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This episode marks an incredible milestone—the 500th episode of the Empowered Relationship Podcast. To celebrate, Dr. Jessica Higgins and her husband, Reid Peterson, sit down for a heartfelt and revealing conversation about what it really takes to cultivate a truly empowered partnership.

If you’ve ever wondered why, despite your best intentions, emotional honesty and vulnerability can feel so risky—or why differences and conflict so often create distance instead of closeness—you’re not alone. The path to authentic connection is filled with challenges that test even the strongest relationships.

In this special episode, Jessica and Reid open up about the principles and practices that have helped them build a foundation of trust, love, and growth throughout their years together. They share personal stories, practical strategies, and honest reflections on navigating tough conversations, supporting each other’s emotional needs, and finding clarity in uncertain times.

Whether you’re learning to handle conflict, embrace vulnerability, or co-create a meaningful vision for your life together, you’ll discover insights and tools to transform relationship challenges into opportunities for deeper connection and lasting love.

Episode Highlights

04:58 Building safety and trust through honesty in partnership.

09:15 Jessica shares how vulnerability early in dating deepened their intimacy.

11:47 How honest conversations help reduce shame and strengthen connection.

14:11 How different personalities shape communication in relationships.

19:52 Strategies to navigate conflict with calm and empathy.

35:51 Building clarity, connection, and purpose through joint visioning.

44:08 Strengthening relationships through further exploration and resources.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

• Practice speaking honestly about your core feelings, emotions, and needs—even when it feels risky or uncomfortable.
• Pause during moments of tension to take a few deep breaths, center yourself, and check in with what you’re feeling before responding.
• When conflict arises, communicate the need for space calmly and agree on a time to revisit the discussion to avoid sweeping issues under the rug.
• Seek reassurance or a quick check-in from your partner during periods of disconnection to help reduce anxiety and foster trust.
• Cultivate attuned listening—focus on truly understanding what your partner is expressing beyond the words, and ask clarifying questions when needed.
• Name whether you’re seeking comfort or solutions in conversations, so your partner knows how best to support you.
• Regularly engage in shared visioning exercises together to clarify mutual values and dreams, and support each other in the process—even when values differ.
• Download and use the “12 Relationship Principles to Strengthen Your Love” guide to gain clarity and practical strategies for your relationship.

Mentioned

12 Relationship Principles to Strengthen Your Love (free relationship guide) (pdf)

Relational Health Assessment (quiz)

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

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LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

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Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like it to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Today I'm joined with Reid Peterson, and we're going to be sharing an intimate conversation as we reflect on a couple of these relationship skills, things that we do our best to practice, some of which we've struggled with, and some of which we've felt some growth and development in. And Reid, if I can share a little bit about you for people who are listening. You have an undergrad in education. You were also a massage therapist in Minneapolis, Minnesota. You have a master's degree in psychology. You also have grief certification and grief companioning. 

You're an entrepreneur, and you are also in the field of leadership training and development, and the private sector. Is there anything you want to add to that? 

I think I'm a good husband. 

Very much true. I again just want to reiterate. 

Add that to the resume. 

Yes. Great husband. Let's improve that. On that note, you are traveling right now. You're in Florida, Naples, Florida, and you have a busy work week. And I asked you just a couple of days ago if you would be willing to do this with me, and you said yes. And you're showing up here. So that's a total demonstration. So thank you. 

Well, you're most welcome, and I'm honored. I want to celebrate with you. 500 podcast episodes are incredible. And everyone is listening. These are all original episodes. So Congratulations to you, Dr. Jessica. 

Call me Jessica. Yes, thank you. Well, let's dive in. I know you don't have a ton of time, given that you're three hours ahead of me, and I kind of pitched a couple of the categories that we could dive into. 

So what I'm picking about is honesty. When Jessica and I got married, some of our vows included kind of like

 But what we agreed upon at that time, and here we are, 13 plus years later of marriage at the time of this recording, is that honesty still is so crucial and yet foundational in the success of our relationship, our bond, our marriage, our whole partnership. Everything involved in us is fundamentally built on honesty and has led. 

