Podcast: Play in new window

Subscribe: RSS

Desire isn’t always as simple as it seems. For many couples, the initial spark of sexual and emotional intimacy can dim over time, replaced by questions, misunderstandings, and the painful sense that something has faded or is “broken.” When mismatched desire enters a relationship, it can quickly become a battleground, leaving one or both partners feeling blamed, rejected, or disconnected—not only from each other but from their own bodies and needs.

In this episode, listeners are invited to look beneath the surface of desire patterns and rethink how intimacy is cultivated over time. The conversation explores why the “problem” of desire is rarely rooted in one partner and how it is shaped instead by cycles of emotional and physical disconnection, unexamined beliefs, and the need for safety and self-awareness in the body. Listeners will discover tools for moving from blame toward curiosity, collaboration, and deep connection, and learn practical ways to rediscover what turns them on—together.

Tarisha Tourok is a trauma-informed sex and relationship therapist and founder of Sexual Empowerment for Women. She helps unlock women's sexual desire and guides them into intimacy that melts their hearts and delights their souls. With 15+ years of experience, Tarisha blends psychotherapy, sacred sexuality, and somatic healing to help women reclaim the power and beauty of their sexuality—so they can live, love, and connect with radiant confidence.

Episode Highlights

06:06 Reframing desire differences.

12:14 The complex factors influencing sexual desire.

16:07 Shifting from spontaneous to responsive desire and reconnecting with your body.

19:39 Exploring how to build responsiveness and address past trauma

22:44 How culture, religion, and body image affect desire.

24:26 Generational influences and healing transgenerational trauma.

27:41 Breaking family cycles to create new patterns.

31:46 Building a stronger relationship with your body and sense of desire.

36:55 Emotional resonance, safety, and shared intimacy practices.

44:33 Cultivating intimacy through personal and relational growth.

49:18 Redefining pleasure: Connection over performance & practical resources.

Your Checklist of Actions to Take

• Adopt a “Team” Mindset: Approach intimacy challenges as a shared experience rather than individual problems, discussing openly how to become partners in exploration.
• Create Space for Exploration: Remove blame and give both partners space to explore what turns each person on, without feeling pressure or guilt.
• Practice Vulnerability: Softly communicate underlying fears or insecurities instead of defaulting to frustration or blame, helping both partners connect on a deeper level.
• Carve Out Time for Intimacy: Intentionally prioritize time together, making room for connection and recognizing the impact of daily busyness on sexual desire.
• Reconnect with Your Body: Develop practices—such as breathwork, mindful movement, or sensory experiences—that help you feel and respond from within your body.
• Acknowledge and Address Blocks: Identify and compassionately address personal blocks like trauma, self-judgment, or negative societal messaging before focusing on sexual desire.
• Share Sexual Blueprints: Take a sexual desire quiz, compare results, and discuss with your partner what environments and practices make you feel most turned on and safe.
• Redefine Goals for Intimacy: Shift away from performance-oriented goals like orgasm, focusing instead on connection, pleasure, and mutual presence in your intimate experiences.

Mentioned

Reclaim Your Sexual Confidence mini-course (free mini-course)

Sexual Desire Quiz (quiz)

12 Relationship Principles to Strengthen Your Love (free guide)

Connect with Tarisha Tourok

Website: sexualempowermentforwomen.com

Facebook: facebook.com/groups/theradiantwomenclub

YouTube: youtube.com/channel/UCvY7loDn-rDRUcUa-z3Lv_A

Instagram: instagram.com/tarishatourok

Connect with Dr. Jessica Higgins

Facebook: facebook.com/EmpoweredRelationship 

Instagram: instagram.com/drjessicahiggins 

Podcast: drjessicahiggins.com/podcasts/

Pinterest: pinterest.com/EmpowerRelation 

LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/drjessicahiggins 

Twitter: @DrJessHiggins 

Website: drjessicahiggins.com  

Email: [email protected]

If you have a topic you would like to be discussed, please contact us by clicking on the “Ask Dr. Jessica Higgins” button here. 

Thank you so much for your interest in improving your relationship. 

Also, I would so appreciate your honest rating and review. Please leave a review by clicking here. 

Thank you!  

*With Amazon Affiliate Links, I may earn a few cents from Amazon if you purchase the book from this link.

Episode Transcript

Tarisha, thank you so much for joining us. 

Thank you, Jessica. It was so nice to have you on my podcast, and you felt so easy to talk to talk to you. Yeah, it's a good day. 

Yeah. I'll put the link to that conversation in today's show notes. And from what I understand, we are going to be talking about desire and intimate relationships, and sometimes the experience of either mismatched desire, as well as sometimes the experience. Experience that something's fading. Like the erotic kind of spark. Where would you like to start? Around what you want people to know. How you frame the landscape of long-term intimacy as it relates to desire. 

