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Ever notice how the smallest trigger in your relationship—a tone of voice, a lingering look, or a forgotten chore—can suddenly feel like a five-alarm fire? The truth is, most couples aren’t fighting about the dishes or the laundry; they’re struggling against the undercurrents of stress, anxiety, and unspoken needs that simmer just beneath the surface. When these emotions erupt, it’s not just about the task at hand but the deep human urge to be seen, valued, and connected. Left unchecked, these survival-driven stress responses can turn moments of misunderstanding into cycles of blame, defensiveness, or painful silence.

In this episode, you’ll discover a refreshing reframe of stress in intimate relationships—not as a signal to run or shut down, but as an invitation to meaningful connection and growth. Learn how to recognize your triggers, transform heightened emotions into curiosity and constructive action, and tap into the power of vulnerability—even in the heat of conflict. Through practical strategies, thought-provoking questions, and powerful mindset shifts, this conversation is packed with insights to help you break free from old reaction patterns, deepen trust, and turn even your toughest moments into a pathway for a stronger partnership.

Dr. Rebecca Heiss is a Stress Physiologist and full-time keynote speaker residing in Greenville, South Carolina, who has worked with household names like VISA, P&G, SHRM, Bloomberg, and Northwestern Mutual. Dr. Heiss hails from a small town in upstate NY! She grew up playing basketball and football in the backyard with her sister and neighborhood kids. Basketball stuck with her, and she continues to enjoy playing with friends today while promoting her co-founded non-profit, Gamechanger Basketball.

Episode Highlights

03:40 Discover how personal loss led to a life-changing approach to handling stress.

08:42 Learn why our brains react so strongly in relationships—and how to respond differently.

11:37 Find out how curiosity can replace fear and build a deeper connection during stress.

14:41 Get simple, real-life tools for managing conflict and assessing vulnerability.

19:01 Uncover powerful questions that can turn arguments into understanding.

20:51 Explore a three-step process for navigating stress as a team and how to use this method to resolve everyday relationship challenges.

26:25 Discover why embracing—not avoiding—stress leads to more meaning and growth.

39:40 Quick, physical techniques anyone can use to release tension.

40:58 How community, service, and the right resources can transform your stress.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

• Pause and Breathe: When feeling stressed or triggered, take a moment to pause with a deep inhale and exhale to help settle your nervous system.
• Invite the Tiger In: Instead of avoiding stress, consciously sit with the discomfort for three minutes to allow yourself to fully experience and acknowledge it.
• Get Curious: Ask yourself, “What is this stress here to help me do?” to start shifting out of a blame mindset and into a place of productive inquiry.
• Connect with Others: Reflect on “Who do I need to connect with?”—be it your partner, a friend, or even a part of yourself—to seek support and reduce isolation.
• Use Physical Outlet: If you’re more nonverbal, move your body (e.g., fast feet, punching a pillow, yelling—in a safe space) to help release stress energy.
• Name Your Feelings: Verbally recognize and share your emotional state with your partner, such as “I’m feeling defensive,” to foster vulnerability and mutual understanding.
• Set a Break Word: Agree on a lighthearted code word as a couple to pause heated discussions, allowing each person to process and return with more clarity.
• Direct Your Energy Constructively: After working through the initial stress, focus on what you need—whether it’s an apology, to be heard, or a behavior change—and express this clearly to your partner.

Mentioned

Instinct (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Springboard (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Man's Search for Meaning (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication (free guide)

Connect with Dr. Rebecca Heiss

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If you have a topic you would like to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

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Episode Transcript

Dr. Rebecca, thank you for joining us today. 

Thank you so much for having me on. I'm really looking forward to it. 

Yeah. And you are a stress psychologist. And I don't know if many people know what that is. Can you briefly give some context to your background? 

Yeah, sure. Actually, I'm a stress physiologist, so. Yeah, that got very. 

Okay. 

Okay. 

I've never heard of stress psychology. 

Yeah. Okay. This happens a lot. I get introduced all the time as a stress psychologist, which is not far off. Yes, physiologists. So I studied the hormones that affect our behavior and ultimately, you know, why we react the way we do under stress and pressure? And then I help people sort of transform that stress energy and use it differently. So that's what I do. 

Great. Thank you. And then how did you become interested in this particular, like, aspect? 

I'm a pretty stressed-out person. I think very often people who have high stress or high anxiety end up going into the field that I'm in because we really want to resolve it for ourselves. And you know, I was in school, I was studying and understanding behavior as a result, and I just kept going to school because it felt like it was so exciting to me to be able to understand my own behavior better, and then ultimately to be able to help others. Was this incredible gift, bringing it out of the lab? Right. And into the real world to apply these actions? 