Which builds trust. 

Yeah. And led to the development of trust and deepened our love for each other. So I just feel called to that. That's where we start. 

Yes. Well, to just add on to what you're saying, just as a principle, my understanding of honesty is speaking the underlying core feelings, emotions, and needs. And oftentimes that's not easy to get at. As I was reflecting on that category before we started our interview. So there's an episode I'll reference. She's a conflict resolution expert, and she wrote a book, and she was talking about how people typically lead with strategy or what they want or what their ideas are. And she gave me some feedback in the interview. I don't think I've told you this, but if we're getting into someone else's space and talking about them, which I talk about a lot.

But even giving feedback around how someone's communicating, which I do to you, I try to manage that. 

But she was saying if we can just really purely state what our need is or our interest is, that helps cultivate or facilitate this more honest, vulnerable dialogue. 

Indeed. Yeah. I was hoping you would say vulnerable, because that's, I think, from my own personal experience, I think that, 

And in those difficult moments, I can speak only for myself. As far as, like, what I feel somatically, where it's like, there's some kind of resistance there. And for me, it's kind of like a tightening. Tightening of my chest, my shoulders, my neck, and I guess, the upper portion of my torso. And now that I think about it, Jess, that actually probably makes me hold my breath a little bit more. But there's a release in that. And when I am honest, and it opens up a vulnerability, and it opens up truthfully, at times, it's uncomfortable. 

But also, there is an experience of relief in it, too, because, well, you're still there. You know, if I've said something that I haven't fully felt the most comfortable sharing, and I see that you're responding to it well, then, you know what. What an amazing thing to be able to have that experience. And then the other thing is that it just feels. Well, you use the word a lot in our conversations. It creates a strong sense of safety. 

Absolutely. Yes. I have a couple of stories that come to mind where, for me, 

And, yeah, I will agree with you that when I've taken those risks, I can't think of a time when you've turned away. Thank goodness. And also, just as you talk about the safety that gets built in, that is tremendous. I will also say, individually, I also feel that I'm having my own back. So it's this sense of I'm taking a risk to not hide or conceal. I'm showing up with what's true for me. So I have a couple of examples. Do you have any story that comes to mind that you want to share? 

No. Let's start with yours, please. 

Okay. Well, I have one that was. I've referenced it on the show many times. I don't know if you recall. It was early in our dating, this was probably 2006, and we teased that initially I had a difficult time reading your external cues, and I felt some level of insecurity around you were as interested in a more serious relationship. And I was into you, and I was contending with that. It took me a little while to approach you and reveal this, but at the time, I was deeply committed. I had a pretty intense relationship that dissolved in a lot of conflict, and spent like a year and a half single, and was practicing a lot of these principles, as Gay Hendricks and Katie Hendricks would call like a Sweaty 10-minute conversation. 

And I was recognizing, I'm scared you're not as into me as I am into you. And the grief of the possibility of that, yes, that was anticipatory, but also that was a potential risk. And I remember, I don't exactly remember the situation, but I remember telling you, and it's not what we typically hear in the dating recommendations around how to be sexy or how to be compelling or be alluring or mysterious. And I really laid it out there. And you viscerally, I don't remember what you said, but you leaned in and you really responded. And it was both really healing for me to show that. But it was also, I think, a step in our intimacy. 

You rolled the dice. 

I did. 

And we're thought to be even a gambling woman. 

I'm not, you know, I. Sorry. On a side note, I didn't anticipate crying, but of course I should have. But stay with me. 

Of course. Yeah, always. We'll always stay with you. I think that ties into three key concepts. Stick with me as we talk about this with honesty, that's how 

Because when I think of moments where I've wanted to say something that I felt was true or strong, and in my case had wondered if it was going to hurt you, that's where, like the withholding of it or something like that, has created some shame for me. But with your experience, Jess, when you said the things that were risky and were vulnerable to you, they're such gifts for me because what they are is basically heart openings. You know, I can go into all the conditioning details that prevent me from being, you know, in a vulnerable space more often. 

