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Why do the smallest disagreements with loved ones sometimes feel like the fiercest battles? Conflict in relationships often spirals into unproductive cycles of attack and defense, leaving us stuck, misunderstood, and further apart from the connection we crave. We rush to defend, strategize, and fix—yet rarely pause long enough to truly understand what matters beneath the surface.

In this episode, listeners are invited to explore powerful strategies for breaking the cycle of reactivity and shifting attention toward curiosity, clarity, and genuine understanding. Through personal stories, actionable principles, and practical guidance, the conversation uncovers how paying attention to our underlying needs, emotions, interests, and habitual responses can foster a more constructive, compassionate, and collaborative approach to navigating conflict. By learning to differentiate between strategies and the needs they serve, listeners gain the tools to create meaningful change, deepen intimacy, and transform even the stickiest conflicts into opportunities for growth.

Dana Caspersen is a conflict engagement specialist, best-selling author, TEDx speaker, and award-winning performing artist. She works with individuals, organizations, and communities worldwide as a trainer, coach, consultant, and dialogue designer. Drawing on the knowledge and insight gained from her experience as a mediator and conflict analyst and her 40-year career as a performing arts innovator, Dana empowers people and organizations to navigate complex and challenging situations. Conflict Is an Opportunity is her newest book.

Episode Highlights

04:22 How our bodies react and impact communication.

09:25 Moving from attack-defense to understanding in conflict.

13:22 The impact of unmet needs in relationship conflict.

14:22 Distinguishing needs, emotions, interests, and strategies.

18:16 Creating a supportive relationship culture for navigating conflict.

23:15 The importance of internal clarification before addressing issues.

24:50 Practicing curiosity and validation during difficult interactions.

28:35 Managing communication triggers and acknowledging emotions.

33:32 Intentional connection and embodied curiosity in conflict resolution.

36:07 Safety, attachment, and speaking from interests instead of vulnerabilities.

38:06 Conscious decision-making and the role of requests in conflict.

42:46 Applying conflict skills across all relationships and areas of life.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

• Before addressing conflict, take a moment to breathe, relax, and bring your attention inward so you can respond rather than react.
• Pay attention to your body’s stress signals—like a tight neck or jaw—and consciously shift to a more open, relaxed posture to support curiosity and connection.
• Redirect your attention away from attack and defense; instead, get genuinely curious about what your partner is feeling and what matters to them.
• Start conversations by acknowledging your partner’s feelings and concerns to disarm defensiveness and open up constructive dialogue.
• Recognize that requests or strategies (like asking your partner to be home by 8) often mask deeper needs (such as intimacy or security), and talk about those underlying needs instead.
• Approach your partner with open-ended requests rather than demands, creating space for true dialogue and collaboration.
• Use your emotions as a clue to uncover your real needs and interests, then express those clearly and kindly to your partner.
• Expect that conflict will arise and discuss with your partner how you’ll address it—having a shared mindset helps you get back on track when things get heated.

Mentioned

Conflict Is an Opportunity (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Changing the Conversation: The 17 Principles of Conflict Resolution (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Conflict is a place of possibility (TEDx Talks) (YouTube link) (video)

Your Body Language May Shape Who You Are (TED) (YouTube link) (video)

Gottman Institute

Emotionally Focused Therapy (EFT) (*Psychology Today) (link)

12 Relationship Principles to Strengthen Your Love (free guide)

Connect with Dana Caspersen

Website:danacaspersen.com

Facebook:facebook.com/DanaCaspersen

Instagram:instagram.com/dcaspersen

LinkedIn:linkedin.com/in/dana-caspersen

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Dana, thanks for joining us today. 

Oh, such a pleasure to be here. Thank you for having me. Yes. 

And as I was just letting people know about your background through your bio, and you've had 40 years in the performing arts space, how did you transition to supporting people in conflict management? 

I started because in my own life, there were so many conflicts, and I was really suffering from them, and I was really realizing that I just didn't know how to deal with them. And a friend of mine dragged me to a workshop on conflict, and during the workshop, I had this light bulb moment, like I don't think I've ever had before, where I suddenly recognized it doesn't have to be this way, it can be different. So I started studying just on my own to try to get a better sense of what I was doing and what I might do. And then I saw how,

And it was such a relief and it was so exciting that I then studied further, went and got a degree, got a master's in conflict studies and mediation, and started getting really interesting and thinking about how does this kind of mindset not a formula, not a cookie cutter way of doing it, but how do we really develop skill on a broad scale in the world so that we don't end up in constant wars and we don't end up with divisive conflicts that simmer for generations sometimes, and in relationships and in communities. And when I first started working in conflict, I really kept my two fields of work apart. Where I was a performing artist in dance and theater, and I thought, okay, I'm not going to water one of them down, either of them down. 

