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Ever found yourself stuck in an argument, desperately clinging to being “right,” only to realize it’s pushing you further from the person you love? So many of us fall into this silent trap—believing that our idea of respect, kindness, or connection is universal, only to watch as those assumptions breed tension, misunderstanding, and emotional distance in our relationships.

In this episode, listeners are invited to challenge these rigid notions of right and wrong that quietly erode intimacy. By exploring the difference between complaints and vulnerable requests, unpacking the dangers of labeling and moral certainty, and learning practical approaches for negotiating needs, the conversation uncovers what it really takes to foster lasting understanding and resilient connection. Get ready to rethink the very foundations of how you communicate and repair with the people who matter most.

Anna Sterk is a senior RLT therapist and a member of the RLI Faculty. Her clinical career has been focused on systems and relationships from the beginning. She began training in Relational Life Therapy in earnest in 2012, became a certified Relational Life Bootcamp Facilitator in 2020, and joined the Faculty of the Relational Life Institute in 2022. This role has allowed her to teach other therapists and coaches while continuing to spread the RLT message of relationality.

Episode Highlights

04:01 Exploring subjectivity in relationship concepts.

07:57 The pitfalls of morality, rightness, and labeling in intimacy.

12:27 Vulnerability in requests versus complaints.

14:44 Getting specific: Turning desires into clear requests.

17:51 Curiosity, listening, and creating shared understanding.

22:05 Personal stories: Differing definitions of connection and cherishing.

24:05 Navigating disconnection: The role of pain and realistic expectations.

28:36 The one-up/one-down dynamic and its impact on relationships.

31:11 Cultivating accountability, ownership, and accepting limitations.

34:08 Relational grieving as a pathway to joy and acceptance.

37:42 Moving beyond othering and embracing interconnectedness.

41:36 Developing relationship skills and accessing support resources.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

• Take time to specifically identify what you genuinely want from your partner, rather than settling for broad complaints or vague wishes.
• Shift from criticizing to making a clear, vulnerable request, even if it feels risky to do so.
• Openly discuss with your partner what concepts like “respect,” “closeness,” or “connection” mean to each of you to uncover differences in expectations.
• Actively listen to your partner with curiosity, aiming to understand their unique perspective instead of preparing your rebuttal.
• Recognize that pain, misunderstanding, and moments of discord are a normal part of relationships and do not always signal that something is wrong.
• Release the urge to insist on having the right answer or moral high ground, allowing for both perspectives to coexist.
• Grieve the reality that you may not get everything you want from your partner, and focus on appreciating what you do receive.
• Show curiosity toward your partner’s reality and model personal responsibility by expressing your needs without blaming or shaming.

Mentioned

Relational Life Institute

Therapist/Practitioner Finder

Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication (free guide)

Connect with Anna Sterk

Websites: annasterk.com | relationship-work.com

Instagram: instagram.com/relationalmft

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Episode Transcript

Anna, thank you for joining us today. I'm excited about our time together. We've already had such a great time chatting, and I know that we've had a previous conversation. I really appreciate all that you have to offer. So thank you. 

Absolutely. I'm just thrilled to be here with you today, talking, and really honored that you invited me to come speak with you and, by extension, your audience. 

Yes. Wonderful. Well, as a starting place, one of the things that we've talked about, and you've really just even started going into a moment ago, around how maybe consciously or unconsciously, we in a relationship are operating on some level. “Maybe ideals that might have some rigidity to them if we haven't examined them. And one of the things that perhaps you prompt is just even looking at that and perhaps even challenging some. Some of those ideals. Would you say a little more here?” 

“Absolutely. I'm fond of saying that one of the greatest fallacies, mistruths that we operate with in relationships is that when we say something, the other person pretty much understands that we meant it the way that they heard it. And that leads to so much discord. Because there are many, many concepts. Most concepts that are in a relationship actually have a lot of subjectivity to them.” And so when we get into the idea that there is a certainty or a rightness or rigidity around a concept, like one of the ones that I often hear from my clients, it is something like respect. Right. Like that, people think respect means the same thing, but respect doesn't mean the same thing to everyone. What is respectful communication? What is kind communication? What does it mean to listen, and what does it mean to be accountable? 

