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In a world that often glorifies rugged individualism, finding real connection and mutual growth with others can feel elusive, especially when it comes to our closest relationships. The secret ingredient might just be what so many overlook: genuine collaboration—both at home and beyond. What if the key to thriving wasn’t “doing it all yourself,” but learning how to truly work together?

In this episode, you’ll discover how building circles of collaboration can transform your personal relationships, family dynamics, and even your broader social and professional connections. Through real-life stories and practical strategies, you’ll learn why trust, curiosity, and deep listening are so essential for building fulfilling partnerships. You’ll also hear how taking intentional steps—like active listening, sharing vulnerability, and nurturing supportive communities—can help you experience more connection, resilience, and joy in every area of your life.

Leslie Grossman is a trailblazer in leadership, and professional and career development for women. She is an accomplished executive coach, keynote speaker, researcher, serial entrepreneur and co-founder of the Women’s Leadership Exchange, the first national conference program for women based on collaborative leadership. She is faculty director of Executive Women’s Leadership at The George Washington University – Center for Excellence in Public Leadership. Leslie’s latest book, “Circles of Collaboration”, reveals the time-tested method of harnessing one’s success and fulfillment on the principles of collaboration, trust, generosity and communication.

Episode Highlights

06:27 Navigating leadership roles and collaboration in relationships.

08:21 Intentionality in creating circles of collaboration.

10:33 The power of deep listening and curiosity in partnership.

14:38 Building meaningful connections through intentional questions.

17:40 Vulnerability, trust, and support systems in relationships.

20:27 Generosity, active listening, and expanding your circles.

25:28 Collaborative exchanges and asking for support.

28:24 Negotiating imperfect collaboration and relationship expectations.

31:06 Bringing up important issues: Timing and communication.

34:17 The impact of collaborative relationships and taking action.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Divide and conquer roles: In partnerships, clearly designate leaders for different areas, but always ensure communication and final decisions respect collaboration and listening.
• Practice deep listening: Be intentional about giving your full attention to your partner or colleague; don’t interrupt or assume you know what they’ll say.
• Ask curious questions: Show genuine interest by asking open-ended questions about feelings, experiences, and perspectives to foster connection.
• Build multiple circles of collaboration: Develop relationships beyond your intimate partnership—think family, friends, work, and community circles—to enrich your support network.
• Be intentional with connection: Choose to initiate deeper conversations with those you care about, rather than keeping interactions at a surface level.
• Cultivate generosity: Offer your time and listening ear generously; seek ways to support others, such as facilitating introductions or sharing helpful resources.
• Keep track of important issues: If topics arise that feel uncomfortable to discuss, jot them down and revisit them when the timing is better; don’t let them slip away.
• Let go of perfection: Accept that not all relationships or collaborations will be perfectly reciprocal; allow space for difference and focus energy on relationships that foster growth and mutual support.

Mentioned

Circles of Collaboration (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

ERP 301: How an Entrepreneur Couple Can Negotiate Love and Business Successfully — An Interview with Dr. Ellyn Bader

12 Relationship Principles to Strengthen Your Love (free guide)

Connect with Leslie Grossman

Website:Lesliegrossmanvision.com

YouTube:youtube.com/channel/UCqjD0Y4L0XVjzixocEsO8kw

Instagram:instagram.com/lesliegrossmanvision

LinkedIn:linkedin.com/in/lesliegrossmanleadership

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Leslie, thank you for joining us. 

Thank you for inviting me. I am so excited about our conversation. 

Me too. And so circle of collaboration, something you develop, and you have a co-founder or co-author? 

I have a co-author, yes. Christine. 

Yes. And I know the principles of this are so aligned with just the relationship. And as we focus here on the Empowered Relationship Podcast, on the intimate space. But this can be applied to any relationship. Where would you like to start, around how this became of interest, and how you developed this? 

I always knew the last 25 years at least, that great things happen when we work together and we listen to each other, and we collaborate together and create marketing space. But then for the last 15 years, I've been an executive coach and very focused on leadership development and teams. And so, collaboration, the most effective teams are collaborative teams. And I also noticed with my own and my friends, husbands and wives, all the collaborators, that when they collaborated, they had the best relationships. So collaboration was a keyword for me for a long time. 

