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Are you tired of feeling like you have to choose between keeping the peace and being true to yourself in your relationships? Many people mistake silence for harmony, stuffing down their true feelings for fear of conflict, only to wake up one day feeling unheard, unseen, and disconnected. But what if speaking up—being honest about your needs and setting boundaries—was actually the path to deeper connection and intimacy, not the source of division?

In this episode, listeners are invited to rethink what it means to be authentic in close relationships, especially when it comes to sharing hard truths or setting limits. You’ll hear insights on why self-assertion is not about ruining relationships, but about bringing your whole self into them. By exploring practical strategies, emotional tools, and real-life examples, this conversation guides you in overcoming the fear of rocking the boat—so you can communicate courageously and build relationships where both people feel truly known and valued.

Tonya Lester, LCSW, is the author of Push Back: Live, Love, and Work with Others Without Losing Yourself. A Brooklyn-based psychotherapist and writer known for her work with relationships and communication, her essay “Couples Therapist, Heal Thyself” was published in the Modern Love column in The New York Times, and she has been writing the popular Staying Sane Inside Insanity blog for Psychology Today since 2020. She has been featured as an expert in The Guardian, Newsweek, Well+Good, HuffPost, Fatherly, and the Bumble site, The Buzz.

Episode Highlights

04:03 The link between speaking up, emotional intimacy, and common gendered roles.

07:18 Navigating differences: collaboration, needs, and the relationship as a system.

12:40 Embracing discomfort and staying present with unresolved issues.

13:53 The importance of vulnerability and framing difficult conversations safely.

17:02 Applying healthy pressure: strengthening or releasing relationships.

19:56 Recognizing the “shock absorber” role and its impact on self and intimacy.

23:10 Identifying “shock magnets”: escalation, withdrawal, and unhealthy conflict cycles.

27:29 Communicating effectively with kindness.

30:38 Defining self-possession and its role in relational health.

32:49 Using internal signals and “weathervane” emotions for personal growth.

38:11 Building emotional maturity: self-compassion, timeouts, and ongoing practice.

40:38 Understanding and managing emotional activation.

42:42 Addressing hidden relationship dynamics and the importance of modeling boundaries.

48:21 Exploring possibilities: challenging feelings of being trapped and opening to choice.

51:41 Putting clarity into practice: actionable tools and lasting relationship change.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

• Practice Soft Startups: Begin hard conversations with vulnerability and clarity about your intentions rather than leading with anger or accusation to lower defensiveness in your partner.
• Name Your Emotions: Before raising a difficult topic, identify and share your underlying emotions, such as fear, anxiety, or longing, to increase openness.
• Set Boundaries with Clarity: Clearly state what is not working for you in the relationship and propose specific changes, avoiding blame or generalizations.
• Tolerate Unresolved Issues: Accept that not every problem will have an immediate solution and practice tolerating the discomfort of ongoing, in-process conversations.
• Take Breaks When Activated: When conflict escalates, or emotions run high, pause the conversation and use activities like taking a walk or shower to regulate your nervous system before returning.
• Use “I” Statements: Use concise, direct language to express your needs and feelings without attacking or criticizing your partner.
• Reflect on the System: Regularly assess if both partners are contributing to the emotional work and call out patterns where efforts are imbalanced.
• Model Self-Possession: Take responsibility for your own happiness and choices, setting an example for both yourself and others—including children—about how to live in alignment with your values.

Mentioned

Push Back: Live, Love, and Work with Others Without Losing Yourself (*Amazon Affiliate link) (book)

About Tonya Lester (Psychology Today)

Shifting Criticism For Connected Communication (Free guide)

How Being “Difficult” Can Assist Growth & Development In Relationship (ERP 360)

Connect with Tonya Lester

Website: tonyalester.com

Facebook: facebook.com/tlynnlester/

Instagram: instagram.com/tonyalesterpsychotherapy

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/tonya-lester-b9a3ab14

TikTok: tiktok.com/@tonyalesterlcsw

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Tonya, thank you for joining us again. 

I'm thrilled to be here. Thank you so much for having me, Jessica. 

Yes. And I will put your previous episode from years ago on today's show notes for people who might be interested in catching that first conversation with you. 

How Being “Difficult” Can Assist Growth & Development In Relationship

And you recently wrote a book, and we're going to be talking about some of those concepts here. But for people getting to know you're a psychotherapist, licensed clinical social worker, you're an author, and a huge contributor and writer on many different platforms. And do you want to say the name of your most recent book? 

Yeah, it's called Pushback: Live, Love, and Work with Others Without Losing Yourself. 

Yeah. And we're going to be focusing on intimate relationships. Given the nature of this show, and largely, it seems like, I don't know if you would say, but when I was reading the book, it felt like how to have the balance of being connected in a relationship. “Holding on to yourself and also holding onto yourself often incorporates negotiating with others around limits and boundaries. That's not a nose easy formula.” 