And then when our partners or the people we love don't uphold that, what we think of as the standard of the concept, it tends to lead to a lot of discord. 

And it sounds like this idea of right and wrong, or even morality, gets layered on top of. Even though we might be operating with totally different associations or meaning-making. 

Absolutely. I think that's where a lot of the certainty is driven, the idea that, like any good person would. Any good person would understand what it means to be respectful. Any good person would understand what it means to be kind. And that there's a consistency of meaning around that, and there's just not. I think that it's important to acknowledge that when I'm saying that, sometimes people want to take things that are said and kind of extend them to almost a theatrical degree. Right. Like, within gay marriage, it was like, well, should you be able to marry anything? Right? Like, there's this extension that gets really extreme. And so, I mean, I want to be clear that there is a spectrum, that of kindness, for example, or there's a spectrum of respect. 

There's a spectrum of listening there. You can't talk over somebody and say, ” Well, I was listening, right? Like that. We would all agree that there are certain fundamental pieces, but the specifics of how these concepts look or how a relational idea looks is really unique to each person. So I don't know that example is the best, but it's the idea that it is. A lot of the concepts exist on a spectrum. And when I'm saying, you know, that negotiating. When I say to my clients that, like, negotiating respect or listening or connection or love, that there's some negotiation involved, sometimes they want to take that to an extreme, and they're like, so are you saying that I could just blah, blah, and that my partner is going to have to be okay with it? It's like, no, that's defeating the spirit of developing understanding. 

But I think people will get into a place of, like, exaggerating or illustrating in more ways because of the emotional threat underneath, or perhaps even just the difficulty of having communication around this. Like, it just. People get a little offended or hurt, you know, that's so activating. And so when I'm hearing you describe, when we get into this morality, I feel like it gets into the intellect, and we're maybe even bypassing some of the more vulnerable feelings. We. One of the other things I was thinking as you were talking about Anna was like, sometimes I'll hear clients say, ” Oh, if you ask anyone, or, like, leveraging, like, I just did a survey. And even if that was true, it still doesn't. Maybe it's not so relevant to that, to this specific relationship. 

So it's really irrelevant if we're looking at how the two of you are negotiating. So I think that it's kind of. I mean, this hooks into power, Right? I know you talk about power, and then even with the language that you said, it was like, I felt like, shame or blame. And so it really sets us in a kind of othering model. Yeah. Do you want to say more? 

Absolutely. I mean, so you know that I come from a. My foundational work is based on Relational Life Therapy, which is Terry Real's model faculty with the Relational Life Institute. So I teach and train therapists and Coaches in the model as well. That's the model I'm working from. “And one of the concepts that we have in relational life therapy is the idea of a losing strategy.” And one of the losing strategies is being right.

One of the things that happens is we tend to pull in sort of, we try to solve problems using the scientific method. So we're like anybody any good person would agree with. You know, I was talking to my uncle Bob the other day, and he said that, you know, respect looks like, blah, blah. So obviously. 

And there it's like, there's a rightness to it. 

Or, I read this article and the research found.

Oh, my gosh, this is such a thing. But as a side note, one of the things that I love is the amount of sort of psychological awareness and relational awareness that's developed with TikTok culture and Instagram. And, you know, there's a lot of awareness. The arc side of that is that there are complicated concepts that people tend to throw around with each other. 

And reduced to a very simple thing that doesn't have context. 

Absolutely. And so, clients will come in and be like, well, my partner's a narcissist. And I'm like, is that a clinical diagnosis? Do they carry that label? Or have you decided that they're a narcissist? And if so, why? And is that actually helpful, a helpful label to have put on your partner, or does that reduce them to something that's? Now they're just in the position of, like, having to defeat the concept of being a narcissist versus being able to have a dialogue about what is hard for you in the relationship, which. Totally valid. 

And that's a different focus. 

Absolutely. But once you've labeled it and narrowed it down, then it's like, well, you have to treat their narcissism well. But what if I didn't clinically diagnose them as a narcissist? What if they're just kind of being jerks in the relationship? Fair enough. Like, to address that, but that certainty about a label for it, and taking really big ideas and reducing them without any politics. 

How do you help people shift out of this? Because one of the other things that I get from our RLT with Terry Real is this one-upping one-down. I know that's not his language per se. I know he uses it. 

