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About this episode

What if everything you know about love is a myth—built on luck, chance, and hope? The truth is, many of us walk into relationships with big dreams of “happily ever after,” only to find that real connection can feel overwhelming, elusive, or even impossible to sustain. We use words like “respect,” “trust,” and “compassion,” but rarely stop to define what they truly mean for ourselves and our partners. Without a roadmap, couples often end up lost in confusion, miscommunication, and heartbreak.

In this episode, you’ll discover a fresh, research-backed framework for designing love that actually lasts. You’ll learn about the six key ingredients necessary for truly thriving relationships and uncover why love can’t survive on feelings alone. By diving into practical strategies, real-world examples, and self-reflection tools, this conversation offers a powerful guide to recognizing what really matters in your connection and how to nurture it, every single day.

Dr. Sara Nasserzadeh, Ph.D., is a renowned author, speaker, and thought leader in relationship dynamics. With experience in 41 countries, she has advised hundreds of couples, governments, UN agencies, and corporations. Her book, Love by Design: 6 Ingredients to Build a Lifetime of Love, explores six key principles for thriving relationships. Dr. Nasserzadeh’s work has been featured in leading media outlets, including NPR, The New York Times, BBC, CNN, and more.

Episode Highlights

05:45 Dr. Sara’s unique approach to relationship dynamics and global work.

09:43 Unpacking the emergent love research model and its origins.

10:58 Grounded theory research: Analyzing couples and identifying relationship patterns.

15:52 Defining core relationship concepts and the search for universal ingredients.

19:19 Emergent model findings: Moving beyond “love comes first”.

21:01 Three phases of research and development of a relationship assessment tool.

24:42 The six key ingredients for lasting love.

29:11 The power of loving behaviors and nonverbal communication in relationships.

32:20 Cultural and physical factors that influence emotional connection.

34:32 The importance of everyday gestures and their impact on intimacy.

38:07 Small actions and social etiquette: Nurturing connection in daily life.

44:49 Understanding your “love blueprint” and core sensitivities.

45:56 Knowing yourself: Quirks, pet peeves, and vulnerabilities in relationships.

49:24 Dr. Sara’s resources, final thoughts, and where to connect.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Begin and end each day with a simple greeting or acknowledgment to your partner, as maintaining these small moments of connection is non-negotiable for nurturing intimacy.
• Reflect individually on your “love blueprint” – your values, quirks, sensitivities, and pet peeves – then share these openly with your partner to foster mutual understanding.
• Strive for reciprocity (not equality) across key relationship ingredients like compassion, respect, and trust by tuning into what matters most to your partner and responding accordingly.
• Go beyond acts of care and add warmth, tenderness, and intention to your gestures—such as a gentle touch or genuine compliment to create emotional resonance.
• Have an explicit conversation about what respect looks like to each partner, ensuring that expressions of respect truly land as intended.
• Use periodic structured check-ins (weekly, monthly, annually) to discuss what’s working, what needs attention, and explore any cracks before they widen.
• If nonverbal cues like facial expressions are limited, use verbal scales or other creative methods to communicate emotional states and needs.
• When addressing conflict or unmet needs, focus on naming the underlying ingredients (such as lack of compassion or shared vision) to target efforts more effectively and avoid miscommunication.

Mentioned

Love by Design: 6 Ingredients to Build a Lifetime of Love (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Relationship Map To Happy, Lasting Love

Connect with Dr. Sara Nasserzadeh

Websites: sara-nasserzadeh.com

Facebook: facebook.com/Dr.SaraNasserzadeh

YouTube: youtube.com/user/DrSaraNasserzadeh

Instagram: instagram.com/dr.saranasserzadeh

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like it to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon, if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Dr. Sara, it's lovely to have you. Thank you for joining us.

Thank you so much for having me. So you're calling me Dr. Sara. Is it okay if I call you Dr. Jessica?

Yes.

Lovely, thank you.

I'm always thrilled. I know I mentioned this to you before we got started here, that it's one of my favorite things to interview practitioners and psychologists who have done research and contributed to the field. And have both the practical as far as how they're practicing in the world, but also their contribution that's informed by research. It's a privilege to just have you share what you've created as far as your model, and we're going to be talking about that.

