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Are you chasing every gold star, climbing every ladder, and nailing every “right” mark—only to find yourself missing out on real fulfillment and meaningful connection? The relentless pursuit of achievement can sometimes leave us feeling lonely, disconnected from ourselves, and trapped in relationships that don’t truly nourish our hearts. When ambition runs amok, the cost may be far greater than just burnout or missed vacation days—it can lead to self-abandonment and relationships that feel more like a cage than a home.

In this episode, you’ll discover how overachievement and perfectionism can sabotage our capacity for genuine connection—and what it takes to turn things around. Through honest storytelling and practical insight, the conversation explores the hidden costs of self-abandonment and the steps toward reclaiming self-worth, authenticity, and aligned love. Whether you’re feeling the grind of burnout or yearning for more realness in your relationships, you’ll gain tools for slowing down, getting honest with yourself, and opening up to relationships that feel like home.

Coach Keren Eldad is an Executive Coach, Speaker, podcast host and the Author of the new book: GILDED – Breaking Free from the Cage of Ambition, Perfectionism and the Relentless Pursuit of More.

Episode Highlights

06:18 The roots of self-abandonment: Overachievement and relationship choices.

09:12 Societal pressure and the pursuit of external validation in partner selection.

10:27 Personal story: From self-betrayal to reconstructing identity and worth.

16:07 Building healthy love: The learning curve toward self-connection in relationships.

20:39 Embracing uncertainty: Letting go of control and playing to win in relationships.

26:56 Yellow flags in relationships: Burnout, overfunctioning, and sexless marriages.

31:29 Radical honesty and initiating difficult conversations.

35:51 Centering yourself before addressing relationship issues.

39:54 Tools, coaching, and the path to authentic relationships.

Your Check List of Actions to Take

• Pause and self-reflect: Practice taking a mindful pause before reacting in relationships to better understand your true feelings and needs.
• Identify your patterns: Bring awareness to tendencies like overachieving or people-pleasing that may be impacting your connections.
• Prioritize self-worth: Work on recognizing and affirming your own worth, rather than relying on external validation or achievement.
• Start small conversations: When something feels off in your relationship, gently broach the subject with curiosity rather than jumping into confrontation.
• Read for growth: Incorporate reading transformational books by thought leaders to cultivate self-awareness.
• Seek support: Consider working with a coach or therapist to dig deeper into your personal growth and relationship patterns.
• Practice radical honesty: Begin being radically honest with yourself about what you want and how you feel, as self-abandonment only perpetuates dissatisfaction.
• Accept uncertainty: Learn to embrace the unknown in relationships, allowing space for vulnerability and authentic connection rather than controlling outcomes.

Mentioned

Gilded: Breaking Free from the Cage of Ambition, Perfectionism, and the Relentless Pursuit of More (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Mating in Captivity: Unlocking Erotic Intelligence (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

The Way of Integrity: Finding the Path to Your True Self *Amazon link (book)

Dare to Lead (*Amazon link) (book)

Marry Him: The Case for Settling for Mr. Good Enough (*Amazon link) (book)

The Work of Byron Katie (website)

Brene Brown (website)

Eckhart Tolle (website)

Ram Dass (website)

Louise Hay (website)

ERP 494: Designing Love That Lasts: 6 Principles for Lasting Connection — An Interview with Dr. Sara Nasserzadeh

ERP 174: How to Experience More Love in Your Relationship with Byron Katie

12 Relationship Principles to Strengthen Your Love (free guide)

Connect with Keren Elded

Websites: KerenEldad.com

Facebook: facebook.com/LiveWithEnthusiasm?_rdc=1&_rdr#

YouTube: youtube.com/channel/UCgGViwGVn_yrHkq3PQ9R_-Q

Instagram: instagram.com/coachkeren/?hl=en

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/keren-eldad

Podcast: podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/coached-with-coach-keren/id1467079024

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Keren, thank you for joining us. 

Jessica, it's so nice to be here with you. 

Yes, I am really interested in all the things you're going to share with us today. I know you focus a lot on working with people who are overachievers, maybe dealing with burnout, or really struggling to feel the level of authenticity. And then specifically as we look at relationships, real intimate connections, and feeling joy. Where would you like to start about how this is important to you? Like, how did you become focused on it? I know you share a lot in your book. You're welcome to name your book here, too, if you'd like. 

Yeah, well, I came by my work and my book gilded very honestly by knowing on my own flesh what it's like to be an overachiever who hits the right marks, quote unquote, again and again, only to miss entirely our target, which is a happy life that feels good. From the inside, and today it's my mission to help other people. 