Yeah, it's a great question. So what's very interesting, what I found very interesting, and I just wrote a blog about it, is that the most painful bit is when the desire becomes a problem, and it becomes her problem. And that becomes really painful. So the way I frame it, and it's right in the EFT, it's a cycle. So that most important piece, I think, for people to understand that it's a cycle, it's a pattern that we engage in. And I know that, as you know, right.

And when it's just one partner, it's really difficult because one partner starts to feel blamed. And the more they feel blamed, the more they feel guilty, or there's something wrong with me. Of course, the desire is not there. Right. Somehow, they start to feel broken. 

It feels uncomfortable. And that's the quickest way to actually remove all the intimacy. “So the most important piece is that, okay, this is our relationship, and something is happening here. How can we understand it? How can we work together as a team?” And I just had a couple yesterday, which was just so beautiful. Finally, they came to a place like, oh, now we're a team. It's not my problem. It's us doing it together. And yeah, if whatever people take from today's interview, that if they can take this piece, that it's not your problem, it's not my problem. We can work it out together. That's the only way forward. 

I love that. And so it sounds like just to kind of reflect what I'm hearing you say in relationship, whether or not it's a heterosexual relationship or same sex, that perhaps the lower desire, what is looking like the lower desired partner, sometimes will feel as though it's their problem. And that if the reframe can be, oh, this is a Couple, we have a way in which we operate together, we dance together, and we can approach this as a we. Is that right? 

As a we, yeah. And then things can shift. Yeah, because it is a dance, right? 

Yes.

And that's kind of what happens in the emotional cycle. Usually,

and doesn't want to talk about it. And one person really wants to talk about it. And when partners work against each other, what I find often happens is that the low desire partner doesn't have a chance to actually explore if it becomes my problem. They don't have a chance to explore what actually turns me on. What do I? And quite often, that, you know, especially in long-term relationships, that pattern has been running for a while, and they never had a chance to explore what turns them on. 

“And the only way they can start exploring is if there's no pressure, if they don't feel like there's something wrong with me, because if we go into fixing myself, it's a really different attitude than when we start exploring, and we bring curiosity and playfulness.” So yeah, that's the fastest way to actually come out of it is okay, it's no one's problem. How can we bring that curiosity back again? And of course, I get it because for the strong desire partner, what happens is they feel so rejected, so dismissed, and it feels so painful. So 

Because of being rejected again and again. And there's a point that then high desire partner just gives up, and they're like, I'm not even asking anymore. 

So it's not just for the low desire partner to give space for the like, oh, actually what turns you on, but actually for the strong desire partner, like, yeah, it's been painful. I've tried to reach out to you, and it hasn't worked somehow. Yeah. And it's not because you don't desire me. It's because the low desire partner, maybe they haven't explored, they don't even know what turns them on. “So, taking that kind of personal piece that, like they do that, they avoid sex with me because I'm not attractive enough, they don't love me, they don't desire me, creates more and more pain. But when it's like, well, actually, how can we create this open space to explore what turns me on? Yeah, how can I reach out and not feel rejected?” 

And for the low desire partner, how can I? What is that space that I need to create? For myself, where I can maybe sometimes initiate, not all the time, but maybe sometimes, to give that high desire partner that feeling of being wanted, feeling desired. Because I feel like that's what we get like in relationships. Right. Like just when we feel this unwanted, undesired, it's just such a good feeling, you know, it does start to feel special. 

Yes, especially if that's really helpful for feeling the arousal or the interest in being sexual. Right. If that's one of the turn-ons, that's really helpful to be made visible in the couple dynamic. And I really appreciate it. Sounds like you're identifying that the place in which we approach one another can have a really big difference in our experience. So for the partner that is perhaps more interested in sex and initiating more, it could be easy with that rejection and that pain to point the finger at the other person. 

Like, you killed me so much. 

If you would just be more interested. 

We would be fine. 

And that lead does sound like the implied problem. Right. The person has an issue when there's so much. 

Right. If you wouldn't put so much pressure on so much, then we would be fine. 

Yes. And then you're saying on the internal in on the inside, there's a bit more vulnerability. And if that can be made more visible, it can create a little more softening, so that it's like, oh, actually I'm feeling afraid you don't find me attractive anymore, or that you don't find our sexual relationship important, or I'm scared or I'm worried or I feel, you know, all the things. And that's a little bit easier to approach or lean in with. 

Yes. Well, the pieces I don't know. But what I find the normal human reaction. Right. 

and because when we feel powerless. Right. What I see what happens with the high desire partner, they feel powerless. I've tried and tried, and somehow they're not responding, and we drop into that powerless place, and it's so difficult for us to face it and actually be vulnerable in that place. And that's why I feel like all the problems happen because, as humans, I don't know why it's so difficult to be human. I don't know if you have an idea about it, but it's so difficult to actually stay with that sense of powerlessness and be able to share vulnerably. And I guess that's where therapists come in. Right. 

