Podcast: Play in new window

Subscribe: RSS

Have you ever wondered why you keep finding yourself in the same relationship patterns, no matter how hard you try to change? It’s almost as if, despite our best intentions and awareness, we’re drawn to the familiar—even if it’s painful. The fear of uncertainty trumps the discomfort of what we know, leaving many stuck in cycles of repeated conflict, unmet needs, and unclear intentions.

In this episode, listeners are guided through the origins of these repeating patterns, from early attachment experiences to later life trauma, and how they shape the template for adult relationships. The conversation explores the power of both individual and relational healing, offering practical strategies to update old habits, develop emotional intelligence, and communicate needs in ways that foster clarity and connection. If you’re ready to step out of old cycles and into more intentional, empowered relationships, this episode breaks down the tools and insights you need to begin that journey.

Dr. Molly is a licensed clinical psychologist based in Los Angeles with 16 years of experience in psychotherapy, research, and teaching at both undergraduate and graduate levels. She specializes in couples therapy and reproductive mental health, with a particular passion for supporting high-achieving women, non-traditional couples, LGBTQ+ individuals, BIPOC, and Veterans. Dr. Burrets also serves as an Adjunct Professor in the Marriage and Family Therapy Department at USC and has been featured as a relationship expert in TIME, Vogue, CBS, HuffPost, and more.

Episode Highlights

05:47 Why we repeat relationship patterns and the power of the familiar.

09:18 How early childhood attachment and trauma shape our relationships.

11:49 The dual paths of healing: Individual and relational growth.

16:35 Practicing healthy responses to triggers in relationships.

18:16 Developing self-regulation skills and navigating relationship conflict.

21:34 The value of vulnerability and facing uncomfortable outcomes.

26:50 Communicating intentions and building trust when trying new behaviors.

30:14 Navigating needs, fears, and the importance of reasonableness in relationships.

33:34 Finding and expressing your voice: Moving from silence or aggression to assertiveness.

35:42 The role of resentment and envy in recognizing your needs.

39:50 Balancing individual responsibility with relational needs and self-care.

44:00 The importance of emotional intelligence and practicing self-connection.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

• Reflect on recurring relationship patterns and notice any familiar dynamics, rather than judging or shaming yourself for them.
• Acknowledge how your early-life experiences and attachments shape your current relationship behaviors—awareness is the first step toward change.
• If you notice unmet needs or frustration, pause and bring curiosity to your reactions instead of defaulting to blame or criticism.
• Practice pausing when triggered; take a deep breath, notice sensations in your body, and consider a more thoughtful response.
• Communicate vulnerably and clearly with your partner, directly sharing your feelings and needs rather than masking them with anger or withdrawal.
• Invite support—let loved ones or professionals know you’re working on new habits and ask for feedback or guidance as you practice.
• Cultivate self-care rituals (like morning journaling or meditation) that help you regulate your emotions and connect with yourself.
• Remind yourself that you don’t have to be “fully healed” to be in a relationship; embrace growth as a continual, relational process.

Mentioned

Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication (free guide)

Connect with Dr. Molly Burrets

Website: drmollyburrets.com

Instagram: instagram.com/drmollyburrets

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Dr. Molly, thank you for joining us. 

Thanks for having me. 

Yeah, it sounds like you do so much to support people, educate people in the way of relationship, healthy relating. And one of the topics that you help people understand is the tendency towards attracting similar, maybe unhealthy, relational patterns. And before we get started on that particular topic, where would you like to start with people? People who are just getting to know you? How did relationship and emotional intelligence become of interest to you? 

Yeah. Well, I'm a clinical psychologist, and my practice is in LA. I'm a professor at the University of Southern California. And many clinical psychologists specialize in treating individuals. And it's kind of unusual and not the typical traditional path for a clinical psychologist to specialize in treating couples, which is like a big part of my caseload. And I like to say that the way that I got interested in this was that I come from a very big, very loving, and very chaotic family. And, academics have always been my strong suit. And so I think I used academics as a kind of way to understand the world and the family that I was living in and relating to. 

I kind of took my strength and applied it to the things that were more confusing or more difficult for me, and that's how I sort of became interested in relationships. And when I started graduate school almost 20 years ago, I already knew that I wanted to specialize in couples. So that's really what I've been doing ever since I started working with couples, before I ever even saw an individual in therapy. So huge passion of mine, and I've had a lot of tumultuous relationships myself throughout my life. That has also informed my interest. And I'm in a really healthy and loving marriage with someone whom I've been with for 17 years, now married for 10. But it was sort of a long road to get there. 