But as I went along, I started to recognize that they're actually very similar in many ways. When we get into a conflict, we can feel like it's stuck, and we're down. And a dancer's job is to come back every day and not repeat the same thing, but reconnect to ideas. And I started to recognize that the nature of that practice is the same as in conflict. 

So for me, in both fields, it's about what's possible that we haven't noticed yet. 

Maybe this is an opportunity for what is being surfaced that needs to be surfaced, or would be really useful if we could surface it, that we're afraid to? What if we can find a way to do it constructively? So the fields eventually diverged, and they came back together. 

I love this. And one of the things that I find so helpful is when different disciplines arrive at similar principles, and it feels so validating. And one of the ways that I'm experiencing how you're describing this, and I've never been a professional dancer, I do enjoy movement, and there's a real connection. You're saying connection to the idea and also the experience that it's embodied. And I often feel that in conflict, while we might not intend to be embodied, it kind of goes through the nervous system, and might take over that we feel extremely embodied because of all that's activated. But we didn't necessarily intend to be so embodied and have it be so visceral. I'm curious what your thoughts are. 

Yeah, absolutely. So I work a lot with the body, and not in a decorative way. Not like, let's act out conflict or something like that, but rather to notice that we are always. Our bodies are always registering everything. And we can notice. We can start to notice. What are our habits when we suddenly get stressed? Do we, like, tighten up our face and pull down our neck and stress out our stomach and that. We can also let the body help us by doing things like, “Okay, I want to, first of all, really notice what I do. Okay, I'll get right down there. Cramp, right?” 

Yeah. 

I'm going to feel that and notice it. What's that habit? It's not what I am, it's just what I've done. And that can shift. And then it can also practice thinking, okay, when I feel, like, really connected and great and curious and open, how might I physically feel? My shoulders might open. I might really feel the ground. I might feel my face open, I might breathe. And then we can notice. Okay, that's what that feels like physically. And our body can. We can consciously move between those so that our body can help us. When we find ourselves freaking out and falling into patterns that don't work for us. We can say, “Okay, there's that pattern. I'm not gonna yell at myself for that”. But I can also say, “What if I shift physically into a different state?” So that can 

help us shift mentally into a different state, because 

I'm thinking of how the disciplines can meet each other in what you're describing. Because of the interconnection, I don't know. I'm not necessarily. I don't follow Tony Robbins. I remember my brother was into him for a while, and there was something that he was saying, like, “look up”. Just your posture, like, looking up and trying to still have that depressed thought or something. And it was like, just an interesting noticing of the body. And I know. I don't know if it was Amy Cuddy. She did a TED talk about, like, some of the postures, our neurochemicals, and our hormones.

I have done somatic psychology and some movement psychology, but it was an improv acting class, like in grade school, and it was like these exercises of moving around the room like different animals or different elements like fire or water. And it was so fascinating how it changes the state. And I think this is really important. And then, if we come back to the conflict, if I can pivot here, one of the things you help people focus on is their attention. And sometimes, if we don't have some scaffolding, you're talking about skills and principles that we have difficulty orienting. Right. So you're using the body as a tool, perhaps, of like, “ooh, if I have a habitual pattern of like, clenching my jaw, this is for me. My neck gets tight, my jaw gets tight, and I breathe. I don't breathe into my nose”. So those are things I try to notice. And yeah, it's very automatic. And that can help offer more space. And so there's attention there. But as it relates to conflict, talk to us a little bit more about some opening here that you're talking about when you can focus your attention on these principles. 

Yeah. So I think about attention as a primary action. So I tend to think of conflict in terms of action because that's where we can really access what we're doing and figure out what we want to do, maybe instead. And so before we do anything, we pay attention to something. And what we pay attention to shapes. Our whole view of the situation has to do with what we assume about the other person. So oftentimes in a conflict, people will get immediately focused on the attack that they think they heard, or the need to tell the other person what's wrong with them, or the need to defend themselves if the attention is at the level of attack and defense, which it very frequently is. And then it gets kind of circular back and forth. No, but you said this. You always. 

And then when we're stuck in that kind of attack, defense circle, then we really get stuck on the strategy level of what we think should happen. And our focus is on strategy. Well, obviously, we need to do this, or you need to do this, or I need to do this, and then the other person comes back with their strategy. And we are at this level of strategy, attack, and defense. And many times, we don't really know what matters to each other. And we start to have this false assumption that finding that out would be a kind of weakness, as if we step back from our strategies, that's a kind of weakness. And I think that's a place where we all get stuck. 