Because we hold people there, we help them share from that place. But when we're by ourselves, it's just such a difficult place. And if we could only do that, right? Both partners can do that, then there's no problem. But the problem happens because, feeling powerless, rejected, and being able to share that with our partners sometimes feels like it's an impossible task. 

Yes. It's like the last thing I want to do. 

So that's. I've been like, really thinking, feeling into that. Why is it so difficult to be human and like, really share our vulnerability? Because that's where the love and connection lie. But it's difficult, right? 

Well, when we know and have had experiences where we've been responded to, our system can begin to feel the benefit of it. Benefit of the risk. Right. We're willing to take that risk. And when we're uncertain or have had bad things happen or haven't been responded to, it can feel terrifying. Like, I don't know what's going to happen. I'm. We might not make it. And it can feel like a very critical moment. So I think that, to your point, when there can be a little more support and holding, that can help us get an experience to build off of. 

Yeah. So I guess for couples and like, for me as well, the biggest piece, I think, here is that

because that was going to bring that connection back. And of course, if we haven't had those experiences, just so difficult to do it by ourselves. 

Yes. And life's moving quickly, and to make room and space to be more in our body, to be more present, to make room for the sexual intimacy that can sometimes just even carving out the time can be difficult. But then to look at what our unique experiences are and what supports our desire, what supports our arousal, there's a nurturing of that. And when we are in the busy pace of life, or perhaps feeling protective because what we're talking about is more about protection and vulnerability. And when we're in the protection, it's easy to kind of overlook the vulnerability. And so we can get into these habits that are protective but don't really offer support for connecting. 

Yeah, well, and I find, like, as you speak about the time, right. And like, the way I work with people, I've developed this Sexual Desire Matrix where I talk about contextual factors like microfactors that affect us, and then the core factors or microfactors. And there are four core factors and six microfactors, so it's like it's 10 different factors that affect our sexual desire. So if we expect it to just work somehow. 

Yes. 

Usually, when we're younger, because of a spontaneous desire, there are more hormonal right effects. That's like, I just feel that sexual desire. It's easy, but then, as we age, the desire becomes more spontaneous, more responsive. And it's not just for women. Right. Because, like, there's like, oh, women have responsive desire. But I know, and I work with a lot of men, with a lot of couples, where for men it's responsive as well. It's like if I don't feel that emotional connection, the older I become, they're like, I don't want to have sex. I actually want to have the emotional connection. So we're both sexes. Yeah.

And we need time and space to actually understand. Yeah. What are the factors that affect me? And I can actually want to. 

I can talk about a couple of factors, but this kind of. It's a complex system. It's not like I'm on or off. Well, I'm sure you know the Dual Control Model, right? That was developed by Kinsey, where we have accelerators and brakes. Right. The factors that actually bring the desire, the factors that create brakes. And we have different sensitivity to them, and there are different factors that affect those brakes and accelerators. So it's so important to. It's such an important part of our life that it's not just, oh, it's not working. We're not even going to look at it. But when we can become a team, we can actually start looking. Okay. The complexity of factors, what do we actually need to know? What do we need to learn? 

And how can we create space for both of us to explore our breaks, our accelerators? What are the factors that are affecting us? 

Oh, my goodness. Yes. I mean, I remember someone saying. Don't know if it was Martha Capui, but she was basically describing the level of complexity when you talk about hormones, our physiology, of, like, if we're well rested and have enough nutrients. And, I mean, there are so many variables that impact our openness to being in our body, to being open to exploring sexual intimacy with our significant other. And it was almost as if, like, how each individual's functioning, the point of which we're both interested in wanting sex at the same time, is like the stars aligning. It would be really difficult to expect that to just happen. And so you talked about just developmental and one stage of life and being younger and then being more mature, and the different kinds of how we might shift from spontaneous to more responsive. I'd love for you to talk about what that is for people who don't know the difference, but also like new relationship energy. Right. “Those beginning stages are so fueled by neurochemicals and all the excitement that can be a fire for erotic energy, but doesn't necessarily sustain. And that we might be able to explore this through your matrix, so that we can start to nurture these different parts that maybe we're not even fully aware of.” 

“Yeah. So that's a lot you said. So the piece with spontaneous desire is like when adjusting its hormones. Like I just humble myself, and I feel like I just, I feel a bit horny. I want to have sex right now.” Yeah. And the response was more in response to something, someone. But the way I teach it is because it's not just that I'm responding to my partner, and I work a lot with women. And I find that 

Like today in the morning, I went for a swim, and I was just on the beach there. And my body, I've trained my body to respond to nature, to beauty, and my body starts to feel more open. So that's. We need to. 