“No, it's not easy, but one of the main points I wanted to make with the book, and I'm always bringing up, is that when we assert ourselves, and we set limits and we say the hard things, we're actually moving towards emotional intimacy. And I think sometimes we have an idea that conflict cuts it off. But the truth is, if you're not speaking up, then you're not known. And if you're not known, then you do not have emotional intimacy.” And so I really encourage people, especially women, who think of ourselves, of course, as relationship keepers, to look at this as we're trying to actually go deeper,

So that's definitely the goal of the book. 

Thank you for just illustrating that. Because I couldn't agree with you more on the front end or short-term focus, it might seem as though, oh, we're keeping things in more stability or harmony to accommodate or appease. I mean, I work with a lot of men who are in this tendency of, please, like the happy wife, happy life. Right. Like, and there are a lot of ways in which it shows up maybe a little differently, but it's similar in its essence to not bring oneself, desire, limits, boundaries to the relationship for fear of creating that disruption or conflict. And yet fast forward, as you're saying, if the relationship can develop, it is not going to be an expression of both people. Thus, extremely limited. 

Absolutely. You know the kind of the stereotype of the very shut-down male. Right. Who doesn't share anything about his day, just pops a beer and watches television, kind of opts out of a lot of like a more intense or emotional conversations, is, I think, the sort of male equivalent of the. I call women shock absorbers in my book. Meaning we take the shocks, we take the upset feelings, we smooth over the rough edges, and try to make sure everyone gets along and takes on this very self-sacrificing role. The male equivalent of that might be. I'm just going to shut down and not say the hard things because happy wife, happy life. Which is, it's such a funny saying. Right. It's just like let's have a connected wife happy life, and like an expressed husband happy life. If we can do that in these healthy ways. Right. We're trying to strike and strengthen the bond. Yes. And that's the only way to do it. 

Absolutely. And it's easier said than done. And, I know we're kind of talking about it right now, but I would love to get a little bit more specific, and just to also name when we're talking about some of the gender pieces we're speaking stereotypically. I do have men who are occupying a lot of the emotional intelligence space in the relationship, and a lot of their female partners are a little bit more dominant, not wanting to collaborate. And it's extremely frustrating to really deeply long for something that can be co-created, and yet it's so conflictual, or there are so many obstacles to achieving that. 

Absolutely. You know what I think of all the time with couples when I'm working with a couple, and they can kind of get on this idea of what we're looking for, which is communication and collaboration. And you know, I love the idea that if you're not happy, I'm not happy. If you're happy, I'm happy. And this idea that I'm going to invest in your happiness and you will invest in mine, and there will be that reciprocity, and not saying your happiness isn't more important than mine, but it isn't less. And I think we vary. 

It's so easy to end up in this kind of one down, one opposition and instead of saying like let's put our cards on the table, how do we co create a family life, a relationship, a life together where we're both getting our needs met about, you know, 70 to 80% of the time when I meet a couple and someone says I'm 100% happy, I don't have a single complaint. I think I bet your partner doesn't feel that way. If someone is a hundred percent, then I think someone else is giving up too much. Right. It's like we're two separate people. We're going to have differences; we're going to have different needs. And so what I tell couples to aim for is like, let's aim for like 80% of our needs met in this relationship. And then I think both people can then have 80%. 

A hundred percent means to me that someone is shutting down. 

Yes. And likely even that 10, 15% or even 20% could be in process or may to your point, never quite be reaching this collaborative win, but that it's okay and that there's some tension and that's still part of the evolution and working together, that we can still find a way to find balance of taking care of ourselves and the relationship. And one other thing too, just as you're talking, it feels as though there's a system, this perspective around the system, like the couple as a system that we're not just looking out for. Number one. 

Right. 

I know we know that in a relationship. But then we can also run the risk of being so for the other person or thinking that's the way to love, and we lose ourselves. So this dance of both individuals, but also the couple bond, is its own entity. So there's this systems perspective that I think can really help when looking at how we work together and be more collaborative. 

Right? That's right. Yeah, I love that. Definitely a systems perspective. And definitely a season of life like this is part of that. Yes. And so when I say 80%, I don't mean you have to sit at a B forever. What I'm talking about more is an example of my own life, which I refer to in the book, is that for years, my husband and I disagreed on where to live, and this was something that came up constantly. What I think is important, and again in the book, I talk about grappling with issues and deal breakers. Right? Deal breakers. We really are untenable. We can't take it. 

Grappling issues are hard issues, but we can continue to be in conversation about them even if we're the ones who aren't happy with how it's going.

And often eventually. And I say in the book, my husband and I now have two homes, which we're so lucky for. And I understand that's not feasible for everyone, but we spend time in both places. And eventually, when our daughter graduates, it'll be 50.  And it was like we finally did it. Like, we argued about this. We've been married 26 years, like, 24 years. And then. And didn't just argue, like, tried to brainstorm and collaborate and look at what is possible here. 

And what's possible right now is not possible when our children were little. But this idea is that no one feels shut down. It's like, this isn't working right now. It is still unsettled for me. I want to have this on the dashboard of the things that we talk about to see if new possibilities open up over time. And that, to me, is not being like, well, he won that argument, now it's over forever. Or I won that argument, now it's over forever, instead of being like, yeah, this isn't quite working. This is where we are now. How can we keep these decisions in play and evolve? 