But as I've been in the area of career development, I realized that if we have circles of collaboration around us, different groups, whether it's maybe it's your nonprofit group, maybe it's your team at work, maybe it's your girlfriends, maybe it's your family, those are all circles where the most effective and happiest people are those that are collaborating. So that's kind of how the whole thing developed is to start looking at it not as individuals, but as circles. But the core of it is your collaboration at home. Right. With your partner. And so when you learn how to do that, well, you take it to all your other circles as well. 

Absolutely. 

That's how it evolved. And Christine and I have been talking about it. It's kind of been a core of my work, but she started applying it in her own life. And then she's the one who said we really have to write a book about this and bring it to everybody. So we work together to write the book about it. And I teach it in all the courses that I do, and asking people to apply it to their relationships. And our core relationship is most likely, and we hope it is our partner. 

Absolutely. So we're in a relationship. How we do relationships is important. And there's a difference here between. You're contrasting collaboration versus maybe other forms of relating. 

Yes. I mean, you know, where there's a relationship where somebody's in charge. Right. And the boss. I don't know. That's your area, Jessica. So I'm not going to go there. Except to know that in personal relationships, there are reasons why some work very well and some don't work as well. And I in my own life, 

Really? Yes. 

Wow. 

We saw how they listened to each other and didn't tell each other what to do all the time, but really listened and came up with solutions together. Wow. 

I'm so glad you had that modeling. And also congratulations on the continual development in your marriage and how long you've been together. And it's just such a fruit of your efforts, I'm sure, just what you've both invested. And this is important. So when we look at someone being in the lead, there are ways in which a leader can be in service of the good of all of everyone involved, which many of us would deem as typically more positive. And then there's leadership, which is we're doing this more of the domineering, I guess. And that can happen in a relationship. And I wonder what you would think about that. Are there hybrids around? Maybe some. 

If we look at an intimate relationship where someone might be a bit more in the lead in certain domains, but be in service, there's collaboration that happens to support that, or because sometimes it takes a lot of effort. 

Right. 

I interviewed someone, her name is Ellen Bader, she's out of Menlo Park, California. And she was talking about entrepreneurial couples, as do you have an entrepreneurial background here? And she was saying 50/50 decisions are more effort, like it just takes more energy to be 50. But sometimes it can be helpful for one to have a little bit more agency. But obviously in the service of what both. If we're talking about a couple, what both people need and want. 

Yes, absolutely. When it comes to entrepreneurial relationships. And I actually have. Have coached quite a few partners, and they're not always married, by the way. They might just be partners in the business. Right. And one of the things that I always coach them on is divide and conquer. You are the leader in this area, listen to each other, and take it in. But when it comes to the final action, whoever is the leader gets the say after you've listened carefully to each other. And I believe that the same thing happens with couples, whether it's not a business, but that sometimes someone is a leader in every area. And it's a good idea in some cases. Right. But still  

Yes. And find out where they're coming from so that it's not. 

I'm going to do this no matter what you think I'm going to. Let's hear, let's hear how we both feel about it. And then I'll take the lead. Unless you want to take the lead in this.

Well, Leslie, this is so important because as I'm listening, I'm thinking, well, yes, because if one person's preferences and interests are dominating, then the relationship is more of an expression of the one, not both. And for the relationship to be life-giving and sustainable. Right. We want to have that be in service of all parties. So you said something a moment ago when we were starting to talk about collaboration, and I know in your book, you and Christine talk about how some people do this circle of collaboration intuitively or have some sense of it, but it sounds like you both are really recommending being intentional. 

Yes. 

Can you say more about how that's important, and then for people just to orient a little bit more, would you be willing to define how you see, you gave a frame. Would you. Is there a way you want to define circles of collaboration, like what they are? 

Yes. I mean, let's just talk about your couple. That's one circle. Right. “Your family is a Circle.” And that's probably because it's a family, the two dominant members are the parents, and also there are the brothers and sisters, and other people. But within your own little domain, it's the two of you. 

Have you observed that too? 

