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Ever notice that it’s not the everyday conversations or simple disagreements that shape the quality of a relationship—it’s those high-stakes moments, the tough talks that feel risky and uncomfortable, that truly define the connection. Far too often, we skirt around what really needs to be said, trading short-term relief for long-term regret. Whether it’s at work or at home, these avoided discussions can lead to resentment, disconnection, and a sense of self-abandonment.

In this episode, listeners will dive deep into understanding why we tend to avoid these “last 8%” conversations, what emotional forces are at play, and how learning emotional intelligence can transform conflict into an opportunity for growth. Through practical insights and relatable stories, the discussion explores how you can recognize your own patterns under pressure, build self-awareness, and learn strategies to approach difficult dialogues with clarity, empathy, and courage. If you're ready to break out of avoidance and start showing up authentically—for yourself and your relationships—this episode offers a roadmap to addressing the hard stuff and reclaiming connection.

Bill Benjamin is a Partner at the Institute for Health & Human Potential. He has degrees in Mathematics and Computer Science and 30 years of business experience. Bill explains how you can build a high-performance Last 8% Culture by leveraging the science of emotional intelligence. His clients include NASA, Marriott, Intel, the Mayo Clinic, the U.S. Marines, and Surgeons.

Episode Highlights

05:07 The importance and science behind emotional intelligence in relationships and business.

07:24 The origin of the “Last 8%” concept and its impact on difficult conversations.

10:03 Fight, flight, and the roles we play: Avoiders, mess-makers, and emotional triggers in relationships.

14:39 Navigating emotional intelligence at work versus at home.

18:16 The costs of avoidance.

21:06 Recognizing your role and contribution in conflict.

28:36 Understanding others’ intentions in pressure situations.

29:15 Practical strategies for handling relational conflict.

35:12 Addressing shame and trauma in relationship pressure points.

36:15 Taking action: Sensitive communication and resources for emotional intelligence development.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

• Start with Self-Awareness: Regularly check in with your body and mind for early signs of emotional activation, like tense muscles or scattered thoughts.
• Pause Before Reacting: If you notice emotional triggers, pause and take several deep breaths to regain mental clarity and composure.
• Name Your Patterns: Reflect on whether you tend to avoid difficult conversations or “make a mess” by confronting too strongly.
• Get Curious About Others: In moments of tension, intentionally seek to understand the other person's perspective—what’s driving their reaction or behavior?
• Build Empathy Bridges: Imagine stepping over to the “other side of the bridge,” as suggested, to genuinely validate the other person's feelings before expressing your own.
• Return To The Conversation: If you need a break during a heated moment, communicate that you’ll revisit the topic, rather than letting it drop indefinitely.
• Express Your Emotional Needs: Practice communicating your own needs and boundaries directly, knowing it's essential for building mutual respect and trust.
• Seek Support When Needed: If shame, trauma, or persistent avoidance is hindering healthy interactions, reach out to a therapist, mentor, or supportive resource for guidance and perspective.

Mentioned

Performing Under Pressure: The Science of Doing Your Best When It Matters Most (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

The Secret to Building a High-Performing Team (Harvard Business Review article)

12 Relationship Principles to Strengthen Your Love (free guide)

Connect with Bill Benjamin

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LinkedIn:linkedin.com/in/bill-benjamin-12b671

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If you have a topic you would like to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

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*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Bill, thank you for joining us. I'm excited about our conversation.

I am thrilled to be here.

Yes. And you have really identified and coined this last 8% and how it is such a game-changer. And I know a lot of your work applies to the professional space business, and also, you've said very clearly, and just even in our chatting here, it might even apply more to the intimate space. And we're going to be applying this to the couple dynamic. But before we do that, for people getting to know you, I'm sure there's a whole signature talk around this, but can you give people a little bit of how this developed, how this became important for you?

Yeah, I mean, so by the way, for me, it actually applies more in my personal life than it does in business. 

There's definitely an application because it's around the difficult stuff. And a lot of the stuff that we deal with is more difficult in our personal lives.

You know, my origin story of this work is 

But I actually wasn't a very good manager. I struggled to lead effectively, to create a great culture, all that. It actually was a time in my life when I was struggling personally.