Yes. Well, I love that you share about your personal experience, and also having played sports competitively. There are different elements around where we find. Find ourselves or where we are. The spaces that we're in might add levels of pressure, add levels of stress, and allow us to perform in this more optimal zone. And that's something that. 

Yeah, well, yeah. And I'll say if you don't know the longer version of the story that you just heard. There was a moment when I was in academia, and unfortunately, my sister-in-law, who was like a sister to me, was diagnosed with terminal cancer. And it's one of those moments, right, that pulls the. And everybody has these moments in their life, right? Whether it's a divorce or a terminal diagnosis, or there are stressful events that are going to happen. And in that moment, I took a look at my own life, and 

So I quit my job, sold my house, and divorced my husband that month. I'm not recommending this. It was a really stressful move, but it really helped me and forced me into that space where I was really

So, if I'm understanding you, it sounds like you were recognizing that making fear-based choices results in stress. 

Well, yeah, I mean, I think a longer-term stress, it's more like a slow boil. Right. And I've been sitting in that simmering space for a long time, and I decided to turn up the heat and, really, you know, I made a really stressful move, three of them in fact. But ultimately, it was something that gave me the relief that I needed, and I was able to utilize that stress differently. 

Aha. Okay. Thank you for clarifying. And so it sounds like you were noticing things of discontent that perhaps you were avoiding. 

Okay, there it is. Yeah, that's our natural move. And it's what we're told to do so frequently. When advised on how to manage stress, it's often, well, go get a massage or self-care or go do yoga. Look, all of those things are great, don't get me wrong, but they're not going to relieve your stress. Right. We're running away from these tigers. We're running away from the stressful things that we're going to have to deal with, and they don't go away. So whether it's a difficult conversation or something. Something else. 

Yes. And so people who are listening to that. What, what might you say about patterns that they might recognize that are in the neighborhood of what you're describing? 

Yeah, I mean, I think very frequently, and it's a natural pattern of avoidance, procrastination, avoiding difficult conversations, running away, sometimes fighting. Right. It's the fight, flight, freeze response that is 

Yes. 

And the problem, of course, is that in this modern environment,

And so we end up in avoidance or procrastinating or running away or picking a fight because it's natural for our brain to do that. Unfortunately, it's not necessarily the most healthy. 

Choice, and perhaps it's not addressing the deeper patterns or underlying feelings. So nothing really, actually, gets resolved. 

Yeah, I mean, one of the things that I tell people is to invite the tiger in for tea. So, “I call these external stressors tigers because that's the way our brain treats them. Like a life and death animal that's coming to kill us kind of situation.”

Yes. 

And my ask of people is, wait, wait, it's not a tiger. Right. In the next three minutes, you're not going to be dead if you sit with it. So invite the tiger in for tea and sit with it for three minutes. Feel it. Right. Acknowledge it, understand it. Allow your body to go to that physiological state where it's going to be heightened, and then remember like you're still alive. So this isn't something that's actually going to kill you. Despite all the warning bells going off. 

In our brains, as humans, we're looking. Well, we're fueled by the activation of the nervous system, which is what you're describing, and our survival mechanisms at play. And I will say an intimate relationship, it could just literally be a tone of voice, it could be a snarky look, and we can feel the activation beginning. And usually this happens in nanoseconds. And I agree that our nervous system registers the bonding and intimate relationship as survival. So when that feels threatened, we get into that hijacked tiger place. 

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. 

And so what you're saying is if you can tolerate some of that, and you're not even saying calm, get back into regulation. You're actually, you're staying. Go ahead. 

Yeah, please don't try to calm down. It's like the worst advice people give themselves. Okay, I have to calm down here. Okay, first of all, you can't do it physiologically. You cannot just calm down. Right. If you tell your adrenal glands, please don't release adrenaline right now, they don't listen. Yeah, yeah. So, 

and then we stress out even more because we're not regulating, and oh, how can everybody else do this? And I can. 

I see red. What's wrong with me? I didn't say things. 

Yeah, exactly. Release yourself from that, and then, to your point, sit in it, sit in it. Notice the trigger. And one of the cool things about the stress response that I don't think gets talked about enough is the release of oxytocin.So the bonding hormone, the connection hormone, that's a major stress hormone. So when you're having that cortisol, that first flux influx, the second hormone, like right behind, is oxytocin. So that is the. I think it's a hormone of courage asking you to reach out and connect, asking you to ask for help and to receive help. And in these intimate relationships, it behooves us to remember, actually, under stress, more than anything, I don't need to isolate. I need to connect.
And so when I invite the tiger in for tea, or I ask people to invite the tiger in for tea, there's. “There are two questions I ask them to ask themselves.” First of all, I want you to ask, what is this stress here to help me do? Because it's there to help. It truly is. This isn't a bug in our system. It's a feature. It is trying to help you to perform. It's trying to help you do something. And then the second question is, who do I need to connect with in order to accomplish this? 