Yes. 

It is originating this sense of, again, power over one winner. How do you help people? Because it feels like vulnerability, as you said, if this person has a complaint about their partner and their narcissistic tendencies, usually it's like, well, I want to feel considered, or I want to feel seen, or I want to be responded to. My vulnerable part. 

Yeah, absolutely.

That's one of the things that we forget about, that there's actually no vulnerability in complaint. There is vulnerability in the request, because regardless of how your partner responds, whether they respond by giving you what you've asked for or some version of it, or trying or not, there is vulnerability in either receiving it or not having your partner be willing to meet you there. So there's vulnerability in requests, and there's vulnerability in receiving what you've asked for. So we tend to bypass that vulnerability and go into rightness about how our partner should be showing up for us. I don't want to have to ask. 

They should. 

Because they should know, as any good partner should, is one of those ideas that I think is really out there and really actually part of what we're consuming in unrelational ways every day. I saw something a while ago about beige flags. And, your audience may have known more about this than I do, but I was like, holy cow. The last thing we need is beige flags. Because the reality is humans are humaning all the time. We're quirky, we're unique. We all have different perspectives on the world. We all have different backgrounds we're coming from, and it's in that variety that we find interest and connection, and like, it's what drives us. 

But when we then get into a moment of conflict, and that vulnerability where we're afraid of being misunderstood or not seen or not held with warmth arises, we push back against that with certainty and rightness about how it should be. 

How do you help people access more of this? Either shifting the focus for themselves and their awareness around what their strategy is. And also, it sounds like there's an element of ownership here. Personal responsibility. 

Absolutely. There's a big piece of that. It has to do with really getting clear on what the request is. That's what I end up working with people on in lots and lots of ways: what is it that you actually really want? In the model that I work from in RLT, we start with what we call the miracle question. What is it that you want from this? What do you want from therapy or coaching? What do you want from your partner? What is it that you're looking for? How would you know? 

And we get really specific about that because ultimately that's what I'm going to come back to with people is, listen, you said that you want this, and I'm reflecting to you that if you want closeness with your partner, for example, which is a pretty broad, again, talk about like a term that would have a lot of subjectivity to it. I want to be close to my partner. What does that mean? What does it mean to be close to your partner, specifically for you? That's part of it, that when I'm working with people, I'm digging down into the specifics of the concept, not staying at that broad level, but asking them to get really granular about what they mean when I say that. 

And you're modeling if I can add what it looks like to be curious and kind of understand, rather than assuming I know what you mean by closeness or connection. 

You're nailing it. Like, that's exactly it, Jessica. Is that a lot of times couples come to therapy or coaching, and they're looking for skills, again, like a broad term. And in the work that I do in the first part of it, I'm not intervening; I'm not offering explicitly. I'm not going to teach any skills until I think that there's a part of the person I can teach them to, which we call in RLT, the wise adult of the person. And I'm not like, the problem is that there are a lot of times that we can pick up a book, as you said. I've read this article, I've seen this, I've listened to this podcast, and I've seen this interview. And so I now know, like, how to do this thing. 

But it's really that scared part of us, or protective part of us, or defensive part of us that is like, okay, I'm rigidly holding onto this idea now again, coming back to this idea of being right. I've got the corner of the market on the truth. Gonna do that. 

“Wow, that's a, What did you say? Strategy.” 

“A losing strategy.” 

“A losing strategy, yeah. That the motivation or the intent is protection. Like, there's a part of it.” 

“Absolutely. Okay, yeah. The motivation and intent are always to use any of the losing strategies. People don't think that they're doing something wrong. They think they're trying to be helpful and protective of themselves or even protective of the relationship. And so we go about these things, but really it's. It's just avoidance of pain, and that doesn't work.” So what, people come in, and they're looking for skills, and I don't. I sort of hold a line about that. We. And we do in RLT, we hold a line about that. But the reason why is because I am actually implicitly teaching skills all of the time in how I'm responding to my clients, in how I am listening to them. I'm modeling what it would look like from my perspective and what I hear from my clients about what it means to be a good listener. 

And that's a concept that we have as well, which is listening to understand. Not listening to rebut or respond, but listening to understand another person's perspective, which is not what most of us learn to do. 