 
I was having a lot of anxiety, a lot of stress. That's actually a quote I heard back then that's always stuck with me. And the quote is, I've had a lot of great moments in my life. I just wish I'd been there for more of them. So, in wanting to do something about this situation, I recognized that it wasn't going to be getting smarter because I was kind of an IQ kind of technical skill guy. I got exposed to this whole area of emotional intelligence, this thing we now call “The Last 8%,” and it really helped me. So some of the stuff I'm about to share was stuff that I got exposed to as a client, and it really helped me. And so that's the origin of how I got into this work.

Thank you for sharing personally. And then also, it's so common. I'm imagining many people are resonating with the strategy of developing oneself, performing at high levels, and thinking that that will get us to some place where things will really come together. And sometimes there's an inner game here that is asking for more development. And secondly, I just so appreciate the field of business and consulting, and my academic understanding, it's industrial organizational psychology, which offers consultation to the business world, and how emotional intelligence has become and is so useful for. I mean, the numbers, as you probably can speak to more than I can about how that is contributing to performance, maybe even ROI, like this has a big impact on this emotional intelligence.

I mean, that's what convinced me because with degrees in mathematics and computer science, I thought, oh, that stuff's all soft and squishy. But I actually learned that there's research and brain science behind it that can actually drive outcomes, not only in business, but I know, you know, John Gottman's work. I mean, the number one factor in having a successful relationship of any sort is how you handle conflict, how you deal with challenging emotions. And so, yeah, there's clear data on the outcomes both in business and personally. And interestingly, you know, our business, kind of our mission, is to help businesses create cultures that are high performing, high care, high accountability. That’s our external mission,

But for a lot of people who aren't to that degree, like I was suffering. And so this work really helps at both levels. Yes, it helps drive business outcomes and profit and all that, but more importantly, it drives. It alleviates suffering. And that's what I love about this work.

Thank you, I appreciate that. And I'm just struck by the very basics. I'm sure you would agree that we're not machines, right? We're human. And that so much of even interacting in the business sector is a relationship as well. And so we can't somehow bypass that.

Yeah, absolutely. And so you were asking me about kind of the origin of “The Last 8%.” So for many years, we did work around the area of emotional intelligence, and there's a connection between the two. But the concept of The Last 8% came from my business partner, our founder, Dr. JP Pawliw-Fry. He was coaching a couple of executives at a large company who weren't getting along, like that ever happens. And he coached them to have a conversation with each other about the impact they were having on each other. So by the way, this could be two people in therapy, right? Being coached to have a conversation with each other. So the analogy is perfect. So they went, and they had the conversation, and came back from the conversation. They're in the individual coaching sessions, and he asks, well, how did it go? 

And they were like, oh, went fine. 

Well, he knows better. So he pushed and said, yeah, but did you say everything we said you were going to say? 

And they both said, effectively, well, actually, I got 85, 90, 95% of the way there. I got to the hard stuff.

And the other person started reacting, and I held back. “Aha.” I didn't really step in and say that last 5 or 10%, the part that really needed to be said, and that is such a common experience that people have that we took that idea and we did a study on 34,000 people and determine on average it's 7.56%, which we rounded up to 8, 8% that people feel they leave unsaid in a difficult conversation. Now as we workshop this, people said, well, it's actually not only difficult conversations, also the tough decisions in a business, you know, taking a risk, trying a new product, getting on a new project, interpersonally saying no to somebody, giving somebody feedback, you know, so all these last 8% decisions, there's the easy ones where everyone's getting along and everyone's happy, but then there's when there's tension, when there's stress, when there's conflict, high stakes. Last 8%. The high stakes. Those are the high-stakes conversations. And so we coined the phrase “The Last 8%.”

Thank you for just defining that. I want to comment on one thing, and then I would love to hear how you see the couple that's showing up in that couple space, and what type of conversations you might have. I mean, we can all conjure up the difficult conversations, but just curious what you would say. Just a comment here in this origin story. I think it's really human for us to be tracking the receptivity or the openness of the other person. So when we're getting signals of the person seemingly disengaging or shutting down, I think there's wisdom in recognizing, oh, there's tension here. And this is perhaps where the emotional intelligence comes in. But yes, not to completely like abort or you know, just like not continue, but there's maybe a more skillful way to continue because we don't really know what to do.