Right? 

So do I need to connect with my inner child? Do I need to connect with my sister? Do I need to connect with my partner? Where do I need to have this connection so that I feel safe enough and good enough to move through the stress, not avoid it? 

I'm so appreciating this. And I did not know that oxytocin was one of the hormones that was released in this fight or flight or freeze or fawn state. So that's so fascinating. My mind's hypothesizing so many things because we, as a species, are wired for human connection. So it makes sense that's part of the. The cocktail. 

Yeah. 

Because we need to be. But so often, to your point, when we feel a level of activation, well, I would say some have a more of a tendency to reach, others have a more of a tendency to kind of shut down. And you're really inviting some inquiry here around. Can we identify what it is that is seeking attention? Can you repeat that first question again? 

Yeah, the first question is what is the stress response here to help me do? Yes, what is it here to help me do? Because the heart rate is pumping blood and oxygen to our brain to think better. It's pumping blood to our muscles so we can move. What is it that we have to do? What is it helping us to do in that moment? 

Yes. And then the second around, who do I need to connect with? Whether or not it's a part of myself or someone that I want to have a relationship with? Okay, so this is so helpful. I love the first question because so often the human tendency is to go into pointing to the thing that hurts or blaming the thing that we're triggered by. If this circumstance were different or if you wouldn't do this, then I would feel we would feel fine. And is that enough? Do you find that question being enough to slow that tendency of blaming or criticizing? 

You know, it's a good start. And what I tell people is it's really important to recognize curiosity and fear can't coexist in the brain. So the more curious we can get. I mean, this is one of the coolest things I think the feature of the brain, right? Because for 200,000 plus years nobody ever had a tiger, like an actual tiger charging them, and was like I wonder how fast it's coming or like how many stripes it's got. Right? So, when we can get curious rather than blame and point fingers, look externally for solutions, and we just stay in this mode of asking questions to ourselves, to our partner. I think that is the go-to, to really stay out of that fear, out of that's that classic stress response that's going to lead down a path that's not necessarily helpful. 

So, having those two questions in your pocket, like, okay, here's where to start, is going to be helpful. 

Okay, so as I experience, I've heard this before, and the way I'm interpreting helps me if this is true in the science of what you know. I, in practice, if I'm feeling threatened by something with my husband, and I know enough, and I can calibrate enough to be curious, I ask questions. I'm still scared, I still feel the fear, but I'm opening up like that prefrontal cortex, like the one that can get more information, and then it starts to. I start to ease into more of that curiosity and the fear lessons. But, I don't feel that it, like, goes away. 

Okay, you're nailing it. And this is so important. I'm so glad you brought this up. Yeah. I get asked all the time, well, I want to get rid of my stress. I want to get rid of. I want to be outside of it. Like, no, you don't. No, you don't. And in fact, that anxiety, that fear, that. That stress, it never goes away. 

And. 

And the reason for that is that what you're doing is important and it matters. Yes. Nobody gets stressed out over their shoe coming untied. So 

And so staying in that state and transferring some of that energy to being curious, opening up that prefrontal cortex, as you mentioned, this is what I call the transfer stage. This is where we're recognizing the energy. We're acknowledging it. We're not trying to get rid of it. We're just transferring some of it to excitement, curiosity, even. Even anger. Now, anger is directed at your partner. No, anger directed at a problem. Yeah. That's exciting. Right? Because 

I agree. I often talk about it being fuel. It's an activation. And this is giving us perhaps the momentum to do the thing we're afraid of. Right. 

There it is. 

Yeah. And, okay, so I want to go back just really quick, so we don't move, or move too far away, because it feels like an important thing to flesh out a little bit. So when you're saying, don't try to avoid that activation state. So you're saying there's a bit of calibration, but you're staying with the energy. I'm not hearing, like, oh, run if you're feeling like you want to run or fight if you want to fight. Like, you're not saying, like, fully embody the activation without any guidance. Like, tell. Can you say? Because sometimes people do feel like they want to hit, throw, whatever, and it's. 

That's authentic. Yeah. 

Right. Like, can you help? 

Yeah. Yes. This is great. So three minutes of screaming terror is what I talk about. Like that, when we have our stress response, it is really built for three minutes of screaming terror through a savannah,through a jungle, getting chased by a wild tiger bear, or, you know, something. Something that's going to eat and kill and eat us. 

Yeah. 

So I ask people to. For three minutes. Like, I keep something I call a disaster diary. And I will cognitively spit out onto the page. 

Yeah, yeah. 