“As we age, we actually need to start training our bodies to respond to and open to receive the input. And then it's like, I can receive it and respond to the thing. And that's one of the core factors.” Yeah. When we're disconnected from our bodies, when we don't have that self-intimacy I call it, when I'm not intimate with myself, and we live in our heads, then our bodies can't respond. So we really need to drop into the bodies and start to train our responsiveness. And then we can respond to our partners, you know, to the kiss, to the look. We can respond to nature, but we need to train that in our bodies. It doesn't just happen by itself. And I know everyone is able to do that. 

And when we start responding to the world, life becomes so much more pleasurable. And we don't start quite often. Right. If I'm working and I'm on my head, I'm a talking head. I'm like at -100 in connection to my body in that pleasure tank. So when we start learning and like, you know, breathing, I've got this beautiful view. Here I'm just looking at the trees, at the sky, and it's like, and my body responds. And if I train that on a daily basis. Right. It's a practice. Then when I'm with my partner, and he just touches me softly, it's like, oh, my body is ready to respond. Been practicing it? 

Yes. So it sounds like you're saying the training. Can you say a little bit more about how one would train their body? Is it the mindfulness practice of being present and observing through sensation, senses, and responding to beauty, to nature, to these types of things? Is that kind of like a muscle, as you're saying, the training, and we build the practice? 

Yes. So, I do like three months, I've got a three-month course where we kind of teach. 

Okay, got it. 

So, it's all of that, and usually it depends on a woman, like what she responds to. But it's breath work, it's really dropping into the body. But the thing is, we can't. And that's another part of my matrix, the sexual desire matrix. Because if we actually had trauma in the past, we don't want to come into the body. We don't want to respond because it doesn't feel like a safe place. So we can't just go right into becoming more responsive. We actually first need to look at the trauma. We need to start to feel safe in the body. Because sometimes, you know, when people work, they go right into sexuality. For me, it's only step four out of my five steps. So there are things we have to take before we drop into sexuality. 

And the second step is actually healing the trauma. And not that we can completely, right, heal it, but we can become more aware of it, and we can develop the capacity to come into the body more and more. We can know it, know our triggers. Right. And actually come back. And then we can start training responsiveness because our system doesn't want to respond. Right. If it doesn't feel safe. And then the other piece is the self-judgment. That's another factor of the matrix is like if I'm judging myself all the time, I can't really come into the body. Yeah. Because I'm out here. So first, I really need to find a place where I can come back inside my body. I'm not judging myself constantly. Yeah. And then I can start being responsive. 

So, can you see how it is? It's all these levels, and it's kind of, it's really difficult when people say, well, you just need to find your desire. Yeah. But if I'm judging myself, if I'm disconnected from my body, if I don't have a voice. Right. Quite often, people come. It's like I can't, like I've got this. It's like I can't say what I want because it's so scary. I'm supposed to unfind my sexual desire. 

Yes, so, yeah. Well, you're really pointing and giving people some scope, it sounds like as to what might be inhibiting some of the feelings. Really responsive just to life and beauty, and for good reason. Whether or not it's trauma or having some stuck place in being able to express, and that there's a process to meet that more compassionately with safety, to give opportunity for a process that gives some healing, and that. That creates more safety in turning inward and feeling in their body. 

Yeah, and also, the big part is that it's nice for people to be aware of. It's like those microfactors. Yeah. Actually, the water we're swimming in. And when I work with people what's quite often, and I work with women and couples, so like. And relate to everyone. Right. But my wing, what they tell me, like for example, religion, right. Affects us so much, and it can be the spiritual beliefs, it can be beautiful, right?

That's one view. But the other view, what if even touching myself or having sex is something dirty and yucky? So that affects us a lot, and we really need to see that this is not me, but it did affect me, and it keeps on affecting me. 

Then the Life stage, as we say. Right. Life stage affects us more than our community, and this kind of. I see a lot of body shaming in our world, and there's a lot over sexualizing, right? Like we sell naked bodies, like half-naked bodies. There's this dichotomy of where it's over sexualized. And at the same time, if you are not the perfect unrealistic shape and size, right? You are not good enough somehow. So we need to understand that it's not just what's inside of me, but actually the water I've been swimming in affects me so deeply. And if I can start seeing it, putting the cow in that water, then it's like, “Oh, it's actually not me. And that's why I find that. And that's why I love group work. 

Because I find we can't do it by ourselves. When we, like, we can talk about it with someone. Right. With other people, that shame kind of drops. Like, “Oh, it's not just me. 

Right. 

It's like. It's just so enlightening for, like, people to see. It's like, oh, it's been the society thing, which affected me so much. It's not just my problem. 

Yes, so through the exploration, being able to identify places perhaps where we feel the block, whether or not it's judgment or some messaging or how we view our bodies, view ourselves sexually, and the various, maybe some level of trauma. And then also, when through the exploration, through your guidance, but also through group work, it begins to be held a little bit more compassionately. But also being able to see, oh, this is something. I'm not alone. Or that feeling really validated that other people feel this way as well. 