Yeah, I mean, our emotional center is our fear center. Right? As you know, the amygdala is our fear-processing center. And so yes, 

Now, interestingly, in our research, there are two predictable default behaviors that people have in The Last 8% moments. 68% of people whose normal behavior is to avoid. So if you're listening and you're like, “yeah, gosh, I'm kind of an avoider,” that's okay, that's normal. But what about the other 32%? Well, I fall into that category. Sometimes I'm in that devo conversation. The other person starts reacting; instead of stepping back, I step in, but I'm coming on too strong, and now I'm making a mess of it. So we talk about people either being avoiders or messers.

We're in the couple space. People might have heard either the distancer and the pursuer, the one who is. Yes, absolutely.

Or in the Gottman work, the stonewaller or the criticizer or the defender or the, you know, so. Absolutely. Yeah. And it all comes from our, that fight or flight, you know, emotional mechanism in our brain. We've just given it some slightly different language around avoiding or making a mess. The other reason, by the way, that these last 8% moments are so important in business and in personal relationships is the cortisol effect. And the cortisol effect is that when there's tension, pressure, uncertainty, conflict, cortisol gets released, which does a number of things. But one of the things it does is it causes memories to sear in. So 

Yes. And when you spoke, whatever the high stakes are, and as we're applying this towards intimate space, when something means something so significant, or it's a core need or attachment need, then it means a lot more. I mean, I'm stating something that sounds very obvious, but to your point about our nervous system registering that in a highly threatening way, when it means more, it's going to be much more significant and likely trigger more.

 And by the way, if you add in the stored trauma many of us bring into our relationships, totally, sometimes we're not even reacting to that person. We're reacting to something that happened 10 or 50 years ago. And that's the cortisol effect that stores something that happened to us when we were 5 years old. At 55, it's still stored in our emotional memory like it happened yesterday. And so we can react right away. And so that's another thing that makes those personal relationships even more triggering, is all the history we bring to them.

Oh my goodness, yes. To add that with this history, we likely have protective tendencies to avoid those painful feelings of disapproval, rejection, and guilt as charged. Same, same. Get it right. And this is a preemptive attempt to avoid this very painful sphere. And even avoiding. And yet you're also saying, so let's look at couplehood. What are some of the conversations that you see couples typically avoiding? This qualifies as The Last 8%.

I mean, in some ways, it's what you're talking about. It's anything that could potentially lead to feelings of rejection Feelings of not being valued, feelings of getting criticized, feelings of hurting the other person, feelings of not being liked. Like, we're all driven by these core emotional needs to feel respected, to feel valued. So it's anything. I mean, obviously, there are specifics, like, you know, conversations around money or someone's behavior or drinking or. I mean, it's different for every couple.

It is.

But it comes down to. And I know you know there's some sort of emotional need that's not getting met, that's being triggered. That's what actually happens, because we're not facing physical threats anymore. There's not tigers jumping out at us.

 We're facing, but it feels like it.

It does. And our brain reacts the same as if it's a tiger. Yes. But it's actually social and emotional threats. Another big one, because, you know, we do work around culture. Another big one is the need to belong. People want to feel they're part of.

The tribe, and so the relationship, feels secure, that we are good. Are you not going to leave or abandon me?

Not going to leave. You're not going to abandon me. You're not going to criticize me. You're not going to disrespect me. All of those things, when you get to their core, are what are triggering now. The surface stuff, it's a bit like, to me, it's a bit like computer software. The arguments over money and who's staying out too late, and all these other things. That's the software. What we're talking about is the operating system. The operating system of emotional needs not being met, the operating system of, you know, psychological trauma, stored trauma, all that.

And so that's what I love about our work, is we're not doing therapy with people, right? That's deeper work. But we are introducing them to some of these concepts to gain some insight beyond just, oh, I probably shouldn't get mad at people, right? I shouldn't yell, or I shouldn't avoid. It's, well, why am I doing that? What are some emotional needs that aren't being met? And how can I? Because, you know, for us, with that, avoid or make a mess.