All of the disaster, all of the, like, here's my anger, here's my frustration, and. And I will clench my one fist, and I will write with the other furiously. But I'll set a timer for three minutes. And when that three-minute ding, I release my fist, I read through. I force myself to be cognitive. This is the, like, name entertainment kind of thing, right? I'm literally naming all of my fe. All of my anxieties. I'm forcing them onto the page, which, when we write, we have to use our frontal cortex. So I'm starting to engage a little bit. And all of that energy, it's not. I'm not trying to push it aside.

I'm not trying to push it away. I'm putting it onto something that I can then begin to use. So again, the activation is going to happen. 

You're directing in constructive ways. 

That's it. 

Okay, that's it. So you're not trying to bypass or not feel what you're feeling. You're trying to stay in the energy and give it a voice, give it a way to exist, but in a constructive way. 

Exactly. Okay. Exactly. 

“What does this look like in a relationship?” Like, I have my own ideas, but I would love to hear from you because it doesn't look like, oh, okay, I need a little bit of a break. I'm gonna go do my process or talk to us a little bit about how this looks live in action. 

Sure. “And this is going to look different for every couple. This is really important. Some people are so good at this. They can feel it. They feel that elevation. You're like, oh, we're going to take a break. Sometimes you get to the point where, like, oh, gosh, voices are raised.” I'm hearing the tone differently, or I can't hear it in myself. I'll be honest. I am a stress physiologist. I preach this. And when I get heightened, I can't hear my tone shift. I've actually recorded a conversation before with a partner and gone back and listened to it, and I'm like, I'm horrified because I just. I. I feel like I'm being so kind and talking like this, and, like, please tell me. 

Nope. 

So I highly recommend, you know, having some kind of word or something silly and easy to just go, you know what, zebra? I don't know. I just saw the zebra thing behind the zebra. This is a zebra moment. Let's step back. Let's spend three minutes just, like, going into it for ourselves. So all the energy isn't pointed at the partner. 

I. 

And anybody can call it. 

Right. 

It can be an alert at any time. So if my partner calls it, okay, I didn't even think I was heightened. And I can't come back with that important because so often I'm like, what zebra? What are you talking about? I'm not heightened at all. 

Right? 

So just. Just take that time. And. And three minutes really is a nice reset. It allows you to get into it, feel it all, and then return. And my ask is, whenever you return, whenever you come back, start with a question. 

Right? 

Start with a question. Yeah. 

And I wonder if, as someone who is in practice with this, they'll be able to access it. So I'm reminded of, like, so I've been doing this, but I would usually do it for 20 minutes because I had so many things to say. Not so much anymore, but I used to. And it was fueled by a lot of anxiety or threat, or just a description of how my partner offended or crossed the line in some way. So all the justifications. But I would spend that time. But then I would typically get to a golden nugget around, okay, here's my vulnerability, or here's my deeper worry. And then I remember having had a few years of doing that, and then we were in the car together, and it's a heated conversation, and just the slowing down and just pausing and breathing. 

I didn't really have a pain, a piece of paper to access. I didn't, but I just was quiet with it. Sometimes we speed up when we're in an escalated place, right? So fighting and then even the mental kind of just going through it mentally. And then I recognized I was afraid he didn't want to resolve it because sometimes he has a little bit more of a shutdown tendency. I have a little bit more of a pursuer tendency. And so I just needed to know that, like, he wanted to work on it. That was all that I needed. And I was like. But it was so vulnerable to say it, Rebecca. I was like, it's terrifying. 

Yeah, of course it's. What. Because. Because what if he says no? 

Right. 

You know, and that is. That is our deep fear. I think there's a lot of value in. For me, one of the questions that I love, 

Because, you know, we'll spiral, we'll do this, like, a chase thing where it's like, you're not getting it. This is what. 

Yeah. 

So what is it that I'm missing? What am I missing here? Because you love the person. You, at some level, are in this relationship for a reason. 

Right. 

You love the person; they presumably love you. I am missing. What am I not seeing? What am I not hearing? And how do we resolve this? Like, what is the thing that shuts the thing down? Right. Is it. Do you need an apology?  Do you just need to be heard? Do you need what is that thing that you know, and you're working toward that goal together? 

Oh, I so appreciate that question. It gets at an opportunity of accessing more of that vulnerability, I would think, because so often people hope in partnership that they tell the story and then expect their partner to decode what it is that they're needing or what the fear is. That's right. Like, I give you all the information. Can't you see? 

This is so obvious. Yeah. 

But then the person's like, I would not describe it that way. Let me tell you how I would describe it. And then they're caught up in the narrative. So this is helpful to direct attention to. 

