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Are you letting anxiety and the need to play it safe hold you hostage in your relationships and personal growth? Too often, fear of rejection, failure, or the unknown becomes the invisible fence shaping our actions. Perfectionism, procrastination, overthinking, and the constant urge to avoid discomfort can shrink our lives, leaving us disconnected from our true selves and the people we care about most.

In this episode, we explore how fear influences perfectionism, anxiety, and avoidance in our relationships and daily lives. Discover compassionate approaches to working with anxiety—learning why fighting it doesn’t work, and how, instead, our willingness to acknowledge, understand, and even befriend discomfort can become a gateway to deeper connection and greater freedom. Through practical tools and real-world strategies like “uncertainty workouts,” values-based action, and self-compassion, this episode aims to help you navigate the messy, beautiful process of showing up more authentically for yourself and those you care about.

Dr. Patricia Zurita Ona is on a mission to help people break free from ineffective, play-it-safe patterns so they can begin living rich, purposeful, and meaningful lives. A trained psychologist, she is the author of seven books and co-author of two more. Her expertise has led her to present workshops at both national and international conferences. She also runs a boutique therapy and coaching practice that specializes in the application of Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (ACT) for anxiety. Passionate about her work, she delights in creating personalized resources for every client she serves.

Episode Highlights

06:03 The interconnectedness of anxiety and its impact on life.

09:07 The importance of accepting anxiety instead of fighting it.

10:02 Using values to guide responses and reduce anxiety control.

13:50 The need to tolerate discomfort in relationships.

18:53 Navigating fear of commitment and embracing uncertainty.

22:49 Building tolerance for ambiguity and uncertainty.

24:32 How avoiding uncomfortable emotions can increase suffering and relate to trauma and emotional regulation.

29:52 Values-based exposure and compassionate approaches to fear.

33:41 Developing micro skills for managing difficult conversations.

35:41 Integrating self-compassion and Wise Moves for anxiety management.

38:01 Practical resources, parenting insights, and closing reflections.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

• Take a moment to pause with a deep inhale and exhale, noticing sensations in your body before engaging in difficult conversations or when feeling anxious.
• Instead of fighting anxiety, recognize it as a protective part of your humanity and make room for it.
• When anxiety arises, ask yourself what truly matters to you in that moment to guide your response.
• Embrace uncomfortable feelings in relationships without avoidance, viewing them as essential for growth and authenticity.
• Intentionally expose yourself to uncertainty in small, manageable ways (like trying a new restaurant or activity) to build tolerance.
• When fear surfaces, actively choose actions that align with your core values—even if they feel difficult.
• Treat yourself with gentleness during moments of avoidance, procrastination, or anxiety, recognizing your effort and courage.
• When facing a fearful situation, pause and check in with your body and thoughts, then proceed with intentionality rather than rushing through.

Mentioned

The ACT Workbook for Teens with OCD (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Living Beyond OCD Using Acceptance and Commitment Therapy (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Escaping the Emotional Roller Coaster (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Parenting a Troubled Teen (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Acceptance and Commitment Therapy for Borderline Personality Disorder (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Acceptance and Commitment Skills for Perfectionism and High-Achieving Behaviors (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

The ACT Workbook for the Anxious Procrastinator (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Dr. Z’s Online Classes (link)

ERP 461: How to Increase Psychological Flexibility for Healthy Relationships — An Interview with Dr. Steven Hayes

ERP 238: How To Find Your Emotional Balance In a Relationship

12 Relationship Principles to Strengthen Your Love (free relationship guide) (pdf)

Connect with Patricia Zurita Ona

Websites: thisisdoctorz.com | eastbaybehaviortherapycenter.com

Facebook: facebook.com/EastBayBehaviorTherapyCenter | facebook.com/Dr-Z-102029237841421

X: twitter.com/DrZ_behaviorist

YouTube: linkedin.com/in/patricia-e-zurita-ona-psy-d-949b5a15

Instagram: instagram.com/dr.z.passionatebehaviorist

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Patricia, thank you for joining us. I'm excited about our conversation. 