Right? It's finding that middle ground. Not perfect, obviously, but to be more skillful. And so that. That's a big part of this. This work teaches people in business and in their personal lives.

Well, Bill, I have seen, and I don't know if you would agree, that sometimes for folks, the business domain, while it's incredibly important, ties to identity, ties to so many things, it might feel less charged than the intimate space, and therefore, there's a little bit more regulation to practice. I've had clients who are doing emotional intelligence work in their business, and they're like, oh, this is what you were talking about. Or oh, I see how this is like mapping on some of the things that we've been asking for, we've been trying to get to. And it makes it a bit more accessible in that there's practice ground in the business, and then being able to have some footing and orientation to then be able to address some of the couple space. I don't know if you've seen that, but I have.

Oh, all the time. I was actually coaching. I was actually coaching a CEO of a 12,000-person company. 

He's like, 

“God, I'm in the midst of the board firing stuff at me, people arguing. I can stay calm, but when I go home, my wife yells at me to take out the garbage. Again, I react and get defensive.” 

He's like he was having trouble understanding why he could be in such high pressure situation at work and stay calm, but not at home over something simple. Because of what you and I talked about, those relationships are deeper, they're more important. We also, we get more grace at home. Right. Like I can yell at my teenage daughter to stop yelling. I can't yell at an employee.

Right, right, right. Accountability, right? Yes.

Right. So there's also more of a. Because like behavior is driven both by our internal capabilities and attitudes, but it's also driven by the environment. So when we do a lot of culture work, we look at it. You have to look at both. Well, the environment at home is. The environment requires a lot of work, so you can't behave in certain ways, or you lose your job. Well, at home, I mean, of course, ultimately you could get divorced, or there could be an outcome, but typically that's a much longer process and a consequence that people aren't necessarily thinking of when they're avoiding saying something.

Yes. And I have found also to add to the culture piece, there's typically, not always, but often clearly defined roles for people in the professional sphere, business sphere, and typically not always, but in the intimate space, people are striving for mutuality, reciprocity, and equity. So while power differentials exist, the intention is to have both people feeling considered often so that sometimes someone is in a CEO role and they're able to hold ground, and they have the authority to make some calls and decisions, and then they come home, and they're like, oh, I can't just make the calls. Right.

By the way, that was the coaching for him. 

No, it's a little obvious, but it might be helpful for us to just spend a couple of minutes here talking about the cost of not having these conversations in intimate spaces and otherwise. And then I would love to turn towards emotional intelligence. But is it worth acknowledging how critical these conversations are and what can happen when we are in the habit and culture of avoiding?

Yeah, and I think there are two costs. There's the cost to the business or relationship. Both of the personal costs. Because in some ways, when you're avoiding, you're trading that short-term anxiety and discomfort for long-term regret. Because when you're not speaking your truth, when you're not saying you're holding on to stuff, you know, you're not saying what you need to say. And so, like, you know, some of the stories I have about times I didn't speak up are 25 years ago, and I still regret it. You know, that's the stuff to remember. And so yeah, there's a personal cost, and then if you hold onto it, it doesn't get spoken, then it becomes toxic. And I know, you know, in your role as a therapist, you know, that then starts to infiltrate into a relationship and can become, you know, it can become.

People don't show up, right? Like they tend to build wedges of like withdrawing, withholding, and then resentment. Resentment because the person keeps doing it.

Same thing even though you're not really speaking up, but they keep doing it, you know, so.

Yeah, right. And in what you're talking about with regret, I would imagine and believe that there's even self-abandonment as you're talking about not having these conversations, that while I might be gaining some short-term relief, in the long term. Yeah, I'm not showing up for myself.

I mean, I think we're saying the same thing is shame. And that is, as you know, a driver of behavior and emotion, and mental health. Shame. Shame can be. So yeah, when we're not stepping in from a business perspective, when people aren't challenging the status quo, we're not taking risks to try new things. When they're not holding people accountable. Right. All that, all that unspoken stuff that 60 people who aren't. There's a huge cost to the business, but it's actually a higher cost in personal relations just because of what we're talking about. Because resentments build up, toxicity builds up. So yeah, you have to find that outlet.