Yeah. And I also, sometimes, you know, one of the things that I've learned in partnerships is sometimes I just need you to hear how I feel. That's it. You are not allowed to respond for the day. Tomorrow you can come back and tell me how you feel. 

Yeah. 

And I'm not allowed to respond for the day. And then we can put it to bed. But that way it's not a back and forth. Right. Because that's just going to continue to spiral. And our nervous systems never feel safe. 

Yes. And there's a holding there. That I think sometimes when we don't hold with that deepened understanding of just contemplating what your partner said, we might not absorb to the degree or have even the empathy to like, oh, if it was me, is it like this, or just really getting the nuances?

And I think the learning. I don't know if this hearkens back to your overall process, and I would love to get to your stressborn life, but that's the energy that's getting activated, how much it means to us that's. So there's a reason. Right. You said that. Something's alerting us. We want to look at the message and what it has to teach us. And in a relationship, there's an opportunity for perhaps deepening the dynamic in a way that is. Works better, or like, what's the learning here? 

“So we're not just having an outburst and then, like, quelling it and then, like, revisiting and having a similar one. These perpetual things, like, we can actually learn.” 

“Yeah. Grow. Otherwise, what's the point?” Yeah. What's the point? Why do you even bring it up? Yeah, it's huge. I love that. Yeah, it's huge.  I call that my trajectory stage. So there's. I mean, you wanted to get into the formula. There are three stages. We've kind of gone through the first two. 

Right. 

The first one is that it's not a tiger. If it's not a tiger, I can invite it in for tea. I can acknowledge it. I can feel it, because it's not actually going to kill me. The second is the transfer stage. So we’re feeling all the energy. We're going to transfer it into adventure. We're going to transfer it into curiosity. We're going to transfer it into productive anger. We're going to use that heightened emotion for something else. And then the third is trajectory. So, where am I pointing this? Where does this land? Right. And frequently, what people do in this moment is inaction. They sit back, and they're like, nope, because I've learned in previous relationships, or I have a story in my head of learned helplessness. And so nothing's going to change as a result. I won't bother. 

I'm just going to sit back and accept it. And that builds, obviously, massive amounts of resentment and more fear because you can't be authentic in your relationship. So the trajectory is the learning. Like, where do we point this together so that we both understand we come to a new level of learning, and we can level up and not have this happen again. Because when it spirals, we both understand each other better. 

Thank you. Have an example for people to really connect with or anchor with. 

I'm going to try to think about this in a relationship situation. So, well, let's just do. I'll just walk through it. I don't have an example. We'll see how this goes. So

Okay. So I go to my partner, and I say, you know, I've been taking out the trash all the time. I do all the laundry. I do all of the dishes. I would just like some acknowledgement. All right? Immediately, my partner is probably going to be triggered. 

Right. 

More than likely, they feel like there are fingers pointing at them, and they have this stress response. So invite the tiger in. I'm not. I'm not a tiger. I'm not going to kill you. Right. This is just a venting of information. We're going to invite that in. We're going to get curious. Rebecca, how would it feel or what would it look like for you to be acknowledged in this? 

Right. 

What is it that you need here? Do you need me to pick up the slack? Do you need to feel like I'm seeing the things that you do? What is the goal? So I've transferred the energy now to, or the partner has transferred the energy now to curiosity, and we're pointing it towards a trajectory. And the point there in that trajectory is, are we trying to get to a solution? Like, do you need something to change? I need to take an action. Or do you need to feel acknowledged, or do you just need to be heard? What is that? Because now I'm taken aback, and I'm like, wait, I was heightened because I was feeling really angry about this, and now I'm like, wait, what do I want? Do I want to vent? Do I want you to pick up the slack? 

The curiosity has to go both ways because I don't think very often we. We pick fights knowing what we want as a result, right? So, like, I know I pick fights all the time. Like, wait, do I want an apology or do I want you to do something? It's important. It's really important to understand that. So hopefully that's a. That's a useful example. 

It is. Thank you. So, in the one that was listening or being addressed with the complaint or the concern, and you were saying that the partner might have some level of activation. So they're holding the energy, and they're inviting curiosity to ask the question. So it's a bit of tolerating the heightened state, but inviting curiosity to then transfer channel? 

Yeah, it's feeling it. Right. It's acknowledging it. 

And. 

And even that partner saying and expressing vulnerability. Rebecca, you know, this is really triggering for me. I feel really heightened right now because I feel like you're pointing at me. And I need to understand what I can do about this. Right? Like, it's 

because again, I can easily come back, be like, well, that's not what I meant. I'm not. This isn't about you. 

I took out the dress yesterday. 

Yeah, yeah, right. This is easily isolated or easily escalated. So, you know, allowing the other partner to have those feelings and express those feelings. 

Yes. 