Oh, my goodness.Thank you for the example. And really making that relatable in the sense of lived life and couplehood. And Tonya, I mean, can we name maybe some of what this requires? “One of the things I'm thinking is being able to tolerate some of the discomfort of staying in the, it's not quite where we want it to be. And that's uncomfortable as humans to, like, be unresolved or in process, unresolved.” 

“And I think because oftentimes we are so activated by conflict that bringing something up that seems like it's not fixable is.” We tend to really avoid those conversations. And I say to people all the time, and this is my own growing edge still, I am still. All this work. I do all this work with couples. I wrote the book, and still I have to push myself to say hard things. I don't like conflict. I like things to be fun and smooth, and everyone getting along. But to say even things like, I'm stressed about money. I don't know what we can do about it, but I just want to talk about it because it's on my mind. And I recognize that you don't have a solution, but can you help me process this? Can this be on the table? 

I don't want to be the only one holding this anxiety. I think things like that are so important. And I think very often, if there's not an obvious solution, we're like, why even bring it up? What's the point? But those conversations, when they're stifled, really build a wall between you and your partner. And often all we want from our partner is, I'm with you. This sounds really hard. I know we're stuck now, but I believe in us. And if we can keep chipping away at this, I know we're gonna move into a new season. And that's very authentic. That's not making up a solution. 

Oh, my goodness. I couldn't emphasize that anymore, in that it's not about the solution. It's about the openness and being present with one another in the process. And that is the strengthening of the bond, not having the magic solution 100%. 

And I think oftentimes there can be a lot of defensiveness. What do you want me to do? 

Right. 

You're afraid to bring it up, and then you bring it up, and it's like, what? I don't know what to tell you about this. What do you want me to do? And I just really encourage, you know, can we drop down the defensiveness? Can we rise, you know, on one side, bring up the courage on the other side, and just say, can we talk about this hard thing? And I give a lot of guidance in the book about how to start those conversations, how to have those conversations. If you've really fallen out of practice in your relationship. 

Yes. Or perhaps maybe never really had great bearings on what this can look like. And that it's incredibly scary. I appreciate you normalizing, and I will be raising my hand right there with you. If I have something that means a lot to me and feels incredibly valuable or important, and I don't see how it fits in the current situation, it feels like a rattle. It feels like a threat in some way to the balance of things. And I love my husband more than anything, and I don't want there to be an issue. And yet that's the crux of, like, I don't wanna. That's the choice point. 

Right. 

I don't wanna compromise myself or feel like I'm rocking the boat or perhaps threatening my relationship. And it's difficult. 

It's difficult. And, you know, it's an interesting can we set a frame at the beginning of these conversations to make it clear that we're not threatening the relationship? And sometimes if we come in hot, right. And it just sounds like I'm unhappy, you need to fix it. We're going to provoke some defensiveness. Whereas if we come in, I want to have a hard conversation. I understand there's not an easy fix here, but I need to share with you what's going on with me. That tends to bring down the defenses or feel less like, oh my gosh, she's upset, and I have to do something, you know, so I think setting a frame goes a long way to making sure it doesn't look like, yeah, I'm saber rattling or making demands. 

For sure, and this is Gottman's talk about a soft startup. Right. Not coming in hot. And I think it can be incredibly disarming to lead with the vulnerability or the just fear or the anxiousness around. This is hard to talk about, and the bravery. 

Yeah, 100% well. 

And you do a beautiful job in your book to really talk about some of the ways in which we're conditioned and how we might not have had good experiences. And this can impact our confidence level of even being brave because, like we're both saying, we have a good sense of the territory, we can kind of lay out the good practices, and we have experience doing it. We might coach and lead other people to do it, and we still are scared. 

Yeah, right. Even despite, you know, having. I mean, my husband and I, obviously, he. It's not like he doesn't know that this is an issue. Right. We have done so much work together on this, and still, I would just, given my kind of natural inclination, I will always choose a nice dinner and a glass of wine and a very, like, sweet interaction over. I have something hard to say, but I've learned over and over again that when you end one of these hard conversations, you. Your partner looks you in the eye and says, I hear you. How you feel matters to me. I'm not sure what to do, but I want you to know I'm with you in this; your heart will crack open. You will feel so close. It will be so affirming. 

And another thing I talk about in the book is this idea of putting some pressure on the system with the idea that if we can put pressure on our relationship and the relationship can tolerate this kind of healthy pressure, the relationship will get stronger. And if the relationship cannot tolerate you coming open and vulnerable and sharing who you are and sharing what your needs are. And you know, not all of these conversations are going to be like, kind of okay with no resolution. And sometimes, 

If you want a child and your partner does not want a child, or vice versa, there is no compromise about that. And sometimes these relationships should collapse so that you can each go and create the life that you are meant to live right there. 