If we're not communicating our needs, if we're not setting boundaries, like in personal relationships, some of the stuff we're avoiding actually goes right to our self-esteem.

Go right to it. So then you've got that hit on your self-esteem because you're not setting boundaries, you're not, your needs aren't being met, and you're not happy with the relationship because it's not what you want.

Exactly. But sometimes the other person doesn't realize why. Because you're not communicating. Right. Like, yeah, absolutely. Now I'm kind of in a relationship where it's the opposite. We're both making messes.

Yeah.

So you know, but that also has its challenges. And then when you, by the way, have two avoiders or two make a messers, and then in between, so the key and anything, and this may take us to the emotional intelligence discussion, which is self-awareness.

 Yes, yes.

Right. When we recognize our behavior, our impact, and own that and try to work on and acknowledge and value the other person, how soothing that is for them and enabling for them to say, oh well, you know, I mean I'm struggling with this too, and I know I have a contribution. So yeah, that self-awareness of your own behavior and your own impact is critical, and that is the foundation of emotional intelligence.

Yes. I would love for us to dive in here because this is so, so important. And oftentimes, people, when we talk about self-awareness, perhaps some people are thinking, 

“Oh, I need to dig in a little bit and spend some time and understand.” 

But what's also true in my experience is that sometimes these things initially are not even on the radar. Like, we're not ignoring or seemingly ignoring cues. We're just not conscious. We're not even aware of it, absolutely aware of it. So we're in this pattern of, in these protective strategies, people pleasing, perfectionism, all the things. And so I want to talk about self-awareness, and then you said something out of the gate that I just think is so, so important, which is when we get cues about the other person shutting down or not being receptive. So tracking the other person's openness, that's also awareness.

Yes.

Okay.

The awareness. So you know, the awareness of others. So, the emotional intelligence model is self-awareness, then self-regulation, then you know, interpersonal relationships, and empathy. Because it's very hard to be empathetic, to really notice how another person is feeling if you're triggered. Because we become self-protective. So the first thing in our work is, number one, be aware of your Last 8% moments because they're where the most, the most damage can happen, but it's also where the most positive outcomes can happen. Where, you know, the most breakthroughs can happen is in those last eight. So number one, be aware of, “hey, I think I'm heading into a last 8% moment, or something's coming at me.” 

So number one is just awareness, but then awareness of how you're reacting. “Gosh, I think I'm starting to avoid, I think I'm starting to make a mess, I'm starting to interrupt, or I'm not saying something.” 

And so that whole awareness of your behavior and even, even your attitude, even, you know, because by the way, you can avoid and still give people looks.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That is triggering to them. So avoidance just doesn't mean silently sitting there quietly and happily. A lot of times, it's you give them a look, you know, the Gottman work about the rolled eyes, how damaging that is, you know,

Okay. So, as people are perhaps thinking about being aware of this edge of the 8%, it sounds like you're saying pay attention to your internal state reactivity or activation. So the nervous system, so that might be a tight stomach, it might feel like the heart is racing. Can you give some other signals that might, people might pay attention to?

Yeah, we actually say your body is your early warning system. Some people feel heat. My business partner JP feels heat in his forehead. I'm. I coached a woman who, whenever she was in a meeting with a difficult person, would get red in the neck area. You can imagine what her clothing strategy was for those meetings. Scars and turtlenecks are wearable. Self-awareness. She just needed to learn the self management so she wouldn't get red. But it was a good start. So, yes, you'll notice my hands shake a little bit. So if I'm in a meeting and I feel my. I notice my hands shaking a little bit, that's a signal to me that, “hey, you know what? My emotional system has started to kick up. I'm not going to be at my best. And so I need to do something.” We'll talk about the. What you can do, but right now, the awareness, the other thing that people can notice. So there's your body, then there's your thinking. You become more polarized. We can move to yes, no, right, or wrong. I mean, if you ever walked into that meeting and there's no way we're doing this, you walk out. We're doing it because you want to please people. You don't want to upset people you don't want to like. So, just sometimes our thinking can become very scattered. I can't think clearly right now because you are triggered. And in fact, when you get triggered, you actually lose some working memory. You actually can't think as clearly. So that's a second way to become aware that you're starting to get triggered. And then the final one we talk about is your behavior. So if I start interrupting people in a meeting, I mean, ask me in a calm moment, should I interrupt people? Is that a good relationship behavior or leadership behavior? No, of course not. But get me a little triggered, you know, and I start to. So sometimes you can. Or hey, I'm not saying anything. I'm not speaking up. My relationship person is coming at me, and I'm just shutting down. So you can notice from your behavior as well.