But before we do, is there anything you want people to know about you, what feels important to share? Just where you're coming from here, or even how this became of interest. How did you start really focusing on love and this interest?

Well, thank you. For the longest while, I was thinking how to make sense of what I do. Because I work with relationships at macro and micro level, and to make it a little bit more accessible, I say I help people relate to one another in a healthy way, from bedrooms to boardrooms. So that's how I introduce myself usually, and it took me years to come up with that idea. Because it is what it is. So I do psychosexual therapy and work with people in their intimate spaces, because that's the most vulnerable place. That's where we are usually most authentic or not, and we have the masks on. To find people somewhere in between is pretty rare. Then all the way to couplehood to parenthood, to the way that we show up for our friends, and then all the way to the work that I do with the United Nations and companies, just to help them see their customers, do the community surveillance, or access negotiations for access, or this sort of thing. So at the core of everything I do is to help people relate to one another in a healthy way, so that they have that sense of fulfillment and thriving at the end of the day.

That's beautiful. I know some people will reference that not everything is relationship, and you're giving some range here around how you work and how you support people in these different domains. I think leadership, especially in the entrepreneurial space, where what someone's creating is very much a reflection of them and their work. So to have the support to look at areas where perhaps are underdeveloped or weaknesses or areas that just perhaps have not been explored or processed. So I love it. I'm grateful. So you did some research. Can you say a little bit more about the Emergent Love Model?

Sure. So the research is basically three pieces of research. One was the thinking styles, how we think. So for example, a lot of couples who come to us, I'm pretty sure you are familiar with it very, very intimately too. One person says: Oh my God, just get to the point. Then the other person says: But I need to process. So those go back to the thinking style of the person, external processes, or they think to talk or they talk to things. So these sort of things that create discrepancy in a couple's relationship, or anybody for that matter. So that's one, the thinking style. That piece of research I haven't done. Dr. Pejman Azarmina did it, which he was actually the co-researcher for this one as well.

So I got that data, and then I went back 10 years retrospectively and I looked at the account and the notes that I took for the sessions with 312 couples that I personally worked with. The criteria for it for me was that they had to be my own clients, not associates' clients, and then they had to work with me for at least a year, so I have a very good understanding as the patterns are shaping. Then, when I came up with all of this data, plowed through them, then I came up with the patterns. In research, as you know, we call it grand theory. The way that we work with it is like a grand theory, meaning that we have a lot of data and then we plow through it, we come up with the patterns, and then from there we will take it forward.

So I didn't have a hypothesis. I had hope. I wanted to see why relationships thrive. Because I got to work with these couples from the moment that, unfortunately, usually couples come to us ready to kill each other and they're falling apart. They are really in the moment of really low. Then hopefully, if this is done right, whichever direction they choose to go after, at least they have really strong and solid and determined steps in their path forward, whatever path they choose to go to. So I wanted to see whether, first of all, what we call a coupledom, two people coming together, usually heterosexual, usually certain topology that we have in mind. Do we have any other ways that people relate to one another and call their coupledom, a coupledom? So that was one. We actually ended up with eight configurations, which is another thing maybe we can talk about. So that's one.

Then the other one was, I realized that there are certain words that I keep getting, like compassion, empathy, trust, respect. But then these are all words, and as a person who works globally and across languages, I'm like: Ah, maybe I can say, Dr. Jessica, I love you, and you say, Dr. Sara, I love you too. Do we mean the same thing? Do we show up the same way? I respect you, I respect you. Do we mean the same thing? These are huge concepts that we deal with in every interaction that we have. So that was one piece that came out of it. The other piece that came out of it was, I figured that love, the way that we define it, it's first of all something that happens to us. Something that we get if we are lucky. Something that, if we are lucky enough to model after the people that raised us, all of that.