Sometimes there is such a thing as giving up too much in a relationship. But let's try, right? Let's put the pressure on the system. Let's not try to talk ourselves out of our feelings, out of our desires, over and over again in order to stay in a relationship that maybe shouldn't last. Right? Not every relationship is supposed to. So let's be brave. Let's talk about the hard things, and then let's make the hard choices. 

Yes. On an aside, I actually worked with a couple in this last year where. They were separated for a period of time because she wanted to have a baby, and he did not. And she had a child. Then they ended up there, and that her, and the father of her child became more platonic. They re-engaged, and they've been in a relationship this entire time. So she basically had a child. And then they've somehow been able to negotiate being together still. And her child is soon to graduate in a few years. So it's quite phenomenal that even in that context, people can still negotiate and figure out how to work together even in the most seemingly deal-breaking situation. 

Yes, completely.

Well, do you want to say anything about how someone can start to identify if they've been more accommodating, or perhaps you use terminology around the shock absorbing and then the shock magnet? Do you want to talk a little bit about how people can kind of look at maybe what's interfering with or being able to engage in these kinds of honest, vulnerable conversations? 

So, shock absorbing is definitely the person who retreats from hard conversations or sharing a difference of opinion or engaging in healthy conflict with this idea that I am the keeper of harmony. I'm the keeper of the relationship, and I really need to. I can suppress any part of myself. This is something I hear from women in particular all the time. I don't mind. Like, my unhappiness is so much easier for me to bear than his unhappiness. Their unhappiness, her unhappiness. I would rather just swallow it. I can't handle his difficult feelings. And these people, they know, I mean, I have never said. It sounds like you're shock absorbing. And had someone be like, I don't know what you're talking about. Everyone knows immediately what I'm talking about. Right. You, you know, you're doing this because you avoid conflict. You don't say hard things. 

Some people think he can't handle it. The relationship won't last. I can give myself up, give up my. These parts of myself need to keep harmony and keep this relationship together. And over time, you know, you'll find yourself being flattened. Oftentimes, that comes with a lot of depression because you kind of turn on yourself instead of showing your anger to others.

It's how you wake up. And I've heard this so many times from women, and it breaks my heart every time. Wake up, like midlife, and say,  I don't know who I am anymore. I don't know what happened to me. I don't. How did I get here? This isn't what I wanted at all. So that is often. And sometimes there's a lot of passive aggression. Sometimes there's a lot of codependency. Right. I just have to keep everybody else happy, no matter what it costs me. That's the shock absorber. 

And that's gonna also affect the intimacy. 

Right. 

It's hard to have typically good sexual intimacy when all of this is kind of operating underneath, like, it's hard to. Interesting. 

Yeah. Yeah. Okay. 

Just wanted to comment on it. 

Well, you're kind of dead. You know, you're deadening parts of yourself. And we don't get to suppress part of ourselves without suppressing all of ourselves. And so that doesn't lead itself to the, like, sexual connection or desire because we flattened out all of our. The rest of our desires, you know, let alone sexual desires. So 100% no. And so. And then a lot of times you're kind of going through the motions, and then your body shuts down even farther. And it's a. It's a very vicious cycle. 

Absolutely. 

The shock magnet, I think, is less common. But I did want to call it out, you know, because I am encouraging conflict. In the opening of my book, I say that oftentimes we're told by clergy or other couples therapists or maybe our parents, you have to fight for your marriage, you have to fight for it. But what they're actually asking women to do is to shut up for your marriage, suppress for your marriage, and go along for your marriage. And I'm saying, no, fight for your marriage. I want you to fight for it. And I want there to be conflict. I want you to say the hard things. I want you to lean into what is controversial or upsetting in order to build that emotional intimacy and be known. 

What I'm of course not talking about is a kind of scorched earth, you know, name-calling, grenade-throwing approach to. No one gets closer to that. And I think that there are certainly people who, in their bids for closeness, actually really drive people away because they want vulnerability and connection, but they go after it in this kind of ferocious way that causes people to withdraw from them. So, and you know, if that's your issue, because you drive people away, like people maybe say, I'm kind of afraid of you when you're angry, or you have a lot of relationships that have kind of collapsed when you've tried to show anger. And then I think that's a sign that you need to put some boundaries around your own expression. Not in being dishonest, but in adding some vulnerability. 

And so people can really hear what you're saying. Right. It's like that thing, if you're screaming at me, I can't hear you because my nervous system is so activated. So, it's like this is the other shock magnet. It's the other side. But truly, a lot of the interventions are the same. 

Yes. And one thing you point out, which I think is very true, is that sometimes the shock absorber will hold, hold, hold, and get to a certain threshold. And then there's, it's like reached a point of this regulation. And then the capacity to be able to say in kind, tactual ways is kind of like out the window. 

It's out the window. 

So then the shock magnet comes on board, and it's like, to your point, people in response or in receptivity to that are like so distracted by the delivery that they can't understand the message or can't hear it. To your point? 