Well, what's interesting, and this might fit with what you're describing, is that as humans, we tend to automate. And so if we know someone or have been around someone, we almost by default are like, I know them, or I get them. And so you shortchange the process of like really deeply listening. 

Maybe. I agree, that's. I think you're absolutely right. You think you know what they're going to say, right? So we interrupt them. We don't even often let them have their say because we're already thinking about how we're going to defend ourselves in our heads rather than listen to what our partner has to say. Listen, I even find myself doing it now. Here I am. This is a concept, this is, I've been, I teach people how to do this, particularly business people. And I catch myself, and I think that's the whole thing. We have to kind of catch ourselves, catch ourselves to say, 

Am I giving the person the chance to say how they feel? 

Am I truly listening to them? 

Am I being curious about why they feel this way?

 
Curiosity, I think, is another really important part of this, not only asking them,

How do you feel about that? 

Why do you feel that way? 

What's happened to you that makes you feel that way?

Bringing curiosity to any relationship, be it a personal relationship, a business relationship, anything, makes it more powerful and allows you to be able to collaborate fully because you get to hear the whole story. Why is this person feeling this way? And for us to jump in and have a solution without hearing them out is just, well, I want to just say it's wrong, make anybody wrong, but we're not bringing value to that person, not coming up with something that we both can be happy with, or at least satisfied with. 

Absolutely. I mean, I'm thinking, as you said, teams, and also I want to stay focused on an intimate relationship. But it's almost relationship stopping when we don't listen. And we already know we're almost self-referencing and just prioritizing our voice. Conversely, listening, getting interested, drawing out more of the perspective, how this matters, and why it's important is an actual relationship. That's like living, participating in a relationship. I don't know if you would agree. And then my second thought is the diversity that comes from having differences of perspective that tends to strengthen. We look at all systems, nature, and various aspects. They're stronger when there's more diversity. And similarly in couplehood, we don't want to marry or be partnered with ourselves. Like, that's not super interesting, right? 

Yeah. 

How complimentary. Or there could be strengths in having more perspectives. I'm curious what you would say. 

Yeah, I think that. That I hadn't really thought about it that way, to tell you the truth. But agree with you. It makes a more interesting relationship and more value. A better family, a better couple. And say, you know, I didn't understand why you wanted to do that, but now that you tell me that, oh, I get it now, I see why you want to take that kind of action. And I'm not 100% comfortable with it yet, but I could, you know, let's talk about it some more. And I think that is true in any kind of relationship, be it a personal relationship with someone you're in a couple with, in a business, or anywhere you go. I think certain principles make every relationship stronger and build trust. And I think trust is the other. It's like three words that I always think of. 

No kidding. And one way I'm hearing what you're describing, Leslie, is that if we are learning from our partner, that essentially it might, or just in any context, it offers an opportunity for us to grow, that maybe there are parts of us that are underdeveloped or we just don't have strength in. And that if we're willing to get outside or contemplate even someone's voice, that might open up or grow. That would. If the person or the initiative, if you will. 

We tend to be advice givers. We want to tell people what to do. We have good advice. Sure. But maybe the person just wants to be heard. Yes. 

Well, you have some key points. I want to dive in a little bit more. I don't want to move away too far. First, though, of the intentionality. Is there a way to be more intentional about creating a circle of collaboration? 

Absolutely. 

Would you be willing to say more? 

Yeah, I absolutely would. Let's look at our different circles. The family circle, we've got, the girlfriend circle we've got, maybe the office circle we've got, religious, spiritual circle. And a lot of times, those relationships can be very surface relationships. So what we can do is ask people who mean a lot to us for deeper conversations and really get to know them in a deeper way. That is, I think, what we need to do to create a world around us that gives us fulfillment; all our relationships are really saying, tell me about your work. What are you doing? What are you making a difference? Tell me, what do you love about it? You know, just really asking more questions. 

I love what you're saying. I'm giggling because I met with a client yesterday. Well, she was one of my many, but she was talking about a first date, and it was going relatively well. And it was like, tell me something you've been proud of or something that you're working on. And I was like, I love that. I mean, it's a way to prompt. 