Luck doesn't do much for me in my life. Because if you look at the trajectory of my life, yes, apart from the part that I'm alive, that I made it out of a war zone alive and doing what I do. So that part of it, I don't even call it luck with the spiritual belief I have. I think I was blessed that I made it this far. But what if somebody is not blessed in the love department? We can't do anything as experts? That doesn't sit well. So that was another hope, that with all of these words and definitions that we have, how can we make people actually measure. Am I really respected in this relationship? Am I imagining? All of that gaslighting and just imagination, disillusionments. So that was one. Then out of that research also came that it's not that love is there, and the rest will follow.

So spark and love come together in a conducive context, to give us beautiful cozy fire. For as long as we decide to give it everything that is needed, then it'll give back its beautiful, warm, cozy, all of that good stuff. If it's not, for a second we take one of the elements away, the fire dies. Then we end up with this conversation that I love you, but I'm not in love with you. So that disillusionment, heartbreak.

You know because you work in this field. So that was one, the emergent love piece of it. But that was qualitative. Then I took all of that, because so far, it's the subjective opinion of a person who works with couples and the researcher in it. I got it, and I wanted more. I wanted to see if we can scale it up. So if I talk to this couple, how much of it is related only to this couple? How much of it we can actually scale and generalize, as we do as researchers? You know, my PhD is in social psychology, so I'm always interested in those interactions that we have in interpersonal and intrapersonal, and then see if we can scale it to the society.

How it applies to other populations, other cultures, or just how representative it is. I mean, this is where it becomes more universal, or we can really look at how this is playing a part. It's being able to test the research further, to your point.

Exactly. Is there more validity to it? Is there reliability to it? So then I teamed up at this phase with Dr. Pejman Azarmina, and then we put together 159 couples, the US representative. That mattered to me because, convenience sampling, usually for me as the therapist, I'm the social psychologist, it doesn't really cut it for me. Because convenient sampling, majority of the research that you read, without knowing the sample size, if you really dig deep, it's with college students. I love college students. But on the other side of it, they are just at the beginning of shaping a long-term relationship, just by pure age. So that piece of it didn't sit well. So I needed a representative sample. So meaning that the average education in America, we needed a sample. The race, the sexual orientation, relational orientation, I needed them in my research.

So with these 159 couples, we also had them separately studied in more than 340 individuals. Again, I wanted to see how this works. Let's say for example, in a coupledom, this person says I respect you, and the other person says I respect you too. But that is the expressive part of it, so the expression of it. But do you feel respected? That's a different story. So I wanted those pieces between the expressed and the reception. So out of that research came the six ingredients that need to be there for love to even have any chance to emerge. So these were the three pieces of research.

Out of that final research also came an inventory, which is a validated test for couples that they can just go and take. The way it works is that it doesn't show you if you are the brink of a divorce or a breaking apart. But it'll show you the strong, the medium strong, and the cracks in the relationship. So it shows you all, so that you actually put your effort where it matters. Because I'm sure you see couples and individuals as well, dating or in coupledom. It's not that they're lazy, it's not that they don't put the effort. They do, God knows they do. But they put it in the wrong place. Because if the trajectory of the relationship is not going to change, make all the efforts that you want. But if you don't put it in the right place, then it's not going to go anywhere. So that was one of the reasons that I wanted to show people that: Hey, you want more respect, here's how you do it. Then leave more room for people for their own ownership, their own interpretation of it, so that it's not like a prescriptive thing. That you do this, and then it's not causal. We are complicated. We're humans.

Well, and then it's not coming from an outside source. That if your person, really their top item or most important longing is to feel respected and it looks a certain way, they're looking for a specific way that that respect is expressed or how they want to receive that. If that's not known, their partner could be putting in all this effort, and that to them is feeling respectful, but it's not actually hitting the mark for their person because it's meaning something totally different. Well, I'm appreciating just how extensive and how comprehensive you've really supported the continual research, and really the validity and the reliability of it. Are you getting it funded? To your point, a lot of research happens within a university or an organization. So are you willing to share?

No, self-funded. But we have to obviously apply for the ethics and making sure that everything is done properly, so self-funded.

Oh my gosh, congratulations.