Thank you so much for having me. And I'm super excited to chat with you. 

Yes, I know you have done so much to support people who are negotiating different experiences as it relates to overthinking or indecision, procrastination, perfectionism, and dealing with anxiety and how that might manifest. And can you say a little bit about how this became a focus for you? 

That's such a great question. Thank you so much for asking. The truth is that I travel in this life with my own anxieties. I don't think of myself as an anxious child or as an anxious teenager, but I was more in the midst of a dictatorship in my country, in Bolivia. So I understand very early how a group of people can be shaped by fear. I didn't witness violence firsthand. However, there were so many regulations about what was a law and what wasn't a law in a public setting. So that was my first experience seeing how fear shapes people's behaviors. And later on, I think, I don't recall now the exact age. Maybe I was 19 or 20 years old. I had my first panic attack when I was driving on the freeway. And my panic attack may have been maybe 45 seconds, one minute. 

For me, it felt like an eternity. Of course, in that moment when I had shortness of breath, I was hyperventilating. So that was a very specific experience with anxiety. And over the years, I see as I move in life, my anxieties also shift and they shape and they have a different color. Right. I have been afraid of failing many times. I had been afraid of saying the wrong thing at the wrong time to the wrong person. So I think it's on the one hand my experience dealing with anxiety and also in my personal life, of course, I have seen friends and clients in which anxiety can completely narrow their life and shape them to become someone they are not. And. And they stop living authentic lives. 

So I think all that has translated into being passionate about helping people get honest back from any type of anxiety. 

Oh, I so appreciate how you are seeing the interconnectedness. I definitely understand anxiety. And when we talk about even phobias, people tend to restrict their functioning in the world or where they go in an effort not to confront the fear. Right. If I'm afraid of snakes, I don't go on a hike, or if I don't, you know, whatever the fears are, I feel scared on a bridge, and I don't cross bridges, or, you know, it starts to then become really restricting. And then when we fast forward, this could even be agoraphobia, where I don't even leave the house, and those types of things. And as you look at perfectionism, indecision, procrastination, this constellation of tendencies, it sounds like you're seeing that as a cluster of things that relate to anxiety. Is that right? 

I think you got it right. It sounds a little bit like a cliche what I say, but it's not.

And our fears, you know, can sometimes be present in many settings, in many situations. So one of the things that happens with fear is exactly what you were saying. That narrows our behavioral repertoire. We stop doing less, and we start avoiding a lot. And because of that, I think we all played shaking life. There is no human being who doesn't play it safe. Right. 

We do all types of things to manage our fears, worries, and anxieties in the moment. The challenge is when we play it safe. Too much, too quick, and too often. So I think I am a big proponent of that. And you have seen this with your clients. And I see the same thing that when a person walks into our office, for the most part, they are dealing with multiple types of anxiety. It's not just one fear that coexistent with our fears. This constellation you're referring to, I think it's very palpable and very tangible in our own lives and in our clients' lives. 

I so appreciate, Patricia, how you are acknowledging and validating how normal and human it is. This is. I mean, we are wired up to protect ourselves, right? When we look at the nervous system and how our fight and freeze fond responses kick in, that is an effort to protect ourselves and also store information about what has felt painful. And so we are trying to mitigate those fears with our tracking system. And that sets us up to not only have a negative bias, and that we are seeing things in what could happen in an effort to protect ourselves. And as you're saying, if I'm understanding, if we go too far to the continuum of protection or playing it safe, we lose touch with our own vitality. What matters to us, our sense of purpose and authenticity. 

Exactly. If I can pick it up a little bit many times when we're dealing with anxiety in any setting, we perceive that our anxiety is the enemy, that we have to have a battle against anxiety, that we have to get rid of that we have to replace it. And the reality is that, as you are describing, our anxiety is there to protect us. Our anxiety is part of our common humanity. It just happens that our mind tells us all types of things. Watch out for this. What is happening? Could you make a fool of yourself in this moment? Right? Like, what if there is an earthquake in a week? So 

Right? To resist that. 