And sitting in that as well and going, okay, it's okay to continue to get heightened. This is okay. And this is probably going to happen. So the trying to control the stress response is not our. Is not our job. It's going to happen. You're going to get emoted. The idea is where do you go together. 

Point that energy and not perhaps losing yourself thinking that there's like trying to suppress it and fight it, but then it kind of overwhelms the system, and then we're kind of lost in it. I'm kind of hearing and help me if this feels right, but we can acknowledge. I really love just the metacognition of like or meta conversation around. Here's what's happening for me, or here's what I'm noticing. Right. And it's like, you matter so much to me. I'm afraid I did something to upset you, or I feel a little bit like an alarm here. So let me help organize, or can I ask you a coupleof questions to kind of seek more understanding, or I'm feeling defensive. Can we just slow down so I can, you know, understand here? 

So I think there are lots of ways to do this, and it is tricky. It's. It happens so fast. 

Yeah. But Jessica, to your point, like, the second I hear you saying I'm feeling a little X right now, like, immediately. First of all, it takes incredible vulnerability to say that. And. But immediately, it knocks me out. My horse a little bit, and I'm like, oh, yeah, you're an emotion. You're an emotional creature, too. Okay. Okay. We're in this together, and it puts us kind of back on the same side. 

It's disarming. 

It is disarming. Yeah, it is. 

So, for the one that I don't know if you find this, but I imagine either in partnership, one or both people, more of this avoidant tendency. It's almost like you're inviting a reframe on stress and what gets activated. And so I guess if you want to speak to. If the reframe feels right for you. Any thoughts about that? And then secondly, for let's say the dynamic where one is more comfortable addressing and using what is brought up as information and trying to learn from it, and the other one isn't. And they're more avoidant, and it's even though the conversations and they. In a more regulated state, they're like, yes, that sounds really lovely. And yet I just continue. Yes, yes. 

Yeah. This is a really, this is a tricky pattern. And I'll be really honest with you, this is not my area of expertise. My area of expertise is understanding the stress response and avoidant behaviors. They're really challenging. They're really challenging. But here's what I'll say to it. It's natural, and it's normal, right? You're running away from the stress response. It's natural, and it's normal. And the reframe piece, I think, is so important because to me, again, the most purposeful and meaningful lives are full of stress. So this was a 2013 study, right, looking at what brings life meaning and purpose. And the number one correlate was past stressful events, current state of stress, even future worry and anxiety. 

And so when we reframe all of these conflicts, 

This is important, what that means is that rather than seeing this as a problem and then, particularly for avoidance, you're running away from the very thing that is bringing meaning and purpose to your life. If you can pause there for a second and say, wait a second, I am actually running away. I am avoiding the thing that's bringing meaning and purpose to my life. That's a moment to go, okay, maybe there's a little shift that I can make where I can begin to run at that roar, or just take a step toward the roar. You don't have to run at it, just take a step toward it. 

Because again, stress isn't going away, and the more we can move through it, the better life will be. 

Yes, we're in, we're advocating for what matters. We're in co-creation of the really meaningful things. 

That's it. 

So I mean, conversely, going back to your origin story that we can be avoiding, and then things I don't know. 

That is exactly. Oh, no, it's okay. Yeah, lay it on. 

But from people who notice that because the stress doesn't go away, or the injury or the pain doesn't go away, so we avoid it, we might get that short-term relief. But what you're really describing is we're in service of the long-term gain, and that if we have this accumulation, short-term relief, avoid, avoid. We're participating in a life that isn't what we want. 

You're complicit in your own stress. And that it's so hard to hear. It's such a hard thing to say to people. It's such a hard thing to receive. But when  I think of it this way, it's sometimes helpful. I've asked people to think about a project or an accomplishment that they're most proud of. Okay, so go ahead and do that then. I want you to go back in time to when you were in the middle of that project. What was your stress level on a scale of 0 to 100? And I guess I'm guessing you can guess the data on it. Right.

Most people are stressed out of their minds when they're doing their most meaningful, purposeful work. 
And so

Wow, I'm so proud of that. I'm so proud that we did that we were able to move through that together. It's pretty powerful to reconcile with that and go, oh yeah, I don't want to run away from that. 

No kidding. I'm also aware. Rebecca, I don't know if you feel like this is important or relevant to the stress curve. I remember, in my pre-doc internship, I worked at San Jose State University, and I was trying to help students understand the stress curve because I think in modern life we'll get the somewhat message that if we drive harder, we push harder, that we are going to just. There's like this endless reserve of energy, but we often run up against a drop off in where. So, do you want to describe that if it feels right? 

Yeah, sure. 

I think at an optimal. If we're too stressed. Right. Like that can compromise our system if we're not stressed and not. No. 