So if you meet me with softness and we've communicated as far as how to approach each other with softness and share I statements with our vulnerabilities, it's a natural tendency for my heart to want to respond as opposed to my head. My head's trying to protect me, being defensive, trying to be right. And my heart just wants to love. And so it's a great invitation is what it is when you share those vulnerable, honest moments. 

Thank you. One other thing I'll mention is my tendency to verbalize and articulate, and tell stories. I think that can sometimes delude the real, I think core. And it really only is a couple of sentences that's needed. I actually have another example that was just not even a month ago, when we were in Banff. It was after our hiking trip had concluded, and we were having a leisurely morning and an opportunity for more closeness and intimacy. And I was really recognizing inside myself just some holding and some insecurity. And I remember speaking to you, like, I think there's a part of me that feels like I have to earn love or something. And you allowed me to cry and just held me. And it was. I don't know that you even really needed to say a whole lie. I think just your comfort. 

And I think perhaps I was looking for some reassurance. I think I might have prompted. Well, if it's true for you, can you tell me something about my worthiness or something? And you were really responsive. And I don't even think we needed to have a big conversation about it. I think it was really healing just to have that holding and being seen. And again, for me to just acknowledge that and make that conscious. Like, so often I feel like these layers of protection I'm not even aware of, or we're not typically, as humans, very aware of. And so our protective strategies are usually running the show. 

Yeah, that was a very special moment and it was very healing for me, too, to what felt like sit with probably were embracing each other. So there's a lot of physical holding, and you were expressing insecurity at that time. And I knew
can start to work to attune to

So it was even a little bit vulnerable for me to sit in that space together. And it ended up. I agree. It ended up feeling extremely healing, extremely powerful.  And, you know, I recognize that it took a lot of courage for you to share that. At that moment, you felt a lot of insecurity. And so I remember thinking in my head, Jess, when you shared that, I thought, she's really trusting me here.

And I need to show up for that. Yeah, yeah, that was a special moment. And that was after six or seven days straight of hiking, like more than six and a half, seven miles a day. Maybe we're both physically exhausted. 

Well, I think that was part of my hesitation is that we were having this amazing trip, and I was like, Ugh, I'm feeling these feelings. It can feel like, oh, I'm bringing the energy down, and I'm grateful I was able to take that risk. And I think our history and, you know, trusting you to be a safe space helped. And also it's still scary, so. 

Yeah, still very scary. 

Yeah, I guess for people listening, often, again, we want to be persuasive and articulate, typically, or demonstrate that some people are more verbal than others. And, you know, we have this difference in our dynamic. Some people might show it and communicate more nonverbally about discontent or unhappiness. And it's really hard for the partner to decode that and really get to that underlying, real core, beautiful vulnerability. And so the more that we can assist in making that visible, it's helpful, but it's also probably the hardest work.     

It is. Yeah. Well, for me, I don't have a specific story about honesty, but I feel like almost every time, it's probably 99.9% where I tend to be less verbal than Jessica, and words of affirmation are a strong love language of hers, whereas for me, it's not. And so I'm an internalizer kind of by personality. Also, maybe a little bit of conditioning, you know, that's up for debate, but that's a whole other podcast. And so when there are these times that I do feel like I need to say something and then be honest, like, it's always for me, truthfully, I don't feel as much risk in the experience. You're extremely skilled in relationships, so I'm very lucky as your partner in that regard. 

But also, I know and I believe and I trust you know, 150% that you have our relationship, our bond, in your best interest. And so that's why it doesn't feel as risky for me. But still, there's always an element of, well, I guess it is risk, where 

And, you know, it's been a growth process for me to say, like, probably every time conclude like, no, this is worth it for us. This, you know, I think of the term, short-term pain, long-term gain. 

Yeah. 

You know, that kind of cliche term, but it's true. It. It really is true. Where I'm like, hey, if I don't say this, like, something's gonna be off in our connection, you know, things could stack up or layer, cause even bigger problems. But if I do be honest and I do share, I recognize it ends up being more of a healing process for myself and for us. And that's what comes up for me when I think of honesty as a skill or a principle in a relationship. 