I do have an agenda, and I told you this unapologetically when we connected at the beginning of this conversation as we're about to record. And that is, I'd love any excuse to talk about relationships. 

 
Because while overachievers pay a very high price in their careers, they too pay a very high price in their health when they chase the wrong targets and let their ambition run amok, the biggest by far price that we pay and that I paid personally was in selecting the wrong partner and ending up in horrific and I'm not using hyperbole marriages, which I believe is a fate worse than death in many cases. So it's my joy to have a chance to really talk about how that happens and about why that happens, and then also about the antithesis, as you might be able to see if you're watching the YouTube. I am remarried. And while this sounds a little overcompensating, I think this is the best marriage ever in the whole world. I totally stand by it. And I think everybody deserves this. 

Like, once you have something like this and you understand the mechanics of what built this, you want everyone to know. So it's a real joy to have the chance to talk about this from this exact angle. Jessica, thanks. 

Yes, and I love that you have such conviction. I can feel it here as you describe. And also just your expertise, as you really coach people, and you've been helping people understand these principles in a really distilled way. But you've lived it, and you know it viscerally. And I would add, I also work with a lot of very high functioning probably identify with the overachiever label. And some of them do imagine there's a continuum of how their relationships are impacted. And one person comes to mind, he and his wife have a really beautiful marriage, but it compromised his health. It's compromised, like what he's had to do professionally. And also, there are ways in which perhaps it restricted his ability to be available for the intimate connection and relationship because of perhaps the expenditures of trying to reach these targets that you're describing. 

Or perhaps other people just aren't as embodied, they're not as connected to themselves. Thus, they're not able to perhaps be in a relationship to experience the joy and intimacy, sexual connection, all of these things. So where would you like to start? Because this is, let me say, really quickly, would you agree that it's not only choosing the wrong partner? 

But also that, of course, there's something that happens before choosing the wrong partner. 

Now I want to talk about both parts equally because essentially they're both the same. One is the desire to compromise from a place that is over-functioning. All overachievers really are just intensely focused. That's what I mean by overachiever. So you can be a perfectionist, you can be a true overachiever. A person who's achieved above and beyond, and so forth. You can be an exceptional tulip grower or a hyper-focused mom. 

Either way, the intensity of focus, the natural obsessiveness, is truly what segregates this category from any other. So when the target is off, and you feel that you need to compromise your relationship, or the real issue is the embodiment is off, we somehow have self-loathing. They're all the same, and they're all a question of not understanding our worth. And when we don't understand our worth, we make very poor choices. We make low-grade choices versus high-grade choices. As a result, we end up in relationships that are, and I really love by the way, your last episode that was promoted with Dr. Sara, “ Name a relationship that is not reciprocal. Relationships do not have to be equal, but they do have to be reciprocal.” And I completely agree with that. 

When they are not reciprocal, it's because something's off with you. It's something that you're not able to receive for yourself because you don't believe subconsciously that you deserve to believe it. And so what you're going to do is overcompensate in one of two ways. By over-accommodating another or by over-straining yourself. This is incorrect English, but really trying way too hard to accumulate the wrong external factors or validators to make you feel better about yourself and in a relationship. I think it's just one of the most obvious places where we see this because the trade-off is pretty obvious. In other words, you can say I have a really nice marriage, but we're not having sex. Let me tell you something, that's not a good marriage. It's not when sex is working. I agree with everyone who says this is 5% of the relationship. 

It's true. It's not a factor. But when it's not working, it is the elephant in the room. And it's very similar to when we're feeling aggressively towards ourselves, and we tend to start to affect the relationship as just an uncomfortable relationship. It's only not intimate; it's also not free. And we therefore start to box ourselves into it. The solution is to really get clear on your worth so that you can stop lying. And in that sense, I'm a pretty absolutist in my terms. 

 
Yes, I hear that. And as you're describing these tendencies of one is to seek these marks externally, that is, you know, almost being distracted or preoccupied by this intense focus. And you're also talking about. And you use the word, and many people are familiar with it. Pleasing, over accommodating, and perhaps, these are both strategies that if I can reach these marks A or B, if I can please my partner just so, then the implied hope or agreement is that I will get my needs met. I will feel worthy by reaching these marks, feel worthy, or I will feel my partner's love and reciprocity for all that I've given. And unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way. 

Way or society will value me, and my work will be valued by me. Because sometimes we're not even looking for the validation from the partner. Here's where I think it's going to be very useful for the listener if I make this concrete by talking about my own story. And I hope you resonate, even though it's a little bit of an extreme story, I think, just based on the thousands of stories I've heard over the last decade in practice. But I still hope that you understand the patterns of self-betrayal and then what they manifest into. When I was 31 years old, I read a garbage book about marrying people because you have to get married and because it's an emergency, and you should take it as an emergency, by Lori Gottlieb. I've since understood that was not her intention, but “Whatevs.” 