Exactly. I think if we could do that with many of our relationships, we would make them much more fulfilling. And not everybody will participate in that, by the way. No, because they're going, what? I don't really want to go there. But that's how you find out who's truly in your circle of collab. Yeah. That's because those are the people who want to have a deeper relationship, that they're. Wow. You want to know about that, and then it allows you.

Wow. 

Well. And this fits with the trust, I'm sure. So I listen a lot for my work and supporting people, and I'm genuinely interested. And I love people, so I love hearing. And I don't mind talking either. In social relationships, people sense that I'm listening more than maybe the average person, so they'll sometimes share. And then there are times where people will ask me really poignant questions because they've been listening. It feels so good to have somebody remember or pick something of significance and be prompted to learn more. And so if I'm hearing you correctly, Leslie, you're saying, pay attention and with intentionality, that if there are people that you're gonna field the ball, like playing catch. Right. You're actually having this exchange that deepens. Then you can maybe perhaps choose to spend more time or cultivate those relationships, investing in them. 

Exactly. I'll give you an example of one that happened to me. 

Yeah. 

She's been a friend of mine for 25 years. Okay. We were both business owners. We were in an organization for women business owners. Together, which is all about helping each other in business and that sort of thing. But in a conversation with her, she was asking me questions. We were having a nice conversation. It was pretty superficial. But she said, “Leslie, you look like you're not having the things are not so good day today. What's on your mind? I said, well, you know, I'm having challenges with my son. She had a son, whom I didn't know. So she said, tell me about it. You know, I've been through things with my son, too.” 

 
We ended up having this conversation where I told her very heartfelt things that were going on, and she was able to then give me insights about her experience with her son, which I could apply in my case. And she was absolutely right because I took her insights. It was not her saying, do this, do that. She said, here's what I did and how it made a difference. I took what I heard and applied it. Let me just say, many years later, both our sons are doing great, but our relationship took a deep dive. And we have been helping each other in business ever since that day. 

Wow. 

The trust was built. And it started with her noticing that I was not looking like I was having a good day, and me being willing to be vulnerable. 

Absolutely. Thank you for sharing that story. And it just illuminates these choice moments that we could lean in or lean out, and what's possible. Like these moments that can have such a profound impact, and that there's support for you. Sometimes, people, family difficulties, or even, especially with intimate relationships, feel so private or even feel some shame or uncertainty. And it's like, I don't know if anyone else is going through this. So it can feel like we're walking around with this and feel alone. And yet a lot of these things are very universal. And people have been through. And to feel, again, not the recommendation of here's what you should do, but some sharing of like, you're not alone. There's something that I found helpful. And if there's some resonance there after that conversation, you were better off for having taken that risk. 

Absolutely. And if I could also add, because even my husband and I were dealing with it, but he didn't really know what to do either. And that happens with couples. Right.

Agreed. 

You know, we need support around us in our personal lives as well as our professional lives. And the more we open up to that, I think the better, the happier, and more fulfilled we can all be. And that does not take away from our one-to-one relationship at all. 

No, I absolutely agree with you. And the thing that I'm thinking here is absolutely that we need community. We need relationships in various forms and the health and strength of those relationships. I'm reminded, like just the classic. In different traditions, often there's some recognition of the community supporting the couple. And that is a component of the bigger systems. And as you said, the thought that I was thinking here was that it's bidirectional that when the couple system is functioning and having this collaboration, it can benefit others, the children, the extended family, the friends, the community. I mean, we can be in the world and be uplifted and be of service more when our strength and our primary bond are operating well. And then other circles are benefited, and conversely, when we're maybe not feeling so strong, the circles can. External. 

I don't know if I'm thinking externally, but I am thinking of a primary circle. But those other circles can benefit the couple bond. 

Yes. It goes in multiple directions. 

Right, got it. 

Yeah, for sure. And I think that another place in terms of intentionality, if someone feels that they don't have that support, think about what you care about and what matters to you that you're not involved in. Is there an organization that helps children or fights a disease or whatever that you're concerned about? Reach out, become part of another. Create another opportunity for you to be part of another circle. And I think for us to be. Sometimes we're too dependent on our family or our one-to-one relationship, and think we could get everything from that person, but we can't. And to have that kind of expectation is unfair to that person. And that's why I think these circles of collaboration are also so important. 