Got it. So, noticing the body cues and then the thinking that perhaps we might get hyper fixated on a strategy or an idea, or we get fuzzy, and it just feels like it's.

We amplify the negative. No, you do CBT. So you know all about, you know, kind of the negative thinking.

Yes.

So yeah, there are a lot of different ways we can notice in our thinking that we're triggered emotionally.

Yes. And then the behavior noticing. Okay. And then as people build awareness, what is likely true is that there's going to be A learning curve. And also, as one starts to learn, they have more information and can further work with that. Oh, I tend to interrupt, or I tend to shut down. I'm paying attention, so I know that's one of my cues behaviorally.

Yes, I feel it happening. So that's the self-awareness piece.

Okay, great. And then, as far as these high-pressure situations, part of what you're recommending is not avoid. And then, as I mentioned earlier, people sometimes don't know what to do. So if they feel that pressure or that activation shutting down or like calming the situation, let's not say anything we don't mean. Like, that's not actually a bad thing. And then, if we don't ever come back to it, it can have real costs long term. So talk to people about what you're recommending people to do.

Yeah, I mean, we wrote a book calledPerforming Under Pressure, right? Back in 2015, it still applies just as much today as it did 10 years ago. My, my business partner, JP Pawliw-Fry, is one of the lead authors. And there are 22 pressure solutions in the middle section. And I don't love all 22, but there are six or seven that are my go-to. One of them is just so obvious. It's the breathing. But chemically, the intake of a large amount of oxygen interacts with the cortisol and the adrenaline of the amygdala. The emotional system releases. And so there's actually a chemical reason to. It gets you some of your working memory back. You become less critical, judgmental, and reactive. So number one is breathing. Number two, you mentioned the pause. Not as an avoidance strategy, but to do something so that you can re-engage more skillfully. That can be as simple as drinking a glass of water. It can also be, hey, let's take a 10-minute break and come back to this.

Excuse me, I need to go to the restroom. I'll be right back.

Anything, Anything. Stand up, stretch. So any kind of pause, I think, you know, works as you get some of your cognitive functioning back. The empathy piece is what is their intention? Because we tend to react to someone's impact, not their intention. So most people don't have a negative intention. They're just, they're reacting for their own reasons. One quote I really love is that people don't think about things for us. They do things for their own reasons or react like we're doing something to them.

Curious and not perhaps buckle up or fight the strategy? I think people often lead with a strategy that doesn't always reveal what their need is or what their interest is. And getting really curious, I think it is such. It's almost like I call it an aikido move. But people who aren't familiar, maybe a matrix move of being able to get off that kind of, not absorbing whatever that initial strategy or attack might sound, but in a kind of getting past that, letting it move by you, and then staying curious to stay with the person to get out, and then that potentially talks to us. I get my own ideas.

Well, one of the metaphors we use, and it's actually the reason I have the background I have, is called getting to the other side of the bridge. But any relationship, let's say there's no bridge there, and you're on your side, and they're way over there on their side. Most people, when they step in to deal with stuff, they start from their side of the bridge, their needs, their trigger there. Well, think about whether you could go over to the other side. Literally go over there, literally. Look from there, let go of all your stuff, which is, yeah, the self-regulation. Go over there and look at it from their perspective, and build the bridge backwards. We try to build the bridge from our side, build the bridge from the way of the other. Right there, right there. Build the bridge from that side backwards. Looking at it from their perspective, one of the reasons that this is so hard to do is that we think that means we have to be wrong. We think that means we have to give in. We confuse sympathy and empathy. So going over to this side of the bridge doesn't mean they're right, that you're agreeing with them. You're simply seeing it from their perspective. Validating, not agreeing, validating. But don't get stuck on that side of the bridge. Because some people get stuck on that side of the bridge, and sympathy comes back to your side of the bridge, but you'll be more likely to build it because you started from their side. So that's one of the empathy models that we have, which is building a bridge from there.