I was 30 years old. I was too young to understand that she wasn't saying that. And so I started to have these panic attacks about being elderly and unmarried, like the super sad women that I saw on Sex and the City, which were also a glaring cultural example of me as a failure. Or at least that's how I was reading it. Now, because I'm an overachiever, I'm primed to see the world this way. I can be winning, or I can be losing. And I've been literally rewarded all my life for getting A grades for hitting the right university, for getting into the right jobs, et cetera. So I start to see the entire world in these Machiavellian terms, and I start to see marriage this way as well. 

As a result, 

And it's really a wonderful thing that can actually enhance your life. And as a result of this very low self-worth and priming towards a societal acceptance versus my own understanding of myself and my own ability to express my true needs, I end up in exactly what you're describing, which is if I'm just nice enough and sweet enough, someone is going to ask me to marry them. And I pulled it off several times, by the way. I ended up marrying one such gentleman. And I don't mind telling you that relationship was for those who are old enough to remember, a little bit like Sleeping with the Enemy, the movie with Julia Roberts. It was not only abusive, but it was also terrifying. 

I was afraid for my physical well-being. There were threats made against my cats, which I think is the worst thing that you can do to me. It's much scarier than you threatening to hurt me. And I just felt isolated and alone and depleted. And no matter what I did to be lovely and keep the peace, it was just getting worse and worse and worse. Until one day, finally, the straw broke the camel's back. We were robbed. There was a huge storm. It revealed the fact that he was also lying about finances, etc. Etc. And this is when I finally go, all right, we gotta end this. And I did. I found the courage. I went through the disaster that is divorce. Anyone who's ever been through it knows that this brings a lot. Reinvention, restart, financial ruin, et cetera. 

So I went through that willingly, and I came out the other side. But here's the main thing that I started to understand. What needed to end was not me in that moment. It was the story that I had been buying this Faustian Bargain that you need to sell your soul, essentially, you need to contort yourself. You need to behave as if you don't really want to behave. You need to not ask for what you truly want, because that's the only way to find this level of safety and to look good on Instagram next to a partner. And from then on, I really knew that. 

Any real relationship worth its salt is just that: it's a relationship that feels like home. 

Thank you for sharing, and for being through the awfulness of the consequences of living through this in very extreme ways here. And that it got so confronting that it forced. Sounds like the situation for you to look at, reconstructing, reorienting, and thank goodness. 

I completely agree. I want to say to everybody out there that I got lucky. I got lucky. I ended up suicidal in the shower and with really extreme situations. And those will really shake you out of it. I am delighted to hear. When the client who's been in a really weird marriage finds out, I don't know, that there's unethical behavior or cheating or something really radical like that, because they're doing you a favor. You have to wake up. Usually, you have to wake up. The much more insidious cases are the cases in which life continues to reward you. And here it's the same with any other ambition gone wrong. If you're rewarded by success all the time and more money, you don't notice that your life is a complete sellout for a really long time. 

You don't contend with the aimlessness and the gnawing feelings of isolation because you. 

Get those dopamine hits. 

The dopamine hits. Exactly. So I hope that everybody out there, if you're in a relationship where you're like, I don't know, I feel like this can work. It's okay. I mean, I realize I feel very strongly about someone else. The reason this is happening is that you need to confront the truth, which is that you don't belong there. 

Well, I appreciate your clarity. And I also imagine there might be some relationships, and I don't know if you would agree that as people really start to own what's true for them, be more connected with them, their needs or desires, perhaps there could be in some relationships a renegotiation or a shift in the dynamic that perhaps that relationship can be something different. That is essentially a new relationship. So maybe it isn't the old relationship. 

This I completely understand. And I want to say that two of my role models in marriage are Sharon Osbourne and Ozzy Osbourne. I personally could never make the decision she made. And what that means is you understand what your tolerance level is, and you understand what works for you. And only you understand whether the terms of the marriage are right for you. I, for example, work with people who are interested in polyamory. This is not my jam. But if that's your jam and you have an agreement in your relationship and you understand each other and you can work it on by all means, as long as the love is real and that there is no betrayal of the self in these terms. Absolutely. Have at it. 