Thank you so much. I just want to own my voice. Also, when it comes to love, it's such a concept that it's sacred. For some people—Simon May is a philosopher in love in England, and he talks about this—that if we really try to talk about love, it's as if you took the sacredness out of it. But a lot of clients that we see, I'm pretty sure you see them too, they arrive at our offices so disillusioned. It hurts my heart to see their heartache. So we need to be able to do more, we should do more than just holding space for people. We should really do more. We are the experts. We see people day in, day out.

To be able to make this specific so people can resonate and feel like: Yes, that's what I've been trying to say! Or their partner is like: Oh my goodness, now I understand, I didn't know what you meant. So to have support that's also, as you said, researched-based here. So if I understand, part of the Emergent Model is that these ingredients, if they're being attended to, and couples are responding to one another, so that what matters to them is getting met, then the effect of that is that they're going to be experiencing the warmth, the love, the connection. And that when there are the disconnections, that that can also have the reverse effect. So that there's a little bit more proactiveness, that people can feel a bit more empowered when things get off track. It's like, okay, well let me look. I have a little bit more resource to identify perhaps where are the areas where we're missing each other, and will that support our love connection. Versus we're passively, as you said, expecting that it's going to happen to us. Am I hearing that right?

Yes, absolutely. I'll give you an example. One time I had a couple that came to me. The husband was unfaithful multiple times and still going on, and then his wife got hurt over and over and over again. When they came to me and we were just discussing this, this came to light. I said, I find that very disrespectful, because you are in a monogamous matrimonial situation. You signed the marital contract and said, we are going to be monogamous. You had a conversation about it, and you're still doing this. I find it disrespectful. The lady in the mix, the wife said, I find it lack of compassion. Because you see I keep hurting, and you still do it. Where's the compassion? The gentleman in the situation, the husband said: Well, I see that as lack of shared vision. Who said we are monogamous? Although they had the conversation. I'm sitting there, and I actually shouted out in the session. I said, do you see? We are three people, the issue is in the middle, and we each see it so differently. Like Rumi's description of the elephant.

We really look at the issues that we have from our own angle, perceptions, and the perception of the mind, cognitive distortions that we have, all of that. It's really interesting to me. That's what we need to really break through. So that, to your point, when we are talking about something, are we even talking about the same thing? Or another example, how many clients I have come and say, I feel disrespected by my partner. I just look at them and say, are you respectable? They look at me saying, what do you mean, lady? Of course I am. I'm like, how many times you walked all over yourself? How many times you actually think that your boundaries were loving and firm, instead of passive-aggressive? So how many times did you know there are breakages of each of these ingredients. That people think they have a very good understanding, but do we?

I so appreciate just your challenge here, and that it seems as though this is a quality check, based on research, based on the field's understanding. That we're walking around with these constructs. In psychology, we would call them constructs. They're hard to identify. We don't have a lot of behavioral terms, or we try to have behavioral terms to really be descriptive and define them so we're talking about the same thing. But it's these things that are difficult to have description around, like love. It's a sense, it's not like a physical book that I can describe the measurements of it and various things. So it feels like you're giving people an opportunity to reflect on, have some real resource, and these ingredients, to check and quality check. Like, I say this and what does this mean to me? But also, here's what some research would say, and how does that fit with how I am showing up?

Yeah, absolutely. For example, when I was writing the book, there are six ingredients. Probably it's time also for me to name them, I just keep saying six things.

Let's do that, I was thinking the same thing. You have kind of, but let's be clear.

So one of them is attraction. 

So when I was writing the book, and also, I included the chapter, From Sexual Chemistry to Harmony, because physical connection matters a lot, and all of these six ingredients show up in that physical connection that people have. The other thing is the conflict, and the conflict management style. In our research, we find that there are three models of conflict, the way that people show up in their conflict. Then in the last chapter, I give people check-in and checkups. So for example, the daily check-ins, and then the weekly, the monthly, the annual. So again, the roadmap, it is just my biased brain that I want to know where I put my effort, and a proven way to show you that if I do this, I get something at the end. So those are the ingredients.