Yeah. And the big part that. I do a big process around it in my group. And I find it so important for people to understand that there are things that have been passed down to us generation to generation. Right. This transgenerational trauma and the attitudes and the views. And it's so important to actually do a Genogram. And I do, as part of my course at Genogram, where people really see these relational and sexual attitudes. Yeah. Then you're like, oh, you know, it's just being passed down to me. And then we can say, it ends with me. I'm not willing to pump it further. And then we start to feel more empowered rather than like, I'm doing this, I'm feeling this way, and somehow I don't know how, it's like, ” Oh, it's not me. And I want it to end with me. 

And that's where that real power comes in. And women start to. Because I work with women, right? They start to claim their, like, agency, you know, and then they go like, oh, now I'm curious. What can I create? What do I want to create? 

Can you give an example for people listening that may understand the family tree or the genealogy, mapping that, but how would one do that as it relates to sexuality? 

So it's about talking, right? Talking to our family, talking to our grandparents, our sisters, our brothers, and our uncles. Yeah, whoever. And just finding out, you know, the attitudes, what was happening. Were there betrayals passed down? Right. Perpetual abuse. Yeah. Were there places where there was just no love? Right. And quite often, right. Our grandparents it was quite different from them. Right. It wasn't just love because somehow they had to stay together to survive. And also, if people have no idea, they don't know who to ask. Actually, really going into yourself and like, if I trust myself, what is the feeling I get that's been passed down to me? And you can look at what's been happening in the world at that time, where your parents were living, where your grandparents were living. What were the normal attitudes back then? 

And really kind of, okay, how can I make sense of the kind of sexual relational environment that my grandparents and my parents were living in? And quite often we know a lot. If we start ourselves, we know a lot, and we pick up a lot. And the way I went through that was because I was doing so much work on myself and kind of coming from me, coming from a history of sexual abuse when I was little. And then I was like, I don't want to pass it on to my daughter. Like, when she was, no way I'm going to pass it on to her. And I started to do all this work, and then something would open up, and I would call my mom, and I would say, did that happen? It's like, how did you know? 

And then he would tell me, and it's like, so I know that we can, you know, feel into those places inside. And of course, it's nice if people can tell us, but not possible. And also with that. And that's why I see, like, when we just do it by ourselves, it can become too much and overwhelming. So it's not what I want. It depends on people's capacity. But if people just go out now listening to us, it's like, I'm going to find out what happens, then it can be overwhelming. So it's really important to get the support around that, especially if there were difficulties in the past. And what I do with my groups, we go through such a powerful ritual together where we. All of that. And that's when the shifts can happen. 

Not just like, it gets me down, but actually, we need to create a space somehow to let go of that through ritual, through sharing with other people in whatever way. It's important. 

Yeah, I've never heard of it. I mean, it makes perfect sense that we would want that look on sexuality. And it's often held contextually as such that an individual experiences their sexuality. And it's. It isn't like that. We get a lot of messaging through culture, through family, and then just even through genetics, epigenetics that we're getting passed down. 

Well, you know what I found? I found a lot. If a person now had sexual abuse in their history. Most likely, their grandparents had that as well. And then. And I've done, like, when I did my master's. And I wrote papers on how it was passed down. Like, what is the system? That it's not just like somehow it's passed down, but actually, when a parent is sexually abused, then they don't wanna. It's so painful for them if they haven't processed it. They either become really overprotective, where it's become shaming for the child, or don't even wanna talk about it. And it's that sense of shame around sexuality that is right there. And then the child can become sexually abused because they feel that sense of shame. There's something. They can't really talk about it, and they won't even talk to their parents when it happens. 

Already feel that sense. That parent was already feeling that sense of shame. So I feel like the best piece we can do for our children is actually to really look at all of that. So then it's not passed down because it keeps on being passed down from generation to generation. I don't know, you know, I don't want to really go. 

“The healing, the processing, metabolizing, perhaps the things that oppress, abuse, or injure or have injured our sexual selves, and that it's liberating, if you will.” 

“Like Jessica. Sorry. But the truth is, it doesn't have to be sexual abuse. Right. But if we look at our parents or maybe grandparents, most likely it wasn't like celebrating their sexuality. Most likely, there was some shaming around it.”

“For sure.” 

“Yes. So doesn't have to be a big thing. But we keep on carrying it because sometimes people like, well, I didn't have any big things happen, but it's still like in that water.” It's their sense of shame. It's not quite right. Because imagine if a child grows up, in a way, it's like, you know, it's beautiful. Your sexuality is celebrated appropriately. Right. You have to be of age, and there are rites of passage, and there is respect around it, these boundaries. I mean, it's gonna be a very different relationship from your desire and sexuality. Yes. 

And I think this hearkens back to just being a bit more responsive and thinking of my grandmother, thank goodness. I know some things were not ideal and were problematic and difficult in the family system. However, she. I have visuals of her, like being in the waves and just like, kicking up her, like, rolling around in the waves and, like, giggling and laughing, and she was very embodied and playful, and I think that was something very. 