That last piece I would underscore no self-abandoning, not lying to yourself. And some of this takes a process, and if you're willing to share it, sounds like you've cultivated a very different experience in relationship and really feel quite enamored with your relationship, your marriage. And can you talk to us about how you like the learning curve of this? Because, as you said, when we've been so accustomed to reaching the marks and getting certain accolades, like that feels good, and we can feel privileged and certain status, and to perhaps do something different could be terrifying in its own right. 

Yeah, that's right. The story of how I came together with love that actually feels like home begins as usual, below the surface. As I mentioned, exiting that marriage. I took about 10 years of my life to really do the inner work so that I didn't reproduce another situation like that. In fact, it wasn't like a fear of anything. Like, I didn't relive trauma, but I just knew that something was off and if I didn't fix myself, in other words, internally come to terms with who I am and be cool with it, I was never going to release that need for the approval that is contained in marriage or, I don't know, the social blessing of being a person who has a husband. 

And so when I find myself back out there after doing the inner work, and by the way, after launching with enthusiasm, coaching, I'm already teaching people. I met Ryan from a place that really didn't care so much if he liked me and cared much more if I liked him, which is a very different, extraordinary experience in dating. And I remember thinking, not only did I hope I liked him, but I also hoped that if he did like me, in most cases. 

Ryan barely spoke that entire date. I've since learned that he doesn't talk, period. 

And he only did so to interrupt me a couple of times and to correct my citations. And I thought, this guy is phenomenal. He's so well read, he's so thoughtful. He's only interjecting when he really wants to say something. And wants to clarify a point. And it was from that moment on that I understood we had just a different connection here. We had a very different story as a result of that self-worth being intact. Being in a relationship with someone who is already truly connecting to the truth of you and cares a lot less about whether you're having a good hair day or a bad hair day or you're up or you're down, you start to move into a relationship that's really reciprocal, because I was also able to see him for what he is. 

Not demand of him to meet me at my level in any scenario, but just understand what he is and read him as he is. And that's been really liberating. 

Oh my goodness. It sounds as though, Karen, you were rock solid in your connection with yourself, that you were not going to waver or abandon yourself, and that you were open to experiencing what was in this meeting, in this interaction, and this connection. Is that right? 

I think I was in Lt. Dan level because I didn't care so much what happened. I just cared about having some fun and seeing what it is. And when you really care about just getting to know somebody and having a great time and this working out, then it's pronounced when it doesn't, and you're not holding on tightly to anything. 

Well, I appreciate you sharing, and I imagine, as you said, the amount of work you're describing, 10 years of being in practice and growth, and sometimes people are trying to implement these principles as they're learning. I will say in my early years, luckily, I think that there can be something really beautiful in getting to know someone as they are building a friendship and just taking the pressure off of whatever we're trying to achieve in the sense of long term relationship or what have you. And when I was in that place and in practice, I was very aware of my anxiety or my tendency and was catching myself live, real time, and speaking into fear and vulnerability and showing up for myself that I wasn't going to abandon myself. 

And it was sometimes really hard and did feel scary because I think one of the things when people are really accustomed to reaching certain marks, there's a sense of false control with that, if I can do X, if I can do Y, then here's the outcome, here's the result, and very trying to be strategic about it. So when we're in the unknown and in that place. My husband similarly is not overly expressive. He's quite grounded and contained and wasn't always really visible. I wasn't getting clear cues that he was into me as much as I was into him. And so I had to be with the grief that he may not be into me as much as I meant to. 

So this happens to me as well. And I really appreciate that you're expressing this because we can talk about the fact that the overachieving tendencies die hard, and that's the need to control or the need to drive the agenda, which will pop up. I'm a recovering perfectionist. That means that I will, for the rest of my life, sometimes have the impulse to jump in from anxiety, from fear. That only started to happen when I really started to like Ryan. When I started to like Ryan. Unfortunately, I'm compromised, right? And that means I really want Ryan to like me, too. I've been blessed with a husband who's so unexpressive that, for those who are watching on YouTube, this is what he looks like when he is ecstatic. His face doesn't move. Complete poker face. 

And so he also wasn't as reciprocal in terms of I call, I talk, I text, et cetera. He just cannot forget about you for several days at a time. And I thought the same thing you did. But then I really stepped into my practice. My practice is not just blind faith. It is an honoring of Byron Katie's. The work of my own, the pause principle, which I talk about in Gilded. I literally start thinking, am I freaking out for any good reason? Is this the truth? What are the other possibilities? What else might be going on here? Is there a possibility that this freak show might actually like me, but in a very weird Midwestern way? 

Oh, my husband's from Minnesota. 

This is where they learn to not show love to huge love to the Midwest. And so I really started to do that work. And I ultimately latched on through this to my ultimate faith. 