Yeah. Thank you. And I will say, just for the personality differences, I think that poses a challenge. Sometimes, if I'm in my head or I'm wanting to communicate my perspective, I might not be as tuned in or as attuned to what you're trying to express. And I think that can be challenging and has been challenging. Okay, well, let's move on to another one again. Well, I said oftentimes when there's a difference, it can feel like a conflict, or we might have different ideas around what should be done or different strategies around how we might approach a particular situation. And when those differences emerge, we're not on the same page. So it doesn't feel easy. That can feel like a conflict. And when things matter, typically people will feel attached to that. 

They'll start to feel maybe even threatened or feel tight as you described, feeling a little bit more defensive or armored up. And especially when there isn't the ability to really slow down and hear one another, or as we've been just sharing, speaking about the deeper need. Sometimes we lead with strategy, we lead with our ideas, and then we spend a lot of time discussing or debating, or even arguing about what's the right thing to do. And then when we look at de-escalation or escalation, sometimes things get to a certain point where it feels like we've turned a corner and nothing productive is going to happen. And what happens then? And typically, we want to catch that before it reaches that threshold, when it does reach that threshold, and the interest is no longer to resolve it. 

Spend at least 20 minutes taking a break. And then for the one that tech typically wants to resolve, or the one that wants to move on or keep processing, having some point in time that there's an Agreement of we're going to revisit or just check in around. Are we available to revisit this? That typically helps for the one who might feel worried that we're just going to sweep this under the rug and we're not going to address it. That can be difficult. 

I think it's so easy to want to do that, forget about it, or whatever. You know, I can say that in our relationship, I sometimes do that. It's a simpler solution. I've had a long day of work. I don't have the energy, I'm hungry, grumpy, all of the above. But, gosh, I mean, you articulated it really well. I'm trying to think of, like, a specific example I think you've shared with listeners of your empowering relationship. Podcasts that were more, at the time of this recording were more relevant to homeowners. So a lot of, you know, some levels have been conflict, and some levels it's been almost conflict, but, you know, an insider secret to listening is that both Jessica and Reid are headstrong. And so when. When we talk about, like, what we want to do with our house to make it more our space, right? 

It's a bit of a remodel project, fortunately, not structurally as much, but. But there's a lot to do for the house as well. As every new owner encounters that. So we get ideas and then we share ideas, and one of us may be really excited about our ideas, and the other doesn't receive it so well. And then we have a little bit, truthfully, we have a little bit different perspective about, like, how to finance some of these projects and stuff like that. So there are moments of tension and there are moments of conflict, and I guess we have argued a few times, and it hasn't been the most pleasing. One thing I really want to thank you for, Jess, is that you say yes if I share with you. I need to go cool off. Right. 

You know, I reckon I get to a moment where I feel pretty angry or very impatient, and I'm like, yes, I want to resolve this, but at the same time, I don't think I can just talk it through right now to resolve it and heal and grow from the experience. So I may need a couple of hours, or I may need a day. And I really want to honor you for respecting that because I believe that in our dynamic, our partnership has helped tremendously. It's helped on so many different levels. So, you know, if you want a more specific example, I can provide one, but I feel like that's great. 

Illustration, and I want to just underscore when you said, I want to resolve this, that means everything to me. Where I think in early in our relationship, I was like, even though we were very committed or even married, like sometimes when it looked like on the outside that you were distancing, but internally you were taking the time you needed to get clear or ground or what was important for you. But I didn't know that in my projections, my fears, my insecurities of are we okay? Does he still want to resolve this? Like, I didn't know. I remember when we were going to visit Jennifer and Jorge and their family when they lived in Simi Valley. And I don't even remember what our tension or heated issue was. And I remember asking you, Can you just remind me, or tell me that you want to resolve this? 

And you softened and you were like, Of course I do, but I had no idea. And it meant everything for me to be able to tolerate the discomfort of not resolving it and not repairing it and trusting, and obviously being. I mean, we've been together almost 20 years now. And so I feel very much in service of what, as you said, the long-term gain is when you are more open or are clearer and can share with me. I'd much rather have that than my need to press on and you white knuckle it to somehow give me something to work with. Just don't think that's been all that productive for us. 