Special. 

To be able to have had that passed down. Because some people are not as comfortable in their bodies or feel as, I guess, liberated as we're using that word. 

Well, even like, as we talk right now, like, as you talk right now, I can feel it in you. Like, you can feel that it comes through. Yeah. So that's the gift she gave you. 

Yes. And, you know, I think for. If we're speaking about women, particularly stereotypically, when mothers, grandmothers, are very contained in their body or have a lot of control, or when you talk about body size or how they might hold, like, worth as far as beauty and body, I think that models so much for the young ones. If you say, like, the best gift we can give our children is to do our. Our work is to clean some of that up. And I think even just on a body image level or just a relationship with the body, that can also be very transmitted. 

Yeah. And so, like, body image, like, relates to your body is one of the core aspects of my anxiety. It's crucial. 

Because if you're not feeling good and you're feeling shame or not enough in your body, it's going to feel difficult to. 

Like, that's what it is. Yeah. But where we kind of. If I'm not happy about my body, if I'm judging myself, I'm not even in the body. I'm outside. And desire, we actually need to be inside to be responsive. We need to be inside. So what I often like when I teach women it's kind of notice where you are. Are you inside the body? Are you outside? And you need to find a way, practices to actually come inside the body. Because until I come back inside myself, I'm not going to feel any desire. I can't respond. It's not possible. It's like that's why it becomes impossible. And then when we're like, something is broken in me. No, it's not. Nothing is broken in you.

Yes. Or just you have that. 

It's kind of. When I work with couples, the same thing happens for men. Right. It's like, it doesn't matter who we are, but if we can't come back into the body, we're not gonna feel desire. And it's not that desire is broken. It's actually, it's unsafe to come back into the body. It's a very different Thing we need to heal so people can see that actually we're trying to fix the desire. But actually, that's not even the problem. 

Yes, it's almost like building a relationship with the body to create that safety, to then feel and be embodied, to then access desire. 

That's why my step three is actually a relationship with your body. And then we only go into sexuality. Because if I jump over that, how can. I mean, of course, I can feel the desire through, you know, images and imagination, but if I'm not here. 

Yeah, it reminds me this was years and years ago, maybe, I don't know, 13 years ago. My husband and I, I don't know why we did this exercise, but we were breathing back to back and were even meditating. And it was for a few minutes. And I wasn't necessarily feeling anything sexual prior, but then just being embodied and being close to him, I was like, oh, I feel aroused. Like, it's just this sense of being in the body and just giving space for that presencing. So I can think of many moments where I think it's just a big step, you know, for anyone who's feeling stress or, as you said, kind of in the head or disembodied, to then just go right to arousal and desire, sexual contact. 

When I mean, some people can do it, but sometimes it's too big a step, and so on. 

And people start to think it's all impossible, and something has broken me. I lost my desire. No, 

And another you just mentioned, right, the big pieces. And I call it resonance. Finding the resonance. Yeah. When. And that's just. And when I teach, I do this exercise when you sit back-to-back with a partner, and you breathe, and you feel into each other because one part is you coming into the body, but the other one you actually start to find between each other. And that's where EFT works so well. Because if I feel disconnected, and that's what, like, couples come to me with low sexual desire. And then I say, how's your relationship? I know we're not talking to each other, wagging all the time. 

I was like, 

if we don't feel safe with our partner, of course, our bodies shut down because it's not safe. So we need safety, we need adventure, we need both. But when safety and connection are missing, we need to actually have some therapy or find a way to actually emotionally connect to the partner, and then our desire will start to show up. So that's another piece of the matrix where that resonance is so important. 

Yes, I can see that. Both from an emotional place, but also allowing the bodies to be present and have that resonance physically. 

Yeah. The nervous system relaxes, and then we can start. Right. Feeling into each other, and that's when that responsiveness happens. Just the message, I guess. I'd love to. If your relationship is not in a good place, don't think your desire. And people say that, and I sometimes get confused. Like, how do you even expect yourself to want sex with someone who you feel so distant from? That's just, you know. 

Yes, well, you've mentioned your matrix, and it sounds like you have a whole process that you help people engage with to explore these principles, which is there for people listening here today. “Do you want to describe the matrix, or do you have something where people can access that?”

“So it's a big thing, the matrix here. Like I've got a five-hour training on that.” 

“Okay.” 

“Yeah, so I've got the training that I can. I've also developed a Sexual Desire Quiz. So I can chant. That's a free resource where people can, just as a first step, to understand what I like, because that's, it's so important.” And in the quiz, and then we can link it, people can just answer some questions, and then it's like, oh, this is my time. Right. I've got like if you're an adventurer, right. If you're an. If you're a nurturer. We need different things to find the desire, so people can do the quiz and just see. And then at the back of it, if they want to go deeper, then there's a sexual desire matrix training where they can look at what is actually blocking their desire as well. 