And if we can really start to develop a mindset of curiosity, so that our attention goes first to our sense of curiosity. What's going on here? It sounds like you're thinking this would be really important, what we should do. What's most important to you? We can ask each other, or I have a sense that I'm missing something. “What do you think I might be missing? What matters to you here? And then I can let you know what matters to me”. And so stepping back from that attack and defense, stepping down from the level of strategy, intimate relationships, developing the culture between each other, where when something's going on, you can acknowledge it. You can be like, “Woo. Okay, we're. We got kind of up there with her. 

I want to take a step back and make sure I understand what's up with you, what you're thinking, what you're really caring about here. Is this it?” And guessing. And then they can say, “No, it's this. Oh, okay. So is it more this? Yes. Okay. “And what's the most important thing to do?” And then here. Okay. And here's what really matters to me”. And so you bring the things together between you as opposed to a volleying back and forth of who's wrong or right. 

Oh, my goodness. I'm like, have we been like? I felt kindred, like a connection with you, when I was reading your book. I'm like, these are all the things that I feel are so relevant and true, and honestly, from a psychological perspective, especially as we look at intimate relationships and the specific therapeutic model of emotionally focused therapy. Emotionally focused. The focus and there's so much attention to what the attachment needs and what's the core emotion that's getting hooked. And that's a lot of the work of a facilitator or therapist or coach, and is helping, they call it protective strategies, is to defend and attack and get into the deep layers of what matters. And that's where it is typically more vulnerable. But that's where the connection lies. And we can really show, and we can respond to each other. 

And that's where we feel that collaboration. And your ability to distill this is so helpful. And from the frame that I'm mentioning, I've seen the defendant attack largely as a protection, like it's a survival. But I'm curious what you think. I mean, even myself, right? So much training, so much experience, so much personal practice, and I can still feel the like, hook of like, if my partner's giving me these critical eyes and has a tone, and then I have my, like, “he's my person”, so I feel a little threat in that. But tell me, what makes you think this is just such a pervasive, like, compelling place to go? 

Yeah, I think the underlying needs are so important to us that they just flare up if we feel endangered. And I really think we don't have many cultural training families in our schools and our workplaces, where we recognize the importance of that level, of what really matters, and that's actually this. Sometimes people fear that it's a place of scary vulnerability, and it's actually a place of great possibility and a kind of fantastic sense of relief. If you come to, rather than arguing about whether we need a new car or not, then you recognize, you take it down to the level of like, one person might need more autonomy, the other person might need more safety in relationship to money and things like that, then we can have a conversation. Okay, what would it look like? 

Rather than “well, we need a new car”. “Well, we can't have a new car”. “Oh my God, like, take the bus, whatever”. If we take it down to the level of like, “you know what? I'm finding that I really need to have more autonomy in terms of I need to have transport that's going to be sustainable and reliable”. The other person might say, “Yeah, and I just really want to make sure that we have an economic plan that's going to, in the next five years, we're going to be okay. So let's look at what it'd look like to have reliable transportation and a five-year economic plan that feels safe to us”. I think a lot of times we get stuck on strategy, arguing we should get a car, we shouldn't get a car, or we get stuck on the emotion without letting the emotion do its work. And then we're like, I'm furious, you know, sad. And then for me, the work of emotion is to help us understand what matters. If we can say, I'm so furious because what really matters to me is that I'm able to contribute in a way that feels meaningful to me, or whatever the need is under it. And so I think the reason that we flare up is that we're not used to having the pathway from what matters to the expression of what matters. So we just kind of blindly blow up because it becomes so pressurized. 

If I can say, attached to the strategy, that seems to support it. 

Yes. 

And the individual's perspective. And it becomes very narrow, especially when we look at the threat system. Right. We're already. If we're in a fight, flight, or freeze, the tunnel vision. I mean, that's one of the things that happens, is we get hyper, but then our pattern or thinking, the strategy, becomes so fixated. And if I'm understanding you, if we can slow down, get curious, and wonder about what matters. And as you said, the role of emotion is to help us have a bit more path of accessing. One of the things I love to ask people, Dana, when they're very emotional about what they want, but I'm not hearing the need yet. Sometimes I will ask, if you got the thing you're asking for, what would that allow you to feel? 

Yeah. 

And sometimes it gives me a sense of the need, but sometimes it gives me a little bit more access to that pathway to the need, the emotion. And so in this example, I want to feel like I can go somewhere with some sense of autonomy or independence, and I can feel like I say yes to engagements, or I can be out in the world in a productive way, and I have a vehicle that supports that mobility. Like, I think one's partner would be like, I would want that for you. 

Right, Right. Let's figure that out. Yes. 

Or conversely, the partner that's like, “Oh, I'm a little freaked out. I don't feel like our safety net is really, you know, the three-month, six-month kind of support our crisis fund is there yet. Like, I feel like that just feels risky, and I want to feel more secure”. And, you know, the description around that need, likely the partner would respond, like, “of course”. Like, that makes sense too. 