And I like to say that a lot of the lessons that I learned in love, I learned the hard way. I think people have this idea that couples therapists always have perfect relationships, and I think that the opposite is true. I think that we're drawn to this work because many of us struggle. And the work is about evolving ourselves and sort of growing ourselves up while we're also helping other people to do the same thing. 

Thank you for sharing. As a clinical psychologist, I also operate a lot as a relational coach. My dissertation was actually on couples' dynamics and some of the different relational models, and very much interested in how people practice something that cultivates a healthier partnership. When I didn't get a lot of that input myself, even though I had a master's in psychology. And so my own relational struggles were like, how come we don't know this? I know the field is grown with all the podcasts in various ways that we get information, but it's so important and just to be in a voice in the industry to help offer that guidance, not only from an academic perspective, but also just a real human lived experience and having walked the path. So thank you for sharing that. 

Great. 

Well, where would you like to start as far as the tendency for folks who might be attracted to similar unhealthy relational dynamics? Where would you like to start on that topic? 

Well, I'd like to start by telling people that you're just like everybody else. I really want to validate that, if you have had many relationships that start the same way, have similar struggles, end the same way, despite your efforts to choose differently, and you're finding that you're coming up against the same problems, then you're just like most people. I think that there is a lot of sort of inner critic that comes into all of this, and we shame ourselves about the mistakes that we make, especially when we seem to make them repeatedly, the sort of shame on you aspect of it. 

And I just really want to start by telling people, like, I see you, and you are not alone in trying to navigate a difficult situation where you keep having the same outcome despite your best efforts to change things. Right. And the reason why this happens is that 

Even when the familiar is painful, we often will choose something that is familiar to us, even if it's painful, because our fear of uncertainty trumps our fear of the known painful thing. Right? And when we go into relationships, as I'm sure you know, Dr. Jessica, like a lot of times, we are trying to solve a problem that is very old and started with our early primary caregivers. So for some people, that's a mother, for some people, that's a father. 

And oftentimes, a template is formed about what relationships should look like, what relationships do look like, what love feels like, and that template is formed. Now, that template is often very flawed, right? And so when we grow up, when we go out into the world seeking a relationship, we're not coming to the experience with a blank slate, to the experience with a template of what is familiar. And even though we sometimes consciously try to choose something that is different than what we knew growing up, oftentimes we find ourselves in a situation that feels very familiar. And I think what happens unconsciously is that we're trying to recreate this old, painful relationship and ultimately have a different outcome this time around. 

And usually, what ends up happening, not always, but often, what ends up happening is that we end up having the same outcome this time around. We get in this. Psychologists call it repetition compulsion. We get into this obsession with trying to have a different outcome, but bringing the same template to our new relationship and experiencing some of the same old familiar pain over and over again. 

I can hear people saying, I've done so much work. How come I'm still in the same place? So I can appreciate just what you're describing around how compelling. And also, it's so much a part of the way that we're functioning in this template. And you're saying even with conscious intention, we can still find ourselves in similar dynamics. That's right, yeah. Because a lot of these templates, as you said, were developed from a very early age in a particular environment, and we haven't had the experience of updating that or revising it. 

That's right. That's right. And the neural pathways that are formed between the ages of 0 and 5 are very foundational. I mean, our brain grows and changes more in those five years than it does in the total sum of the rest of our lives. So, from the ages of 6 to however old you live to be, whether it's 80 or 90 or 100, your brain is going to develop and grow more from the period of 0 to 5 than it will the rest of your life. So that's something called a critical window. There's a “critical window of brain development where we learn the lessons of love and attachment and connection to other people.” That is so foundational. And so I tell people that not to sort of make them feel helpless, like, oh, gosh, I'll never get out of this. 

But I really want to empower people to feel like, no, there's a very good reason you're struggling. And it's because your brain grew and developed a lot in that time, and really formed these habits that they're very difficult to unlearn. And there are ways to unlearn it, but it takes really intentional work. And so again, I come back to, if you are someone who's struggling in relationships and having the same experience over and over, it's not your fault. You know, you're in very good company. And it's because of the life experiences that you have and what you have learned along the way. 