Okay. 

And that's how I put the dual control model, and I put the sexual desire matrix kind of on top of it. Like I'm. So it's like what stops us and what opens us. And all the factors can be either breaks or, so, really understanding them. 

“So it sounds like your big message is to not label when there's a mismatch of desire, or it seems as though an intimate relationship desire and sexual intimacy wane. To not label that as a problem, to look at it as an invitation to explore what the factors are, and can we be interested in what's the break, what's the gas like, what's the turn on, what's the stops, and all the different factors that play a role in us being safe in our body, safe to resonate with our significant other. And that's the. That's the work. That's the invitation.”

“That's the invitation. Yes. But I think desires really are the problem. I mean, that's how it shows up. Yes. It's so much more underneath. And actually, what's underneath is much easier in a way once you understand it. It's much easier to deal with.” 

Yes. 

I would start to feel more empowered. But actually, yeah, okay, now I know what it is. I can deal with it. But everyone's like, I just have a flawed design. That's the end of it. It's like, what do I do with it? And I was like, how do I bring? Like, I can't. Yeah. 

So can you give people? Just for people listening who might want to have access to a step or an example. One thing that might be helpful is could you give some language if people have been stuck in this criticizing or blaming or seeing their sexual intimacy from this problem lens, how might they approach this with their significant other? And can you give that more along the lines of what you're inviting, and maybe some language to support them around what this could sound like? 

Yeah. So the first step, I really feel, is really feeling that I want to have that sexual intimacy. It's an important piece, and I can see that it's been missing. And that I want to have it for us, so that we can actually do this together? And I really want to support you. Right. And support us to find that place where together we can create that intimacy that we have never experienced before. And that's the opportunity, really stepping into the opportunity. Because I and I found it again and again after kind of becoming. We become old after 40. We have such potential for this. And I call it heart-melting intimacy. Like, 

We never had this opportunity when we were younger. It's only when we become older that we can experience it. 

So if you can really, as a listener, step into that place, it's like, okay, there's something I really want to experience with you. Yeah. 

So speaking to the desire, how important it is, how much like the longing and the need to kind of like attachment need or the sexual intimacy need. Can you give people a little bit more context to how come that's more available? I think I have a sense of what you mean by the heart-melting intimacy that's more available as one develops. 

Because the big piece is intimacy with the self. When I know myself so much better, and I'm not driven by my hormones. And there's so much more depth to me. Like, as we grow, right, I've got more experience, there's so much more depth to me. I can actually open up and open up more and more. And I believe

We are more loving, there's more depth to us. And we become more able to kind of. Of opening and stepping into that vulnerability more and more. And I don't know, but when I was 20, it was like there was no way I'd be saying any of this now, right? I was just. 

And I used to be a chat accountant, and I was just so, like, you know, in my body. And it was really difficult to actually let people inside myself. And I find the older we become, the more capacity we have to hold our emotions, so we can be more open, we can create more depth. And we start to want to have that soul connection rather than just that physical, and creating kids and running a family together. Especially when kids start growing up, like, what am I doing now with my life? And we start to have these big questions, more existential questions. And if we go from that place, we can create this amazing, deep intimacy with each other that goes beyond physical sex. Right. It's like for me, the experience is like we're making love, physically making love in our bodies. 

And it's like the whole body starts to vibrate, and it's just such a beautiful, deep experience. But I know it depends on my capacity to let my partner really see me, like fully in that really deep, vulnerable state with whatever emotions I'm having. Anger, grief, sadness, joy. And we, as we grow older, develop that capacity to feel more, to hold our emotions rather than just push them away, and like. Like, put them in a box. 

Yes. Thank you. And as we started talking about a mismatch in the relationship with this exploratory process around what perhaps gets in the way of feeling safe in the body, safe relationally. The judgments, the traumas, various. To be able to explore that and build a relationship with the body, and have more capacity for sexual intimacy and vulnerability. How can you give some examples around what the relationship, the partnership, is where one has a stronger desire, and one's more low desire. What can you paint a picture around that can look like using these principles, or having a different relational cycle or intimacy cycle? 

Well, it all comes back to kind of what turns me on. Right. And actually finding out what turns me on and understanding what turns me off and creating circumstances, which is very specific. So I can't really. It's not this thing that fits everyone. 

Sure, sure. 

But it's really very specific to what it is that you need. And it's gonna look different for everyone. It's like when I talk about this, one of the blueprints is erotic chemist. Right. And it's more about the fact that I need to have that connection to the spirit. I need to have a ritual around it. I need candles and music. But it needs to be through sex. We connect to something bigger than us. Physical reality. And when we can together create that experience where we step into something bigger than us, connecting to something. Yeah. Then the desire appears. Yes. So symbol. 