I think this idea of actually leaning in, making room for it, noticing it when it shows, is what is going to help us to have a different relationship with anxiety. A relationship in which we don't have to see it as our enemy, but we acknowledge that our mind went into this protective mode. And what we want to do is notice that, experience that, sense that, and then ask ourselves, what is important to me in this moment? What are my values? What really matters right now, as my heart is beating really fast, right. So I think that those acknowledging that, yes, our minds take us into this protective way and that anxiety is not the enemy, and that we have the freedom to choose how to respond to our anxieties, make a huge difference in our lives. 

Absolutely. And if I'm understanding in my own experience with this, it is that when I can come into contact with what really matters to me or what I'm feeling on a deeper level, those are almost the keys to work with that really assist me in liberation. And not that the fear or the anxiety goes away, but the struggle. Because when, as you say, and when we make anxiety wrong or bad, it's almost like the anxiety is the issue and we're broken, or we have issues, or we have some problem and. And then we're trying not to feel anxious, but when we're really scared. How do you not feel anxious when you're scared? And if you're scared and you acknowledge you're scared, then it's like, oh, how do I support myself in being scared? 

That's right. That's right. It's a very different conversation, a different relationship. Right. And as you were saying, I always like to talk about how, again, I know in my own life, I would write, I should write the resume of my fears, basically, actually, the rest of me, a deal of my fears. But one of the things that has happened to me, for example, over the last 18 years, I have been giving different types of workshops. Nationally, internationally, small audiences, 50 people, large audiences. And I can honestly say that the first five minutes when I am there, starting to present, of course, my heart is going to be fast. My mind tells me, Oh my gosh, you're going to make a fool of yourself. What? You know, people don't like your material. And

Right. I think to myself, that question in this moment is, Patricia, what is really important for you right now? I need these two to present to disseminate acceptance and commitment skills for anxiety. When I get in contact with a value that matters, my heart still beats fast, but I am intentionally choosing what to pay attention to. I'm intentionally choosing how to show up to what is in front of me. So thinking life. Many times when anxiety kicks in, as it does every day, we are awake from the moment we open our eyes to the moment we fall asleep. 

There are many moments of fear. We do need to ask ourselves, what matters in this moment? Well, it's really important to me, right? Yes. 

I think it's such a good orientation or ability to navigate, to keep the North Star, if you will, of direction in alignment with what really matters. Because again, if we're driven by fears or playing it safe, then we're likely going to be playing whack-a-mole. Right. And it's a lot of energy when we may not actually be investing in what is truly most meaningful. 

Yeah, you're right. If I can add a little bit, Jessica, I think it is too. When we don't know how to manage anxiety, we invest a lot of mental resources in replacing our anxiety, judging the anxiety, and judging ourselves. What's wrong with me? I shouldn't be feeling this way. We do all types of things to play it safe. Right. If you are afraid of making a fool of yourself in a social setting, you may always make sure that you have your cell phone with you, or you may carry your glass of scotch with you. Right. Just to make it more manageable. But at some point, all of that is going to backfire against us because fundamentally, I think life is very different when we can fully be ourselves, when our behaviors are not dictated by anxiety and fear. Right. 

So I think the problem is not the anxiety, it's how we respond to it as an internal experience. Yes. 

And I wonder what you would say, because as we're talking, I'm aware of a concept that I think is just so important, especially as we look at intimate relating, and that is tolerating discomfort. And I think it applies to what you're saying across the board. And when we're negotiating an intimate relationship with the attachment need of feeling loved and safe, and also feeling the ability to be ourselves and we're good enough and free, like those things sometimes feel conflicting, but those. Those needs are so primal. And when we are attempting to play it safe and maybe not rock the boat or bring up a different opinion that may not be popular, or that you might know your partner is not going to like that. 

Tolerating some difficult conversations or the discomfort, self-soothing to manage the anxieties, not to make them bad, but that is such a key to development. 

Yeah, I think, you know, as you are talking, I was nodding my head because one of the things I have encountered professionally is that it is a form of perfectionism. It's called an interpersonal perfectionist. And it's a little bit what you are describing. Right. 