Yes, I'm hearing you emphasize how powerful this operates in us. And Yes. I mean, as you're saying that it's not doomed. Right. That we're not totally fixed in this state. And at the same time, to have that updating or earn a more secure attachment or the neuroplasticity of having a different experience, this takes a lot of time and repetition to develop. If you look at it, as you're saying on a scale, the amount of neuropathways that get developed in that critical window versus the rest of your life, I mean, that's a lot to counteract. And at the same time, it is possible. 

That's right. Yes. I'm living proof. 

I am too. 

Yes. 

Yes. And so, you know, so we're talking about attachment in that early imprint, that template that you're talking about relationally. And then, as we grow, some people encounter layers of trauma or difficulty. Can you speak a little bit about how that might also interact with the attachment system? 

Yeah. So sometimes when we experience trauma, it confirms the fears that we already have, which makes them even more deeply embedded. And that's not to say that trauma is always a negative experience. And actually, let me clarify, “it's not that trauma is always going to have a critical negative outcome on your life. There is this very important concept of post-traumatic growth that I want people to be aware of.” Like, you absolutely can go through very traumatic things and become a stronger, wiser, more resilient person as a result. 

especially when you already have fears, uncertainties, and difficulties that have formed in your life, and then your trauma can confirm them. 

So you sort of double down on the things that are painful for you. And so it's an additional layer to have to work through. Even the people who are in the best of situations and are resilient and have strong, loving, supportive families, and they experience trauma, even all of that sort of safe foundation can be upended. So it really completely and totally makes sense to me that trauma can really throw you for a loop. Trauma can really incite all of your deepest fears. And also, it does not have to be a negative defining feature of your life. Just as if you had a difficult childhood from 0 to 5, it does not doom you to a life of problematic relationships. 

Going through trauma does not doom you to a life of difficulty, but it does mean that you're going to require extra care and intentional support. 

Yes, because oftentimes I look at trauma on a continuum. And that tends to be an overwhelming experience. And having difficulty being able to process or metabolize that, and having the intention. Intentionality and skilled support can assist in the ability to process, metabolize, and to integrate. So would you be willing to share a little bit more around some of the keys because you're talking about change is possible, but also if. I mean, one of the things that I think most people have encountered, but I think it's a useful thing to remember, is that insight alone often doesn't translate towards change. And a lot of us consume a lot of information and have a lot of insight. And yet the nervous system, the somatic, the attachment system, doesn't equate to change. 

“So, can you give some keys here around for people to work with, a bit of when they're looking at creating some change or looking at their lives and saying, I need to make a change, and what are some steps for them?” 

“Yeah, I see really healing, because that's really what we're talking about is healing. I really see it happening in two distinct but related buckets. One kind of healing is the healing that you do on your own, individually, or perhaps with a therapist.” Right. An adjunct who's supporting you through it, individual work. Another type of healing is what you do in a relationship. And one could even argue, actually, that healing with a therapist is a relationship and that. So you're healing relationally. Right. But I think people are mistaken when they think that, like, I have to be a totally healed version of myself in order to be in a healthy relationship. I really like to steer people away from that idea. 

While I really support people doing individual work, especially if they're single and even while in a relationship, doing individual work for healing is super important and very helpful. I think that relationships provide a really fertile ground for deep healing that, honestly, sometimes can only be found in a relationship with another person. We humans, are such a collectivist creature, you know what I mean? We need other people to survive. And, you know, hyper independence is a coping strategy that a lot of people develop when they have experienced trauma and when they have learned that you can't rely on other people, I have to do it all myself. Right? But by nature, we are a collectivist species, and we rely on others for real survival. 

So a relationship, whether it's with a friend, a romantic partner, or a parent, can be a model and opportunities for us to use the other person, kind of like a mirror. We can see ourselves. And this is, in fact, what happens in relationships when you're in a relationship. That is when you will have the most opportunities. Yes. Triggered. And to experience pain and then to see if you're able to show up to it in a different way. Are you going to do the same old things that you typically do? Blame, criticize, shut down, withdraw, lash out, get enraged, go drinking? You know, all these things that we do to cope with negative emotions. Are you going to do those things, or are you going to pause, notice what is happening in your body, and make a different, healthier choice? 