No. And it sounds like you're holding a light around when you're asking the question, what is it that you're looking for? And the specificity of that, and continuing to hold that. And when I ask the question around vulnerability, it sounds like you might at times reflect that back around. I heard you say this, and I'm seeing this. Like, how does this fit? So it's like continuing to hold awareness because sometimes in these dynamics, we get flooded or activated, and we kind of lose sight. Tell me, is that what you mean? 

Yeah, absolutely. Because we make sense to ourselves, right? Like that, coming back to where we started, which is these subjective ideas, we make sense to ourselves. We're like. It's obvious, right? You know, and the reality is that what each of us experiences or means, there's a concept that we call cherishing. What does it mean to

And the reality is, when we say cherish, there are probably ideas that have already popped into your mind. Right. Do you have thoughts about, like, when I say cherish, what? What pops up for you? 

So I was listening with you, and I wasn't thinking about my own. 

Yeah. It's just really. 

But so let me pause. So when I think of cherish, I feel a lot of warmth in my body. I feel a regard, a reverence. I do feel like that care, that respect. I feel like I want to treat it with the utmost care. 

Yeah, absolutely. Right. So you have a really clear idea about what cherishing means for you. A story I tell my clients and students is about a time when my partner and I, during the pandemic, we. We're doing a lot of yoga together. You know, we're like, this is like a thing we can do. It's online. We can do this thing. And so we were doing yoga, and I was lying in Shavasana. And I was thinking to myself, you know, I'd really like to connect with my partner tonight. And so we got done with yoga, and were rolling up our mats, and he turned to me, and he kissed me, and he said, thanks for doing yoga with me. And I said, thank you for doing yoga with me. And, you know, a little later on tonight, I'd love to just connect. 

And he just stopped, and his jaw dropped open, and he was like, connect. What could be more connecting than yoga? And I'm thinking, like, excuse me, Yoga's not connecting. Yoga is my own practice. Four corners of my yoga mat, man. Like, this is what I'm doing. I'm. I'm doing, like, I'm in my self here. And it was this, aha, light bulb moment about how differently I think of connection and cherishing than he does. Now, we both want and need a connection. We both want and need to be cherished in our relationship. But how that looks is really different between the two of us. I'm thinking, like, we're going to cuddle on the couch, maybe talk about our feelings or whatevs, you know, but we're going to talk. We're going to. It's going to be. There's going to be an exchange. 

And for him, he was, like, just being present in this shared physical activity, you know, side by side, is really connecting. So. And he feels really cherished by that. I don't have to agree that it should be cherishing for me, but I can have a lot more respect and appreciation for my partner if I realize that it is for him that, though this is where it becomes important, it does not cancel out what I experience as connection or cherishing. And my ability to advocate for that without saying that his version is good, bad, right, or wrong is. Is the stuff of intimacy. I have an idea that is about me, and that I don't have to give up. And even if it's different than what you think, you don't have to give it up. We can meet each other's preferences. 

That's so important. I'm so grateful that you laid that out and just emphasize that last piece because I can appreciate in your story how if somebody is like, what that was like, the best, it could feel for some, like, ooh, right, like, yes, he's not interested in that, or I might collapse on my own or, you know, and obviously people are going to have her buck back and get defensive and like have this back and forth. 

Yes. 

And for you to just say, well, wow, I can really. I don't know that I fully grasp how much this meant to you, and really attune to that and value that and hold ground and to the self responsibility, to the advocating and clearly requesting to still be in a place that. That you can hold that as well. 

Yes. And just to be transparent. It wasn't that fast. No. Like this is the reality of what it means to be in a relationship. That it was. It took me a minute because when he first said what could be more connecting than yoga? It was like somebody had said something to me in a language that I don't speak. I did not have any idea what the hell he was talking about. I was like, what? 

Right. 

You know, it took me a minute. So that. That's the other part of relationships that I think we can sometimes expect that our partner won't have any kind of glitch in their response to us, or that we're going to be understood right away, or that we should all just kind of like that there shouldn't be any discord or a moment of disconnection. And there is going to be. It's in that moment when he said, ” What could be more connecting than yoga? And I'm like, what are you talking about? I feel connected to myself in yoga. I like that you're in the room with me. But that's not a moment of connection necessarily. I can reframe it that way now. But at the time, in that moment, we're disconnected. And that isn't bad. It's just real. 