Right? Yeah. I think we conflate, you know, we stick together strategy and needs, and interests. And they, as you say, really feel the same. And when I'm working with people, I do a lot of training and work with people who want to think differently about conflict. One of the main things is to really build the ability to differentiate between a strategy and a need. And oftentimes, and that's how I also got started in this, is this initial workshop that I mentioned, my friend dragged me to. The guy said, “Okay, somebody give me an example of a need”. And it had happened to be that the night before, my husband and I had been working way too much. And so we were like, “all right, one night a week, let's get home by 8”. And we were supposed to be home by 8 the night before. My husband didn't get home because he got stuck in a meeting. And I was angry. And so I was like, “Okay, I need my husband to come home one night a week before 8”. And the guy was like, “That's not a need”. I was like, “Yes, it is. I need him to come home”. And in that moment when he's like, “No, that's not a need”. And when we worked through to get down to the level of like, “okay, why does that matter to you? What is it that, like, you say, well, how would you feel? And also, what would it help with?” 

Yeah, 

And it would help with having time for intimacy, having time to be together. And then I went home, and I was like, you know what?“I really want more time for intimacy”. We were both like, yeah, because of course, as you say, if we speak from what matters to us and not what we think is wrong with the other person or what we should do, then we're putting it between us. What might it look like if we found a time we could be together? That also, you know, works with all the responsibilities that we have, for example, in that situation with my husband and me. And so getting, especially intimate relationships, getting into a culture like, between you over time. So, for example, with my husband and me, it's changed so much that sometimes now when a conflict will come up, they'll actually be like, “Oh, it's a conflict, all right. So what's going on? So we can analyze it. Oh, my gosh, it's not scary anymore”. It just becomes a place where we're like, 

Oh, my goodness. People spend hours, months, and years. 

Yeah. 

I mean, if I understood your personal example, back when you were describing this workshop, getting home at 8 was a strategy. 

Absolutely. Yeah. 

And if that doesn't support your husband's needs, then it's kind of a stop. Right. Like, it's like, how are we? How do we have freedom here to get creative? 

Right. 

It's just this one strategy that can feel very limiting. 

Yeah. 

And then if the goodwill that you're describing in the climate, there's enough practice and experience that, oh, this. There's something here. Let's work this. 

Yeah. 

And let's see what matters so we can support each other like that. A talk about attention. Yeah, that's a very different focus, right? 

Yeah, absolutely. And you know, as you say, even with your close partner, when something happens, you might flare up. So obviously, you know, something really matters to you here that maybe I'm not getting yet. What is it? What are you thinking about? 

Yeah. 

So you shift your attention, and our attention is in our control. The more we become conscious of it, the more we can pull ourselves back from a habit and say, “Oh, there's that habit. Okay, I'm not going to act that habit out right now. I'm going to stop that for a second and then literally have a plan”. And that's what I find helpful. 

My first book is called Changing the Conversation: The 17 Principles of Conflict Resolution. I think the last principle, “17”, is to 

Exactly. 

And then we have no plan for dealing with it, either for ourselves or with our partner. And the more we can have. And this doesn't mean you have to have some sort of formula. Now at 7 o'clock, we're going to sit down and talk about conflict. Rather, you have a common mindset around when stuff happens, when stuff comes up, you know that it's okay to bring it up. And you know that if you get off the rails, you can get back on the rails. And you can do that in a way that is based on curiosity and love and really expressing. Also, not tiptoeing around what matters to you, but really expressing it and really being willing to hear what matters to the other person.

Absolutely. And I hear that these are skills that, when we practice them, become more accessible, and that they're not an exact formula that has to be super formal or rigid. It's. It can apply to any. We can take it anywhere with us. And I love your invitation that it doesn't have to be all or nothing. There could be a part of us that is feeling the reactivity or the defensiveness. And then there's another part that, okay, there's likely something else here that I don't quite understand or get. And I get interested in that. I kind of get curious about that. And can I start wondering, and can that start to shift the dynamic and the Conversation? And I will say personally, when I do this, and we start to access what really matters, it is a complete game-changer. 

Yeah, absolutely. 

It's like we went from conflict that felt sticky and like, “ooh, this is like, we're not on the same page. This does not. We're not like, allied here” to, “oh, my gosh, we have an opportunity”. And like, “this is a win, and this can feel good for both of us”. 

Yeah. And part of that also is how we bring a thing up. So let's talk about housework. So maybe one person might say, like, “Oh, my God, are you such a slob? I'm so sick of cleaning up after you”. And the other person then would get defensive and, you know, “have all kinds of reasons, whatever it is”. And that raising the topic in that way is raising a topic about what's wrong with the other person, but raising the topic in a way that doesn't contain attack and puts it between you. And to say something like, “Hey, I want to talk about how we share household tasks. This. It's not feel right. It's not good for me now. Could we have a conversation?” Then you've put it between you, and then there's something you're talking about together, and it's not starting with what's wrong with the other person. 