Right. So I think when any person is dealing with this fear of rocking about, as we're calling or disappointing others. 

Or not belonging, not feeling accepted, or. 

Yeah, that's right. They're afraid of being rejected. Right. They're afraid of being abandoned. Many times, I think it is important to acknowledge that there are certainly values in how we want to show up in that relationship, and they're also values in how we want to relate to ourselves. And sometimes these interpersonal values look like they're in conflict with our personal values. Right. But they are not. It's more about the behaviors. Right. I think sometimes you may have to choose to rock the boat in the service of being honest, in the service of speaking your truth. Right. 

Which is what you were saying about the long term. Right. 

Versus short. Yes, that's right. So in the long term, I choose to be authentic in the service of creating depth and disconnection. Right. And other times, of course, we're going to choose to sharpen that relationship unless things go. But I think what we want to avoid is developing a pattern of repetitive responses in which I am overly focused on always being this supportive friend who says yes to everything or being the partner whom I never disagree with. Or I just never create conflict. I'm not the one starting the conflict. Right. Because of all of that, really, I think, it creates a lot of resentment towards ourselves. 

Yes, yes. And fast forward. It's hard to feel that the relationship is going to be a reflection of, like, if we're talking about this person, it's hard to feel like this relationship is going to represent what matters to you because you haven't necessarily brought it forth. 

I agree. Agree. It's like sometimes if you engage in those behaviors driven by these fears of disappointing others or rocking the boat, it is like you're building a castle in the sky made of glass. It's going to break at any point. Right. It's a matter of time. And also the other thing that happens is that every human being we are wired to experience meaning and connection, authentic ways. At some point in our lives, we know we're not getting that. We know we're not feeling that. Right. Exactly. 

Like fast forward, we may look at the castle that we built and not like it, and not want to have anything to do with it. Because it's like, that's not me. That's not what I want. 

That's right. That's right. So. But I feel 

Romantic relationships, friendships, relationships with our relatives, you name it, right? 

Absolutely. 

And I think the other fear that I see that shows up in relationships, Jessica, is this fear of commitment, this fear of fully committing myself to see how this relationship could grow, to see how this relationship could move in a different direction. I think in the information era, many times that's one of the biggest struggles. Right. I am willing to commit to the person in front of us, not knowing how things are going to be. You have to tolerate uncertainty for that commitment, right? Yes. 

I'm curious that you would encourage somebody to navigate that, because one of the things that I find myself encouraging is What can you say yes to? What parts can you commit to, and are there still question marks, and can you be in the discovery process and the unknown, and say, I am interested in exploring or I'm committed to having this type of relationship. I don't know if it's with you yet. And then maybe you're talking about, is there a point where I have enough data, but I'm still scared to make the decision? And maybe I witnessed divorce in my family, or maybe I just. There's no way to know. That's part of the mystery. 

That's right. That's right. 

How do you encourage people to work with just that fear of commitment? 

Those are beautiful tips. Right. I will just add to what you're saying because of my focus on anxiety. Right. I think there are different ways to manage our intolerance for uncertainty. And sometimes I like to talk with my clients about uncertainty workouts. What, intentionally putting ourselves into trying new things? It doesn't have to be like jumping off the cliff or climbing the Himalaya. It's not about that. It's about trying new things. It's about going to a restaurant that you have never, and ordering a dish that you usually wouldn't. Because intolerance of uncertainty creates rules about what you should do, what you cannot do. Right. So you can try by breaking those rules. 

You can sometimes flip a coin and decide which side is going to go for a hike, for example, or to watch a movie that you usually will say, I won't watch this movie. Right. So the uncertainty workout is really an invitation for all of us to try something with openness. Not with judgmental eyes, not when the mind tells us it's going to be terribly, awfully bad, but really with openness. Let's see how it is. Right. And to really get attuned to that. I think one skill I like to practice with my clients we coming up with, you know, different exercises to practice uncertainty workouts. I think the other skill that I like to teach my clients it's really acknowledging that in life, no one is going to have 100% certainty of anything. And that requires humility. That's not just talking, right? 