But when I was writing it, each of them went to one chapter, and then I had one chapter, Loving Behaviors. As I was having conversation with my lovely editor, she said: Sara, this is really interesting because the whole book is called Love by Design. So it's about love. But you are putting a whole chapter about loving behavior. I said, yes. Because yes, although I'm talking about compassion, respect, and trust, but being loving towards somebody has qualities that nothing else has. For example, going out of your way, giving benefit of the doubt. Being tender in touch, in word, in your look, in your presence, in your energy around them, in the compliments that you give to the person.

So there are certain qualities that goes even into the act of loving. For one person, it's: Oh, you bring me coffee every morning. That's for me, maybe an act of loving. But for the other person, it might be something else. I'm not talking about languages of love, I'm talking about the qualities. You can bring that coffee, but there is no tenderness, there's no going out of your way for me, there's no having my back. That is not a loving act. That's caring, that's beautiful and generous. But there are qualities that came out of our research that makes a relationship loving.

I so appreciate you underscoring that. The way in which we relate and how that's expressed, the love and the care, whether or not it's tone of voice or intentionality, the undivided attention, how we are attending to the other in that loving care. I've shared this on the show before, but I remember this was several years ago. 

My husband and I, I think it was around lunchtime, he happened to be working from home that day, and I work from home often working virtually. We had an exchange, and he was seemingly put off, and I was queried. I was like, what's going on? He's like, you're not being very nice. I was so surprised. I just felt very neutral. I felt very just task-oriented, and I was reflecting on it. I felt slightly defensive in the moment, because I'm like, I'm not being mean, I'm not being rude. But then later, I questioned, and I was like, is it that I am being a little bit more task-oriented, thus you're not feeling my love? Like, I'm talking about dinner or what our plans were, and I was attending to him. But I wasn't doing it with warmth. I wasn't doing it with emotional care. And he wasn't enjoying it. This is perhaps the thing that we're very much, I don't know if you found this in your research, but just in the polyvagal language around the neuroception, we're constantly feeling those around us, our most closest members. Our nervous system, we're picking up on all those cues—body language, the micro facial expressions, tone of voice, prosody of voice. So that's very quickly noticeable.

So true. You mentioned micro-expressions. Before we start the recording, we talked about, we will go where the conversation goes. So this is one of those moments, stop me if you feel like it's not as relevant. But I feel like, nowadays with all of this Botox that is out there, and there is research that is coming out between infants and mothers, that infants of the mothers who use too much of it, they don't have those micro-expressions. They're not actually very good in reading the facial cues anymore. The first time that this came up for me was, we are reading each other all the time constantly. Am I safe? Are you angry? What is happening? Are you smiling? I use that for my frown line, so no judgment for people who do. No judgment. But when you do it too much, I just want people to be aware.

Because I had clients, I remember the first interaction that I had. I had a couple that the guy in the relationship—this was a heterosexual couple later on in life, like in their 60s—wouldn't take her seriously. There was an issue, and she wanted to have him understand that this is really not appropriate. But he kept doing it, something that he was doing. She kept saying, why don't you take me seriously? I'm really angry at you. But with this face, no affect. This is 18 years ago, maybe 19 years ago, Botox was not a thing. I didn't certainly know about it. Maybe I was younger, I don't know. I didn't know about it. Then as I'm looking at her, I'm like, what am I diagnosing her with? She has no affect. What is happening?

Then it occurred to me. So in one of the individual sessions, because some people don't like to disclose to the other person, I asked her. I said, did you do anything here? This is not moving. So you're sitting there saying, I'm bursting with anger, I'm so angry! Like, within the normal range, facial expression would be, you see some lines, some coming of the face together, something. But you just sit there and say, I'm so angry. I don't know if I would take you seriously. So I came up with this idea, which is actually in the book now, but I said: Look, when you want to really make a point about whatever, why don't we use a scale? So you can just say: Hey, on a scale of 1 to 10, this is really bothering me 10 out of 10. Can you please stop? So we need to get creative with whatever we do. We can't just operate from the place that we've been, while we're minusing this piece.