And you said a moment ago, and this likely fits with what you're describing here with the start, and this correlates. I don't know if you. I keep mentioning, like, couples research, but the Gottman Institute has done a tremendous amount of research, and they talk about a gentle startup that, when we start with the harsh startup like that, typically sets the stage well. And if we can have a gentler start, then that tends to be more invitational. And it possibly fits with something you were just describing. Which is the more clear we can be internally about the drive or the motivation? Like, if I have strong feelings, like, what is that about? That we take an internal. Just inventory or check around what? How come this matters? Like, sometimes we don't know. Do you think it's helpful to have a little bit more? 

Oh, a hundred percent. A hundred percent. And to really take a step back and say, all right, like, I'm freaking out about this. What is it that I really care about? And if you find yourself still having it be about something about the other person, that's still not it. “What about me? What do I need? What is this in relation to?” Because then it's an invitation to the other person to help make your life better. And like you say, sometimes you can't name it, especially when we don't have a habit of naming needs or naming interests. Then it might even be helpful to say, like, “hey, I'm kind of really freaking out, and I'm not exactly sure why”. Even so, I need to just, like, take a little break or something so you can name it without dumping it on the other person. And then sometimes that can also help you talk through with them and figure out what's going on. 

Absolutely. Like, there's been times where I can feel myself getting defensive, and I'm like, I'm losing my ability to be focused on how we can be constructive less. This hasn't happened recently, but years and years ago, just to recognize my capacity was starting to shift to, just more of that defensive hold, or even in response. Like, my husband and I have both done this with each other. I really want to hear what you're saying, and I'm distracted because I keep hearing you describe me, and I am noticing some defensiveness. But I also love to hear more about you. Like, can you share more about what this means to you? It's like a redirect. It's an invitation to, can we focus more on how this matters? And sometimes that can be helpful if it's done, like you said, in a more gentle way. Do you find that? 

Yeah, I find sometimes people can respond badly if they feel like they're being therapized or analyzed. And so I find the simplest expression is the best. Just like, you know, “what matters to you here”. 

Yeah. 

Because if we start getting into “don't tell me this way and don't talk about it this way”, then that's what they're primarily hearing, in my experience. 

Yes. 

And sometimes the practice of. It's not easy, but the practice of not hearing attacks. So again, that's the first principle in my first book is don't hear attacks. And then the anti-principle is to hear, attack, and ignore all other information. So developing the capacity to hear what's coming at you and then kind of like, guess at what might be behind it, and then ask them, Is this what's mattering to you here? No or yes. Okay. Hear the information. And it's tempting for sure to start trying to control how other people are expressing things, but it's a dead end. And it often creates more escalation. So I really find just getting into that “curious mindset” and saying, “I want to make sure I understand. What's most important to you here? Is it this?” And then there can be a side conversation about expression at another time. Maybe sometimes it's helpful to be like, hey, when we get into problems, I have a really hard time reacting when I hear you talking, as you said about me. When you're trying to express something about yourself, I'm not sure what to do at that moment. So what do you find is happening for you when having that conversation? So you can have a conversation about communication culture, but sometimes, if you mix them up, people start freaking out. 

Yes. 

Yes. 

I love that distinction. Cause that's what I was feeling as you were describing is if I'm in a more like I was talking about, there's a part of me that might feel defensive, but I have the capacity to be curious. And I can follow that thread of like, “ooh, tell me more”.Like, “how is this important? Or is it this?” Or, you know, “just he is really in service of understanding”. And there are times when I lose the capacity. And then I might say, as you're saying, “Oh, like, I'm noticing I'm starting to feel defensive”. But you said not to mix it. That's helpful. 

Well, not mixing up your opinion about their communication strategies. 

Yes. Yes. 

With what matters to you. 

Yes. 

Or your desire to understand what matters to them. 

Well, this is where it gets tricky. Right. Because, as you said, like, “oh, I'm hearing you talk about me”, which is both experiencing but also talking about the other. 

Yeah. So that's what I mean is separating those two. So you don't try to have that conversation while you're trying to find out what matters to both of you. 

Yes. 

And that you have those kinds of conversations at a time when you're low-stress. 

Yeah. So when you were saying, just so I understand, if it starts to get a little bit more challenging and you want to have, like, a meta conversation, and you said, what's happening for you? Will you give us an example of that? 

Again, let's return to the example of housework. 

So if someone's coming at you and saying, “Oh, my God, you're such a slob, and you need to start cleaning up. I'm. I'm so sick of dealing with you and making me responsible for you.” 