I love that. I love that. And if I'm trying on how I experience these principles, that if I'm going to the other shore and building a bridge, I haven't lost what's important to me. So I might have more creative ideas around how to build the bridge that reaches. Also, my point of interest, which I'm not going to build a bridge to.

A different shore relationship. I might think I'm the one who was hurt, I'm the victim, and you were hurt. Yes. But can you see it from their perspective to think, well, maybe they were coming from a place of hurt?

Totally.

Like, why would they have done what they did? That's the intention. Did they mean to hurt me? Was it on purpose? I mean, I know some relationships get to the point where it's toxic, and that does happen, but I'm not talking about those relationships. I'm talking about most relationships where the other person is love, there is care, there is respect, but they're triggered, they're on their side of the bridge. So. Yes, can you get over the other side of the bridge and then see even though you have your hurt on your side, you're not letting go of that? You're giving that up. You're just starting to see it from the other person's side first.

Yes. Because if people get stuck in the injustice and try to correct that, it's taking an exit ramp around what's important and spending a lot of time when it might not actually result in resolution, in my experience. I have a quick story. People who have listened to the show may have heard this before, but this was probably about a year plus. Sadly, tragically, my sister-in-law lost her significant other. He passed away. He had some health issues. So it wasn't totally unexpected, but it was, it wasn't known, obviously young. And so we're at the breakfast table, and it was like the day after, and I was sharing with my husband that I had sent a text to his sister and was expressing my heartfelt condolences, and he kind of got upset with me. And I was so like initially, like defensive in the sense of like, I didn't do anything wrong. Like, “what's the problem?”

Natural. Yeah.

Reaction for whatever reason. I mean, it was obviously a very tender situation, and it wasn't my sister. So I may have taken a deep breath. I don't even remember what I did, but I did.

Probably did.

Yes. And I did try to just stay hovering in that moment. And it is hard to pause because we feel like we need to keep talking. And so I think I'm fighting tigers.

The brain thinks it's fighting tigers. It thinks it needs to react right away. Yes. Yeah.

So I'm eating my breakfast or drinking my decaf or whatever it was. And then I'm pondering. I'm like, what in the world? Like, we're fine. We're not in a fight, or he's not mad at me for other reasons. So I'm like, what are the possibilities? I'm trying to get curious. And I'm like, oh, is he protective? Like, he's done a lot of grief work, and I just wondered out loud. And he's like, yes, I'm feeling protective that she's getting overwhelmed. And I was like, oh, like, I don't like the way you jumped on down my throat.

Right.

And I can so appreciate how tender and protective you are of her. And I can lean in on that. I can build a bridge around that.

That is such a great intention impact story. Because you were impacted.

Yes.

His intention was not to impact. He intended to protect his sister.

Yes.

Also, a great empathy story. And by the way, this whole idea of getting to the other side of the bridge, I mean, that's all empathy is. You know, I have degrees in math. Math and computer science. I thought it was all icky and squishy. But it's not. It's just. Can you get out of your own frame of reference and go to this without letting go of your stuff? Go to this side of the bridge for a while. But thank you. That's a really great story.

I would have preferred him to say, oh, that's really sweet. And I also feel really protective. And we're not always that skillful. And I have my own stories where I'm not skillful.

So I'm sure you had a lot of empathy for what he was going through and why he reacted. He did. And I think that's such a great example of. People don't do things to us. They do things for themselves.

Yes.

We connect with what they're doing for themselves. 

We often think, oh, it's. The other person has to change. That's the other big thing in. And I know you do this in therapy and in coaching, which is focused on yourself. Because at the end of the day, you really can only control your behavior and how you show up. Start there. I mean, eventually you may need to set boundaries, express your needs, all of that. That's important. But start with yourself.