It's just really accepting with humility that we are human beings.

Right? That's just part of being alive again. And then I invite my clients to look at the workability of their actions. When you are chasing for certainty, you're trying to answer every single question you have, right? Sometimes people in relationships have a checklist: Does this person do this or that, blah, blah. But that checklist, actually, is another form of avoidance. Because at the end, with uncertainty, there are going to be many questions that they don't have an answer to. You won't know because we're trying to understand something like what I had not with experience, right? 

Yes. 

So I think the other aspect is really, when uncertainty comes, can you make room for it? How does it show up in your body? Is it ecstatic? Is it moving? What is it pushing you to do? What is this uncertainty pushing you to demand? Is it asking you for reassurance? Is it asking you to do more? Is it asking you to text more, to call more, to ask more? Right. And really looking, is that consistent with how I want to be in this moment? Is that consistent with my values? So I think there is a lot to say about making room for uncertainty as an emotion. Acknowledging that we live in a world in which nothing has 100% certainty. Practicing uncertainty workouts intentionally. Intentionally, right. To get into the habit of having new experiences with an open mind with a beginner's mind. 

So those will be some of the things and skills I talk to my clients about. 

It's so important because as we're talking about this, I mean, I'm even thinking of. I don't know if you ever studied any of David Schnarch's work around differentiation, but he talks about this, as I think, about intimate relationships that most of us don't do the actual growing up and maturing because of this difficulty tolerating discomfort, like we're in service of avoiding. So these uncertainty workouts just seem so helpful to build some muscles around tolerating the unknown, the uncertainty. And it ironically, I think, builds some self-efficacy that we don't have to have everything controlled around us. We can begin to trust how, like, we're capable of handling something unknown. I mean, that's one of the things fundamentally about anxiety. 

Right. 

We don't. We're not anxious about things we're confident about, or that are like if we have a skill of tying our shoes, we're not worried about tying our shoes. Right. And it's a future event. But if we're anticipating a future event that we don't feel confident in, then we're likely to feel anxious about that. So to be in the practice of tolerating the ambiguity or the uncertainty, I think, gives a little bit more felt experience that, yes, this is anxiety-provoking, or I don't know, or maybe my heart is beating as you were talking about public speaking, but that I will be okay. 

Right? 

Because if the belief that you're helping people challenges that I need to have everything accounted for me to feel safe, when that actually isn't possible, there's no way we can account for every Single variable in life. It seemed like you wanted to say something. 

Yes, that's right. I just want to add, you know, I am not familiar with this researcher, but one of the psychological principles within acceptance and commitment therapy is called experiential avoidance. And basically, it's referring to what you are describing. Right. This response to our thoughts, feelings, sensations, that really is characterized by avoiding, minimizing, ignoring, and dismissing, is all because we cannot make room for them. Right. We start, you know, 

Because then I'm not dealing just with this first layer of pain, my heart beating fast, or the loneliness, or the feeling down. I'm also dealing with the consequences of my avoidance. Right. So there is something really powerful that I think many psychotherapy models have addressed in some way. Right. As you were saying about inability tolerate discomfort enough. We talk about experiential avoidance, which leads us to a struggle. Which is so true. It's so true for a lot of our suffering in life. 

Yes. And this could potentially be true for people negotiating past traumas or relational trauma. And I even wonder about some neurodivergent experiences. Does this fit? Because if the world or even family or relationship is operating neurotypically, it's hard to see that there's a space for you, and then these feelings of discomfort. But how does it fit? Or how am I. How is my way of processing or experiencing okay or good? And the disconnect there, or when we haven't had trust or safety, relationally, it can be incredibly activating. Do you want to talk about trauma or neurodivergence as it relates to what we're describing? 