Yeah, I call that say nothing, say nothing, freak out, you know, and my whole, all the women in my family are like, so I'm very familiar with this pattern. And I feel like there is almost worse is that you end up apologizing for the way you said it, and what you said gets lost anyway. And so then you kind of did take the chance. And it's so discouraging, you know, you did feel like you said the thing, but it's, it gets swept away in your apologies around how you said it. And so it's kind of the worst of both worlds. Right? You don't. There's no closeness, there's no deeper understanding. And then you probably feel guilty, and then you go back to the shop, absorbing, and then the whole pressure builds, builds. The same thing happens again. 

Oh my gosh. Yeah, it's like the delivery discredits the message, and that's right. It's like bringing it back down to like, what was that like? I didn't get anywhere with that. 

I didn't get anywhere. 

So, for helping people to develop. Because part of what I understand is that you offer a lot in the book, and I know a lot of people get a lot of value in sessions where I might reflect to them what I'm hearing. And they've just not had language to really say the thing they want to say in a way that feels resonant but also tactful or kind or could be heard. And how do you help people to start getting some anchor into the practices that develop this? 

Yeah, so one thing I hear often in sessions, and I'm sure you do too, is this is impossible to say. Or the way they have it, hear it in their head is so outrageous. Right. I use this as an intimate example, but I use an example from the book because in the book I'm talking about all sorts of relationships. A woman I worked with who didn't want her mother-in-law to help to decorate the nursery, and she says, well, how. What am I supposed to say? I hate you, and I do have terrible taste. It's like, no, definitely don't say that. Like, you for sure don't have to say that. We can say things with this example. 

I said, ” What if you say, yeah, I've got my own ideas for the nursery, and I hope that you stick to the registry, which is the stuff I picked out. Like, we don't have to throw a bomb to get our point across. And so I really think I advise people all the time in the book. I have scripts because I, you know, this is, I am good at thinking of what to say in sort of a very basic way of what to say and how to say it. But I think we can take a minute in, you know, and we can write it down, and we can say what I would feel if this is what was said to me? Is there a way to make it simpler? Is there a way to make it clearer? 

Is there a way to kind of take some of the teeth out of it, whilst still having it be really clear? And some people absolutely over-index on the kindness and end up saying almost nothing. I thought there was such a funny study about the sandwich technique, where we say a good thing, then the hard thing, then a good thing. Very often, people don't hear the hard thing at all; they just skip over it. The sand switch technique, which has been taught for years, is not effective. So I think we do have to say, and it helps to have these kinds of soft starts, I want to talk about something that I think is going to be hard to hear, but I must say, let them brace themselves. 

Like, let them take a minute and say, okay, what is she gonna say? And then say, you know, this is really upsetting to me. I don't like how this is going. You know, we decided on this one thing, but it's not working for me anymore, and I want to do something different. Like, like those aren't, that's not attacking, that's not mean, that's not saying you're an idiot. That's not saying you're, you know, repressing me. It's saying this isn't working for me right now, and I want to do something different. Here's what I'm proposing. I want to hear your ideas, but something has to change, right? These are all things that should be in bounds in a loving relationship. 

Thank you. I appreciate just kind of helping people have some orientation around what this can look like. And also you talk about being self in self-possession or being self-possessed. And sometimes it's helpful for people who haven't occupied that space fully to get a little bit of a sense of what that looks like or who that person is, so they can start to take steps or emulate or kind of start to move towards that. Can you say a little bit about what being more self possessed as you talk about? 

Yeah, I think of self-possession as the sum of its parts. Not just being kind of graceful or dignified, or you know, someone who doesn't lose control, which I think is sometimes how we think about it. I think of it as being like I am in possession of myself, which means I'm responsible for how I behave. I'm responsible for the choices I make. I expect the people in my life to likewise take full responsibility for themselves. I know who I am. I know what my values are, and I take ownership of those things. And if I'm not living according to my values, if I'm not being heard, I can take steps towards change. And that to me is really, I have one life, and I'm responsible for it. And I cannot accept whatever falls off the truck in front of me. 

I do not expect poor treatment. And I don't allow others to have me veer away from my values or desires. To disown them or to repress them. And, you know, I think sometimes we can say, ” How did I get here? And then it's like, well, it's because of this person. It's because of this person. And we have to part of being an adult is saying, okay, that may be all true, but starting at this moment, whether I'm 20 or 30 or 40 or 50 or 60 or 70 or 80, I can always choose to do something different. I can lean into my values. I can get curious about who I am. There are books, there are therapists, there are coaches, there are dear friends. 

If you don't, if you can't answer those questions. And then, you know, it's. I need to learn to speak up. I need to lean into emotional intimacy. I need to be brave. And self-possession to me is taking responsibility for doing that. 

Thank you. 

No matter what age. Yeah. 

Yes. Well, the other thing that occurs to me is not an arrival point that is absolutely. We're continually. At least I'll speak for myself. There's a sense of alignment that I feel in self-integrity. And also, as I grow, I might recognize certain things that I wasn't aware of, or as a mentor of mine, we'll talk about noticing longing and discontent, which are good indicators of things that I am feeling. And you talk about the weather vein emotions. 