That you say, rather than coming back and on the level of strategy, because they're coming at you on strategy, “you should do this and this.” 

Rather than coming back, like, 

“No, I'm trying to do that because I'm doing this other thing or whatever it is you get to start. I'm dealing with all the bills, and how come I'm always? And I just got home”. 

And so then you're going back and forth, and if you have the wherewithal and the practice to start to say, like, 

“Okay, it sounds like you're really pissed off about how things have been running in terms of how we deal with the dishes and stuff like that. Right. 

So you're acknowledging. 

But acknowledging, like, yeah, it sounds like you're. 

“This isn't really. It is not working for you the way things are going with the dishes”. 

Right. 

Yes. I'm so sick of it. Okay, so here's what I'm experiencing around it. So that you first acknowledge what they are saying, and then, for one thing, that tends to disarm the attack mode. 

Yes. Yes.

And that might not be the moment to say, and I'm really tired of you telling me what to do. So then you're just getting. Then you're just starting a second conflict. 

Yes. 

In that moment, to say, 

“Okay, so let's have a conversation about how we're dealing overall with the household stuff, because I feel like we don't have clarity around who's doing what when”. 

“Yeah. So I feel like this keeps happening, that we start, like, getting into stress about it. So how about if we, like, sit down after dinner and, like, make a clearer plan for how we're gonna deal with it.”

And then there can be a conversation also, maybe later, when your nervous systems are down about when we started talking about the dishes, and you came at me telling me I was a slob. That felt really terrible. And it didn't help me understand what was going on. So in that moment, when we feel like that, I know it happens to me too. I'm curious what it would be like if we got used to it. With each other, to be looking at instead of saying things about what people are to say, really what you care about, what you're looking for, so that you start to have that conversation around what works for you and what doesn't work for you. I have a hard time. For example, sometimes people will say, “If you yell at me, I have a hard time hearing.” 

Yes. 

So when we're having a conversation, would it work for you? For us to, like, if you're really worked up and all you can do is yell, we'd take a five-minute break or something. What would work for you at that moment? 

Yes. 

So that you're starting to ask each other, 

“What do we each need at that moment? What works for us, what doesn't? And again, make a plan.” 

I love it. And so as I was hearing you, it's possible that. Help me if this sounds right, if I'm in a situation where I feel defensive, and my partner's coming at me, and I lead with just trying to hear him right. That disarms, and perhaps that could get us some footing and start shifting towards. What you're really laying out here is focusing on what matters. However, if I'm feeling too charged, I could say, “Oh, do the validation and then just acknowledge. Okay, I need a second. Right. I really want to have this productive conversation. And maybe I didn't sleep well, or I'm hungry, or what, you know, the kids are screaming, or what other things are. Can we talk in like 20 minutes? That'll give me time to breathe. Yeah. Okay, great. I love it”. 

So one thing is to differentiate between real curiosity and a real acknowledgement, and a kind of writing one, which tends to piss people off more. Like, I hear that you're angry, like that kind of thing. 

Oh, that sounds so patronizing. 

It does. And that's the problem with formulaic things. So eye language, as they say, is certainly helpful, but anything can be a weapon. 

Totally. 

So you can weaponize eye language. And so in that moment of acknowledgment, really, like a real acknowledgement, like, okay, it seems like you're really pissed off about this, and this is just not working for you. The way the dishes are being handled. Right. And not telling people what they think, but asking them, yes, such an important thing. 

And at the end there. Did I get that right? Is that right? 

Yeah, because otherwise you're like, okay, so you're angry. You're like, of course I'm angry. That's what I'm telling you. Yes. But if you say, “All right, ” it sounds like this whole situation's not working for you, and you're feeling really frustrated with it. Right. 

Does this come back, Dana, to the embodied that if one is distancing and maybe even having, like, attempting to reflect, I feel inside myself a distancing. Like, I don't really want to be a part of that, but I'll acknowledge it. But it feels so. I mean, some people could be potentially judgmental or whatever. But, it doesn't feel like in my body that I'm actually that open. The aperture of openness versus, as you're like, the language might not even be so clear. I might fumble around. But my intention and my openness are like, “Oh, okay, so you're talking about the dishes. This sounds really important. But you also seem to have strong feelings about this. Like, there's just an interest. Am I getting this?” 

Like, yeah. 

Do you feel like this is a body thing, too? 

Yeah, absolutely. Everything flows from intent. And the intent has. Has a physical, visceral quality to it. Willingness to connect. Jean Paul Lederach is a wonderful peacemaker. He talks about four things that help when there's a divided situation. And one of them is to be able to understand ourselves as being in relationship with our enemies and to be willing to be in relationship with our enemies and to know that we are and that intent that even with our loved ones we can like separate, back out and divide and get into that practice of like, all right, I had that little impulse there to like really jump back, put that wall down. But I'm going to not do that, and I'm going to connect consciously, not in a martyr way, but in a way like you just demonstrated there. And it doesn't matter if your language is wrong. It's not about the right language, but it's about the person who can immediately tell if you have some real curiosity and interest in hearing what's up for them. 