Like this. Or something better, right? Sometimes we get into the fantasy or the hope, and we get very attached and think, oh, what if? What if it doesn't work out? What does that mean? And so what you're saying, just for people listening who aren't familiar with Byron Katie, or don't know your pause method, it sounds like you're suspending interpretation, suspending judgment, because we don't have all the information, and that our brains are story maker, meaning making machines, and that we are automatically going to create a story. And sometimes we're on a thought train that has no real basis in what's true for the other person or what's happening. Would you like to say a little bit more? 

When you're agenda-driven, you basically steamroll the other person. You don't even notice you're steamrolling the other person. Instead of honoring where the other person is. Tools like the work. Byron Katie has a mindfulness exercise that consists of just four questions that literally begin with just one question. And that is true? You have to start investigating your thoughts as stories. Does he not really care about me, a true story? You have no evidence for this. If you really looked at it and you were in a court of law, it would be super hard for you to prove he doesn't care about me. You could say poker face. But you know what? Jessica and I both have husbands with poker faces. And look, they tend to like us. Number two, is it possible he will never show up again? 

I mean, what do you know? Can you see the future? And also, is he the right person for you? Have you even considered that angle? And so there are so many other ways to investigate our thoughts. That starts to release the agenda or the control, which is always going to limit our possibilities and calm us down enough to start getting a totality of possibilities. And anyone who truly knows their worth starts playing that winning game. The biggest irony of working with overachievers is that I have come to believe that they play a very small defensive game. Instead of learning to play at a really high level, I'm going to find my way to winning the game. 

Can we unpack that for a minute? Because I think there's a fallacy that if we're doing what society praises or really upholds in high esteem, that's the ultimate, that's the winning game. And that you're saying it grossly limits us, that if we can be in the unknown, suspend, have this pause, that there are so many more possibilities that support an ultimate winning game. 

I think that my favorite part of my book, if I may be narcissistic for a second, is a chapter called “You're Not Playing to Win, You're Playing Not to Lose.” I got the concept many years ago. I was a political science major from game theory, and then I was reinforced in this point, and I must reference Jessica for all your listeners, the greatest movie of the last 10 years, which of course is Crazy Rich Asians. Crazy Rich Asians opens with a game scene and closes with a game scene opens with a poker scene and ends with a mahjong scene. It is a game theory movie, and the entire movie is about game theory. In the first sequence, you see Rachel Chu just defeating this guy because she knows he's playing with his psychology. 

And she knows that by tripping him up by appearing very confident at the poker table, he, even though he has a good hand, will fold at the end of the movie. And I'm not ruining this for anybody because everyone has flown in the last couple of years and seen the movie several times. At the end of the movie, she's playing mahjong against her nemesis, the mother-in-law, and she is about to win. But she throws the game. Why? She's demonstrating that throwing the game is the real move that aligns with her worth. She knows that if she wins here by societal standards, she tells her, if I win by societal standards, I will marry this rich guy. We do have children. I will always know that I've separated him from his family and that you're sitting like a bad chip on my shoulder. 

That is not winning. And this is the Faustian bargain, the deal with the devil that I talk about in Gilded. So many of us, I don't know, we take jobs as consultants, we get paid a fortune, and we end up ripping out 20 years of our lives with really bad hips and a tremendously difficult existence that's probably mind-numbingly boring too. For what? For $2 million a year? I hate to break it to you, but there are other ways to get there. And it's the same thing with the compromise in relationships. 

Yes. And if I'm hearing you too. For people who want to orchestrate or help facilitate that, you may get some version of what you set out to do, but you're not going to have the experience we're looking at relationship of slowing things down enough to see how someone shows up, really seeing them. To your point from an earlier marriage, right. That there was a trying to achieve the goal of getting married, versus who this person is. How do they show up, and how do they respond to me? How do they lean in? How do they care for me or show up for me when I'm vulnerable or when I have a need? Like those are things that emerge from the unknown, and we don't know how somebody's gonna be. Is that right? 

Yeah, it's true. We have. I mean, whenever somebody announces, and this has happened a couple of times in coaching, that they're getting married after three months, I always go, all right, see you guys in a year. We unfortunately do not get to know each other instantly. And the sex haze is real. 

It's the same with a business. You will not shortcut your way. You will delight in the process of the expansion and of doing it right. In that sense, my aim is to teach people that the only goal worth having is not money. It's not status, it's not closing the deal. It's mastery, it's excellence. 

If you are not aimed at excellence, you are going to naturally become a perfectionist, which is a shortcut, a short circuit, a mindset that's going to trip itself up again and again. And that's what I'm thinking. 