Okay, I'm going to express how I feel in a non-blaming, non-critical way. I'm going to say something like, you know, the fact that you have chosen to move far away really makes me feel abandoned. And I feel like it's a mixed message. You're telling me that you want to move forward in our relationship, but now, at this critical juncture, you've chosen to move an hour away. And I'm feeling like really abandoned. I'm struggling with the mixed message that's giving me. What can you tell me about this choice? You know, thinking in particular of someone I know who's going through this. So it's an easy example to come up with. And what that does is that it starts a more intimate, open conversation about, okay, I have these concerns financially. 

This is what's going on with my parents who I need to take care of. This is my plan for this period of time. And here's how I see us moving forward. Here's how I see us integrating our lives. It 

 to reassure you, and to plan together collaboratively. Consider the alternative, which is, for example, well, he moved an hour away, so he's obviously not that into me. I'm going to be passive-aggressive for several weeks and just say nasty things and let the conflict between us brew. He won't really know why I'm angry, and then I'll just create enough fights that it's going to blow up, and we're going to break up anyway, so I don't really have to deal with this. Right. That's another strategy. Right. 

But that doesn't get you the outcome that you're looking for in order to show up to this, these painful experiences in a new way. We have to be attuned to what's going on with our nervous system. We have to pause, and we have to make a different choice. Now then, that brings me back to the individual bucket, which is, how do you learn to do those things right? And I'm so glad that Gen Z is growing up in a different world than you and I did, you know, because people have so much more access now to psychoeducation about how to regulate your nervous system, about how to identify maladaptive beliefs, about how to meditate, about how to do breathing exercises to regulate your body. You know, there are so many strategies out there, and those don't even include hiring a professional to help you. 

When you open up that door, you add on all kinds of healing practices like somatic therapy, EDMR, massage, typical talk therapy, and CBT. The list goes on and on. 

Right. 

You know, I'm not going to be able to tell everyone here all the potential healing modalities, but I encourage you to get really curious about them. See 

You know, what do you have to lose? The worst that will happen is that it won't work for you. And then you can try something else. When you can bring those individual skills to the opportune moment, to a relationship that has the mirror up, and you can show up in a different way, that's when you really create a different life for yourself. 

Yes. You're speaking to such an important practice. Sorry. And when I'm hearing you describe relationships in general, so oftentimes intimate relationships, that's when we're going to get activated the most. It's going to have the most charge. It's what often feels like higher stakes, and so the threat system. And that we have these coping strategies. So when we haven't necessarily slowed down to look at how it is that I am engaging in an interaction where I am triggered, or I am behaving in certain ways because so many people will say, I didn't mean to say that, or you know, have regrettable words or regrettable actions. 

And so when they're in a calmer state, being able to look at those tendencies of those protective strategies, like you said, blaming or criticizing, and that if we have the ability to orient a bit, to pause and to look at the vulnerability that's underneath, you're saying we have a powerful opportunity to check out some of our interpretations or a perception about what's happening or, you know, I think it's, I don't know if it's Terry Real, but talks about the story that I'm telling myself or there's a way in which we can acknowledge here's the world that I'm living in right now and can you help me? I'm having a hard time. And what can be created from that dialogue is incredibly illuminating and gives an opportunity for connection and more intimacy. 

And this is often made possible, to your point, by having a bit more practice in some of these self-disciplines to regulate the nervous system to recognize. Okay, here's my previous tendency or strategy, and I know what comes from that. I've been around the block enough to know what that results in, and I want to try something new. But as you said, it can be terrifying. So to have the support of teachers, guides, books, therapists, coaches, and various others to help hold ground for some of this, we get to have practice. “I think we can practice with many people, as you said, with a therapist. Like that's experience that lives in us, and we have a felt experience, and we can access our resource, which, when it is maybe a little bit more charged with someone who's more intimately partnered with.” 

“Absolutely. Yep. You're speaking my language.” 

“And that, I mean, I imagine you would agree that when we have a different experience that will give us updated information, it's not gonna like throw everything out in the past, but we start to like trust a new path.” 

“Yeah, Step by step. Right. And I also want to remind people, like, you're not always going to get the outcome that you want. Yes.” 

“Can I just say it's not? If people think that the outcome is. It didn't work.” 

“Right.” 

“Can you say more?” 

“Yeah. So let me take this example, this hypothetical example. You know, if you go to your partner and you bring up your concerns and say you're feeling abandoned and you have moved an hour away and you know that feels like a mixed message compared to telling me that you're, you really love me and you're really into this relationship, that might set the opportunity for a conversation that you guys are on different pages in terms of long term commitment.” Right. I really do love you. I'm having a great time. I'm not thinking about us combining our lives. Like, I just, I'm having a great time, and I want to keep seeing you, but I'm not in a place in my life where I'm trying to like get married and change everything. Right. 