Yeah. 

And then they'll connect with you on that level. 

This may or may not suit your job. I'm thinking about attachment needs and people's attachment systems. So for one who grew up in an environment where it was better to turn away, where there wasn't safety in relationships, and it was better to self-resource or be independent. That there can often feel like, 

“Ooh, right. That's a huge risk and feels super scary to be open about what is important to me, or that I'm afraid of not being good enough or disappointing you.” 

So it's kind of one camp, and then the other camp, from an attachment needs perspective, is like, “Oh, I don't know if you're going to still be here.” Like,” I'm afraid of abandonment”, or “Are we still okay?”

Do you see that getting hooked and the conflicts that you help people try to get there? Or does that come out when you start looking at needs, like you said? 

Yeah. So I think the first thing in a conflict is to decide whether or not it's worth it and appropriate to get into it. Okay. And there might be a situation, like you say, that's not safe, and then it's not good to get into it. And at the same time, there may be a history that leads you to believe it's not safe when it would be safe. And so one thing that can be really helpful for people is to notice that we don't always have to talk about needs. It's not always appropriate, and it's not always helpful, but we can almost always talk about interests. So in the car example, the person might have needed autonomy, but on the interest level, they're looking for reliable transportation. And so that kind of area is very productive because it speaks from the level of needs, but it's not getting into too vulnerable a place if it's not appropriate. So you can almost always talk about interests if you've taken all the attack and defense out of it and described, for example, what it might look like if we've got some reliable transportation. Or let's talk about how we divide household tasks in a way that feels good for both of us. And the other thing is that we're not going to solve all our psychological problems together, but we can still do good work wherever we are in our journey. And so the more that we build up habits that allow us to direct either to that level of interest or the level of need if it makes sense, and we develop the ability to speak about what matters in a way that doesn't contain attack or defense, the more work we can do together and the more we can get through conflict, even if we haven't figured out our attachment problems and everything else, because we're all. Sometimes we're 18, sometimes we're 65, and we have different things going on, but we can still notice where attention is going. And if the way we have our attention focused is not helping, we can get curious about that. Like, “Oh, what am I paying attention to? What's it doing when I do that? What's the other person paying attention to?” 

What might it look like to reframe what we're talking about in a way that's between us, instead of being, again, this kind of volleying back and forth. 

Absolutely. I so appreciate your describing the structure as helpful and that we can slice it thinner, so to speak, to make it feel a little bit safer or a doable risk. To talk about interests. I want to hear a little bit more about how people can access that. And also, you're saying there's a depth here that being involved or could also not have to be fully processed or a part of the dynamic. But this framework and the principles are an incredibly supportive guide. 

Yeah, we don't have to do everything at once, but we can steadily notice that we're already practicing. That's the thing, that we're already shaping our mindset every day with what we pay attention to and what we choose to do. And we can, you know, gently, internally, notice what we're doing, decide consciously what we want to practice more. So the book that I just released, Conflict Is an Opportunity: Twenty Fundamental Decisions for Navigating Difficult Times. I framed it in terms of these 20 decisions. And these are decisions that we're always making in conflict, but we're often not making them consciously. And that, in terms of what you're asking around and how we can get more in the habit of orienting our attention toward interests, those kinds of decisions, which are framed also in terms of questions, can be a way that you can. 

It's the kind of book that you can open anywhere and just look at the list and be like, “Which one makes sense? Okay, I'm going to go there and just have a way of kind of shifting your attention and shifting your focus”. So, for example, what is my request in chapter three? And these are short chapters. And the reason a request is important is that a lot of times what we do is either just dump our emotion and our strategy on the other person, or we don't tell them what matters, and we just tell them that we're pissed off, or we make a demand. And the difference between demand and inquiry is huge. A demand, if you make it, the other person has two options. They can defy you, or they can comply, which is submissive. Right. And so I have the power. I'm like, this is the thing. You either defy me or you comply. But a request is like an information-gathering tool. And so even just the process for yourself of trying to define what your request might be can help you get connected to. Okay, what do I really want to see? What would that help with? So then you're doing the process we talked about before for yourself. Okay, this is what I would request. What would that help with? And that can help you go like, “Oh, right, because I'm looking for reliable transportation. When I was teaching, I used to start with needs, but it was so hard”. 

Yes. 