Yes. And say that. 

So that we might get indicators internally, a stir of something feels off, or ooh, that didn't feel good. I probably want to clean that up, or I want to see if I can have some repair with this person. 

So, yeah. 

That's it. 

Yeah, sure. Well, the Weather vein emotions like this, can we look at difficult emotions and emotions we often kind of label as bad or ungenerous? And can we instead see them as rich sources of information about who we are and what we want? So jealousy is a huge one. People always try to disown jealousy or envy instead of being like, no, I don't have to wish they didn't have it, but what is it about them or their life that creates this deep yearning in me. And then can I move toward? Move towards solving that for myself? So 

We're either not setting them at all or we're not honoring them and being really clear about them. That's a big one. 

You know, a feeling of depression or sadness, or just this, almost like you feel unhooked from your true purpose or your life. This kind of almost dissociation can sometimes be like, whoa, what do I need to do to kind of shake myself out of that and move towards being the person that. That I expect to do. So the hardest emotions give us the most information. We don't learn that much about ourselves, enjoy, because that means we're aligned. That means we're in alignment. And that's wonderful, and we should seek that out. But it's the hard emotions that kind of point us in the direction we should be going. 

So one way of saying that, perhaps, is that these can be really valuable teachers if we absolutely listen. 

Yeah, 100%, yeah. Our most valuable teachers. 

And is there more you want to say about standing firm in this conviction? Because it seems as though when we are in practice, we are feeling some sense of bravery or just feeling aligned. My experience, as I was talking about this kind of development, I will get tested or something super inconvenient or super complex. And I'm like, I don't know where to find my, like, alignment here. I don't know how to find my balance. Do you want to speak to that? 

Yeah. I mean, you're really just talking about being human. Right. And sometimes we're out of alignment because we have changed, or we've entered a new season of life, and what we want and our needs are just different. And sometimes we, it's like our brains haven't caught up with that. And then we're like, whoa, why is this happening again? And I think we do have to look at. It's like we will go in and out of alignment. We will feel closer or farther away. And relationships, it's very realistic to look at a relationship. We will sometimes feel very close, and then we will kind of drift, but we just have to notice it, right? And keep moving towards the other person or towards ourselves. And I think having so much self-compassion. 

Another thing I talk about in the book about emotional maturity is whether I can 

Can I say, I'm doing my best, and so are they. Can I hold that even when I'm angry, even when I feel a little bit out of alignment? So I think we have to make a lot of space for ourselves, like we are human beings. Things will change; we will have to. This work is really the work of a lifetime. But the truth is, this is how we stay engaged in our lives. This is, it's not I think many people have this fantasy that adulthood means you've arrived and now you're all set, and then it's just like clear sailing. And of course, every single adult will tell you that's not true at all. It's always a lot of room for growth, always a growing edge, which can kind of feel like you're always climbing a mountain. But it's also what keeps us engaged and interested and hopefully fulfilled over time. 

“Yes. And do you have any way that you access or teach people to access more emotional maturity if they're really challenged in a situation where it's hard to have that empathy or that kind of holding perspective?” 

“Yeah, there are a couple of things. One is that we sometimes, when we're gonna lose, that is often when we are very activated, and we need to be able to create speed bumps in that activation to take a minute, realign, calm our nervous systems. And so, the clearest, easiest way to do that is to take a time out.” Right. This is why every single therapist will sometimes say you have to take a break. Like, don't let an argument or a fight be a runaway train. We can look at hard conversations, which are usually not one hard conversation. They're usually a hundred hard conversations over time. And that I think can bring relief, to let go of some of that anxiety that this has to be solved right now. Right. 

So, can we say I'm feeling really activated? I'm going to go take a shower. In my book, I talk about how we have to change our state often in order to really use the timeout effectively. I'm going to go for a run, and I'm going to go watch something on television. That always makes me laugh. And then can I come back, reconnect with that empathy for myself and the other person, make sure I can kind of clear away that, you know, Terry Real talks about a core negative image. And we all, again, everybody knows what that means, right? We're mad at our partner and then, every stingy characteristic he has, or every thing we haven't liked and have never liked, comes to the forefront, and we forget about why we're together. 

And so can I give myself a minute to let go of that core negative image, see him again, see her again as a person, and reconnect with some vulnerability and empathy. But we have to take a time out. Oftentimes,

Agreeing to table a conversation like with love and then come back to it if it feels like. If you both feel like you're banging your head against a wall, go watch a movie together or something, you know, take a break, and you can come back. If it's a big, if it's a big issue, it will take time. It's like a knot that we're trying to keep kind of tugging away at until it loosens and then eventually clears out. 

That's a great analogy. And just the many conversations that it's likely not trying to hit a home run out of the ballpark, like a conversation. And I appreciate the importance of the nervous system. Like we're so aware of, through neuroception, one another's nervous system state, the facial expressions, the tone of voice. So to be able to regulate and calm is really setting more opportunity or setting it up more for this more connective, collaborative conversation. If we can reset and find our bearings and get ourselves a bit calmer. 