 
Well, you even mentioned the narcissistic tendency playfully. Do you feel that there can be a little bit of an inflated ego that we can control, too? Because in some ways, if we have success and we reach all these and we get all these accolades, there's almost this belief that, or even in the west, in these more independently focused cultures, that there's this sense of, like, “I have all this power, which we do have a tremendous amount of agency, but it also can be overinflated.” What do you think? 

I think it's autonomy versus authentic power. Autonomy is the desire to control your own destiny. It's phony baloney. They're usually posturing or filled with bravado. I see this all the time in coaching because I coach a specific archetype, and they're like, I can and I will. And I'm like, I feel like you're saying that with a little too much anger. So I don't know about you, but I do not buy it. And it's very annoying to them, which triggers them further, where I'm like, this is a deck of cards. Like, I could just blow this away in the wind. In the case of a person who's truly authentic in their power, they're pretty relaxed. They know what they don't know. They understand that life will ultimately win, whether you like it or not. 

And they are just, therefore not holding this posture, this phony baloney stance of, I can get it together, and I should keep it together. It doesn't make any sense. You have surrendered the real stance of power. 

The humility of knowing that there is uncertainty, and I will be flexible, and I will work with what I have. And you know, the humility to understand I do have. 

Yeah, it's true. And this is true of your relationship, this is true of your career, this is true of your health.

I'd love to pivot. If you can talk a little bit about people who are in a relationship. Either one partner is this overachiever, maybe experiencing some level of burnout, or the cost of this overachieving tendency, and what this can look like when we start to become more aware in a relationship. For either partner who is with the other or the one who is acknowledging. I think I have this, and I want to start switching things around in the sexless marriage. Right. Like, talk to us a little about when people are already in a relationship with existing patterns and are interested in shifting them. 

Effy. The first thing I would see them as is yellow flags. I don't enjoy the term red flag because it makes people think that they're in danger. You're not, but they are yellow flags, which means an invitation to inquire further. In general, if one partner is literally leaning into burnout, they are overextending themselves, they are overfunctioning. Over-functioning is something that I personally see as an addiction. I believe that workaholism is a form of addiction. I know the APA does not identify it as such, but it's a form of numbing. That means that they're dealing with shame, they're dealing with worth issues, they're dealing with fear. And that is something that, if it's not addressed, it's definitely experienced in the relationship as a form of codependency. 

In other words, they're either mean towards you or over-reliant upon you for propping them up. And either way, the real problem is that they're beating the crap out of themselves, and they're not dealing with their own issues properly, or not dealing probably with traumas that are residual from childhood. Now, in general, I also want to say workaholism sometimes comes with other super fun side effects like alcoholism and substance addiction, abuse, and additional forms of numbing. Because workaholism is inherently a cover-up. It's usually a fear that if I ever let go, I will completely fall by the wayside. Which means you have some issues with “fraudulent”. So, first thing I would say is this is a yellow flag, and I'd like to inquire what's going on. 

 

I would just start to lean into the emotions rather than brush them under the rug, and just go, they are what they are. Some people work a lot, I work a lot, Ruth Bader Gist worked a lot. But our husbands know that there's nothing unhealthy about this. We just happen to be very passionate; we can turn it off anytime. We're happy, we're self-caring, we're functioning, we never miss anything. You know what I mean? It's not like I forgot what day it is or anything like that. But you understand what the difference is between patterns that are difficult and patterns that are not difficult. The second case, if you're not having sex here, I become a little bit more gung-ho and say something is wrong. 

Either you've become isolated from yourselves for a very long time, because something has happened in the relationship where you've taken each other for granted for too long. And there I refer you to Mating in Captivity by Esther Perel. But to this podcast to really start to understand, like what's happened here. Because most couples are, it's true, there's a power dynamic, they're fighting over, there's a care dynamic. Something died, and it died a long time ago. What is happening? Where is the source of the animosity towards the other? And again, here I say there might be some lying going on, someone's having sex, just letting you know, and where are they having sex, and where are they getting this intimacy need fulfilled? Particularly if it's been years. Sex is like eating; you're going to eat. 

Well, some people self-pleasure, some people go to porn, some people have affairs. Like, you know, there's a range here, and sometimes there are life things, stressors that interfere, whether or not it's menopause or somebody died, or there's some tragedy. You know, these things do impact, and also the other dynamics that are at play that you're referencing.

Well, what I mean by this is they're redirecting something, and that is sufficiently commanding their attention to take them away from the relationship. And as far as I'm concerned, that means they're not in the relationship. So you got a compromise here. And so again, the yellow flags should just turn you on to the truth. 