Because I mean, I know for myself. When I first started studying, I spent a year walking around silently, going, “What's my need?” Because we're not used to it. And now I usually start with emotion when we're analyzing things because we're like, that's available to us. We understand our emotions. Then we could say, “Okay, what is that emotion connected to? What is it speaking about? And the level of need?” So then you work backwards, or if you work from the request, then you can say, “Well, this is what I'd really like to see. Okay, why? What will that help with?” And that can help you get interested, and that can help you understand what your concerns are. So you can bring a topic up and say, “Hey, I want to talk about how we're dividing household tasks”. I feel like it feels kind of imbalanced to me, and I'm finding myself feeling resentment, and I don't want to be like that. So I'm wondering if we can sit down, make a request, sit down, and talk about, you know, what a plan would look like that would work for both of us. 

I love that the emotions help access the needs. And it sounds like maybe a request is one way to start accessing more of the interest that then gives. So when you were talking about your husband and wanting to get home by eight, you were saying that was the strategy. What would the interest be? 

The interest was having a sustainable schedule that allowed us time to spend together that wasn't under strain and under stress, that was like a need for intimacy. And this was a strategy that we'd both planned, but it didn't, you know, it wasn't really functional. But then I really became attached to it. I connected what I thought were the same thing, my need, and the strategy. And there were other, you know, other needs at play about safety and making sure that things are functioning long term economically, and kinds of things. So we had a very different conversation. 

Well, this is, I'm like signaling because this is what it often looks like in my experience in practice is that we might be able to have this win conversation and develop a joint strategy that perhaps we have to fine tune it, that I get new information or like, oh, I didn't recognize that part, or this is conflicting with another need that I have and I didn't anticipate that. And can we talk some more about it? So this is so powerful. So just to clarify, you talk about four fundamental elements to conflict, and you've talked about the need, the emotion, the interest, and the strategy. And the strategy is typically where we lead, and with perhaps strong emotion, without necessarily recognizing what the interests and the needs are. 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

Wonderful. 

And the good thing is that it gets easier and easier the more you focus your attention in that direction until it starts to just be automatic. 

Well, thanks for saying that, because that was my last question. Was it like, in your experience, as you see the people that engage with your work, do you see the trajectory of this and the learning curve around how they're able to develop a new kind of system? 

Yes, absolutely. And what I see is that at first it feels awkward, and people are like, 

“Oh, my God, it would take me a year and a half to have a conversation by the time I figure out what my needs are”. 

And then eventually the differentiation between strategy and needs gets cleared up, and then that just feels kind of much more obvious. And then it's a huge sense of relief because you're able to access, like, this level of curiosity about what's mattering. And what I find is people say it changes their conversation with their kids, with their partner, and it changes their conversation with themselves around what's going on. They don't kind of like, get obsessed about stuck in emotion or stuck in an idea about what somebody else should be doing, but they can more easily name what they care about, also recognizing which decisions are yours to make and which are somebody else's so that you are not stuck in what somebody else should be doing, but you're really taking responsibility for yourself. “Okay, here's my need. What are my decisions to make in relation to that? Have I made them consciously? What can I do consciously at this point?” 

Two comments really quickly. One is just how this can be so supportive in any domain that we're all in a relationship. Everything's a relationship. So whether or not it's in a professional space, like, even the conversation might fit more with the language of professionals. Like language, we might not get so deep and personal, but we're still able to access it. Oh, yeah, it's incredibly powerful, like, helping people move rather than getting stuck. And I can say so much more about this, but I wanted to comment on it. You mentioned your table of contents and of your book, and I was reading it, and I was like, “Oh, my gosh”. Like, just even the questions, like, I'm unaware that sometimes when we ask a different question, we'll get a different response, and it'll start to open something else up. Even your table of contents was so helpful. 

So tell people how people can get your book or get connected to what you're offering. 

Yeah, so my book is the music book called Conflict is an Opportunity. Twenty Fundamental Decisions for Navigating Difficult Times. And you can buy that wherever you buy your books. My first book that I mentioned is called Changing the 17 Principles of Conflict Resolution. And both work very well together. The first is kind of this principle-based thing that you can connect to and be like, okay, right. And the second book is okay. And as you're trying to do that, what can help you gain more clarity around what you're doing? And it's not about getting the right method, but really about having clarity internally about what you're doing, what you might do, what you want to do. I have a website, it's danacasperson.com, and you can see there I have different offerings, different courses, and I have a TED Talk you can check out. Conflict is a Place of Possibility. It's called. And yeah, I'm really grateful to have the chance to talk to you and your listeners. 

Oh my goodness. Thank you for your time. It's been such a pleasure. And I can greatly appreciate the wealth of your experience and training and what you bring. And I'll put the link for your TED Talk on your website, and for people who are interested in maybe taking a workshop or a course with you, and also the links to your two books. 

Okay, great. Thank you so much. It's been such a pleasure.