So help me. Maybe I'm getting it that the actual way in which partners are cultivating more safety and more specificity for the desire, like nurturing what a turn on that can get cultivated. So perhaps as a couple, instead of avoiding or not being as interested and one being more interested in pursuing, and the kind of disconnect around that, together they're partnering and allies for desire. That for both people's desire and that really attending to that, then there can be an experience of a more sexual connection. 

Yeah. So it depends. Right. Both partners are different. Right. And when we. Okay, this is even if you're a low desired partner, but if you create an experience where you take agencies, like this is what I want. And then the lower desire partner comes in, I want to have that experience. And then we can create an experience for the strong desire partner. Right. Like it doesn't matter what kind of where you're at. But if we create an experience, and you're like, oh, I really want to experience that. So then the person steps in, and they want to be there. 

Yes. 

You drop out of that dynamic. You know, I'm running away, and I'm pursuing you. You. Because if we create an experience that you really want to have, of course, you're going to be there. Right. You're going to come to the party. 

Yes. 

Quite often, that's what happens with lower desire partners. It's like, I'm not enjoying the sex we're having. 

Yes. 

Yeah. And. But also, the other piece is that quite often. And it does happen to women more than they feel like sex. I'm giving it something. I'm already tired, I don't want to do it. And I'm giving it. So. And that's quite often the nurturer blueprint. What if I create sex that actually nurtures me, where I can receive? It's not something I give, but actually, I can receive through that. And then. Oh, if sex is nurturing me, then of course I want to come to the party. I want to be there. 

Yes. 

Really depends on where we're at, what we need, and if. Then we want to be there. And maybe just one last piece. If I can say yes, please. The biggest, I don't know, stress for people, and that's what I'd love them to take away from the sex, is that 

“If we start to believe orgasm is the goal, it's stressful; it's performance. We need to get somewhere. It's not an experience of being together.” 

And if we can just remove that, then both partners are more willing to actually step in and be there together. Because it's about connection and pleasure. 

And that gives, I think, probably more motivation for so much more. That's on the. I was going to say on the table or up for offer around what can be cultivated. 

Right. 

It's not just the orgasm, but that there's so much opportunity for different experiences of pleasure and connection that are of interest. 

Yeah, then and then it's like, well, I do have a desire for connection. Quite often, low desire partners, as they do, want intimacy; they want connection. Absolutely. Or just even that low, strong desire is a bit of the definition of it. Yeah. Makes it more dysfunctional rather than. Actually, it's not what I want here. I don't want it. I don't have a desire for it. Like, you know. Huh? Yes, it makes a lot of sense. I was so hungry, and I walked into a cafe, and it's all like this, sweet, like baked things. And I was like, I don't want that. Even though I was hungry, I didn't want it. I didn't have it. 

Yes, it's a completely different mindset around what's happening, what's possible, and how to approach this. Is there anything else you want to speak to that we didn't get to before we transitioned to how people can get in touch with your work? 

I just think of becoming a team, become a team. Find a way to become teammates and explore. Most probably, it's not working yet because you haven't had time to explore and go deeper and be curious. And if you are enemies and you fight with each other around it, that's you're not going to go and explore. It's not kind of safe, even. Right. But become teammates and have fun with that. 

Yes,  wonderful. Well, it sounds like you have a plethora of resources and curriculum. Where would you like to direct people towards that might be interested? 

I think the sexual desire quiz I think that's the best. So you find your sexual desire blueprint, and then you can start playing with it, whatever comes. Because when you do the quiz, you're going to see what you need, and with your partner, they can do the quiz, and you can chat with each other and see how we can create an environment where we can explore that. Yeah, I think that'll be the best. And then knowing if you want to go deeper, you can go into actually what stops, what turns me off, and do the five-hour trainings, which is. Yeah. Quite enlightening. 

Is that in the group format or the five hours? Is that self-study or? 

Stop. It's a self-study. 

Yeah. 

So they can get it right away. But yeah, start with the Sexual Desire Quiz. So you can really find your blueprint and start creating, and maybe even. Yeah. Start imagining what it would be like if I wanted to have sex. What would that sex look like? 

Yes, it's creating a whole new dynamic that is appealing for both. Okay, I'll make sure to have the link to that quiz on today's show notes. Is there anything else you want to point people towards? That's the main. 

I think I'll leave that as the main. I've got other things that come to my website. www.sexualempowermentforwomen.com That's mostly for women, if. Yeah, if they want to explore. There are lots of resources there. I've got webinars for couples for women. Yeah. Lots of different things. But I think the quiz would be a good one. radiantwoman.xperiencify.io/tarishatourokbody/mini-course/ 

Yeah, wonderful, I'll put the link to your website as well as the link to the quiz. Thank you so much for all that you've shared and just what you're supporting people in and cultivating. 

Yeah, thank you. And Jessica, it's so nice to share with you. Really, what I enjoyed about you is that you really make sense out of it, and I think that really helps people to. Yes, thank you for making sense of me.