Yes. 

And then I love just the recognition that we may have a narrative that wants to kind of perpetuate. And as you said, it's easy to want to blame, it's easy to want to find fault. It would be so much easier if it were someone else's responsibility. And so you, when you say clear, is there just to kind of let people listening that if one notices, oh, I find myself kind of going to this mindset or this kind of thinking pattern to help find that empathy or that. “Is it just to kind of recall, like, why I love this person, or what helps?” 

“Yeah, I mean, if you can do that. One thing, just to go back to the nervous system, is when we're very activated, we're not going to be able to do very much good thinking right until that activation has settled down. And I think we have to be very realistic about that. It's as if there's going to be the activation.” It's that we're going to feel pretty hijacked by our emotions, and then there's going to be like a half-life,  if we think of it like almost like if you take a medicine, right? It's like a medicine has a half-life, so it's still in your body. The example I always use is, you know, I'm a New Yorker, if someone yells at you on the subway, you're going to feel upset and activated for like hours, right? 

And we can't just shake that off. And so similarly, if we've been upset, if we're upset in an interaction, we have to, like, we have to self-soothe a little bit around that. We have to give that some time and breathing room before our nervous system, you know, so primal, actually calms down. So the nervous system is no joke. We absolutely have to pay attention and override it. 

We can't want to. 

Yes, we can't. We absolutely cannot. So that's one piece. The other thing is, if we can access why we love that person, although maybe that's not realistic, even if we deeply love that other person in that moment, can we say to ourselves, there must be something I'm not understanding about the perspective? Like, I don't think that this person is an idiot. Like, so is there something here? Can I listen a little harder? Can we say one thing? I say to clients all the time What's true about what he is saying, or ” What's true. Can I access? Okay, well, that part is right. And if I acknowledge this part is right, then even if I disagree, I can see at least where they're coming from. 

And if that's reciprocal, if both people are doing that, you are going to get to a resolution much more quickly. And often this is where it's good to bring in a third person. Because as someone whose nervous system is not activated by what's happening between you, oftentimes you can help them. You can help each person kind of see the other's perspective and see things in a clear, less emotional way. And you know, that's like, it's one of the highest and best uses of couples therapy. But also sometimes taking time, asking yourself, ” What am I missing here? You know, if I were going to argue the other person's perspective, even to do this as a journal prompt, what would I say? Right. How can I help shift so? So that I see it how they're seeing it. 

What can be hard sometimes is that one person is always doing that work, and the other person is not. And I think we can. That's not too much to ask of our partner. I'm working very hard to see where you're coming from, and I'm not feeling that from you. And that is very frustrating and feels very unfair. Right. You can say that's clear, and oftentimes, and this can be extreme, or it can be subtle. It's like one person is doing all the emotional work in a relationship. One person has spent years in therapy, goes to group, and reads all the books. And that's not fair because oftentimes we're the person with the core issue who is the only one not working on themselves. 

And, you know, I've seen situations, I reference this in the book, where the whole family is in therapy except for one person. And it's like, oftentimes everyone else is in therapy to figure out how to deal with. With that one person's behavior. And if. If that's what you know, sometimes you are kind of facilitating, perpetuating this negative. This negative pattern. And I say with you, with your kids, it's like, are you teaching them to be shock absorbers to not rock the boat with this one very difficult person, that if that's what's happening, then you have to look very hard at whether the relationship is salvageable. Right. Because again, 

connected relationship and to really. 

Be honest about questioning that. 

Absolutely. Yes. For sure. 

And perhaps make that bit more visible. 

Yes. Right. Yeah. Call it out. Absolutely. Make it visible. We can say, I don't. It's not fair that I've been in therapy for years, and you insist on not going, when actually what I talk about in my therapy session is how to improve this relationship. But I can't do it all by myself. Again, that is clear. That's not attacking. That does not mean. It is clear. And yeah, that's it would be a hard thing to say and a hard thing to hear, but necessary. 

And also, as you're saying in the questioning, the dynamic, I feel really stuck. 

Yeah. 

“And I don't know how to, I'm feeling responsible, and I want to do this with you, and I don't know how to do it with you.” 

“Yeah. And even though I love you, I can't stay in this dynamic. And so if it doesn't change and I don't see effort on your part to change it, sustained effort, because it is very hard to change these patterns, then I have to leave.” Right. It's like we have to save ourselves in some situations.

And I write the book in full understanding that you can try all of these things, and it might not work. But what I'm saying is try. Try all the things, but then go. If you're not, if there is no reciprocity, then sometimes you do have to leave. And we only have one life. And, I think about that all the time. 