So if somebody has that experience and then they decide, well, this didn't work for me, I was vulnerable, and I didn't get the outcome that I wanted, I'm never going to do that again. Right. I really, I ask you to take a step back and think about how pain is an integral part of the human experience. 

But what you get from that conversation is clarity. Because you could spend the next two years of your life mysteriously trying to figure out why the actions and words don't line up and thinking something different is going to happen and waiting for a proposal or whatever it is you're doing, and then find out in two years, once you've been in distress and you're there going, why aren't you marrying me? Why aren't we engaged yet? You could do that. 

But this conversation gives you. 

Yes. 

Pain right now, but saves you from the suffering of uncertainty and not knowing and moving forward without clear intentionality, right? Yes. So this isn't always going to feel good. 

No. 

But it is always going to be for you. 

Yes. Because it's great information and in the service of a larger goal. “If the goal is to be partnered and in a more meaningful, significant way, like a marriage, having that information allows you to make a choice to be that much more intentional about that goal.” 

That's right.

Yes. That's right. 

“And if you're in a relationship with someone who doesn't want the same thing as you, it prevents you from getting what you really want.” 

Yes. You're occupied already with something else, fulfilled, 

And you're not feeling lonely. 

Yes. 

Ultimately will feel unfulfilled. 

Yes. And then for people who are in a relationship that has a particular dance and dynamic in existence, and they're trying to practice something new. Can you speak a little bit about that? That perhaps they're approaching a conflict with more of this vulnerability, checking out, perhaps fear. 

Yeah. 

And it maybe doesn't go great. Do you want to speak to that a little bit? Yeah. 

I always tell people, give your partner a totally transparent heads up that you're trying to change and you're trying to do something different. 

Yes. 

And you could come right to the table, and you could say, I know we've never had a conversation like this before. Typically, I would. I know that I would just come to you and I would be passive-aggressive, or maybe I would just be critical and blame you. But I'm going to try to do something different here. And it's really scary for me. So here I am, I'm taking a deep breath, and I'm just going to say it this way when you move away. So I really encourage people to just give their partner a heads up that something is going to change, and you're going to try something new. Because when you do that, it does two things. One is that it helps people to be less sort of blindsided. Like, who is this person? 

I'm dealing with what's going on here, you know, where it is. Where is my wife? And you know, what have you done with her? Right. But the other thing it does is when you tell someone that you're doing something scary with the right people, it just automatically puts them in the role as your ally. And I know the listeners are going to feel this, like when someone tells you, I'm really nervous to say this, but you automatically show up as a more empathic version of yourself. It reduces defensiveness because that person is telling you they're being vulnerable. And it's just human nature to want to meet them where they are, you know? Now, if you're in a relationship with someone who uses that opportunity and weaponizes it against you, that's also really important information, very disappointing information. 

And

Now, it's a different thing if someone makes a mistake, right? If they don't quite meet the mark, they don't quite show up how you needed them to. It's like, okay, you can try that again, you know. But there's a difference between sort of missing the mark and making a mistake or needing another shot at it, and weaponizing your vulnerability against you. And I think people will know what I mean by that, especially if they've been in a relationship with someone who does that kind of thing. But if you're around the right people, when you make yourself vulnerable, and you prepare them for it, people want to meet you where you are. 

Absolutely. I agree and think it's incredibly disarming. And I would say in earlier stages in a relationship or where there's not a real disconnect or pattern that's painful, that hasn't been developed, I think it's much easier to access that. And if it's several years in, I've had where sessions. I'm sure you've had something similar where one gets vulnerable, and the other is like, this is great, but I don't trust it. This doesn't happen outside of the session. And so it's like part of them wants to really receive it, but then they're also a little like, this is so different. I don't know how this. 

I don't know what to do with this. And I definitely don't trust it. 

Yeah. So typically, this takes some time to establish a new pattern, really get some practice with it. But there's, to your point, it's not just totally weaponized. There's like, oh, this feels really great. And like, I don't know how to receive this, or I don't know how to trust this. Yeah, Okay. Well, one of the things that you also help people with is finding their voice and being able to bring up a need or raise their hand about something. And in this example, right. The person I'm imagining wants to feel more presence, more connection, and wants to develop a deeper level of relationship. 