Because we can be fulfilled by many different things, and we can contribute to others as well as they can contribute to us. And by doing that, we can be more satisfied with our one-to-one private relationship. 

I absolutely agree. There seems to be a generative nature to the circles of collaboration. You've spoken about trust, and you gave a personal story around how this potentially can be developed. Right. If we take a risk and somebody responds or somebody sees us, and we have that exchange, we can deepen the trust. And you also talk about generosity. Would you be willing to share a little bit more with people listening around on how to develop more trust and generosity? 

Well, I think it's fairly simple but complicated for people to actually execute. But it's got simple principles, and it really just starts with reaching out to people. And I think that in this age that we're in right now, where everybody's used to everything so fast. Right. Cell phone, I mean, you're texting, you're this. And I tell my clients as well as, you know, reach out to one person every week, somebody that you haven't talked to, but you always cared about, and start to ask them about themselves, hear about their life, and then be listening, truly listen to how you could maybe support them in some way. That's generosity. I think listening is generosity. You know, I mean, often people feel nobody listens to me. I think a lot of people feel that way. 

I agree. 

They feel alone, and they are uncomfortable sharing. I mean, I got lucky, right? That day that I shared. But that's because somebody actually asked me the question. And so I think that we have to be curious about people and say, how are things in your family? How are the kids? How is your job? I mean, not all at one time, and say I really want to hear. I really want. I mean, let them know you want to hear. 

That's number one in feeling generous: listening to people. 

Yeah. In a world that nobody. Everybody's in a hurry. And then being able to ask the question, is there a way I could support you? Do you need to meet someone? They're looking for a job. What are you looking for? Tell me more about that. 

Maybe there's someone I know that I could connect you with. You know, what other things are you interested in asking questions about? Those are all signs of generosity, I think. So those are not the typical things that you would think of. Right. When you say being generous. But it is giving of your time, giving of your listening, giving of your willingness to make a connection. Some people hold onto things and don't want them. Well, I don't want to introduce them to that because that's my friend. 

Right. 

No, let's not feel that way. They might have a great connection, and that's not going to leave you out. So we have to. Those are all the different kinds of generosity that I think of and that I try to share with people and encourage them to do. 

You know, it's interesting, you were saying simple, and it feels so human. And yet 

And I'm in a new location. We're just a year into where we're currently living, and it's a smaller community, less than a hundred thousand. I think it's like maybe 60,000. And it's going to take some intentionality. I play beach volleyball, I go to yoga, and I'm meeting people. And the level of connection that I thrive in, it might take some real intentionality around, as you said, thinking about what matters to me and choosing to engage in those things or invest in those things. So thank you for just the reminder. 

That's so basic, but also, like, we can lose touch with it because we're feeling the demands of life or feel out of touch with this. I mean, there are a lot of articles about how to meet friends as an adult. Like, it's, you know, it's not as curated for us. It tends to take. But to have this as some framework. And the other thing that I'm thinking here, Leslie, as you talk about the generosity, even when you were saying, Oh, how can I help? I could feel that people get a little tight around. Like, I'm already strapped for time. Like if I make these calls or listen takes time. 

But then, perhaps, and I'm curious what you would say, there might be an investment of time, and perhaps one could put some parameters, like, I have half an hour, I have 40 minutes, or an hour that I can give to this call or want to invest, but that it doesn't stop there. That perhaps might come back. 

Right. 

Like, there's this exchange. It's not just, oh, I'm giving, and then that's the end of the story, as if it is generative. Then can you say more? 

Yeah, well, that's the collaboration part. Right. Okay. Like, you know, it's okay. I'm giving, and I'm getting to know this person, but then I'm also identifying some things we have in common. And I'm saying, wow, you are involved in this. I would love to get more involved in that. Or I'd like to learn more about that. Or that's an area where I'd like to meet people. Could you maybe? Could I come along with you when you go do that? Because sometimes we have to prompt people to be more generous. But that's okay. We ask. And that's another thing that we feel uncomfortable asking for ourselves. Right. 