Yeah, yeah. I think I can chime in specifically about trauma. Right. Trauma, perhaps. And all types of trauma, interpersonal trauma, because of natural disaster, trauma because of aggression. I think it's one of those experience that shapes our world and who we are in so many ways. And it led us to have a sometimes chronic pattern of avoidance. Makes it hard for our nervous system to get regulated many times. And I think one of the things that we try to do within acceptance and commitment therapy, act. It's really helpful, our clients and ourselves to develop what we call more psychological flexibility. Right. And if a person has been exposed to a single form of trauma or multiple events, those are in trauma, whether that's the small P or the big T, as we will be talking about. 

That doesn't mean that they cannot let's kids relate to those experiences in a more compassionate way, in a more effective way. But to your point, I think many times the things that we go through in life reinforce these avoidance patterns and increase our intolerance and difficulties to see it with discomfort, whether that's physiological discomfort, psychological discomfort. Right. So my goodness, these days we do have evidence-based and compassionate skills to teach people how to relate to that. Right. There is so much to say about that. But I agree with you. I think some experiences really reinforce the avoidance pattern all the way. 

Well, thank you for speaking to how this can manifest and how an act practitioner or psychologist like yourself might approach. And it sounds very congruent with what's already been shared and even with the workouts of the uncertainty. Is that what they're called, Uncertainty workouts? 

I call them uncertainty workouts. Yes. 

Yeah, I love it that they can be scaled where it's doable. It doesn't have to be, as you said, jumping off a cliff or a huge risk. It could be something that feels even micro workout that gives an opportunity with that compassion, as you said, the curiosity, the not judging or blaming, but with that compassion. I would love for you to say a little bit more about that. But typically, these tendencies of either perfectionism or some of these ways in which we relate are, as you said, protective. So they likely served a good purpose at some point. Maybe we're even adaptive. Right. 

If we look at certain environments and then, as we look at expanding our capacity, living in more authenticity and having more meaningful interactions, or not feeling so restricted, living more freely to build these muscles with these workouts and have more range, more flexibility that this could be a really great resource to be in practice of. 

Yeah, yeah. I was nodding my head as you were talking because in the context of anxieties, whether that's a person with a specific phobia or the fear of making mistakes, or fears of performance anxiety, productivity anxiety, or trauma-based experiences. One of the things that we do in our work is help clients to develop what we call values-based exposure manuals. And exposure is for the audience that is not familiar. It's an evidence-based treatment that helps us to approach our fears more systematically. And how we do. Exposure has evolved over the last 30 years. So, within the app, basically, the goal is to link every exposure exercise we do to our values. But the way that we approach it is also very different. Right. 

I think, you know, if I am afraid of talking to my spouse, for example, right. I may just exercise, and they just go and talk to your spouse, right? And saying what you think, and you may have maybe a script if you want. Right. And say, like, you may use the istm. Is this a situation I think I need, and I feel this. Right. That's one way of doing it. But the thing within agba, what's more interesting is first looking at how you're relating to the experience of thinking, talking to your husband. Right. Like, if I'm with you, I would say, okay, so let's visualize that you are there talking to your husband about wanting to see the taxes for this year. I know your husband has told you, Don't worry about it, everything is fine. 

But you genuinely want to know what our financial situation is. So I would like to see, you know, how we have the papers, you know, filing taxes. So imagine that for a moment, as you're holding onto that image, what's showing up in your body, and you notice the sensation. What is your mind telling you? Right. What happens if you go along with the thought? What's the value for you right now? So we will do a lot of checking how the person relates to these internal experiences, how they are relating to thoughts, feelings, sensations, and how they are relating to the person in front of them through the outside world. Right. So all this is in the service, not of experiencing more or less anxiety. Right. But in the service of making room for what shows up on the inside as you're taking a behavioral step. 

So that conversation is very different, right? 

Yes. 

When you're doing that with less exposure, it's not something that you check off from a list or you say, I did it. I talked to my husband. Right. My morning. Interesting. In that intentionality you're putting in that experience, how did I show up? Right. How did I show up to myself as the noise was coming up, as I had body noise and fake notes? How did I show up when I was looking at that person, and I saw maybe my husband frowning a little bit or opening his eyes? What happened to me? Right. So it's a very. It's a very, I think, compassionate conversation, still helping people to approach their fears, but in a more intentional way without rushing through it. 