It's like, how do I want, what do I want this life to look like, and what do I want if you have children? We are always either modeling how to act or modeling what to accept all the time. And so that's almost 

Yes. I mean, there are so many ripple effects to being in practice. And also, most importantly, that we are in our right place in the universe. Right. We're living our lives, and we are in congruence around the values of being self-possessed. You know, there's a story in your book that struck me, and it's not intimately related, but to this point, I think when we are confined by the shock absorbing or feeling all the efforts to help, and it's not changing to not set a boundary or not call it out, like that would be the no-go zone. Like, we make up stories around what that would mean. And the story that I'm referencing is, I can't remember if it was you or someone else, but it was an environment of a boss that would have these kinds of outcomes. 

Oh yes. Huh. 

I don't know if you want to share it briefly, but it's like, it's kind of like I could never. There's nothing I can do here. 

So perhaps. Yeah,  that's right. This is a client's story, and she had a job that she really loved, but an extremely volatile boss, like you know, throwing a stapler against the wall and kicking a garbage can, like really unprofessional. But this boss was very talented and was definitely not going anywhere in the agency. And so my client really feels like, I am trapped, there is nothing to do, either I give up this job that I love. That's going to be so good for my career, but I am being abused. Right. And this was someone who couldn't just shake it off. Her nervous system was constantly activated. She wasn't sleeping on Sunday nights before she had to go back to work. 

Everyone who loved her, this isn't in the book, but everyone who loved her was like, ‘Please, please leave this job. It's making you sick. And then she had. 

And she loved every aspect of the job.

Everything. 

Besides, this interaction was when her boss was in this state. 

Yeah, and she was really afraid of her boss and felt very trapped in this position. And then someone, a new person, started at her level, and this new person would just leave. Like she would just excuse herself and leave the office. Like she was not going to sit there while someone was throwing a stapler against the wall. And just having that example of someone, kind of pushing back in this way, which is just like, no, this isn't safe for me. And I'm not going to subject myself or my nervous system, frankly, to this type of behavior. So when she would see the boss getting activated, she would say, okay, I think things, I think we should circle back to this when everyone's feeling calmer,  and just go now. 

Could there be repercussions to that? Yeah, of course. I mean, that boss could have fired her on the spot, or she wouldn't have gotten good projects, whatever. But that isn't actually what happened, and the coworker was someone who, to me, this is self-possession to say, I will not subject myself to this kind of.
That's an abusive environment. I'm going to leave. And if I get fired for taking care of myself, I trust that I will land on my feet. Like, just believe in your own resilience. And it was amazing because for my client, because she really, even as much as I would try and support her and other people in her life, she just couldn't see a kind of a third way until this beautiful example just landed right in her office. And then, this was a very young person, and I'm sure it's changed the trajectory of her life. Like having that wonderful example. 

Yes. And the propensity, how fear can trap us, and that when we can start to get an opening of a different possibility, how profoundly. 

Well, just mind expanding, that is. And fear does, it constricts. Right. 

That's how it's supposed to work. Right. We're being chased on the savannah. We want to only be looking at our escape route. But in modern times, right in an office, oftentimes it can blind us to potential third possibilities, fourth possibilities. And one thing I say in the book and say often is that we always have choices. We might not like our choices, and that's just part of life and being an adult. 

So when we find ourselves saying, I don't have any choices. I'm trapped, I'm stuck. There's nothing I can do. We need to push back on. 

There's some reality testing in our own minds that we need to do. And I have journal prompts for that. 

Oh, my gosh, yes. 

Yeah. 

Just asking a different question can be so helpful to open up new possibilities. 

Yeah. 

And I do think even the weight of a career or a job, but also the weight of an intimate relationship, and how we feel trapped, and how, like, the stakes are so incredibly high. So I'm so grateful that you distill so clearly these principles and also make it actionable through these exercises and journal prompts. Do you want to say anything more before we point people towards how to get your book and connect with you? 

Just that, what I was going for in the book was as much clarity as I could, and I wanted it to be clear, and I wanted it to be simple. I think it's a very fast read. And my greatest hope is that people can take some of these ideas and use them immediately. And so I say at the beginning of the book, and I believe this so strongly. I want this book to change your life and your relationships. And so I'm trying to give you all the tools to say, I can do this piece today, and then maybe build up to some of the harder things. But that's my greatest hope, that people can act on these ideas and make meaningful changes. 

Thank you so much for what you've contributed. And I will say, reading the book, it's just such a great invitation and reminder. Like, I don't know that we have as many voices advocating for pushing back, setting limits, and challenging. Like, I think there's so much more collective messaging around whether or not it's historical or whatever the source is. But to be accommodating or be helpful, like, somehow the distribution of voice, I just feel like it's really helpful and encouraging and motivating to kind of have your perspective, so where would you like to invite people to go to connect with you and get your book? 

I'm on Instagram, Tonya Lester Psychotherapy. Facebook and LinkedIn, I show up there quite a bit, and the book is Pushback: Live, Love, and Work with Others without Losing Yourself. And it's really everywhere books are sold, so I'd love it if people picked up a copy. I also have a blog on Psychology Today: Staying Sane Inside Insanity. And I try to write every week there, so if people are interested. Excellent.

So I'll make sure to have the link to your book as well as your Psychology Today blog. And thank you again for all that you've shared here today. 

Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it, Jessica.