And it doesn't have to be this example, but how do you help people who might be negotiating fears of being too much, or this is going to rock the boat, and I'm going to push somebody away, or the fears that might come up around raising a need or having a voice around something challenging? 

Well, for the most part, if you are going to be too much for someone and they are not able to meet your needs or let there be space for their needs, your needs, that's very important information to have because I can promise you that there are people out there that you will not be too much for, that will be open to meeting your needs. Now do a quick check-in. Are these needs reasonable? Right. And that can be a difficult question to answer

You're kind of your barometer is off, and it's like you can really convince yourself, like, oh, this is too much. I shouldn't ask for this. 

So it can be a hard question to ask and to answer. Ask people that you love and that know you, and test it out with people. Hey, you know, I have been thinking that, you know, I'm really feeling like we're spending too much, and I'm concerned for us financially. I'm thinking about asking Jane if we can cut expenses here or there, but I don't. I don't know. She makes so much more money than me. Do I have a right to even have a say about this? Right. Get perspectives from different people. Hopefully, good friends will say to you're in a partnership. This is a marriage. Like, both people matter. Even if one person makes more than the other, you both should be contributing. And at the very least, you need to be talking about it. 

If there are financial concerns and you're worried, a collaborative discussion is right. Hopefully, you're going to have people who can see it clearly. But, it really would not be unusual if you were raised in an environment where something else was modeled for you to say, I don't make the money. I'm not the one who should be making these decisions. I just need to forget about it. I'm sure that they've got it all figured out and everything's going to be fine. I don't want to rock the boat. I'm not going to raise it right. So it's about trying to arrive at an experience where you're fairly confident that your need is reasonable and then sitting with the right relationship that will allow me to have and express needs. Now, that does not mean your needs will always be met. Okay. 

So I'm not going to sit here and tell people that in the right relationship, your partner will meet your needs. That's not real life. No, no. You want to be in a relationship where more or less the things that you value the most and the things that you need the most, those needs are met. 

And I hope that this is very freeing to people because it also frees you from the expectation that you should be able to meet somebody else's needs. 

Totally. 

Goodness knows, I can't do that for anyone. Right. So we have to be reasonable with ourselves about what's enough. And I am not proposing that anybody settle for less than they truly need. But I'm asking you to evaluate for yourself what's most important to me. Am I getting what's most important to me in this relationship? And can I live with the ways that my needs are not met? 

Dr. Molly, I really appreciate what you're saying. Just as some are organizing this a bit for people. And also I don't know if you would agree, the practice of querying is this reasonable, I think can provide a bit of opportunity to stand in it a little bit more as an individual of like, yes, I can actually speak into this or I can own this a little bit more, or I can just acknowledge it and speak from it like that in of itself. Regardless of what the partner might respond with, the practice of saying this is important. I do want to have clarity. I do want to be on the same page or feel a little bit more in the know about our financial security, path, or plan. And that can for. For the individual to speak, that can actually have a huge, powerful effect. 

Yeah. And I think it's. It's hard when we're learning how to advocate for ourselves and when we're learning how to express ourselves. I think we can vacillate between two extremes. One extreme being  I don't speak up for myself. I push it down. I just don't rock the boat. I don't say anything. And then that can really sort of swing to the other side, which is, you're spending too much money. Look at our bank account. I bust my ass to make money, and you just go out and spend whatever you want. Right. When we don't have healthy boundaries. Right. We can vacillate from one extreme to the next. And by the way, both of those have about an equally dismal likelihood of getting your needs met. 

Totally. 

You know, nobody is going to come to that rageful conversation and say you're right. Now that you've called me on it, I do realize I'm spending. It's like, no, that's just not the way it happens. Right. 

And nobody's going to kind of play hide and seek with you and like, really try to. I mean, there might be some signals that people might try to kind of query, but for the most part, people don't. If they don't know. 

That's right. They can't read your mind. 

Yes, well, and the other thing that I appreciate about what you're describing is that, did I forget it? I'm going to forget it. 

This is where a nice, good edit comes in. 

I know,  I was like, oh, yeah, this is important. I'll remember. Well, as you're talking about this vacillating, sometimes we. If we're in a place of not speaking up, the relationship can start to form towards the other person's preferences, and then resentment, as you said, could start to come up. Or we feel the building of the unmet needs, and we kind of get to this threshold of like, we're protesting. And it's difficult, as you said, for the partner to really decode that or understand what that actually means. The other thing I was going to say is when I'll speak for myself. When I am clear and can validate that my need makes sense, and it's reasonable, and I can speak it. I also have a bit more opportunity around how I might be able to show up for that need myself. 