Exactly, I'm so glad you brought that in. I have been really curious. I've noticed in session, clients that have not had a lot of affect, and it occurred to me later. I was like, oh okay. That's probably a part of this, just the Botox and just how that might interfere with the actual communication. Because what people say is, 80% plus of communication is nonverbal, and that a lot of our connection is we're picking up information as it relates to emotion. That's how we're experiencing relationship and information about others, is the emotion, and we get that through these cues, like you're saying. So to have other tools to be able to describe. I still think there's something missing, but I also know we've got to work with what we have. So to be able to offer more there.

I think still, even when we look at cultural differences, people negotiating bicultural, if they come from different cultures, I think some of this is also important to be able to be specific about what it means and why it matters. I think that creates a lot more intentionality. It's sometimes a little bit more effort to unpack that all. And if we're really talking about meeting the mark, if we're putting in effort, that we're really binding each other and hitting the mark, that's worth it. That's the end goal for most of us, or the longing, or long-term goal, is to be able to have a connection that we're nurturing, and to experience that love.

Absolutely, it's really worth it. Beyond the neurophysiology, beyond the impact on our health and longevity, on a daily basis. That's why I say, creating world peace, one relationship at a time. This is not just an aspiration for me, I've seen it done, that when you feel that you have your person, however you define them within these eight configurations that we found, for example. Some people get married, some people don't. Some people decide to have an agreement to build a house together, and now they're a couple, but they have nothing else shared. So there are so many different ways.

So we can't really ignore it. I was listening to one of your podcasts recently. I forget the name of your guest, but she was talking about how she started working with children, and then she noticed that if you really want to help children, you need to help the relational spaces around them. That's how she transformed her work into working with adults.

Yes, it's so true. I mean, yes, we could go on and on about how it affects our health and our nervous system, our sense of resilience and ability to be in the world, feel more resourced. It is extensive, the benefit of having connection that feels safe, supportive, and secure. Often, this can show up as intimate relationship, but it can show up in many other forms that you're giving lots of range for. So coming back to your model, with the key ingredients, would you say that some mean more to others? Or is it during particular phases in life, like it might change depending on life circumstances? Or are you seeing this as they're all equally important and that we want to be attending to all of them?

I really appreciate the question. Really, really appreciate the question. So to answer your first question, all six of them, they have to be present, non-negotiable. However, the reason I call them ingredients is because, one day you would like more compassion, one season of life. You just had a baby, you just lost a job, you just lost a parent, whatever that is happening. One day you need one season of life, or one day you need more compassion, you need maybe more respect, more loving. So with the ingredients, as long as they are giving you the end product, which is that cozy fire, emergent love, then that's fine. You're good. But putting one above the other is not going to help. In some relationships, for example, when you see a lot of power discrepancy, you will see that people do all sorts of crazy things under the name of: Oh, be more compassionate. Or for example, they say, you need to respect me. But then by respect, it means abide by everything I say, obey me. So these are the things that we need to be careful about, how we describe them, and also how we bring them into the different seasons of especially long-term relationships.

So it sounds like, with your check-in and checkups, that this can be something that is really explicit, and that people can be in touch with and checking in with themselves around and checking in with the other, how are we doing with this? Is that right?

Yes. The only thing that I would say, yes absolutely, we need to have a check-in. So for example, the minimum is, I'm actually stunned by the number of people that don't even say hello to each other when they wake up in the morning. That's rude, to begin with. Then, second: Oh, I'm just not a morning person. I don't care, say hello. I was just angry at him and then I went to bed, I'm not saying anything. You can still say it. Say it in an angry voice, but say it. Goodnight, going to bed. There are certain things that are non-negotiable in human relationships. Like in business school, the first thing that they teach you is how to say hello. Well, nowadays after pandemic, there are so many different ways to do this thingy and also across cultures. And then how to say goodbye.

So even with every touch, there is a beginning, middle, and end. So a lot of people come to me and they say: Oh, I've lost my sexual desire for my partner. Okay, let's talk about the way that you interact with each other. Then I realize that maybe they're holding hands. As simple as this. They're holding hand down the street, and then one of them feels hot or sweaty or wants to scratch their nose, whatever. They just let go. Squeeze. Just a little squeeze. I'm going to let go now. So there are certain things that we can do in a subtle manner, which make huge difference. Another thing that I find is, so many people talk too much about their relationships and they forget to be in it. That's another issue we have.