True. Yeah. So I got a question about this skill. The question centers around, like we've grown in this skill we've developed, and so now there is more trust. Well, at least on my end, you're quick, you're ready to resolve at any time we have a conflict. I feel like I've learned that about you, and sometimes I need a little bit more time. So I feel like you trust that to be a reality. Right. It's not just a wish or something you're hopeful about. It's something that you know will happen, at least in our dynamics. So the question centers around, like, well, it's two questions. Okay, is it, since you're such a relationship expert, is it fair to assume that's okay, like for people to trust that, you know, somebody on one end, if they need some time, they'll circle back. 

That's a great question. I would say this in a lot of ways could be described by the attachment research, that when we have earned through time, through experiences, the lived, felt, embodied practice of turning towards one another and having that repair, that helps build trust. So for me, having abandonment issues in my past, that probably contributed to a lot of this underlying fear I needed to earn. I wasn't quite confident right from the beginning. I was telling you I was worried you weren't in. And so through our interactions and your leaning in, my leaning in, repairing us, processing, getting to more collaboration, and hopefully showing up for one another, that's helped me build the trust. And I want that so much more than my preferred style. 

So generally, what I advise, that it's like a good strategy to just 

Yes, but the caveat would be if there's positive productive engagement afterwards, like there's effort, but if the person's just turning away and not ever coming back or not ever responding, then I would be cautious about investing a lot of energy. When someone's not willing to participate in collaboration or resolution, does that answer? Was that what you're asking? 

Yeah, that hits it. And then the second question is that knowing if someone needed more time, we'll use you and me, for example. You know, there's been a conflict, the high tension, high stress, and you're ready to resolve and I'm not. And I will respond when I'm ready, maybe more time than what you're comfortable with. And so the question around that is like, what would you recommend for someone in your situation to help you feel, well, secure, to help you feel safe and trusting in those in that gap of time? Because I'm willing to bet that people listening experience this. Like, you know, they're not saying it's fully one or the other, but a lot of people might be in similar positions. 

Right. It's a great question. I think that there are several levers to this. I feel like there would be an assessment of, like, the health of the dynamic in general, the relationship in general, that would be worth acknowledging also. Is the person, like, the health of that person, the health of like, are there addiction issues? Are there affairs? Are there other things that are happening that contribute to more of a toxic dynamic? And I wouldn't recommend someone just hanging out, waiting, when there are these other variables at play. If all of those assessment questions or litmus questions are like, yes, it's worth it. I do think that there's an opportunity for growth, and I like to use myself. And I will say I don't know that this would be my overall recommendation in general. 

But let me just describe for you the times in which you've wanted more time than I've been comfortable with. There are times when I've needed to just seek reassurance, like a check in with you around, you still want to resolve this, like just making, not making sure it's not. I mean, it sounds like the attempt to make sure, but there's some reassurance that I'm seeking. If you can give me some reassurance that gives me something to work with, that helps me tolerate that gap. And then also it's a great opportunity for me to focus on my own stability, my own needs, and my own differentiation, like the ability to hold onto myself, self, soothe, tolerate that discomfort, focus on my self-care. And that's been really helpful. And then also the need for connection doesn't go away. 

So I think that just checking in with you, like you still want to resolve this or you still are invested in us or you know, those type of questions helps me. And it's hard to be patient. The last thing I'll say is having a commitment that serves as a container when things are not the way that you would want them to go, or it feels like you're hitting a really big bump in the road. It's hard to stay right. It's hard to stay in that place. And so having that commitment, being in service of the longer term, it does offer some guidance, and I think some container to weather that heat and that difficulty because there's so much uncertainty. Like, we're talking positively about these things. We've. I mean, we're also talking about challenges that we don't know, and that's hard to tolerate. 

I mean, you could probably speak to this from a grief perspective, but I would say those are some of the components, like making sure it's a healthy dynamic, and then, you know, still maintaining some contact to have some stability, and then doing the individual work to stabilize. 