I love that. 

Right. 

Because in that experience is that when we liberate ourselves again to choose how to respond to the outside world of ourselves, the rushing through a power telling you done and done, we're like, okay, Julia, that's just it. But it's not necessarily going to be long-lasting. Right. Because I still run. You're still avoiding. Right? You're still avoiding. 

Yes, you can white knuckle it, and you did it. But does that give you a different pattern or a nervous system? Felt embodied experience. And I love this because even people listening intellectually might say, Oh yeah, easy enough to have the difficult conversation that I want to have, but in reality, not so easy. And so to be able to do some real unpacking and understanding of what gets activated and the sensations and the thinking, and to give some real space to that gives a different experience, as you're saying, and also gives us more to be in practice and working with. And we could even slice that thinner. Right. And have some baby steps that could be further in alignment with the values, and what that can feel like if it's again, making it a little bit more doable. 

That's right. And you can go into this other microscale, we call it diffusion, in which you're noticing and naming those stats. Right. Here comes Judge. Judge Patricia. Right. You know, you know that's one of the names I give to these stats sometimes, right? I have cranky Patricia and Judge Patricia. But we know that when we're going to have conversations that matter to us, of course, our minds are going to tell us all types of things. So, noticing the naming of those thoughts, another microskill to practice. Right. All in the service of helping the relationship to win. Right. And helping ourselves to have a different relationship with anxiety. So I think all that makes a huge difference in the quality of our. 

Lives and what we can engage with. 

Right. 

Again, the empowerment of living in alignment with what matters most and taking action on things that maybe we're scared to do that we can feel more confident. So before we just. I know we're. Our time is winding down. Would you like to say anything about what it looks like or an example of compassion? 

Yeah, that looks. It might work in different ways. Right. And I'm sure you are already working with your clients and these skills. For example, with procrastination, which is often misunderstood, people think that it's a matter of willpower, that it's a personality trait, or that someone is not very action-oriented. But there are many psychological processes leading a person to procrastinate. Right? So one of the things I have found with procrastination, and that's what I wrote my book about, it really helps people first to map the psychological process. What they are avoiding, what is the role they are holding onto, what is the self? Doubtful thoughts they are having, what is the emotion they're having a difficult time accepting, what is the value they are disconnecting from? And then from that. 

I invite them to visualize their compassionate self, to visualize and criticize themselves and notice when these two different selves are getting activated.

Nice.

And then from that. I like to talk about compassionate accountability, acknowledging that when our mind comes up with all types of reasons, you have extra time, you can do this last minute, you don't need to do it now. Right. We have the capacity to acknowledge that and to choose. Right? To choose how to respond to that. So that's one way the work on specific fears. If a person is dealing with specific fears, including fear of abandonment, a fear of rejection, I like to talk about WISE MOVE. WISE MOVE is an acronym. Basically, the W stands for Watching your mind. What's your mind telling you? What's showing up in your mind? Is it an image? Is it a thought? 

Right. Can you invite those experiences? Right. We know when we are wrestling and resisting internally, right? So the Invite is like really practicing this attitude of acceptance. That S stands for Stay with experience. Are you staying with those thoughts? Are you staying with a sensation? Is there any part that you're trying to get rid of them, replace them, telling yourself everything is going to be okay? The E stands for making a choice either towards your values or away from your values. No one can make that choice for us. Right. Such an individual choice. The aim of the wise move. The M stands for Making a choice. Right. Fundamentally, we're more invested in teaching our clients the capacity to choose to be the owners of their decisions, is relates to this experience. The O means Observe what shows up once you make a choice. 