If my partner is usually open to being collaborative, but I don't want him to feel totally responsible. But there might be things that I can get curious about, like how am I participating in the thing that I'm not enjoying? Is there. Are there things I can do to help with that? You're nodding. 

Oh, yeah. Because I know this. I know this so well from my experience. It's like my life changed dramatically when I realized I always. I always thought that resentment was about anger. 

Resentment is about somebody else having something that you want, and then, of course, you feel angry at them for having it. Right. But we skip the envy part. And envy is such an important experience because it points us in the direction of where to go to meet our needs, you know? Yes. I just remember negotiating the division of labor around having two little kids with my husband and feeling so resentful that he had this just sense of ease and, like, he could go to the. Take a shower anytime he wanted. He didn't have to ask permission to go take a shower. He could schedule nights out with his friends, like, no problem, you know? And I just remember feeling so resentful, like, I don't have any time to myself. I have to schedule a shower. 

I can't go out with my friends, you know? And then it was like sitting in that resentment, focusing on just anger at him got me absolutely nowhere. 

Yes. 

Realizing that my resentment was about what I wanted for myself was like clicking the ruby heels three times. It's like, oh, my God, you had it in you all along. I don't have to ask permission to take a shower. I'm not in that kind of marriage. This was self-imposed. I could just say, hey, I'm going to take a shower. I could make time to go out with my girlfriends. This was self-imposed. I was just putting these standards on myself and telling myself these stories that weren't true or about my role and what was needed from me and what would happen if I stepped away. So, like, “learning that resentment was about anger was about envy just allowed me.” It just pointed the arrow in the direction of what I actually wanted for my life. 

And I could let go of the anger at him for not giving me the thing that I really needed. And that was, like, transformative to our. 

Marriage, I bet, because not so much your case, but it. I could feel myself or someone else, in your case, that might easily want to criticize, you're not doing enough, or, you know, the things that he's not doing or she's not doing. And even if the person were to do the things, it still wouldn't necessarily give them what they need. Right. So, to really, like, okay, if I'm harping on the other person, what would that allow me to feel? Is it that I'm feeling more relaxed, or can I take a shower, or can I go see friends? Like, that's a much more direct path to getting what one needs. And I so appreciate you sharing. 

Well, and it's exactly what you said, what can I do for myself to meet this need? Because we have to let go. At least I know I did. I had to let go of this idea that somebody was coming to save me and that somebody was going to be my husband. He was going to save me from the difficulty of life if only he would do this and this and this. And he wasn't doing it. And so I was resentful. But when I realized that, like, no one's coming to save me, only me, it can only be me, what it did was it freed me up to actually get my needs met. And then I could have a relationship with my husband where, instead of being resentful and angry toward him about what he wasn't doing for me, those needs were really fulfilled. 

And it freed me up to just kind of want him and need him so much, but just like, want him. And it's, you know, it's not that he doesn't show up for me or doesn't do anything. It's just that because I was in such a place of neglecting myself, I was blaming him for it. And when I took care of myself, it freed me to be able to see him as the incredible partner that he is, but not someone who's responsible for my well-being. Right. 

That's a huge distinction. “I think sometimes in a relationship we can get confused that, like, they're the only source to get that need met because we're in a relationship, it's a relational need.”So we almost think that's the only source. And you're really giving a clear example of that. No, we have. And you started with, we have the individual work, and we have the relational work, and they're both important, and they support each other. But this dependency or reliance or responsibility, like, it doesn't have to be that way. I think secure, you know, a lot of the psychoeducation around secure attachment and EFT, I think it got a little bit of a bad rap for like, oh, it means your partner's gonna respond to you and do all the things you want them to do. But it's not that. No, it's kind of what you're describing. 

It's beautiful. Okay, well, I know we're winding down, and you do a lot also, just one last question or topic here. What you might want to say about emotional intelligence and how that fits into what you're describing. Because the healthy, relating, and you're talking about the individual work, and this is something you focus on. How would you? Is there anything you want to say about emotional intelligence, how this fits in? 