And a lot of times when couples are coming to see me, it's like they're trying to get away from ever experiencing that moment. And I think that 

Yes. 

We're not gonna avoid that moment of pain. We spend a lot of time, a lot of part of our lives, a big portion, trying to avoid those moments of pain. And that just creates suffering because we. It's not gonna work. And we tend to move on from a relationship because we're like, whoa. But we have these moments of disconnection. And I'm divorced, so I wanna be really clear. I'm not saying that every relationship should be stayed in. That's not what I'm saying. I just think that we have unrealistic expectations of relationships and of our partners. In a good relationship, we're not going to experience any disconnection or pain. And that's just not how it goes. 

And I would wonder too, the idea of right and wrong, that there's a labeling that disconnects as wrong, when really it could be a potential doorway for something new to occur, and a new understanding, and a new learning, and new negotiating. 

Absolutely. We can't have a repair without disconnection. Right. Like, 

They've been tested, they've done, they've been tested, they've overcome. 

Exactly. Resilience is built by actually having to go through a thing and recover from it. And that's like what happens when you're trying to avoid ever having that discord: you become fragile. Terry Real. My mentor says 

which I just love. Because, like, that's right. When you're. When we're trying to treat something like it's super fragile, then it does actually become that way because it's like we become more and more afraid that anything could upset it. Which is why having. Accepting that pain and discord can happen. It is a normal part of a relationship, and the goal isn't to have it, but the goal is to work through it differently. Really changes how resilient we feel in our relationships. 

“The strength and the intimacy have been more earned through working together. That there's a real trust and a felt sense of having one another's back.” That it's not because we've confined things to somehow have these agreements that are restrictive, but more like, we can learn how to be in uncertainty or discord. 

Absolutely. 

Learn. 

Yeah. And the thing is that that's where that defensive part of us will often show up. Because when we're in that moment of discord, when we're in that moment of, like, shakiness, when we're unsure, I mean, how much better does it feel to just claim rightness? Yeah, right. If we can come to a certainty that I'm right. It's really interesting, as somebody who is recovering from primarily being one down, I can be certain that I'm wrong and that feels safer in my body than being like, I have an opinion or a preference, and I don't know if it's going to match yours. I'd rather be sure that I'm doing it wrong than to own that I may have done it in a way that's Right for me, but didn't work very well for you. And that both things are true. That is so much. 

I mean, as I say it right now, it feels like, yeah, of course, obviously, that feels so much better. But in the moment, it feels vulnerable, and it feels shaky. 

I feel the tenderness. I want to get a little climb. Just thinking about the courage that it takes, and also the visibility to the opportunity of perhaps more intimacy. But what a risk. And that the certainty doesn't always look like rightness around one-upping. 

Yeah, absolutely. The certainty is also the certainty of one down. Right. Whether you go one up or one down in a moment of distress, one is not better than the other. And going one up is not always in response to having been one down. Like, we can be socialized to just be like, no, you're right. Right from the world, from our family of origin, from our privilege. And when that happens, it's not being driven by feeling bad and then going one up; it's being driven by being empowered to be one up. And that is not being checked. 

Yeah. 

So. But it is not necessarily worse or more destructive to a relationship than one down. Because the further you go away from a grounded center, the more self-preoccupation we have, so really far on the one up side. Lots of self-preoccupation. The same thing is true about shame. The further we go into one down, the more self-occupied we are. Which means that when, if I'm like fully in like, man, I sure screwed that up. If my partner says to me, ” It's not that big of a deal, let's just have a nice night together, let's hang out, whatever. Am I going to be able to do that? No, because I'm just really thinking about why I say anything. It never works like, exactly all that stuff like, or I might just sit there like I'm sad, you know, and that's not connecting either. 

And that a partner making an effort towards somebody who's in a one-down position and having their efforts, that warmth to be rejected is not any better for the relationship than a partner making overtures towards somebody in a one-up or better than. That's what we mean by one-up. By the way, it's just the idea that you're looking down your nose at another person in judgment of another person, in contempt of another person. When a partner is appealing to a one-up person and saying, ” Hey, I don't want to fight, let's, it's fine. You have an opinion. I can agree to disagree. 