When you decide how to relate to this internal experience, what happens? And then the V, it's more like Validating that. How can you appreciate the hard work? It may feel something simplistic about choosing in the midst of having a panic attack, in the midst of worrying thoughts, in the midst of having, you know, this fear of abandonment, it's a big thing, it's a bold move, it's courageous, right? Yes, very courageous. So appreciating that and appreciating what we don't mean that we're letting ourselves off the hook. It just means that we're just treating ourselves with gentleness as a choice because it helps us to self-regulate again. Self-compassion helps us with self-regulation again. Yes. Then, finally, the Escape from the wise moves. It's really about staying pressed with life. 

I think there is so much happening in life in front of us. Right. So I like to talk about the wise moves as micro skills. Right. To see how we can respond to anxiety. The funny thing is that sometimes in my work, when I introduce this to my clients, they come back and they say I got a wise, very wise. The mood. You know, I haven't gone there yet. So I think that would be another. It's a practice in which you're actively blending facing your fears and adding compassion in the moment. So that's another way. 

I love it, and I just appreciate how explicit the values are woven into this. The choosing and the commitment around what we're going to take action with, and also supporting our system. Right. That it's not just a white knuckling it or bypassing our fears. It's really helping look at what this is indicating, what I am experiencing, and really helping with the guidance. Because I think truly, you know, I worked with adolescents for. In the beginning of my career and I. I was a wilderness therapist for a summer at one of the therapeutic kind of wilderness programs. 

And it was very interesting to me that in this particular group of young girls, the adolescent girls whose parents were extremely well-intended, but many of them didn't ever really experience a boundary, never really washed a dish like the almost didn't want their child to have to deal with a no. Or deal with difficult feelings. I'm not at all suggesting it was like parents' fault, so please hear that. But there was something important around the process of learning how to deal with difficult emotions of like I don't want to do this, or I'm uncomfortable with this, or I'm scared about this, and having a process of how to deal with that. I think, as you just described, it gives some scaffolding to life will be challenging, it will be scary. 

And let's look at how we deal with that and how we support you, or how we support us to find our integrity and take action that feels within our ability that we can contribute towards again a choice that we feel good about. 

Yeah, yeah. I appreciate what you're sharing. Because here is a beautiful emotion. Parenting love, right? Yes. I really want to protect my kid, but I think sometimes in the service of love, we play it safe. Right? Sometimes in the service of love, we play it safe. Right. That's what we see. It's like 

Right? 

Yes. 

And I think sometimes that's another. Another situation that we can check. Is this loving behavior expanding my kid's life, or is this contracting it? Right. Is this loving behavior expanding me, helping me to be the parent I want to be, or taking me farther away? But there we go. That's something that we do with love. We can become overprotective. So pumpkins. 

Absolutely. 

I can play it safe. Yes. 

Yes. Thank you so much for everything you're sharing. I just know you have so much to offer. The books that you've written, the center that you direct and lead, and it sounds like you speak and give workshops. So, for people who are resonating with or finding how helpful your suggestions and messages helpful, what would you like to direct people towards? 

That's a good question. I'm puffing to think these days in the information era, we have so many social media accounts. Right. But I think my website, www.thisisdrz.com, is perhaps the easiest way when people can get a sense of what I am working on. My books and newsletter, I think that will be one main source. 

Great. Okay. Is there anything else you want to direct people towards? You have your website, you have social media. 

Yes. Well, for people who are interested, I have this new upcoming book on procrastination. 

Nice. 

I think procrastination is really a struggle for many people dealing with depression, emotional regulation. It shows some. Definitely. In relationships. Right. Relationship, one partner is the go-getter and the other partner struggles getting things done. So. So this book is. It's a workbook for people to really tap into what leads them to avoid getting things done. And I think he has a lot of skills. So that's one thing I would recommend, People. It's available right now for pre-order on Amazon. And I personally can't wait to hold the book in my hands. 

Oh my goodness. 

Yes. Well. 

And I'll make sure to put a few of your other books on today's show notes, along with your website and your social media. Thank you so much for being here. 

Thank you so much for having me. It has been a treat, and please see that. I really appreciate all the work you're doing and have listened to episodes from your podcast, and you're really, I think, sharing incredible resources for people to have authentic relationships with themselves and with others. So, my appreciation for what you are doing. 

Oh, thank you.