But, being little by little, just seeing that if you're connected and you have that commonality asking, we have to get a little uncomfortable, get comfortable with being a little uncomfortable until we see it as it's okay. 

Some people have scripts, social scripts. Right. As you said, keep things a bit more on the surface. And sometimes things are transactional. Right. I do this for you. You do this where you have a carpool. We have an agreement that can work. And then there's this collaboration with intentionality. Do you ever have, like, encourage people to say, we have an agreement to meet? I think you had talked about even that for certain circles, there's a frequency, there's an attention to the nurturing of the circle. But my question, the backdrop of my question is like, for people listening, some people will say, well, I have certain friends, and some are more givers, some are a little bit more takers. 

And I don't know that I want to really enter into a circle of collaboration with someone that haven't experienced them to be very willing to give back, or even somebody listening that they tend to operate more collaboratively, and their partner doesn't always participate. Would you say a little bit about how to negotiate this? 

Well, life is not perfect.

Life is not perfect. 

But. Not everybody's going to be part of that circle of collaboration. They can still be your friend. Yeah. They can still be your partner, you know, and it's okay. But my feeling is, don't be without having a circle of collaboration. But not everybody's going to be that. 

So it's almost made possible when you have the circles of collaboration to engage in these other relationships that maybe aren't collaborative, that you could still feel buoyant, you could still feel available for that. And even one who is not experiencing collaboration in their intimate relationship, if they have other circles that they feel supported by, perhaps they can still make attempts and participate, even if their partner's not reciprocating or responding. And you're saying it's okay. 

Yeah, I think it is Okay. 

I love that. Do you think it's still helpful to take? Make attempts, like, especially with an intimate partner? 

Sure. 

Okay. 

Yeah. Let me tell you, all these years, my husband has not collaborative on everything. 

Right. 

But some things he is, and that's fine. In some ways, it's Okay. I don't really want him to be part of that anyway. It's okay. Yeah. Gonna be my thing, you know, and it's okay. So I think, you know, we gotta give up perfection, right? Yeah. We honor ourselves particularly. Yes. Which is a big thing when I'm working with women. I have them all give up something. What are you going to give up this week that you feel has to be so perfect? Could be something about yourself that you're. Maybe it's at work. One woman said to me, I didn't pick up anything in the house all week. I just let everything lie there. The kids, they complained to me. I said, no, you want it picked up? Go ahead, pick it up. She did nothing for a week. 

She said it was one of the best weeks of my life. I love it. No collaboration, but it's okay. And she said, well, we're going to do it after that week, she says, if you like it that way, we're going to do it together. 

I love it. There's some teaching and learning there around. 

Yeah. 

Shifting the dynamic. 

Yeah. 

Great. Well, thank you. Because I do think that different systems require different skill sets. And if we have this orientation towards collaboration, how to show up for that and the health and benefits of that, and also, there might be certain circumstances where we can be more proactive, work with the system of maybe hierarchy in a way that's more collaborative. I think there might be a way to do that. But I love that. Thank you for speaking to that. Okay. I know we don't have a ton of time, so let me ask you. You and Christine talk about the importance of being heard, and you've talked a lot about listening. Is there anything you want to say about this topic and the importance of it in communication? 

What I would say about that is a lot of times we have things that we want to say, but we just pass over, and we just say, no, I'm not going to bring it up. No, I'm not going to bring it up. I think,

Not lose it. 

Not lose it, exactly. Not lose it. Because sometimes we'll let it. We don't bring it up, and then it's six months later, and it's rearing its ugly head again. And we need to keep that list and not bring it all up at the same time, but look for the opportunities or create the opportunities. To sit down and talk about those things and whether it's going for a walk together and just saying, you know, which is, I think, a great way. 

I do too. You're not sitting in a room and, like, facing each other. You're, like, together and you're out in nature or even somewhere with trees, like ideally. 

Exactly, exactly. That's when I have the best conversations with my husband. 

Same. 

There are no distractions. Except for the beauty of nature. Right? 

Yeah. 