I agree. 

You know, and the person's like, no, that's destructive to a relationship, but so is it. To reject a partner's attempts to be close when you're in a one-down position. 

Thank you. I know we don't have a ton of time, but how do you help people calibrate a bit to find ground or find this more healthy center, even if we get dysregulated or a little glitchy? 

Yeah. Wow. Well, I mean, that's huge. That's like a huge. 

Question. 

But it comes back to. I think part of what we've been talking about is this idea of. You've said accountability a number of times, and I think it's an important word, and it's an important idea. And again, it's an idea that is unique to each person. When I'm thinking of it, what I'm thinking, the concept that I'm coming from is that I do have to take a risk of owning what it is that I want from this relationship, and then celebrating that I get some of it. 

Right. 

The idea that I'm going to get all of it is just going to create misery, but that I can get some of it most of the time, but maybe not all at the same time. 

Right. Right. 

I mean, this is so, the reality is. And this can sound a little dark, but I mean it in the best way that grieving, yes, the reality is the gateway to relational joy. When we accept that there's this part of me that wants perfection from. From the other person, who wants to never, ever feel disappointed or hurt or sad or unsure or afraid. I want to never feel those things. Of course not. And sorry, it's going to be a part of it. And if we can not see those moments or experiences as a signpost of being in a bad relationship, but as a signpost of being a human, and that we then have to decide, is this something that I need to look at within myself in terms of? 

Realistically, like I say with my partner in my first consciousness response, which is like my first thought, if I don't dig any deeper, I can be like, I wish that my partner wanted to talk about feelings or dreams or whatever as much as I do, when in reality, if he did, he. I'd be partnered with me. And what a pain in the ass that would be. Like, no, thank you there. I benefit from him having different interests and focuses, but what happens is that on a day when I want this thing that is a preference for me. And he's like, not in a spot for that. 

But if I can go past that first consciousness of, like, why isn't he giving me. 

Or showing up in the way that he knows I like it when we talk about this kind of thing, why isn't he doing that? If I can, we. We all can. Not just. We all can get really stuck in that sort of negative spin about what that means about the. Our partner, about us, about our expectations, about their capacities. And then if we can say, like, look at the other person and go, boy, I don't get everything, but there's enough here. And I love these things, and I am going to have to grieve that I don't get those things. This is a concept, by the way, in RLT. I want to give credit to Terry because this is the. This is the concept of relational reckoning, that we have to do a bit of that as part of every relationship. 

And if we can accept that there's pain in it and that's not a bad thing, then we don't have to defend against it because we can move through it. 

Yes. I mean, I'm even thinking about some of our conversations thus far. My own kind of understanding of what you're describing and my personal experience as well, that if I'm stuck on the idea of what a good relationship or how I want my partner to show up for me and I'm not grieving and I'm more kind of trying to get that relationship to look the way that I want it to by whatever means that there's a stuckness to that I'm kind of resisting or not being present. So being with my own grief can allow me to be very present to myself and my own. Like, maybe I need to show up for my dreams and my vision and my emotions, and like, that's. There's more available for me there. 

And that also, if I can be really present because the grieving allows me to be in a place more of acceptance, then perhaps it makes room for more celebration around. 

Oh, my gosh. 

But maybe it even is better than I could have even thought. Because if I'm open and I'm really present, then it can take different forms that I wouldn't have even thought of. 

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, when we're stuck in a narrow belief, if it doesn't fall into that, we don't even know that it's happened. Right. To kind of take in all of the possibilities. There's this, both ends of acknowledging I want this and I might not get this, but do I get enough out here? And what's it like for me to actually receive it? That's really vulnerable. That's the really vulnerable part. Because there is both an end of grieving that we wanted this thing, and we're not getting it in this exact way. And I'm not suggesting, by the way, resentfully trying to convince ourselves to be okay with this. That's not it. It's like, can I actually notice what it's like to receive some unexpected things? And that's where there is a lot of. That's the stuff of intimacy. 