Okay, so I'm gonna. Yeah, I'm gonna push back on this. 

Yeah, so. 

So what you're describing is the Yerkes-Dodson curve. Right. Which is what it looks for listeners. It looks like an upside-down you. All right, so if you have no stress in your life, you're, I don't know, you're a trust fund baby. Everything's made like you don't have a lot of stress. You also don't have a lot of performance. So your performance is very low. As you're aware, maybe a deadline's coming up. And you're like, oh gosh, I have been procrastinating. Your performance increases to a point, and then, according to the Yerkes-Dodson curve, you start to crash, right? It's too much stress, and you can't do it. And you've pulled an all-nighter, and it's just your performance crashes. So that's been the traditional model of stress for decades. And I actually pushed back on this a little bit. And here's why: Olympic athletes break world records when the pressure and the stress are at their peak, right? So they actually can perform really at their very best under tremendous pressure and stress. So what does that mean? What that means is that so much of stress is what we create here. 

So yes, there are all kinds of external factors that you can't control. You know, those are major stressors, and they're going to affect your performance. But at the end of the day, a lot of our performance and a lot of our stress is created by our internal thinking. And you know, the example I give is like lions in the wild, they go out, they hunt, they fail 80% of the time. 

Can you imagine failing 80% of the time in conversations that you're having with a loved one, or you know, you're just not communicating well, you'd be walking around all day just like, I suck. I can't. I'm like, I'm a horrible human being. I don't know. Lions, when they fail, they take a nap, right? There's no, there's no internal dialogue that is like creating more stress. So one of the things that I think we can do as humans is just recognize our internal tigers and check our stories because that's often the thing that is pushing us over that hump into this decline of performance. So, I'll say one more thing here because I think this is really fascinating. This is another 2013 study looking at 30,000 Americans over eight years. 

And they looked at people who had very high levels of stress and asked them, do you believe that stress is bad for your health? And people who had very high levels of stress, who believed that their stress was bad for them, died at a 43% higher mortality rate. Wow, that's huge, right? And that's kind of fitting based on that original Yerkes-Dodson curve. Like you're starting to crash.

The most interesting thing about this study was that the same people who had very high levels of stress but believed that stress wasn't bad for them had the lowest mortality rates of the entire study, lower than people who had very little stress in their lives. 

What that means is over the course of eight years, 182,000 people died prematurely, not because of too much stress, but because of the belief that stress was bad for them. That's wild, right? 

I know. My brain is like, I'm contemplating all the things that you're saying, and it makes perfect sense. I can just see for myself that when I'm in this place where I'm having the internal stress, whatever thoughts I'm having, versus when I'm not. I don't even have time to be in my head around the fears or the worries, and I'm just, you know, I'm just performing. Let's just use that language, and I'm just riding that wave, so to speak. I don't know that I feel as stressed, so I get that. That makes perfect sense. There are probably other questions I have around long-term, but of course, I still feel like you. 

Your point is really valid, and it debunks some of the stress, which is how we relate to stress, which is the bigger component that you're trying to bring our attention to. 

Absolutely. 

Okay. 

Absolutely. And you're right to question that. Right. Like, if you are living in a violent. I am not here to say, oh, good for you. Like, that's great stress, use it. No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. Let me be very clear about that. But mindset is incredibly important for. For healthy relationships to. To continue to be healthy. 

Yes, Agreed. I know we could keep talking about this. I mean, I'm thinking even about Man's Search for Meaning and how, like, just Viktor Frankl. 

Absolutely. 

In this, and how much that impacted his experience. So, I mean, really horrific circumstance. 

I mean, this is. This is fascinating stuff, though, because we. We talk all the time about PTSD. 

Yes. 

And rightly so. It affects about 8% of Americans, or I should say, 8% of Americans are diagnosed with it. I personally, I think everybody experiences ptsd. I really do. I think going through life is traumatic. But the cool thing is that nobody talks about post-traumatic growth. And 50% of people without going through any kind of protocol experience these post-traumatic growth symptoms, which, you know, you're going through something difficult. Whether it's a difficult conversation with a loved one. Whether you're having a. I mean, miscarriages, there's a million things that happen in relationships that are traumatic, truly traumatic, but they often lead to deeper connection and more sense of purpose and a greater connection to the community. So, yeah, again, it just kind of proves the point of, like, avoiding stress isn't the goal. 

It's going through it in the community and finding that purpose behind it. 

Yes, and the opportunity to metabolize very overwhelming things. Right. When you're saying, not push away, that we're able to process, and how we do that, and the learning that comes from that. So thank you so much. I know we're winding down here. I mean, to that point, just one quick note. “Do you feel like, as people get into this practice of asking the question of, like, what is in it for me to learn? Or again, that first question.” 