Say more, if you will. These examples are so helpful. Because concepts people can resonate with. But when you put it into action and how important and what it represents, and I love that you're not ambiguous. I tend to live in the gray and I give a lot of room for possibilities, and you're very decisive, and I love it. Like, this is non-negotiable. Just the impact of it, to really be clear around how we're nurturing the relationship, and that there's some real respect here.

Right. But I have to say something about that, Dr. Jessica. What actually draws me to your work was that. Because I felt like this is not a person who feels like, relationships, this is a certain way to do it. So I just want to highlight that, that I love that about you. Because you really have a lot of respect for people's way of being and owning it, and delegating people to come up with it, with gentle instructions. On the other side of it, I agree with you, there are certain things that we can be more lenient about or give people that gray area. Because we live in gray area, there's no black or white. But when it comes to the heartbreaks that I've seen my clients and people experience, because now I have solid evidence, I just have to be very straightforward, put my foot down and say: Hey, this is something that I want you to consider and consider seriously. Because there is a better way. So that's where it's coming from.

Well, and it's important, and what people do with it will be what they do with it. But to have the recommendation, coming from a place of very being informed or an expert, that they can take that with a level of merit. Also, not everyone's been exposed to the consideration that you're describing. People can get into this automatic way of being and think that it's okay or that it doesn't really matter. Just this gentle squeeze, to be truthful, I don't do that. I'm like, that would be lovely to incorporate that. If I'm hot and we're holding hands, I'll let go. But I'm like: Oh, I want to do that. I want to squeeze and let him know. Because these things matter. These subtleties, cumulatively, really have a lot of potency.

Conversely, I remember when we first started dating, and I had some people that were talking to me and he wasn't sure if he should leave. Like, people were approaching me and I was having a conversation, but I grabbed his hand. I wanted him to know I'm still with you, and I'm going to just finish this conversation. He remarked later how much that meant to him. So it's like, these things have a lot of power.

Yes, just the little things. A lot of my couples get into fight when they go to parties, for example, or they have a social gathering. So I came up with this idea of the social etiquette for a couple. So how to check with each other? Like, if you are in a conversation, just turn around slightly, ever so slightly, and then put your hand behind the other person. Or include them: Hey, there's room for you here too, I'm not just shutting the door. Just subtle. You know, here’s why that matters. 

Then they end up in our offices, the couples end up in our offices, feeling like: Well, I don't know why, but I'm not as attracted anymore, I don't desire my partner anymore. I've seen that with parents too. Oh, it's just a teenager thing, they shut me out. No, I'm so sorry, you lost the connection long before they became a teenager. So it's a very interesting space to be in. We talk about everything. But what are we talking about, what is the content?

Yes. I'm reminded, just this week I had, I used to work with them as a couple, and the wife reached out to me. They just had a little one. She has known this about her husband, he loves her beyond loving her. He is super devoted and very intelligent. And this very thing, when they're at a social gathering, he's probably a little bit more extroverted. To your earlier point, the differences in personality. Probably gets a lot of energy from being with other people and talking. She's more introverted and wanting that stability. Nonetheless, just having had a baby, she was hoping that he would be more considerate, was her language. And when she went out, there was a fire pit, and several of the other men offered their spot to her and he didn't. I mean, they're very small things. But this is huge impact. There's several examples that she has, but that was one of them. Or giving a compliment. She's like, I feel like I did a really good job being pregnant, being healthy, and I don't think I ever remember one compliment. Obviously these things mean different things, everybody's got a different preference and feels loved in different ways. But it's incredibly important.

Yeah, I agree with you. On that note, I want for people to pay attention, for your beautiful listeners or whoever that's exposed to our content today. I want people to really learn deeply about their love blueprint. All of us have a blueprint, meaning the impressions that we are carrying. Who was loving? What was love? What was the word used? Again, coming from different cultural exposures myself, it always amazes me. The word love, being in love, differences across languages. What do people actually mean by those? What are the nuances? So when we were growing up, and also the literature that we were exposed to might be different than the country that we live in now. For example, mwah. Like, me included. Or for example, the person that we chose to share this loving sphere with, loving space with.