Yeah, it's definitely not easy. I guess mindfulness comes to mind as far as the practice or a skill to implement. 

Will you say more about that? 

Well, I think it's too easy to be on autopilot and go towards coping mechanisms that are a little bit more conditioned. You know, they've provided safety in the past, but in these moments, they most likely are not going to provide as much safety.

So the mindfulness piece means being able to, I don't know, turn that volume up on that self-awareness so that you're like, okay, this is what's going on. And take a step outside of what's happening inside of me, reactively perceive how I'm reacting. I don't know if I'm getting too meta here. 

No, you've been a great influence in having a voice for that. Because I have a tendency to want to figure things out. And being in the unknown and being with the present experience, you've really done a lot to bring awareness to that, right? 

Yeah. So a lot of, you know, the one-word answer is now. Okay, what's happening now? All right. This is asking for self again. What's happening now? Yeah, I think anxiety can really take over in some of those uncertain moments. Yeah. 

High stakes. 

High stakes. Yeah. 

All right. So attuned listening and empathy. Oftentimes, when we are in an exchange, we're hearing, and often when we are moving quickly, the partner that's speaking is typically describing the situation, and the partner that's listening often will experience or describe it very differently. And that in and of itself can get people off track. And this is where kind of the criticism or defensiveness can show up, that sometimes we might lead with a complaint, we might lead with the issue in hopes that our partner will be able to decode that and understand what our need is. So when we can do our best. I often have referred to this as a ninja move, where we can. 

And also aikido, where if somebody, our partner, is talking, that if we can get really interested in what is underneath the description, even if perhaps I would take issue with it or describe it differently, or I think I've even said to you at times, I would not have used those words or have not describe it in that way. And also to stay with you to try to understand, well, what does this mean to you? What does this matter? What's the significance? Typically, I can feel empathy for the ladder. Time and time I get defensive and want to describe how I see it differently. So to be able to have that attuned listening and the person that's feeling attuned to it's typically one of the biggest gifts we can give someone, is that really feeling seen and heard deeply. 

And typically, that takes time to allow the understanding and the opening to access deep understanding. 

A lot was said there. Let's unpack it. 

All right. Do you have any stories? I have one. 

Well, a lot of times, because we're in. We have such an intimate connection. 

At least for me and in our relationship, because of that. The moment I tell myself, in the cases that it's not a read narrative or a us narrative, when I remind myself that, then I'm like, I'm so much more available. I'm so much more available as a listener, as a supporter, one to empathize.  

You know, I also, in my day job, you know, I think of solutions all the time and stuff like that, and it's so easy to have that mindset. So when we talk and, you know, there is again, a moment where I'm like, oh, okay, it's not really about trying to solve a problem. It's. It's about being a loving, supportive listener, partner. You know, it's like, what a relief. What a gift. What a joy. And also, it helps, really helps me feel a lot more human. 

No kidding. I remember there was a period of time where you were really wanting to implement the question for either one of us, for it to be named, Are you wanting comfort or are you wanting solutions? And there were many times where you asked me, and I was like, I don't even know what I want. I need to ask myself at the moment. And I was able to take a moment of pause and reflect on that, and it was really helpful. The other piece, I'll add, is seeking to understand that if we can really get curious and seek to understand, when you've asked me questions, is it like this or does it sound like that. Is that right? Or maybe I'm feeling this as you're describing. It's been so helpful, especially in times when I hadn't even named it myself. 

And I don't know that we always are able to do that in partnership, but that's really beautiful to feel your partner reflect and help you access something deeper, and really feel that being named, it's really important. 

Yeah, it's fun. Honestly, I find it fun. Like when those moments when I'm like, okay, let's not make it about me, and. And let's. Let's really be a caring and supportive partner. It's when I'm like, I'm. No, I'm. I'm not just a good husband. I'm a great husband. 

You're my great husband. Yes. Yes. 

Right? Yeah. It feels good. 