I love that. Thank you, Bill. I know we're winding down here, and I also want to ask about shame and these high-pressure situations. When you talk about people who have had previous life experiences where they've had some level of relational trauma or have felt levels of shame, this often can get activated in these high pressures. So what would you want to help people consider around shame in these types of dynamics?

I mean, if you feel like that could be something that is activating you, as you said, that's coming from some history. I'd say get therapy, like get a therapist. I mean, because a lot of times that's deep. It certainly was for me. Mine comes from my childhood, and I've had to do some, some deep work on that. So I mean, yeah, I mean, maybe start with a business coach, but if it needs, if it feels deeper, that's where therapy comes in. That's the incredible value of therapy. Because I had a whole bunch of shame and stuff I didn't know I had until I started working with a therapist and uncovering all this stuff and realizing. So yeah, I mean, I'd recommend a therapist if that's something someone feels they're struggling with.

Okay, thank you. And then how about for the person that is attempting to address 8% conversation and notices signals of shame, whether or not it's something they're saying, like, oh, it's never good enough or something like that. What would you?

 I would almost say the same thing. Find a mentor, find a coach, find somebody to bounce things off of. Find somebody. Because it's so hard to do this stuff ourselves. I mean, certainly, you know, gosh, go to our website, look it up all the way. There are videos and all kinds of stuff. You can, lots of self-learners. I love that. We have a Harvard Business Review article on all of this. So there's, you know, there's lots of content you can go find that's from us and others. 

And so having a mirror, having somebody bounce off you, having somebody who maybe will push back a little bit and say, you know, Bill, what you just told me, that doesn't sound right. I mean, are you sure about like so, and it can be a formal coach, or it can just be a best friend, or a spouse, or partner, if this is a business problem. So yeah,

Oh my gosh. And when we add culture and language and meaning-making. Right. Like, there's a lot and then power differentials. Right. The sensitivity here and how we might approach it. Is there anything you want to say about how to be more sensitive, so that it might activate shame in another, or if there are power differentials, that these are not reasons not do it. But how again peopleare learning how to do this in a way that can be with some regulation and brain online, and also the sensitivity to what might be high stakes, like what might not be a high stakes conversation for one person could be a high stakes conversation for another.

Absolutely happens. That happens all the time. You don't even realize it. So I mean, I think if I were to leave with a couple of pieces of advice. One is to start with yourself.

That was difficult because of what happened yesterday. I want to understand more about what was going on for you. I understand maybe what you were feeling, what you were thinking, starting on this side of the bridge.

I love that. And that can hit the mark of being sensitive to all these different layers because we don't have to be a master linguist and culturally proficient in all different cultures. Like, we can really seek to understand their side and learn and build bridges from there. I love that. Okay, great. Thank you, Bill. And for people who are interested in what your company is up to, where would you like to invite people to go?

Yeah, there are two places. One is our website, which is ihhp.com. I know it's a bit of a mouthful. It's the Institute for Health and Human Potential. So ihhp.com and then I'm pretty active on LinkedIn. I share the latest research, I share the latest ideas, and the latest posts from others. So Bill Benjamin on LinkedIn. Feel free to reach out. I love hearing from folks, questions, and challenges. I'm very active in this work.

Excellent. I will make sure to have the link to your LinkedIn as well as the website. And just for people listening, is there anything you would instruct on, like where would be a good place to start on the website? What people?

I think our resources section has a lot of we have assessments, we have, you know, videos, we have case studies, we have a lot of, you know, different resources, white papers, etc. If that's where they want to start. By the way, from a business perspective, if somebody's thinking of this more for their business. Our Harvard Business Review article, called the Secret of High performing teams is really, really good around this whole concept of The Last 8% and how it drives culture. So I know we're focused a little bit more on the personal relationships, but for anybody who is in a business and wants to apply this, that Harvard Business Review article is a great article. It's really well done.

Great. I will put the link on today's Show Notes. I know you've really done a good job of referencing the business, as this is the bulk of your work, and also just how relevant it is, and how it translates and applies to the intimate space. Thank you so much for being here with us.

It was great to be here. I think we could do this for another couple hof ours, but we probably lost everyone, so this was really enjoyable. Thank you, Jessica, for having me.