Again, personally, I could not stay there. 

Yes. And for people who are listening, that might get what you're describing and feel some inspiration or motivation around it, but also find the way you're speaking about it might sound really easy. And also, could you give somebody a tip or a recommendation on how to set it up, whether or not for themselves to feel some inner stability before having this conversation, what it might sound like to broach this conversation? I know there are many examples, but also just for someone listening, that might feel easy to you, but for them, they're not. 

Like, it's not easy. For me, it's clear. It's simply clear. Because I understand that my diverging from the truth is just me perpetuating a lie. And that is something with which my consciousness cannot live. It becomes too burdensome. I've lived with lying for too long in my life. In the case of so clear is not easy. In order to make this simpler, not easier, but simpler, I like to start with a phrase, make no sudden moves. Once you understand that you are in the vicinity of a yellow flag. This doesn't mean take a torch to your life, and we write it down. It doesn't mean that. It literally means be gentle with yourself, start listening to your feelings, start reading, have baby conversations, start leaning into this a little bit more. 

If you actually go all in, what'll happen is the other side will naturally dig their heels in, and you'll have a real, full-blown conflict. This, particularly when there are small children involved, when there are legalities involved, it's a big fire. I wouldn't dance directly into it. I would just begin to clarify for myself what I am feeling and hope that I am met with some reciprocity that can deepen over time. No sudden moves. 

And unfortunately, the way it works sometimes, I don't know if you would agree, but some people, as you described earlier, the straw that breaks the camel's back, some people get to this threshold of I've had enough, I'm done, I can't do this anymore. And then they do want to blow things up, and you're really recommending that typically isn't going to give a lot of opportunity to see what is possible. That if you can make smaller steps and really turn towards what you're experiencing and then make some small steps that feel doable, that could be something to be curious about. 

I practice what I preach here, and I've heard incredible stories, like finding out about cheating because one partner got three STDs. Finding out about cheating because the hookers were texting the phone. And in those sentences, like, I'm, maybe you can hear I have an accent. I'm Israeli. Like, my natural impulse would be kill everything around me. Not to be a stereotype. I like to make light of difficult situations. But I've learned that this is really not the right way. The first thing we must do is turn inward. First, calm down and not calm yourself down. Just find centering. Find a place within your heart that cannot be heard. Find some modicum of objectivity. Find something about yourself that you are not contending with. In other words, own your side of the streets too. 

And as you do, broach the subject, which is so much different from I'm leaving you, I'm taking everything, and I'm going to destroy everything around us, which unfortunately leads nowhere good. 

No. And one doesn't have the experience of doing what you're describing because it's almost like deny, numb, suppress. And then it reaches this critical point, and then we blow things up. So we actually haven't had that experience as you're describing. 

Yeah, I would probably do what Brene Brown says to do. I've done this only in a work capacity, but I believe that the principle is in her book, Dare to Lead. Build the container. You have to prepare yourself, and then from there be much calmer. I wouldn't say strategic, just calmer moves. Calmer moves. When you're calmer, you prepare. And when you prepare, you can take the shifts that will come with conflict better. 

Okay, so this goes for, I mean, the way I framed it in partnership. If one person's an overachiever and the other isn't, either party can do what you're describing. 

Yeah, “it takes two to tango.” There is something about you that has also intensity. We've chosen each other. So one dynamic is enabling, and the other dynamic is overtaking. That's my point. My point is that there are two people in every relationship. And while I don't know, even in the case like my relationship, I wasn't abusive, I didn't do anything wrong, I didn't do anything illegal. But I did choose him. And I did choose him from a place of really low self-worth. I also didn't accept somebody treating me like that for a couple of years. I knew that this was horrific. And until I owned that, I myself put myself in this relationship. I also didn't have the power to take myself out of this relationship. This is what I mean by “clean up your side of the street.” 

Yes. And this is tremendous work because as I listen to what you're describing and contemplate my understanding, and when I see couples shifting into more authenticity, self-connection, and then being more vulnerable with their partner, it's all right there. Like things can shift so quickly. Not so much that it's like, oh, a 180 and a game changer. And it can. And that's when we don't test it. Because you were saying earlier about we typically, if I'm saying we from people who are overachievers and identify with that, perhaps might have this fear that if I don't do those things, who am I? Am I going to be lovable? Am I attractive enough? Am I worthy? And when we can rest in this place of what you're describing and have a connection, that something else emerges. As we were saying earlier, that new possibilities, new experiences. 

Can you say a little bit more here? 