Otherwise, there are always distractions. So I think that's when you say, okay, this is one issue that I really been wanting to talk about. And we don't make the other person wrong. We talk about. Well. And you know how to do that. You're the goddess on this. I know. On how to bring out these conversations. I was a psych major, but I did not get my PhD in psychology, so I know just enough to be dangerous. 

No, no, this is important. You're setting the stage. I mean, if I'm tying this back and thanking you just for acknowledging my efforts in training. But when we bring this back to being heard and being in service of that, you're saying, don't just brush stuff under the rug. Hold it and timing. And can you bring it up in a way that is not alarming or attacking or this harsh startup, as the Gottmans would talk about. Can we have the other thing about walking is we're engaging our system in more regulation through breathing and moving, that we're not sitting in a more constricted posture, like were supporting regulation. And then bringing it up, and one topic. Right. Setting it up. And then that potentially increases the likelihood that we could be heard. 

Exactly. In fact, I can recall, and this was just a few weeks ago, when my husband and I were taking a walk. I said to him, I can't remember what the issue is anymore. But I started to say I really wanted to talk to you about this. And he said, that's exactly what I wanted to talk to you about. 

Great. 

But he would never have brought it. 

Yes. 

So, by me bringing it up, a lot of times we have the same issue. 

Yeah. 

And I think, at least in my case, my husband is less likely to bring it up than I am. He'll just bite his tongue. But then it doesn't get resolved. 

No. And you're modeling, as you even talked about having the benefit of parents that modeled this, that there's a bit more trust perhaps in the process. And this is your work. 

Right. 

You've done so much to support people and really practice this and flex these muscles of collaboration. So I imagine there's a deep-felt trust that you have in the process. Is that right? 

That's true. Yeah, absolutely. Wonderful. 

Well, I know I had a few more questions, but is there anything else you want to say before we wrap up? 

Well, we covered an awful lot, and thank you for, you know, really a great conversation. I mean, I think this whole idea of having circles of collaboration around you, not depending just on a small circle, family circle, is really important. And using that, the tools that I've actually developed to use professionally, but they certainly apply very much personally. 

Yes. 

So I really just urge people to really think about it, consider it, try it out, and just

I mean, I probably would have used trusted circles, but trust is used a lot out there in the world, and trust is a very important part of it. But I like the collaboration because it means two people are working together. 

I do, too. 

Happiness, a solution, address a problem, whatever. And so I urge everybody to just look at their own life and say, where could my life use a little more collaboration and trust? 

 
No kidding. And I do love the word collaboration because, as you said, it allows for this working together that trust could. But it maybe doesn't have to be that we're doing anything other than trusting each other, like the collaboration as we are engaged. And that's something that, as you are talking about your work and how it applies to business and various domains of life. But being able to work together, to negotiate a challenge. 

Right. 

We didn't really dive into that today, but that is something that collaboration can really assist with, negotiating conflict or a difficulty shifting from the me mindset to the we mindset. Like, there's a lot of layers here. Well, I so appreciate your time. And how do people get your book and what you're teaching, and connect to you? 

Oh, well, thank you very much for asking. So the book Circles of Collaboration is available through all the usual places that you get your books. And also I do a. I have a worksheet that I use with my groups and with my clients, and it is how to get your start looking at your circles of collaboration. So if anyone would like that, they could email me. I'd be happy to email them that worksheet for them to begin to look at their circles of collaboration and start developing them more strongly. And they can reach me at l

lesliegrossmanleadership.com, so I'm happy to send it to anyone who would like it. 

Oh, thank you. That's generosity right there. Thank you. And you have a website, it sounds like? 

Yes, it's called Leslie Grossman Vision. Com. I also talk a lot about vision, but not today. 

I can see how it fits. It's beautiful. And what might they find on that website? 

Well, there's a lot of information about what I call, like, the seven tenets of leadership, which are the things that we all need to strive for, not just being a leader of a group, but being a leader of our own life. And that's really what I mean. I am a leadership coach, but I really believe that

Oh, yes. Wonderful. Well, I'll make sure to put the link to your website in some of the places to get your book, as well as your email, for people who want to email you to get this worksheet. And again, I am so grateful for your time here today. 

Oh, well, thank you so much, Jessica. This was really a great conversation, and I love a great conversation. 

Me too.