Just want to say that I wish so much that, like math, like science, like reading, there was a class that we took from the time that we were kindergarteners all the way through undergrad that focused on life's most important skill, which is emotion regulation and emotional intelligence. I don't know about you, but I am not often calculating the area of a parallelogram or the volume of a cylinder. But every day of my life, I am attending to my feelings and other people's feelings. My kids, my husband's, my clients, my barista, you know, and nobody taught me how to do that. I had to teach myself. And I just really wish that we had a more streamlined approach. I, I wish you didn't have to pay $250 a session to go to a therapist. I wish that this were part of our educational system. 

People blame parents. Well, you're supposed to learn that from your parents. Well, who taught your parents precisely? You know what I mean? My parents didn't learn this. How are they going to teach it to me? You know, and we've got to start somewhere. And I just really, that would be my hope, is that there was. There would be a way that 

to support people in this way. And I think we need it more than ever, 100%. 

I mean, as we look at leaders in businesses and systems and families, it is pervasive in this more systemic way. Is there one thing that you would encourage listeners to take a step toward more emotional intelligence? That's a big question, I realize. 

Well, you know what a big thing that I've been doing lately, I don't think it's the number one thing, but it just, it comes to me because I've been really into it lately. I decided that I was going to make a change in my life and go to bed earlier and wake up earlier, before my kids wake up. This was really hard for me because I'm not a morning person and I always experience nighttime. That's my downtime, right? And I didn't want to give it up by going to bed earlier. But what I started realizing was that, oh, but wait, by the time it's nine o'clock and my day's over and everyone's in bed and lunches are packed. All I have left for myself is scrolling through reality TV, and all those are. 

Although those are really enjoyable to me, very enjoyable, they're not life-giving. And so I switched things up, and I started waking up early so that my me time is the first thing of the day. And I think I love the metaphor of it. I love that I come first. That first hour of the day is mine, and nothing's going to get in the way of it, you know, or very little. Like something very strange would have to happen to encroach upon that hour because everybody else in the house is sleeping, businesses are closed, you know, and I wake up early, and I have an hour to myself. Now, what do you do with that hour? For me, I've been really into journaling, and I just get all of my feelings down on paper. 

All of the things that I'm thinking about, I have a place to release them all. But you can exercise, you can meditate, you can just drink your coffee in silence. I just think it is so important, especially for women who have so much on our plates, we are carrying so much that we prioritize the care of ourselves and think about what we are doing to take care of ourselves. Is it really life-giving, or are you just getting by? For me, I was just getting by for a long time and things really shifted for me when I changed this practice. 

Thank you for sharing that, so powerful. I feel like there's so much to be said about that. One of the things I do in the morning is go to yoga. But there was a phase where I wasn't going to yoga, and I had gone to a class, and it had been many, however many weeks, and I got on the mat, and I was like, oh, hi. Like I was greeting myself for like I hadn't actually connected in a while, and that was a different phase in my life. But I was. It's so important to have this connection with oneself; however, that's enriching. So thank you. Well, Dr. Molly, what would you like to say about people who want to get in touch with you, what you're offering, and how? Yeah. Your work in the world. 

Yeah. I'm a clinical psychologist. I see people who are residents of the state of California. My website is drmollyburrets.com. I'm sure that'll be in the show notes. But it can be hard to find me that way because I have a lot of demand for my practice. So my teachings are available. I do a lot of work on Instagram. The handle is Dr. Molly Burrets, and I'm especially excited for people to follow me there because then they will find out about the launch of my podcast, which I'm currently recording, is in development, and is going to come out really soon. So if you follow me there, you'll get all the announcements. 

Yay. That's exciting. And are you privy to say the name of your podcast yet? 

Yeah, yeah. It's trademarked and everything. The name of the fraud. The podcast is called Kissing Frogs, and it's about failed relationships and what we have learned from them. 

Beautiful. As a friend of mine would say, mining the gold of those relationships. It's priceless. 

Yeah. Every episode, I have a different guest. Come on. A guest of influence. Someone you'll probably be interested in hearing their story and talking with them about a failed relationship in their life, and how their life is different because of it. 

Juicy. Wonderful. I'll make sure to have the link to your website and those in California. It sounds like you have a very full schedule, but for those who want to reach out to you or follow your teachings and your upcoming podcast launch on Instagram, I'll make sure to have the links on today's show. Notes. 

Thank you. This was a really nice conversation. Very soul-giving though. So thank you. 

Likewise. Thank you so much for sharing your time with us.