Well, 

Since Ozzy Osbourne died a couple of months ago, I've really enjoyed rewatching some of the episodes of The Osbournes, which I thought was just a hilarious show. And I recognize in that couple that they were simply making a choice. They were choosing each other. This was an imperfect choice, as all choices are, but this is a choice that they made and that they were going to go to bat with. And they were ready to live their life and with all of the consequences. 

She knew who he was, she understood what he was and what he did, and she made that choice over and over again because for her, this somehow did work. In other words, there is no bad choice as long as you start to understand that I have possibilities here. And this is what I'm really interested in living with. And that's pretty much it. 

Thank you. Well, I know we're winding down here. Do you have a practice to help someone who wants to experiment with knowing who they are, connecting with what matters, and kind of slowing down? You gave us an example of the pause, which is suspending that tendency to interpret or create meaning about something in an interaction. What steps or any tips would you recommend here for people who want to just start to practice this self-connection? 

I think aside from coaching and therapy, which I believe are absolute musts in this life, I don't know where I would be without them. The other thing, the other practice that is a game changer, is reading. You can read on Audible, I'm fine with that. But read the books that will profoundly give you the tools and the frameworks that will allow you to examine yourself properly, not others. By the way, 

Ryan is never going to become an affectionate person. 

 
However, what I can understand is who I am and what I care about and what really matters to me, and bring my A game as a result to any relationship. And my A game is my most forgiving and my most compassionate self, which will usually make for a better partnership. In these cases, I really recommend not only engaging with magnificent podcasts like Jessica's but also reading the work of Brene Brown, the work of Eckhart Tolle, the work of Ram Dass, and the work of Louise Hay. Truly, there are so many masters in this realm that will get you clearer on your worth and on who you are and on what you desire. And once you understand that, like once you know that, there's never any going back, which is a good thing. 

So when we are working with a coach or a therapist or reading, we are starting to contemplate and getting new input, a new perspective. 

Yeah, we're being confronted constantly with the tube. You're just being confronted by the way. I remember one book in particular, Martha Beck's The Way of Integrity, that pissed me off so much I slammed it shut. When that happens. This is. You have to look at this. Something is up. This is exactly what I mean by reading. And that's also why I like coaching so much. Coaching is. It's not confrontational, but our job is to stand clear and to basically be a friendly trial lawyer who's there to show you that most of what you're saying lovingly is nonsense. And that's exactly what the books do for you. We want a confrontation with these ideas. Not a fun, easy read. 

Wonderful. Well, speaking of books, would you like to share your most recent book? 

Thank you. Gilded has been out this year and is doing tremendously well. It's called Breaking Free from the Cage of Perfectionism, Ambition, and the Relentless Pursuit of More. And I hope that it helps people take themselves out of their self-inflicted cage lives and into something much more authentic. 

Yeah. Which really is what you've spoken about here, how we restrict ourselves with these tendencies and what is really available and possible, and the freedom and the beauty of that, and all that can. 

Come and people can love is what you're saying. It makes me think that, like, the way I think about relationships is instead of a vehicle for entrapping us and for confining us, which is one of the things that really annoy me when people talk about marriage in those terms. 

I couldn't agree with you more when you talked about just some of how we may really agree that an intimate relationship can be an opportunity for growth. That which gets presented, what we might feel confronted with, might be areas that are underdeveloped in ourselves or areas that we may have some tenderness and maybe metabolized previous injury or trauma. And there are just so many opportunities for really growing. And it's not easy work. And I know that you support people in many different domains. Health, business, and relationships. Do you want to speak a little bit more about people who might be interested in coaching? 

Of course, I primarily deal with leadership coaching, so the mindset of founders and the creation of businesses that hopefully scale. But I have learned, Jessica, from the very beginning of my practice, that if love ain't working, ain't nothing working. In other words, how you feel is how you lead. We will eventually be talking about relationships, because if that's not functioning, it's a symptom that there's just a lot more disintegration happening. It's like finding a tiny kink in an airplane. Even if it's just one screw loose, the plane is in severe danger. And so that's really what I help you do. The first is get really clear on what's blocking you. And the second is after we remove that, to start to create something on solid ground. 

And how do people get in touch with you? 

There's www.kereneldad.com. My name is spelled two E's, so I like to say I'm not a Karen. @coachkeren on Instagram. Because, you know, I'm super cool and I'm always on the socials, and my podcast Coach with Coach Keren. I hope we have Dr. Jessica Higgins very soon, live from Austin, Texas. 

I love it. Wonderful. Well, I'll make sure to have the links to your social media, your website, and the book. Thank you so much, Karen. I appreciate all that you've shared. 

Thank you. My pleasure.