That's the stuff of connection, which is not specific. Certain rigid, narrow, stuck expectations, but being clear about what is and what isn't okay for me. And then. Which is much broader. And then noticing what falls within that. And instead of like, well, I wanted it like this, but you didn't give it to me like that, so it's all out. I wanted it like this. You're showing up like that, which is slightly bigger. And I'm trying to take that in. Yes. 

And can I be curious about what that feels like in my body, how? 

I absolutely relationally feel? 

And that is somewhat of an unknown territory, perhaps. 

Very. I think it's unknown for almost all of us because we do get the message that there is a clear rightness and wrongness. And if you are a good person, you know the right thing. And if you don't. And you used this term earlier. Jessica and I couldn't agree more. Then you're othered. And we see that all over the place right now. It's just being reinforced like crazy in our world. And there's nothing relational about it. 

No. And that, in my belief, and I imagine you would feel similar, maybe not use the same language, but the interconnectedness of us all, like we're all related. Like the web of connection. 

Yeah. 

So there's so much to be said about that. But yeah. Othering is the fallacy. When you talk about just what you started with, around these notions that we're speaking similar languages, but also that we're not connected. Like for the othering is. 

Yeah. 

Okay. 

Well, yeah, that's what drives it. 

Yeah. 

That's 

The more disconnected we feel, the more we are wired for connection. Everything about us is wired for connection. So the more disconnected we feel, the more afraid we feel the more uncertain we feel, the more uncertain and afraid we feel, the more we're looking around for what is dangerous to us and the more we're then going to move into othering and pointing out laws that we perceive ways that other people are doing it wrong, which doesn't bring anybody in, it just creates more disconnection. So, like we've got to reverse the flow, and there we do have tools for that. 

Yes. Let's hear about how people can connect with you and the RLT Institute. Yeah, yeah. 

As I said, I'm a faculty member with the Relational Life Institute. So I teach and train coaches and therapists to become RLT practitioners. But also, we have offerings for the general public, special topics courses that you can take that are about how you can improve your relationship. A couple of years ago, a colleague of mine and I did a course called the Art of Relational Living, and that is a course that people can purchase through the Relational Life Institute. And it's kind of a self-study course on the basics of relationship skills. In my own work, I don't take clients very often. My practice is pretty small, and I'm often pretty full. But I do offer workshops. So relationship-work.com 

This is where you can find out about the relationship workshops that I offer. Instagram: relationalmft.

There's also, you can also go to annasterk.com, and it links to the relationship-work.com, which is another way that people can get more into this model if they're interested in it. To the fundamentals of working with this part of us that doesn't want to be vulnerable, but also can't be connected. 

Yes. I'll make sure to have all of those links on today's show notes. And also, I do know that there's a directory too for people who are interested in working within this model. Some of the practitioners that you've trained. Do you want to say more about that? 

Yes, absolutely. So you can go to terryreal.com, and there you'll find a therapist finder, and so you or a practitioner finder, because we also teach and train folks who are coaches. So if you're looking for in a specific area region, we have people all over the world at this point who are certified as RLT practitioners. Really exciting. I've recently come back from London, where I was training a group of folks to offer relationship workshops with what we call the Essential Relationship Skills bootcamps. That's what I offer. And we just trained a group of folks who are primarily in the UK and Europe, and even beyond, to offer a bootcamp. So it's growing, it's spreading. And the desire for people to learn the skills of relationships is one of the things that I find really hopeful. 

Like, despite what we see, despite the messages that we're told, despite the fear and anger that is rampant, I do believe that most people actually really want connection and love. And that's the intimacy. It's just that it's risky. As you said, it's risky to want those things, and it's risky to put yourself out there. Yes. Because 

There's no risk. There's no vulnerability. That's sort of the paradox of it. And I can tell you, like, there is no shortage of people reaching out to relational practitioners, coaches, and therapists and saying, I really want to develop these skills. And for me, that's incredibly hopeful. And I have seen so many individuals, couples, and relationship groups that have taken those risks to grow their skills and are, like, experiencing the joy of it. 

And I'm grateful to be able to do this work, and I'm grateful to be able to speak to your audience. So thanks so much for having me on. 

I want to thank you. Thank you for what you do in the world and who you're helping train and the lives you're touching and helping spread. Just the pathway and the practice of these fundamentals, these skills that help foster connection and intimacy.