For the sake of time, I'm interested in maybe moving on to one more. Would you have time for one more? I know I'm skipping over a story, but I feel like it might be helpful. Would you rather do vision and shared meaning or playfulness and novelty? And again, there's a lot of description around these that I'm not mentioning here, but as themes. 

Well, you tell me, what do your listeners want more? 

You have such an intuitive sense. I think both are very important at this time. 

I think I could probably show up more to some of the visioning than I can. The playfulness and its. To be 150% honest, I just, it was a long day and I'm. I do feel tired, and so it is. Reed Reid has a difficult time being playful. When he's tired, he usually gets grumpy. So. So the vision is my choice. 

Okay, we'll wind this down here. I appreciate you just naming real time where you're at and where your capacity is. This really helps me support and attune to you. All right, so visioning and shared meaning. Oftentimes in life, and really I would say not oftentimes, we all have a life we're living, and there are certain things, values that mean something to us. There's a dream that we have, there's having purpose. And in relationships, sometimes again, that can pose a challenge or feel like a conflict if we haven't necessarily been explicit. Or how can we co-create a dream together? Sometimes there's a process that needs to occur to arrive at that. And there's so much to be said around that. 

But this can help orient people, decision-making, how to invest time, money, and energy, and help cultivate and create a life that is really authentic and meaningful. So, would you like any story that comes to mind or anything you want to add here? 

You may have shared this before in previous episodes, but we had a pretty close to a two-year journey of being in various places throughout the United States and were exploring new areas to live in, remaining open to the possibility. And why I'm sharing this, as far as an example or a story of visioning, is that throughout this journey were setting our criteria. So you kind of had what was logistical and practical in what I'm going to call the present moment. But we also held onto a vision of what would. The way I perceive it and the way I articulated it is that we were naming things that we wanted to exist well down the road, as you know, in addition to the now. It's like now and forever been forever being as. As long as we're gonna live. 

You know, I don't think I ever gave you enough credit for that because I felt like you led that process. You Know, we would sometimes it was like working through a journal written by someone else or pieces of a journal.

and you know, credit to her childhood best family friend and her family for being such a strong influence on Jessica for holding a vision and doing visioning exercises. And so, you know, we did them occasionally. It's not like we're doing them all the time. But in this two-year journey, we would do these exercises, and it would help us see the bigger picture. 

They would help us like at times, I don't know if it's true for you, but I, at times I felt a little stuck. If we did visioning, it's like, oh, this would help us get unstuck, this would free us up a little bit, be us, help us be a little bit more mobile, a little bit more free form or well, playful. And then, and then that brought us to, you know, where we are now. 

And like the beautiful thing, depending on how you look at it about visioning, is that it's always something you can add more to and you know, it's always something that can be, well, we live a journey or we take a journey in our life and this visioning can come along with us throughout the journey and help us like keep inspiration and help us stay joyful and, and well, some for some people it even helps them create a focus too. So I am getting a little philosophical. I'll digress there. 

No, I love everything you're saying and I. The thing that's coming up for me is when we have values that we keep fresh in our mind, then the vision and the creativity and the inspiration and the excitement that comes from how that can be expressed in any version that those things can be really aligned. And I think that's one of the things. To be more specific, all of our conversations we had a spreadsheet of what were ranking as priority. Is it beach life? Is it being by hot springs? Is it being in a naturally or a more conscious health and wellness community? Is it a smaller college town? Is it being by a large body of water? Is it living in a more temperate, warmer climate? There's a lot of things were evaluating and also visioning around. What's the expression of that? 

What would we love? How does that look? And sometimes we had different things and how we could support one another. So it's not always a seamless in couplehood or partnership, being lock and step or however you say that sometimes our partner might have a vision that feels really different, and then to understand what that core value is, or also how we might be able to have mutual benefit, or how it could be a win for both people. And again, I'll come back to the uncertainty. Sometimes it's not clear, we can feel stuck, and also just coming back to that mindfulness, and also where we feel excited or feel joy. Touche  thank you again that so much for carving out time in your evening. I know it's late there and it sounds like it's been a busy day. 

Yeah, thank you so much. It's been a joy.