So what does that love mean? The whole analogies that I use throughout the book, that's why I say by design. So the blueprint is something that engineers come up with and then make sure, that's the blueprint. It doesn't mean that it comes to fruition for sure. But that is going to inform the process, for sure. So that piece of it, I want people to know their love blueprint. How did it change over time, over different relationships that they experienced? One of my clients the other day was telling me, I was hardened by the lack of trust that my partner had for me in the previous relationship. So you are going to carry that crust with you, that hardened piece of you, into the next relationship. You need to know that. So one other thing that I tell people that they need to definitely know about themselves is their quirks, pet peeves, and sensitivities. These are the things that you need to think about deeply and share annually with one another.

I love the language around that. It makes it so accessible. Because it's not like, our wounds or our traumas. I mean, that might be a part of the mix. But it's quirks, pet peeves, and sensitivities. It's just this recognition. Do you want to say a little bit more about an example or what that might look like?

Sure. Quirk is, for example, I'm a mummer. I hum all the time. So that's my quirk. So if you ask somebody close to me and say, what is Sara's quirk? Sara is always humming her favorite songs. That's really cute, especially at the beginning of a relationship. Over a period of time, that might become a pet peeve for somebody around me. It could be a roommate, it could be a friend, my husband, my child. So pet peeves are the ones that send a tickle down your spine. It's not only towards your partner. It could be somebody's chewing with their mouth open. Really, I invite people to think about their five senses and the energy around them, and what is it that tickles them in the wrong way? That's a pet peeve.

Then, quirks are usually cute. Usually we are not aware of them. So one of the exercises I give to my clients is to go out and ask people, do you know of any of my quirks? They are amazed, because they come back, and this is the most difficult part for them to identify about themselves. So quirks, pet peeves, and then moving forward from it, the sensitivities. 

Sensitivities are a little bit of a bruise, a chip on the shoulder, something that we carry from before. Maybe for example, respect is not a big deal for you, but maybe it is for me. Maybe injustice is not a big deal for you, but it is for me. So when you know all of those about you in a space of a relationship, then you don't question the person or yourself or your sanity. Like, oh, the average person shouldn't be bothered by it. Yeah, but you have a bruise that has been poked. You need to know that by yourself. So when people ask me, especially people who are dating and also in long-term relationships, what is the work that we need to do before the relationship or to go to the next stage of our relationship, make it more thriving? This is the groundwork that I want people to do to get to know themselves.

It's so helpful to be able to approach our new relationships in saying: Here's what I know about myself, or here's a tendency something I'm working on, but also to make it visible. Typically then the partner in response could be feeling a little bit more of that compassion. Also, empathy and desire to help. Rather than getting into, you shouldn't do that, or this right or wrong about it. It just is part of what I've experienced and have some tenderness around.

Exactly.

Oh, we could keep going and going. I feel so grateful for your wealth of knowledge and how you've made this so practical. Share a little bit, tell us the name of your book again.

Oh, it's Love by Design: Six Ingredients to Build A Lifetime of Love.

Excellent. I'll put the link on today's show notes. Is there anything else you want to direct people towards, a website or any other resources, social media, ways you want to invite people to connect with you?

Sure. I usually say I'm all over the place, but it depends where they would like to find their information. So I am on Instagram under DrSaraNasserzadeh, so there I am more engaged and involved. I do everything on my own. I mean, the engagement, everything is mwah, so you don't get like an assistant helping you. I have people helping me beautify it, but the whole control is with me. Because over a period of years, I learned that people share personal narratives or comments or DMs, and I wanted to be there, just the reciprocity of that trust that they have. Then, I have one bimonthly newsletter that's called The Common Ground by Dr. Sara, on Substack. That is the one that I pick a topic. I go from literacy to fluency on one specific topic. Then yeah, my website also is Sara-Nasserzadeh.com.

Wonderful. I'll put the link to your book, your Instagram, your Substack, and your website on today's show. Thank you so much for being with us and sharing all that you've shared.

Thank you kindly for your warm hospitality and this enjoyable conversation. Thank you.