serenity prayer, the last line is: the wisdom to know the difference. A lot of times, I don't know that wisdom, maybe from past experience. So if I don't know, I can try, especially with control or not accepting. If I'm not sure, maybe I'll do something. Maybe I'll persist or be more involved. That's when I look for the signs, I call it the to and fro of the wave. If I'm getting this resistance or discomfort, then I know I'm sort of into that arena that I'm too controlling or not accepting. Of course, the courage to change the things I can, that's a difficult one, the second line. Actually, for my own self, I now say courage and willingness to change the things that I can. Because sometimes I feel I'm unwilling or not willing enough.

Yes. I was thinking the same thing, Danny. I was thinking, could I let go, or what would happen if I didn't get my way or how I am envisioning this? Like, what would that mean? Sometimes that's just a good thing to reflect on, because sometimes it is about control. Other times it does illuminate, well, this part seems important, and maybe there's a way to let go of my idea. But just say, here's an aspect of this that feels important, can we include that? Get out of the power struggle of what sometimes can happen in relationships when two people are trying to control.

No, there's definitely that give and take, and they say ebb and flow, and advancing and knowing when to retract a little bit maybe, back off. 

And the other person, especially if it's a person, is feeling good, they're feeling desired, they're feeling maybe important or acknowledged. I think acceptance does those things. With my children, I've learned to be that way. I know when I'm not accepting, I don't like that. I don't feel about that right. I might resist that. So there are gray areas, for lack of a better word, and that's what I take, is take a little swim, paddle a little bit, and see what happens.

Well, you might find this humorous. I haven't thought about this in years. I believe this was 2006. My husband and I, I think we were at Folsom Lake, which is grass valley towards more Sacramento. We were going wakeboarding. He used to wakeboard, and we were with some of his friends. I had never been wakeboarding. I had done snowboarding, and I had water skied when I was young. All that to say, I was more familiar with snowboarding. I got on the board, I was being towed, and I got scared of how fast we were going. Because I'd never done it before. My body was trying to control the speed by carving. So in snowboarding, you use an edge to slow down, and I was doing that, and I was face planting. Like, literally, I just would face plant water in my eye sockets. It was so painful. This happened three times until I realized: Oh, I'm trying to control the speed of the boat, and I can't. I'm slowing down and the boat is pulling me, so I was face planting. I was like: Oh, I can just say, please, go a little slower, with a thumbs-down. But talk about control. I was trying to control without even realizing, it was just kind of a somatic response.

Yeah, sure. I'm an avid tennis player. I played seniors tournaments, and I was very mental and controlling in my tennis game when I was in matches. Overthinking, trying too many things, just upset at myself, etc. When I was writing the book, when I started during COVID, my tennis got better. In a way, I actually had a couple of tennis podcasts, which is great, with really established tennis players, and they really connected with it. One of the things that I learned on the court is, when I make a mistake or an error, I'll actually say to myself, and I do say it: Danny, I forgive you. It works. It just takes my mindset out of that mistake and brings me to: Okay, now let's play this point. 

Oh, thank you. I love that story, and I can appreciate the value and how it might sound silly, but actually on a deeper level, open up to this acceptance and flow. If I'm getting too constricted and all in my head, or upset about the move I just made, when really, the next point is happening or the next rally is happening.

Okay, wonderful. Well, I know you've already mentioned the name of your book. Would you want to say the name of the book again and where people can find it?

The Way of the Wave: Nature's Model for Navigating Life's Currents. As I've mentioned before, I narrated the audiobook, which is the first time I've done that. I'm very pleased how that turned out. So the audiobook can be purchased on any audio retailer, Audible or any of them. I have the print and the eBook, Amazon, iTunes, Barnes and Noble. Then at my website, for those who are interested, it's DanielAMiller.com. I have some writings on the wave. I have some of my art, some of which I was painting, trying to be on the wave while painting, and some of my poems. I have about 150 short articles on acceptance, control, and now the wave, and related subjects, like we've been talking about, judging, expecting things like that. And on the Serenity Prayer, I have a few.

Absolutely. You mentioned your other book too, The Gifts of Acceptance.

Yeah, The Gifts of Acceptance: Embracing People and Things as they Are. And the first book, Losing Control and Finding Serenity: How Control Harms Us and How to Let It Go. Maybe I'll send that to you. Written by an extraordinary controller, at the time.

Well, I mean, this speaks to the practice. Even as you've mentioned the Serenity Prayer, just so many people resonate. Typically, to have reminders, to have inspiration or encouragement to be in the practice, I think it's all so very supportive. So thank you for all that you're offering, and I'll make sure to have all the links to your books, to your website, Audible, all those things on today's website. Thank you.

Jessica, I really enjoyed talking with you. It was great. I loved your questions, and I sort of felt we were on the wave a little bit.

Nice, me too.