“Yeah, what is? What is this stress here? To help me do. 

“Help me to do. Yes. And I'm hearing that as, yeah, so help me to do that.” Perhaps it is like  I've got too much on my plate today. Right. Or that we can recognize. I just need to breathe a little bit more. Or I'm like, too tight around this, or this is something that has a lot of meaning, and I want to actually address this and create change here. 

I don't think there's any wrong response to that question. 

Okay. 

Yep. I don't think there's any wrong response to that question. 

Okay, fabulous. Okay, so the last two questions. One is for someone who's a little more nonverbal. Do you have any others? Other tips for that three-minute kind of tool, around, writing all the things down. If somebody, I don't know, I'm wondering, that's my first question. 

Yeah, yeah, sure. So, I mean, that's just what I do. That's what works for me. If you have three minutes. And so I'll say, and it's a safe space. Yes, 100%. Scream, like, yell, punch things, pillows. Don't hurt yourself, don't hurt other people, but get activated. So again, 

So if you want to do fast feet in place, run as fast as you can. That's a really great opportunity to use that energy.

And then after three minutes, if you're still alive, which you will be, your brain goes, oh, I must have outrun the tiger. You know, oh, the threat is over. 

And so we start to, like, the cortisol starts to come down at that point, and oxytocin starts to come in. And so this is a great opportunity to do whatever feels important in that moment. Again, for me, it's writing it out, but for others, it may just be like squeezing or moving. Body movement is really great in that moment. 

Yes. And somatically, we. To the point about trauma, we hold trauma or overwhelming situations in the body. So, utilizing it as a force or as a way to move, we could potentially have a new felt sense that gives us insight or access to a new understanding. 

So absolutely. 

Okay, great. Wonderful. And then I was going to ask about any type of habit or step that you want to encourage people to be more in the practice of turning towards and holding space for this. And we've talked a little bit, maybe more about the first question, and maybe you could offer something around the reach or the oxytocin. Who do I need to connect with? 

Yeah, actually, I'll cite another study because I'm a super nerd. So there's a study. It was done, I think, in 2023. And they looked at 90 different workplace interventions, things that we think are going to help our stress response, and all 90 of them failed. Like, nothing made it better. Some of it made it worse. Wow. The exception of one thing, and I'm talking like massage, coaching, like all the things that we do, there was one exception. And I love this so much, the exception to the rule, there was community service. So service to others was the one thing that actually helped to mitigate our own stress response. When we reach out and serve other people, we actually are serving ourselves. And so in partnerships, too. 

I think this is really powerful when you see the other person as part of somebody that you serve. And again, I'm not saying avoid yourself or like don't. Don't give yourself what you need, but if you can frame it as my stress response is here and it's. It's pointing to this person is important to me to point to this person. And I need to find, figure out how I can serve this person in this moment. If you both are in that mindset, you got this right. About really helps flip that switch. Yeah. 

Oh, that's powerful. Oh, thank you so much. 

You're so welcome. 

Yeah. Rebecca, I know you help and support people in various domains. Do you want to say a little bit more about your work broadly? Sure. 

Yeah. Mainly right now, I'm a keynote speaker, so I get to travel the world and talk to companies, associations, and individuals, and it's such a blessing. I mean, how lucky do I get to be able to, you know, this is my main gig. I also have a book and a master class. So my masterclass is really about anxiety, and I built it specifically mainly for millennials and Gen Z, who are really struggling right now. So anybody can take it. I'm not trying to eliminate anybody in that in those generations. But yeah, it's a pretty powerful way to help, I guess, help see stress a little bit differently. 

Excellent. And so for you, so for someone listening that perhaps has a company and is really appreciating what you're speaking about, do you offer a talk and then something to help them implement? Yeah, yeah. 

So yeah, I do keynotes, I do workshops. I've got my book, I've got a whole, actually, 150-page workbook that accompanies it. Look, we can go into this for days, weeks. Yes. Yeah. What you need is what we can deliver. So we've got a lot of customized access to resources, and I greatly appreciate you asking that question. 

Wonderful. And we want to say the name of your book. Sure. 

My latest book is called Springboard: Transform Stress to Work for You, and my previous book is called Instinct. So yeah, really excited if you all want to buy those and reach out. I always love to hear feedback, questions, ideas, and comments. I will respond to you. It might take me a minute, but I will get back to you. 

Nice. And is there a website you want to mention? 

Yeah, my website is just my name, so it's rebeccaheiss.com. You can find all of my resources, speaking, books, masterclasses, and everything there.

Excellent. Well, thank you again. I've really enjoyed all that you've shared here today. Thank you. 

Thank you, Dr. Jessica. This has been a pleasure.